It is said that Hurin was the mightiest ever amongst men. Who was the mightiest elf?

[Feanor]

I think it was Fingolfin but am not sure.
I mean mightiest in the sense of 'warrior-like'.

[Curufinwe]

Feanor was very beserker like because he went off without his army to battle some balrog's now thats pretty warrior like to me.

[Feanor]

d MELKOR, the mightiest being in all Arda. On his home turf!
Also, the book mentions Feanor having the greatest knowledge and skill of the 3 sons of Finwe, but that to Fingolfin was given strength and prowess in battle.

[Curufinwe]

I still believe it was Feanor though for he was a maniac in battle although he didnt have as much prowess or strength as fingolfin he still was the best. Dont forget he died to a pack of balrog's lead by mothgog and to stand up to them would of been pretty hard.

[Feanor]

I still think Morgoth is mightier than a group of Balrogs

[Atticus]

That could be true, Feanor, and maybe not. It is just that Morgoth had bent their wills to his. It is not as if we would see such a battle. If I remember correctly, Ungoliant hurt Morgoth pretty bad, trying to devour the Simarils.

As for the mightiest elven warrior, that is diffulcult, and I have not read the Silmarillion in a while. I would say the sons of Feanor for all the havok they wreaked, But Fingolfin did kick lots of tail, so Fingolfin it is.

[Feanor]

Yes, Melkor did bend the balrogs' wills to serve him but that is itself an example of his power. Also, when Melkor allied with Ungoliant he gave her some of his power and also used some strength to create the unlight which they used to escape Valinor. So this tired Melkor somewhat, while the consumption of the Trees and gems of Valinor only stregthened Ungoliant.
In a straight 1-1 Melkor would've kicked Ungoliant's a--, er, her thorax?

So now I'm wondering, could Hurin take on Fingolfin?


If you've ever wrestled someone you know that it is not only might or strength of heart that wins but HOW you apply that strength. This takes SKILL and practice. It is this SKILL that Fingolfin had more of than Feanor.
Tulcas would be mightiest in this respect, even Melkor was afraid of him.

[Eonwe]

agree with Mr. Feanor. Skill is what Fingolfin had. So greatest elf I would pick him. And I think in some cases (Beren against the sons of Feanor) a Man could beat an elf. But I think probably Fingolfin would have beaten Hurin. His son could not beat Sauron, could Fingolfin have beat Sauron?

[Curufinwe]

Could we agree on the sons of Finwe then where the greatest warriors among elves?

[BelDain]

What about Gil-galad?

[Feanor]

Gil-galad is of the house of Fingolfin.

Also, it was Finrod Felagund (not a son of Fingolfin-rather,his nephew) who succumbed to Sauron (actually a werewolf serving under Sauron) and this was without any weapon too!

I think Hurin could've taken on ANY elf. He did survive 28 years of torment in Angband remember.

[Curufinwe]

All Elves from the house a Finwe are the best.

[gil-estel]

Could that be because we only ever get told about the House of Finwe

[Curufinwe]

Because all the other ones were pathetic compared to the house of Finwe

[Eonwe]

Ah yes Feanor! I stand corrected (duh)! Finrod was brother to Galadriel son of Finarfin (man that Finarfin was prolific).

House of Finwe is pretty big. Let's just settle on Fingolfin the mighty mighty.:D

[Feanor]

we were never told of the vanyar, bc they never really fought. I would think that they were NOT great fighters only bc that is not where their interests lay.

[Curufinwe]

Still the house of Finwe were of the greatest elves ever.

[Eonwe]

hang on! I think the Vanyar fought in the War of Wrath with me on their side (lucky I was there).

BTW speaking of Earendil, how do you fight a huge black dragon Ancalagon in a big boat that flies in the sky, and slay him? I am "suspending my disbelief" as in my college Shakespeare class...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Grond on another similar thread
Let me tell you Thorin! Fingolfin was absolutely the most awesome elf/king/warrior/bad-ass that this hammer has ever seen. Riding up and pounding on the door of Angband itself, screaming for my boss to come out. Man, was Mel scared that day. He realized that Fin had already come the whole way kickin' butt... no one could stop him. He was hiding under his throne, when he realized everyone was watching him. He pretended he was looking for a penny that he dropped and kind of said "Well, I guess I'll have to go deal with this little interuption." Let me tell you though, he was nearly wettin' his britches.

Then my master crept up from his pit, where Fingolfin berated him with craven words. Fingolfin's hair billowed in the wind, his sword Ringil glittered as it was drawn, and his blue shield sparkled in the sun. My master struck at him, but he jumped aside... I gouged a huge pit in the earth. Again and again and again, I was wielded and smote into empty earth and each time Fingolfin countered my master's stroke with a wounding strike. Seven times did Melkor strike and miss and seven times Fingolfin countered with a strike that brought black blood from my master.

At the last, Fingolfin tired and Melkor bore down upon him. My master trapped Fingolfin under his mighty foot and began to crush him. With his last dying strength, Fingolfin hewed at my master and smote him on the foot with Ringil. A gaping wound from which Melkor never recovered. He was wont to limp on that leg ever after. A daily reminder of the truest and greatest elf lord of all ages of Middle Earth.

At least that's how I see it... and I was there!
I still can't put it any better that that.

[Feanor]

Yes, I agree, the mightiest elf. But mightier than Hurin? I think that would be a v close fight. Remember Hurin's last stand- such valour and bravery is seldom seen.
Even his son, Turin, was able to stand his ground agst TWO of the sons of Feanor!

[Grond]

Fingolfin - to the gates of Angband killing everything in sight and fighting Melkor/Morgoth in hand to hand combat.

Hurin - held captive by Morgoth for many years...never faced him because he wasn't powerful enough.

At least that IMHO.:)

[Feanor]

whoa whoa! Hurin was up agst the entire might of Morgoth's army- fully armed and fully mobilised. Even then it took literally hundreds of them to capture him.

When Fingolfin rode up to Angband, he took the initiative. The enemies were not expecting him. Therefore they were not ready, and many got out of his way rather than confront him.

I don't think you can conclude from this whether Fin or Hurin was more mighty but you cannot simply 'write off' Hurin.

[Dol Amroth]

I can't believe you're even considering whether Fingolfin could take Hurin! Of course he could!!! He fought Morgoth and nearly won!! The way I see it, they could have saved a lot of time and effort if Fingolfin had just taken some of his mates with him when he went!! A little support at the crucial moment and they wouldn't have had to bother the Valar at all.
And I can't help thinging that no matter how many enemies were lined up against him, Fingolfin would never have been taken alive!

[Grond]

Originally posted by Feanor
whoa whoa! Hurin was up agst the entire might of Morgoth's army- fully armed and fully mobilised. Even then it took literally hundreds of them to capture him.

When Fingolfin rode up to Angband, he took the initiative. The enemies were not expecting him. Therefore they were not ready, and many got out of his way rather than confront him.

I don't think you can conclude from this whether Fin or Hurin was more mighty but you cannot simply 'write off' Hurin.

Feanor, we will just have to disagree on this one. I suggest you read the account of Fingolfin's ride. There were plenty of Melkor's brood along the way but such was the rage of Fingolfin that they actually flew from him rather than face him. Morgoth himself cringed in his Vala-hole. He was scared s**tless but accepted Fingolfin's challenge to save face. And, I'll tell you that if a Vala could be killed, Melkor would have died that day. Melkor was struck 8 times. Seven wounds to the body and a crippling blow to the foot. But, alas an elf does tire and eventually he was worn down by a Vala who does not know weariness.

But, I have answered the question of this post. It was not, "Was Hurin the strongest of all the races?" It was "...Who was the Mightiest Elf?" and there is no doubt that was Fingolfin.

[Orome]

That was an interesting thought about what would have happened if Fingolfin had fought Sauron. Would the pits created that caused Fingolfin stumble not have been a problem against Sauron? Grond would not have been there. If even having to ponder for a second who would have one then there may be an answer. None other would I think that about so readily possible including even mighty Hurin. Fingolfin's is the one battle that none on the side of the "victors" would recount openly because they found it so embarrassing that one of the children of Eru could give such problems to the greatest fallen one. In the end is was not even Grond but the lack of any possible footing and fatigue which ended Fingolfin. Fingolfin or Hurin? Fingolfin had extra umph from having within the light of having been around the trees and was the mightiest of all who had seen them. Some debate about the Hurin or Fingolfin could go on, but not many could have left Morgoth trembling at having his name called. For elves only, definitely Fingolfin.

[Flame of Utumno]

Yes, I would have to agree that Fingolfin is clearly the mightiest Elf in terms of hand to hand combat.
(I also have great admiration for any Elves that risked death, for a good cause because for an Elf the price of being slain is greater than for a man to die in battle - since all men die eventually.)

Outside of military and hand to hand combat, I would say the greatest Elf was Galadriel. She was one of the eldest and wisest (being born in the Bliss of Valinor and being taught by Melian the Maia in Wisdom). She revolted with the rest of the Noldor then during her exile performed great deeds, resisted the temptation of the ring and constantly did good deeds by fighting Sauron and helping the Ring Fellowship, thus redeeming herself.
Most of all she was able to keep herself alive all those ages and returned as a hero to Valinor at the end of the Third Age. She was a great success story all round.

[Feanor]

That's an interesting point about Galadriel. Yes she did 'revolt' to the extent that she left Aman agst the counsel of the Valar but she did NOT take the Oath and therefore was not under the curse of Mandos. She was also not part of the kinslaying.
None of the house of Finarfin was, that's why they were allowed into Doriath.
So I don't think you could really say she was in need of redemption.

[gil-estel]

Galadriel was under the Doom of Mandos because she left Valinor during the time of the revolt.Also she desired to go to ME and rule her own Kingdom.

In the Unfinished Tales it is stated that she was allowed to return because of the Sterling service she'd done against Sauron and also because once she'd finally tasted the power of ME, she didn't want it and it was ny this rejection more than anything else which allowed her to return

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by gil-estel
Galadriel was under the Doom of Mandos because she left Valinor during the time of the revolt.Also she desired to go to ME and rule her own Kingdom.

In the Unfinished Tales it is stated that she was allowed to return because of the Sterling service she'd done against Sauron and also because once she'd finally tasted the power of ME, she didn't want it and it was ny this rejection more than anything else which allowed her to return

I think Galadriel did more than "taste" power, gil......she hung out in ME for over 6,000 years. :) Do you mean her rejection of the Ring as "tasting the power of ME"? I also seem to remember reading somewhere (?) that she was too proud (or embarassed??) to return after the fall of Morgoth.

[gil-estel]

yeh i think it was in unfinished tales, or the letters. But i know what u mean-she did taste power and seemed quite hungry for a long while...(if u catch my drift)

[Grond]

I'm not sure about Galadriel's motivations. It was clear that when Feanor cursed Morgoth before the Valar and made his Oath that a flame was kindled in many of the other Noldor including Galdriel and her brothers to depart Aman and go to Middle-earth. Tis true that they took not the oath, but they were bound under the Curse of Mandos none the less as were all who left Aman with Feanor.

That they were under the Curse is clearly stated in the Silmarillion, Chapter 15, Of the Noldor in Beleriand, where the author makes the following statement, "Then the sons of Finarfin departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the words of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Feanor cold escape from the shadow that lay upon his house."

[Tar-Elenion]

The greatest Elf was Luthien Tinuviel.

[nyriel]

For me, the mightiest elves are Luthien (smashing maid!) and Fingolfin

Nyriel An Uinen

--...smells like elves, (indeed!)...-

[baraka]

The mightiest elf in body and mind was Feanor. I think that is said in the Sil. His brother Fingolfin was a great warrior but he didn´t have the passion that Feanor had. l don´t think that Fingolfin loved his father more than Feanor and would have gone to ME to avenge his father´s death as Feanor.

Feanor would have battled Morgoth to the death also.

[Snaga]

I have to say was totally awestruck by Feanor going up against a whole gang of Balrogs. I mean, he is Eldar, they are Maia, he is one they are many.

But I will accept the panels verdict on Fingolfin.

Both were rash. Reading Sil you get the impression that the Elves were only wise by the end of the 3rd age because they'd had 5000 years to think things over!

I also want to say that the sons of Feanor are useless, the most unworthy sons of a great father. What did any of them achieve? You can get over them being proud and willful, but they were gutless. They never went up against Morgoth seriously. They made an oath, and only ever did anything about it once someone else took the initiative.

[Feanor]

Without the house of Feanor you would've had no Silmarils and no rings of power, hence no Silmarillion and no LoTR.

You guys would be just discussing Tbhe Hobbit right now! :)

[Mormegil]

We wouldn't be discussing the Hobbit because that story also relies on the rings of power. If Bilbo hadn't found the One Ring then he wouldn't have been able to rescue the dwarfs from the elves in Mirkwood. Meaning that it would be a pointless story about some dwarfs going off to be captured by elves, which would be pointless and not worth talking about.

[Snaga]

Feanor created the Silmarils and hats off to him. Also he was as good as his word. He said he was going after Morgoth to reclaim them and he went for it. Only a whole heap of Balrogs stopped him. Puts Gandalf in the shade really!

But his sons did squat.

Now if you're telling me that I should respect them because Celebrimbor forged the rings of power I can't agree!

(1) Celebrimbor was a grandson and not a son so he doesn't count really. So his dad managed to reproduce... not a point to distinguish him from billions of other life forms.

(2) Celebrimbor rejected his father and uncles and stayed in Nargothrond when they were kicked out.

(3) Are we really saying welcoming Sauron to Eregion against the counsel of Elrond and Gil-galad, and being duped is just a cool thing. Ok fair point, good for the story ... but Wormtongue was good for the story!!

Come on - let's hear someone say something good about them that will stand up in court!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Feanor
Yes, Melkor did bend the balrogs' wills to serve him but that is itself an example of his power. Also, when Melkor allied with Ungoliant he gave her some of his power and also used some strength to create the unlight which they used to escape Valinor. So this tired Melkor somewhat, while the consumption of the Trees and gems of Valinor only stregthened Ungoliant.
In a straight 1-1 Melkor would've kicked Ungoliant's a--, er, her thorax?

So now I'm wondering, could Hurin take on Fingolfin?


If you've ever wrestled someone you know that it is not only might or strength of heart that wins but HOW you apply that strength. This takes SKILL and practice. It is this SKILL that Fingolfin had more of than Feanor.
Tulcas would be mightiest in this respect, even Melkor was afraid of him.

Yo im new to the board and want to ask you how you think Turin Turambar aka Mormegil Blacksword would go against Fingolfin. Turin has to fight Melkor at the end of the world and kill him. Fingolfin could only wound him. I think with the helm of Dor- Lomin Turin would have the upper hand. What do yáll think?

[Grond]

The Last Battle is a legend in which Turin is supposed to vanquish Melkor aka it hasn't happened. The only non-Valar entity to tie in physically with the Melkor-meister is Fingolfin and he whipped Melkor's butt pretty well until he tired. (It's hard to match the stamina of a god, ain't it). So, until the Daegorlad is fought, I'll give my vote to Fingolfin, after all, I never even came close to hitting him. It was swing and miss, swing and miss, swing and miss. Well, you get the picture.:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
The Last Battle is a legend in which Turin is supposed to vanquish Melkor aka it hasn't happened. The only non-Valar entity to tie in physically with the Melkor-meister is Fingolfin and he whipped Melkor's butt pretty well until he tired. (It's hard to match the stamina of a god, ain't it). So, until the Daegorlad is fought, I'll give my vote to Fingolfin, after all, I never even came close to hitting him. It was swing and miss, swing and miss, swing and miss. Well, you get the picture.:)

What about huan the hound of valinor do you think he could beat morgoth? And i respect your opinion about fingolfin but i still think Turin could beat him because although it has not happened Turamabar steps up a level in the greatest battle ever and destroys a god (bauglir) shall he not have to havemore stamina then melkor himself. Im not dissing Fingolfin or anything he was a mightiest elf king to live but he couldn't beat melkor and turin can.

[Grond]

Beleg, all I'm saying is that in the Histories of Middle-earth, the last battle hasn't been fought while Fingolfin's has. The prophecy you speak of hasn't occurred so one can't determine if it is a 'true' prophecy. The author's own words tell us that Fingolfin perished in hand to hand combat with Melkor. It takes much more courage and innate greatness to actually face a god than it does to say that someone is "supposed" to beat Melkor at "some" later date.

That's all I'm saying. If the "Last Battle" occurs and Turin destroys Melkor, I will fully concur with your opinion and scream to the far corners of the world, "Turin is the greatest of the great". Until then, Fingolfin gets my vote.

As for Huan, he was one of my favorite characters in the Sil; however he was killed by Carcharoth, the greatest werewolf to ever live but a mere werewolf none the less. That would bring Huan down severl rungs on the WWF power rating system in my book.;)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
Beleg, all I'm saying is that in the Histories of Middle-earth, the last battle hasn't been fought while Fingolfin's has. The prophecy you speak of hasn't occurred so one can't determine if it is a 'true' prophecy. The author's own words tell us that Fingolfin perished in hand to hand combat with Melkor. It takes much more courage and innate greatness to actually face a god than it does to say that someone is "supposed" to be Melkor at "some" later date.

That's all I'm saying. If the "Last Battle" occurs and Turin destroys Melkor, I will fully concur with your opinion and scream to the far corners of the world, "Turin is the greatest or the great". Until then, Fingolfin gets my vote.

As for Huan, he was one of my favorite characters in the Sil; however he was killed by Carcharoth, the greatest werewolf to ever live but a mere werewolf none the less. That would bring Huan down severl rungs on the WWF power rating system in my book.;)



Yes Grond i see what you mean even if it did happen (theprophercy) Fingolfin would still give Turin a run for his money. ;)

[TulKas Astaldo]

Personally I think Turin was stronger than Hurin... But you never know.

Obviously Tulkas was the mightiest of beings save Illuvatar... But I think he's probably (or rather almost certainly) lose to Osse, who is the strongest swimmer, if they fought in water...

Anyway though, I'd say it's either Fingolfin or Maedhros. We all remember Maedhros fighting into the circle of Balrogs and sending them flying just before Feanor was killed? Then of course having his hand cut off and still owning Orcs real good...

But IMO, Turin could have beaten ANYTHING in fair 1v1 combat... He killed Glaurung, the greatest of Dragons, save perhaps the Winged Dragons such as Ankylagon.

[Mormegil]

Turin Rules, he could have taken on Feanor and Fingolfin at the same time and whipped both their asses.
The only person who could kill Turin was himself, with his own sword.

[Grond]

Mormegil, we've already been through thisl on another thread.
originally posted by Grond on another thread
Mormegil, I don't look at you and despair, I look at you with despair. Never has there been a more tragic character in all of Middle Earth than Turin Turambar. Quoting Glaurung (my buddy), "Evil have been all thy ways, son of Hurin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin....." Other than these few shortcomings.... I love you man!...
:D

[TulKas Astaldo]

Beren was pretty cool too though... But he wasn't that strong...

Btw, sp on Ankylagon or whatever from before... Anybody know how it's spelt?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I have to say was totally awestruck by Feanor going up against a whole gang of Balrogs. I mean, he is Eldar, they are Maia, he is one they are many.

But I will accept the panels verdict on Fingolfin.

Both were rash. Reading Sil you get the impression that the Elves were only wise by the end of the 3rd age because they'd had 5000 years to think things over!

I also want to say that the sons of Feanor are useless, the most unworthy sons of a great father. What did any of them achieve? You can get over them being proud and willful, but they were gutless. They never went up against Morgoth seriously. They made an oath, and only ever did anything about it once someone else took the initiative.



Yo Feanor would have been a handful in his rage do you think he could beat Fingolfin if he stole the Silmarils 1 0n 1? I do.

[Feanor]

Some points of info are up for debate, others aren't where the book clearly states something. HURIN WAS THE MIGHTIEST EVER AMONG MEN. This is not my opinion, its straight from the book.

Turin may have seemed stronger and done more but that is only bc he wasn't tortured by Morgoth for half his life and bc he had quite a sharp sword.
-----------------------------
Of the 3 sons of Finwe it is said that Finarfin was the fairest, Feanor was gifted most in skill and intelligence, Fingolfin had the most skill in battle.

How the elves compared to the men of old in combat is not clearly stated, however Beren did put up a fight against 2 of the sons of Feanor and held his own.

[Tyaronumen]

It depends on what you mean by mighty, really...

Fingolfin was clearly the mightiest elf when it came to the exercise of arms... some might argue that Feanor and his little bit with the Balrogs was tough, but it's really a bit ridiculous to too seriously compare the Balrogs with Morgoth Bauglir whose native power was greater than that of any of the other Ainur.

Feanor was clearly the mightiest elf when it came to the fire of his spirit, the will of his being. He was also the greatest of the Eldalie when it came to craftsmanship.

Ingwe is said to have been the most majestic of the elves, while Galadriel is insinuated to have been the most fair among them and the most gifted save Feanor.

[Mormegil]

What about Dior?
Didn't he manage to kill 3 of the son's of Feanor before he died. That must have been a pretty mighty thing to do.

Not sure if he counts as an elf though.

[Lord Melkor]

It isn`t written that Dior killed three sons of Feanor all by himself but that they perished during the battle. However I assume that Dior, being son of Luthien and Beren, could be more than a match for any son of Faenor besides Maedhros, so he propably killed at least one.

And isn`t it stated in Silmarillion that Feanor was the mightiest of Eldar? Let`s see: he invented writing, was the greatest craftsmen ever, besides maybe Aule, was the most charismatic among Eldar and one with the greatest spirit, not to mention he was a mighty warrior, while not as great as Fingolfin, but propably on par with Maedhros and Fingon in terms of skill.

[baraka]

It really pisses me off when it is said that Fingolfin is better in a fight than Feanaro. You can´t substitute the passion that Feanaro had in all the things he made or fought.
He had the will to go against the valar, what would Fingolfin had done, would he have gone against the valar and follow Melko or just stay in Valinor and do nothing as Manwe said.

Feanor rules

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by baraka
It really pisses me off when it is said that Fingolfin is better in a fight than Feanaro. You can´t substitute the passion that Feanaro had in all the things he made or fought.
He had the will to go against the valar, what would Fingolfin had done, would he have gone against the valar and follow Melko or just stay in Valinor and do nothing as Manwe said.

Feanor rules

I can hardly understand your admiration for the hubris and assinine behavior of Feanor.

Feanor couldn't even handle fighting Gothmog -- a Balrog (slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain, who was obviously more suited to fighting Balrog's than Feanor), while Fingolfin fought and permanently wounded THE MOST POWERFUL BEING OTHER THAN ILUVATAR.

Your admiration for Feanor (who is best described using words that are inappropriate for public forums) is mind boggling in my humble opinion. I have no sympathy for those who are willful and disobedient in the face of what is right, I am afraid.

[Feanor]

Actually, Feanor didn't invent writing but improved upon it so that the actual writing of the High Speech was of Feanor's design but the original was another of the Noldor.

The original intent of my question was mightiest with respect to fighting/combat/arms. In this I believe Tulcas would've taken on Melkor in a straight 1-1.

In a fight, to win, it takes passion AS WELL AS skill. Look at boxing. I don't care how much you want to win, if your skill isn't there you'll go down. So in this context I think Fing had the edge over Feanor. Feanor is kind of like Mike Tyson-- sometimes a bit too crazy! Fing would be more like M.Ali.

[Grond]

I just have a problem with Feanor being considered the greatest or the mightiest of anything. He betrayed the Valar by going to war on Melkor. When the Elves of Aqualonde wouldn't give him passage, he killed his own people. He then forsook Fingolfin and Galadriel and their people to the doom of Helcaraxe and the Ice Hills, where many of his own people perished.

Pride, arrogance and conceit were the essence of Feanor and though his soul was the most intense of the Eldar so was his ego. Feanor for Elves and Turin for Man. The two greatest losers of Middle-earth.

[Mormegil]

Grond,
Turin was not a loser.
He did his best to fight the evils of Morgoth. It's just not easy when you have a curse upon you. It wasn't Turins fault that his father managed to pi$$ Morgoth off so much.


Feanor on the other hand, now he was a loser, did he think that just be bringing a host of elves to ME, that Morgoth was gonna quake in his boots and give the Silmarils back to him. I think not.
Feanor was a psycho, he believed himself to be invincible, which he quite obviously was not.

[Feanor]

>I just have a problem with Feanor being considered the greatest or the mightiest of anything.

I WAS the greatest in skill.

>He betrayed the Valar by going to war on Melkor.

BETRAYED?! They betrayed me and all the free peoples of ME by NOT going to war agst Morgoth, black enemy of the world. It was their fault he was loose and therefore their responsibility. If they were too gutless to go after him the LEAST they could have done was to assist me. Heartless cowards!

And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.

>When the Elves of Aqualonde wouldn't give him passage, he killed his own people.

Cowardly fools who would betray their own kin! They were brainwashed by some devilry of the Vala. They deserved to die!


>He then forsook Fingolfin and Galadriel and their people to the doom of Helcaraxe and the Ice Hills, where many of his own people perished.

I would have come back and gotten them... right after I obtained the silmarils.


>Pride, arrogance and conceit were the essence of Feanor and though his soul was the most intense of the Eldar so was his ego.
Feanor for Elves and Turin for Man. The two greatest losers of Middle-earth.

Mighty words. Mighty words indeed. And from what? A 'tool of the underworld'? Methinks that when your master placed MY gems upon his crown that he forgot about you and left you in some dark, dusty corner. Indeed your body would have broken itself upon the silmarils had it tried to break them. You cannot bear that thought. It eats away at you.
Is this not the reason for your contempt of me?
Begone back to the dark dungeons from whence you came pit- digger! Were you in my hands I would melt you down in my hot furnaces and recast your body into shackles, which I would then bind unto the hands of thy master thus ensuring you were never again parted from his grip! Hahahahaha!

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>>He betrayed the Valar by going to war on Melkor.

BETRAYED?! They betrayed me and all the free peoples of ME by NOT going to war agst Morgoth, black enemy of the world. It was their fault he was loose and therefore their responsibility. If they were too gutless to go after him the LEAST they could have done was to assist me. Heartless cowards!

Those who are less in wisdom should heed the words of the wise. Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?

Do not mistake passionate words for true ones.

And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.

Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.

I would have come back and gotten [Fingolfin, etc.]... right after I obtained the silmarils.

Horse-poo. Your direct words to Maedhros were to the effect of "Let them crawl back to the Valar on their bellies if they will" or something of that sort.

[Feanor]

>Feanor on the other hand, now he was a loser,

At least I never slept with my sister.

>did he think that just be bringing a host of elves to ME, that Morgoth was gonna quake in his boots and give the Silmarils back to him.

To attempt a great feat of valour and failing is greater than to have not to tried at all. You Mormegil, I would have thought would understand this. Heed not the crafty words of the dark lord as your father did.

>Feanor was a psycho,

At least I didn't sleep with my sister.

>he believed himself to be invincible, which he quite obviously was not.

The doings and deeds of my lifetime will be known and remembered by all! Thus in song and in tale I live forever!



;)

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Feanor on the other hand, now he was a loser,

At least I never slept with my sister.



At least I didn't sleep with my sister.



;)

A little repetative I think.

Turin's deeds are also remembered for all time.

[Feanor]

>Those who are less in wisdom should heed the words of the wise.

Hmmm, and the Vala I assume your reasoning were 'the wise'? With all their powers of foresight and wisdom did they not foresee the demise of the light of the 2 trees? This proves they were NOT all wise. They hadn't even set guard there! Blind idiocy!
Not only did they not go after Morgoth at once, they didn't even go when the second born, the Atani, came into being! If not for my sake at least for theirs!



>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?




quote:
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And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.
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Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.


quote:
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I would have come back and gotten [Fingolfin, etc.]... right after I obtained the silmarils.
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>Horse-poo. Your direct words to Maedhros were to the effect of "Let them crawl back to the Valar on their bellies if they will" or something of that sort.

The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.


Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.
They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!

You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?

[Feanor]

A little repetative I think.




>repetative..
Is that the Brit spelling? Repetitive you mean? Repetition is a device used by authors who either lack the intelligence to come up with something else OR use it as a device to emphasize a very important point.
For ex: "in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie"

Did Tolkein need this last line? He said it twice, gee, couldn't he think of something else?

Turin's incestuous act was by far his WORST deed. It was the one which ultimately led to his death.


>Turin's deeds are also remembered for all time.

Aye, I'll drink to that!:)

[Mormegil]

I do truly apologise for the spelling mistake!!
No need to mock me, or to insinuate things about 'Brit spelling'.
:mad:

[Feanor]

Hahaha, you are mighty w your sword, but as the old saying goes

the pen is mightier than the sword.:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Feanor
>I just have a problem with Feanor being considered the greatest or the mightiest of anything.
I WAS the greatest in skill.

>He betrayed the Valar by going to war on Melkor.
BETRAYED?! They betrayed me and all the free peoples of ME by NOT going to war agst Morgoth, black enemy of the world. It was their fault he was loose and therefore their responsibility. If they were too gutless to go after him the LEAST they could have done was to assist me. Heartless cowards!
And if the Vala weren't foolish enough to let Morgoth out in the first place none of this would have happened.

>When the Elves of Aqualonde wouldn't give him passage, he killed his own people.
Cowardly fools who would betray their own kin! They were brainwashed by some devilry of the Vala. They deserved to die!

>He then forsook Fingolfin and Galadriel and their people to the doom of Helcaraxe and the Ice Hills, where many of his own people perished.
I would have come back and gotten them... right after I obtained the silmarils.

>Pride, arrogance and conceit were the essence of Feanor and though his soul was the most intense of the Eldar so was his ego.
Feanor for Elves and Turin for Man. The two greatest losers of Middle-earth.
Mighty words. Mighty words indeed. And from what? A 'tool of the underworld'? Methinks that when your master placed MY gems upon his crown that he forgot about you and left you in some dark, dusty corner. Indeed your body would have broken itself upon the silmarils had it tried to break them. You cannot bear that thought. It eats away at you.
Is this not the reason for your contempt of me?
Begone back to the dark dungeons from whence you came pit- digger! Were you in my hands I would melt you down in my hot furnaces and recast your body into shackles, which I would then bind unto the hands of thy master thus ensuring you were never again parted from his grip! Hahahahaha! Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.

[Grond]

And, lastly, I want to give the last two pages of this thread the "Entertaining Thread of the Year Award". I haven't laughed so much since signing on here in October. Good job. I love you guys!!!!!!:D

[Feanor]

>Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.


Thank you Grond. May I say that I have learned much myself from you and NEVER skip over any of your posts. But let me level w you, I'm not actually Feanor. I'm just some guy who has been v moved by Sil and LoTR. And I'm not even a v prolific reader of novels.
But I do believe that to ensure a great debate someone must play Devil's Advocate. And I know I know Feanor did have some major flaws but I do feel a certain affinity w him on some level (I'm going to start another thread [gee,think its about time?!] on why all you guys picked who you did, who/what that person is,etc. Who's Tyaronumen anyway?).

But let me say this, I truly believe that if the real Feanor truly existed (and if he could hypothetically go online to this site) that his response to a verbal attack on him would've been 100X greater in power, persuasion, emotion, and beauty than I could ever hope to achieve.

Think about it, all those Noldorim, LEAVING Aman! Imagine the strength of his words that would make them follow him and cause doubt in even the wisest of beings. I guess that's why I can't stand idly by while someone totally writes off Feanor.

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Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Feanor
Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it? I am so bummed :( that you are not really Feanor. I thought I had found someone who might finally wield me in battle. Who could have stood against Feanor, the mightiest, wisest, bravest, strongest of his people is he were to wielded the Great Hammer Grond? Oh...my...God!!! We would have swept the field away! Oops, I forget....Feanor, the greatest in coordinated skill of his people. Okay, let's see, where was I? Oh yes, ...wielded with the Great Hammer Grond. Fingolfin would have perished with a single blow (your aim being so good and all), Gorthaur/Sauron would have been history and we would have crushed Melkor's head with a mighty blow. You would have the taken his crown and recovered your Simarils.

Oh, I forgot....you're right, Feanor....it sure is fun and does add colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your forum handle. :)

[Lord Melkor]

Yes I am the greatest being on Arda, but at the time Of Beleriand Wars I gave a bulk of my power to the servants of mine.
The problem is you don`t understand the word "power", because it is the spiritual might that counts the most! I propably wouldn`t defeat Ancalogon The Black or Glaurung in straight melee combat.

Don`t you regret not joining forces with me Feanor? We could rule Arda together if it wasn`t for your pride, that day I visited you in Formenos!

And Feanor faced a whole bunch of Balrogs, who defeated Ungoliant, remember, I was powerless against her!

[Lord Melkor]

so bummed that you are not really Feanor. I thought I had found someone who might finally wield me in battle. Who could have stood against Feanor, the mightiest, wisest, bravest, strongest of his people is he were to wielded the Great Hammer Grond? Oh...my...God!!! We would have swept the field away! Oops, I forget....Feanor, the greatest in coordinated skill of his people. Okay, let's see, where was I? Oh yes, ...wielded with the Great Hammer Grond. Fingolfin would have perished with a single blow (your aim being so good and all), Gorthaur/Sauron would have been history and we would have crushed Melkor's head with a mighty blow. You would have the taken his crown and recovered your Simarils.

Traitor!

I have created you you unfaithful hammer!

[baraka]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen


I can hardly understand your admiration for the hubris and assinine behavior of Feanor.

Feanor couldn't even handle fighting Gothmog -- a Balrog (slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain, who was obviously more suited to fighting Balrog's than Feanor), while Fingolfin fought and permanently wounded THE MOST POWERFUL BEING OTHER THAN ILUVATAR.

Your admiration for Feanor (who is best described using words that are inappropriate for public forums) is mind boggling in my humble opinion. I have no sympathy for those who are willful and disobedient in the face of what is right, I am afraid.

You say that Curufinwe was disobedient in the face of what is right? But what is right i ask? To have your father killed and then sit and do nothing as the valar would have wished.

He killed the Teleri and it was dead wrong but couldn´t the Teleri lend their ships to move the noldor to ME and then return to Valinor? Why could they not do that, if there was a great friendship with the noldor?

Curufinwe hated Melkor more than anything in the whole world. He killed his father and he wanted revenge, would Fingolfin have gone to ME and sought revenge for his father against the will of the valar, I don´t think so.

Are you a broncos fan?

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Those who are less in wisdom should heed the words of the wise.

Hmmm, and the Valar I assume your reasoning were 'the wise'? With all their powers of foresight and wisdom did they not foresee the demise of the light of the 2 trees? This proves they were NOT all wise. They hadn't even set guard there! Blind idiocy!
Not only did they not go after Morgoth at once, they didn't even go when the second born, the Atani, came into being! If not for my sake at least for theirs!

Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy?

You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

Foolishness indeed to expect that the Valar would abandon the long wisdom gained of countless ages to support the hatred of one Elda.

I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.



>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?


If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Should you, who cry out against the lawful rulers of the world, expect that they should answer your demands as though ye were Iluvatar? Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.




>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.


And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.


quote:
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I would have come back and gotten [Fingolfin, etc.]... right after I obtained the silmarils.
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>Horse-poo. Your direct words to Maedhros were to the effect of "Let them crawl back to the Valar on their bellies if they will" or something of that sort.

The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.

"You could say I did them a favour"... WHAT?!?! Sirrah, you advance overly far. First you attempt to claim that you would have returned for Fingolfin. Now, you aided them through such black-hearted treachery?

As for the Vala, the Noldor of Fingolfin's host could have returned to Valinor and received the pardon of the Valar, as no small few did. That is, indeed, a mercy.


Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.

And you, most prideful of all save Morgoth Bauglir and Sauron his servant, are the most proper evaluator of this?

They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!

And yet you, and your sons, were ever among the first to bring evil among the Quendi and, in later days, among all the Free Peoples. Should they have dealt harshly with you? Many, among them myself, believe that much evil might have been prevented.

Yet the Valar are wise, and would allow that free will which all have to be exercised to it's fullest.

You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?

I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Feanor, this is without a doubt the best reply I have ever had to one of my attacks on Feanor. I am truly humbled by your greatness and your righteous indignation at me. Those damn Vala. If they had just left us alone in the first place, Melkor would never have been chained the first time and we could have been happy in Utumno. I'm with you..... screw em.


Thank you Grond. May I say that I have learned much myself from you and NEVER skip over any of your posts. But let me level w you, I'm not actually Feanor. I'm just some guy who has been v moved by Sil and LoTR. And I'm not even a v prolific reader of novels.
But I do believe that to ensure a great debate someone must play Devil's Advocate. And I know I know Feanor did have some major flaws but I do feel a certain affinity w him on some level (I'm going to start another thread [gee,think its about time?!] on why all you guys picked who you did, who/what that person is,etc. Who's Tyaronumen anyway?).

Think about it, all those Noldorim, LEAVING Aman! Imagine the strength of his words that would make them follow him and cause doubt in even the wisest of beings. I guess that's why I can't stand idly by while someone totally writes off Feanor.

-------------

Its adds a certain colour to the forum to post replies from the viewpoint of your 'forum name' doesn't it?

Certainly :). Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.


:D

[Feanor]

>Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

I do not pretend to know the will of The One, but I do know that it was he who created Morgoth. And IF it was he who counselled Manwe to let Morgoth free it means that either: a) he had not have foresight of the coming evil OR b)that he knowingly unleashed this demon upon Arda.
Either case leads me to the decision that His Will serves His designs, not mine or my peoples'. So tell me why I should blindly follow the command of Manwe, who is but a servant of the ambiguous and fickle mind that ye would have me worship?

----------------------

>And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy?
You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

Hmm... 'small part' you say? Meaning the opinions of those said are not worth heeding? 'Hubris that does not exist' you say?

Let me repond to that:
Much as I despise the judgement of your masters I exclude from blame 2 of them: Ulmo and Tulcas, for they ALWAYS held Morgoth in suspicion.
Indeed one of the vala (Tulcas) who is not even counted amongst one of the Eight had foresight enough beyond the reckoning his peers; does this not validate my contention that one who may be held as being 'but a small part in the workings of Illuvatar' may at times hold the judgement that is wiser than they?
And let those whom you say play 'but a small part' be judged by the singers of song and the tellers of tale!

For you to claim that any thoughts I or others may hold is naive and foolish simply because they go agst the will of thy masters and not judged on the strength of their own merits speaks to me of a hubris that reeks of a stench fouler than the dank lair of Ungoliant herself!

-------------------------

> The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

I question all. All people, all things, all ideas. I seek ever to build upon, to improve. Who am I you say? I am he who did not accept that the fairest of gems could not be improved upon. I am he who thus created the silmarils. I am he who forever captured the light of the Trees, something which your own lords failed to accomplish.
I am he who refuses to bow to a footstool of the One, I am he who seeks truth. I am he who will not let evil go unpunished and woe to any who try and stand in my way! I AM FEANOR! .:mad:



>I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.

Beyond your reckonings?! I really am disappointed in such a feeble answer.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Should you, who cry out against the lawful rulers of the world, expect that they should answer your demands as though ye were Iluvatar?

I expect them to answer my demands as one who has been wronged by ONE OF THEIR OWN KIND! By one who's property has been vandalised and stolen, by one who's very own dearest father hath been slain, by one who's very own dignity and essence been stained-- ALL BY A VALA!

>If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.

You expect me to blindly trust them. One of who's own kind murdered my father?! I say let them PROVE their worthiness to ME and then I'll consider the question of the silmarils.

quote:
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>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.

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>And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.

You cannot even admit your masters being capable of error. Hubris indeed!



The survivors of that trek turned out to be hardier and more resolute after their ordeal. You could say I did them a favour. And if the Vala were indeed so merciful as you speak, then suely it was in their power to save them.


"You could say I did them a favour"... WHAT?!?! Sirrah, you advance overly far. First you attempt to claim that you would have returned for Fingolfin. Now, you aided them through such black-hearted treachery?
As for the Vala, the Noldor of Fingolfin's host could have returned to Valinor and received the pardon of the Valar, as no small few did. That is, indeed, a mercy.

Methinks you show more mercy to one of your own (Morgoth) than to my people. Was this not the real reason for loosing him?

quote:
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Even when they did FINALLY go after Morgoth at the end of the age they did so not at some predetermined or strategically planned point of time, but only when an emissary (Earendil) came and BEGGED them to help. Tell me, what part did wisdom play in the timing of their assault? NONE! It was pride. They wanted an apology.
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>And you, most prideful of all save Morgoth Bauglir and Sauron his servant, are the most proper evaluator of this?

Since no other evaluator has come forth, aye, I am indeed the most proper!


quote:
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They are the appointed guardians of the world. It is their DUTY to rid the world of evil. Not to wait for some emissary to beg them to go! If not for my silmaril, Earendil wouldn't have even made it to Aman, and they might never have attacked!
Fools! The lot of them!
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>And yet you, and your sons, were ever among the first to bring evil among the Quendi and, in later days, among all the Free Peoples. Should they have dealt harshly with you? Many, among them myself, believe that much evil might have been prevented.

Yet the Valar are wise, and would allow that free will which all have to be exercised to it's fullest.


Such hypocrisy, you who hold free will to be such a virtue, yet mock and degrade me, ME FEANOR, a more perfect example of
free will of which cannot be found in all the vastness of Arda!
quote:
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You speak of mercy. Where was their mercy for the Sindarin? for the Atani? for the green elves? for the dwarves?
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>I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself

That is the key isn't it - YOU CANNOT ANSWER ALL. Yet it was MY father who has died by one of your own, AND YOU CANNOT ANSWER?!! Or will not?!! Your responses only further my resolve!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Feanor]

>Certainly . Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.

Pleased to meet you, kind sir.
:)

And might I introduce myself:

Feanor's the name, free will's the game!

:) :) :)

[Mormegil]

And this year's award for longest post goes to.........
FEANOR!! :D :confused:

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Indeed, the Valar, who created that upon which ye stand and who serve the will of The One.

I do not pretend to know the will of The One, but I do know that it was he who created Morgoth. And IF it was he who counselled Manwe to let Morgoth free it means that either: a) he had not have foresight of the coming evil OR b)that he knowingly unleashed this demon upon Arda.
Either case leads me to the decision that His Will serves His designs, not mine or my peoples'. So tell me why I should blindly follow the command of Manwe, who is but a servant of the ambiguous and fickle mind that ye would have me worship?

You are correct, Feanor, when ye say that Iluvatar follows His own designs and not those of any other.

But ye are, whether ye will it or not, but a mote before Him, being created by Him for purposes that none save He might know. I cannot advise ye as to why it is proper to follow the command of Manwe, though none demand it blindly of ye, save that Manwe is just, and he is wise, and that since ye are lacking in both those qualities of wisdom and justice, ye would do well to follow one who has them in abundance and to understand that it is beyond the ability of limited beings such as we to conceive of all in Ea with it's many splendourous dimensions.


----------------------

>And yet ye, who are but a small part in the workings of Iluvatar, declare that innocence is blind idiocy? You are swift to criticize those who have grown only slowly in their understanding of evil, for it has no hold upon them. It seems to me that perhaps you mistake the mercy of the Valar and their innocent neglect of the defence of the two trees for a hubris that does not exist.

Hmm... 'small part' you say? Meaning the opinions of those said are not worth heeding? 'Hubris that does not exist' you say?

Meaning that ye should not comment upon that which it is beyond ye're ability to comprehend.

Let me repond to that:
Much as I despise the judgement of your masters I exclude from blame 2 of them: Ulmo and Tulcas, for they ALWAYS held Morgoth in suspicion.
Indeed one of the vala (Tulcas) who is not even counted amongst one of the Eight had foresight enough beyond the reckoning his peers; does this not validate my contention that one who may be held as being 'but a small part in the workings of Illuvatar' may at times hold the judgement that is wiser than they?
And let those whom you say play 'but a small part' be judged by the singers of song and the tellers of tale!

For you to claim that any thoughts I or others may hold is naive and foolish simply because they go agst the will of thy masters and not judged on the strength of their own merits speaks to me of a hubris that reeks of a stench fouler than the dank lair of Ungoliant herself!

Tulkas is in harmony with the will of Iluvatar and that of Manwe. The same cannot be said of yourself or your deeds, and so it does not validate that which was BEHIND your fair seeming words, which is mainly to contend that ye are right.

And NAY, Feanor. Ye are judged before Iluvatar in the Halls of Ea and the words of no other will succour ye from the fate that ye have earned to dwell in Mandos until the end of days.

Ye deny the wisdom of the Valar and of Iluvatar at thy own choosing and speak blackly of them, never acknowledging that the very framework within which ye're mind works comes from Iluvatar, and that thy skill is due not solely to thyself, but that Iluvatar also has willed this. As Morgoth arose in pride and so thought to work against Iluvatar and against the Valar, so you in your own small pride also rise. But ye serve only to further the work of thy Creator and ultimate Master.

-------------------------

> The Valar did not go after Morgoth. But who are you to question the wisdom of the Powers and their reasons, you who are not wise enough to cool the heat of your own foolishness?

I question all. All people, all things, all ideas. I seek ever to build upon, to improve. Who am I you say? I am he who did not accept that the fairest of gems could not be improved upon. I am he who thus created the silmarils. I am he who forever captured the light of the Trees, something which your own lords failed to accomplish.
I am he who refuses to bow to a footstool of the One, I am he who seeks truth. I am he who will not let evil go unpunished and woe to any who try and stand in my way! I AM FEANOR! .:mad:

We are all well aware of who ye are Feanor -- none could forget the Elda associated so closely with the creation of the Silmarils and the terrible oath that followed.

Ye question all, but this is foolishness. Do ye question the ocean? Do ye question the sky? Of what purpose is this foolishness? Ye seek to improve upon the beauty of a simple rose petal? There are many questions, but no satisfactory answers to those which question the fundamental nature of Iluvatar's will and Creation.

As for capturing the light of the Trees -- you merely accomplish that which none of the Valar had attempted.



>I cannot speak to the Atani, for they are beyond all my reckonings.

Beyond your reckonings?! I really am disappointed in such a feeble answer.

Ye would savour, rather, lies such as those which Morgoth whispered, and you believed in your rashness?

I will not lie to ye and claim knowledge where I have none.


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>Did the Teleri, in their innocence, also "betray" you? Did the followers of Fingolfin "betray" you? Is that why you burned the ships and left them to suffer the terrible passage of the Helcaraxe?


Had the Vala assisted me in the beginning none of this would have come to pass. Much needless suffering could have been averted, or had they not had the wisdom to foresee this too?

The Valar should have forseen that ye are a murderer of thine ancient allies and kindred?

Do not seek to blame the Valar for your unforgivable and hideous actions. Ye are a murderer and are branded such in the histories of the Elder Days.


>If ye had agreed to surrender the Silmarilli, much assistance you would have had, and lesser then, the grief of all would have been in later days. Do not assign blame to the Valar where it falls squarely upon thyself and thy willful nature.

You expect me to blindly trust them. One of who's own kind murdered my father?! I say let them PROVE their worthiness to ME and then I'll consider the question of the silmarils.

Ye have no respect for thy creator. Ye have no respect for those who have created thy world and have not denied it from ye save after you have committed unforgivable acts.

You are the one with much to prove, son of Finwe -- you are the murderer, the untrue, the oath-taker. Not the Valar.

quote:
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>Those who do not understand mercy often debase the merciful.


There's a difference between mercy and stupidity.



Yes -- and ye are unaware of the difference, having never felt mercy for another.


>And you, mighty Feanor? You have never committed errors? Have ne'er learned from them? Your lack of compassion is what dooms you.

You cannot even admit your masters being capable of error. Hubris indeed!

Then ye are blind, for the admission is there, though it absolves ye of none of thy guilt, nor of thy arrogance.

[/B]
Methinks you show more mercy to one of your own (Morgoth) than to my people. Was this not the real reason for loosing him?[/B]

I know not of what ye speak when ye refer to 'my own', for I am of the Eldalie, as surely as thyself.

He was loosed because his sentence was finished, and he who set such judgement upon Morgoth would not be a liar.

Such hypocrisy, you who hold free will to be such a virtue, yet mock and degrade me, ME FEANOR, a more perfect example of free will of which cannot be found in all the vastness of Arda!

I have done naught but advise ye of thy deeds, Feanor. If in doing so, mockery and degradation seem to play a part, that is the fault of thy actions, not of their telling.

And ye have misused your free will, Feanor. Great indeed are the gifts given to ye in craftsmanship, but selfish and grasping are ye indeed to share them not for the benefit of all, e'en while ye walk upon and breath that which the Valar crafted, upon that world which is a most perfect example of the generous nature of all of the Valar.

Selfish indeed, for ye choose to serve only thyself, and then only but poorly, when you would better serve thyself by serving all.



>I cannot answer all that of which you speak here and now. Your question does trouble me, but not so much as your foul conduct, you who would question the mercy of others, but have none thyself
That is the key isn't it - YOU CANNOT ANSWER ALL. Yet it was MY father who has died by one of your own, AND YOU CANNOT ANSWER?!! Or will not?!! Your responses only further my resolve!


Thou would that I invent answers, then, to satisfy thy urge for argument? Nay, Son of Finwe, for it was not merely YOUR father who died, but the King of the Noldor and father to them, though ye were the foremost in his care.

And though it would seem to be thy purpose to confuse me with those whom I serve, I again tell thee that I but serve the Valar, and seek no glory, nor mastery, while claiming none, and my kinship to ye is the closer by blood.

Thy deeds have no defence, Feanor. Thy grievance with the Valar cannot justify thy actions against the Teleri and the Noldor, e'en if much else might be forgiven.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Feanor
>Certainly . Sir, you have asked who I am... My title of old is Tyaronumen which is Quenya -- "Agent of the West", for I serve the Valar and all of their creations who live in harmony with the beauty of Eä. My mother given name is Toronolva, as I have ever been a great friend of the children of Yavanna Kementari amongst all of Iluvatar's Children.

Pleased to meet you, kind sir.
:)

And might I introduce myself:

Feanor's the name, free will's the game!

:) :) :)


Hee! There is no mistaking *YOU* for anyone else... :)