Looking for those of the Tolkien Religion!

[Teledhelwen]

Religious Tolkienists believe and worship the Valar & Iluvatar. I have been searching for these people for a year. This religion is not common and would be delighted to find someone to share it with. I am passionately in love with Middle-earth and my religion and I believe any true tolkienists should be, too. Please respond if you know anyone like me!

[Teledhelwen]

What are the Notion Club papers?

For one, I believe Tolkien's latest mythology is the most accurate because in the Lost Tales it seems as if he is jotting down the content as he learned it. Christopher Tolkien is simply finishing his father's work as the Prophet's son and will defend it at any chance.

We do not take Iluvatar in any way as close to the Christian God. The most insulting people (to me) are Christians who make allegories out of Lord of the Rings. For example, the Elves being catholic, the Dwarves protestants, and Quenya being like Latin.

I have heard of Tolkienists in Russia, being adopted during the Cold War. Though with my desperate hunting I have found nothing, at least, not on the web. That is why I joined the Tolkien Forum. No, I don't know even one man with a similar religion.

There are many forms of it, however, from my research. Bombadilists believe Iluvatar is truely Tom Bombadil. Tolkienologists simply worship Eru & the Valar. And so on and so forth. Sadly, the influence in the Soviet Union is not great enough and no church has yet been created. On a more cheerful note, according to a presentation by Mark Hooker at the University of Indiana, the possibility of a church within the next hundred years is indeed possible. That is my dream.

RGEO!

[Ithrynluin]

Well met, Teledhelwen, and welcome to the Tolkien forum!

In many ways, I share your beliefs, and don't discard the possibility that Tolkien's stories could be true (however unlikely or even laughable this may seem to many). A Tolkien dedicated church is indeed an appealing idea, and I would certainly welcome it. :)

P.S. The Notion Club papers are part of HoME IX.

[Teledhelwen]

Thank You!

[Gandalf The Grey]

As for the "Tolkien Religion" ... that would be Roman Catholic, J.R.R. Tolkien having been quite publicly known for his belonging and faithfulness to the Catholic Church. Here's what the Good Professor himself had to say about religion in relationship to "Lord of the Rings." To quote from a letter that Tolkien wrote to Robert Murray on December 2, 1953:

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults and practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

Wishing everyone a Happy Easter,

Gandalf the Grey

[Teledhelwen]

As for the "Tolkien Religion" ... that would be Roman Catholic, J.R.R. Tolkien having been quite publicly known for his belonging and faithfulness to the Catholic Church. Here's what the Good Professor himself had to say about religion in relationship to "Lord of the Rings." To quote from a letter that Tolkien wrote to Robert Murray on December 2, 1953:



Wishing everyone a Happy Easter,

Gandalf the Grey
Hey Gandalf the Grey
Yes, he was Catholic but he did not follow his religion. I suggest that you do some research. He says quite specificly in LOTR that you shouldnt make a allegory out of his work. I am extremly ticked at you because I hate Catholics and Christians that GO BEYOND THE LIMIT TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES. So do some research again and comment after your finished. OK? Byz.

Teledhelwen, this post is bordering on a personal attack. Please calm down. -- ithrynluin

[Gandalf The Grey]

Nice try, but I've done my research.

Tolkien in fact practiced his Catholic religion to the point where he was able to convert C.S. Lewis to Christianity from the agnosticism into which Lewis had lapsed.

And yes, I'm quite familiar with the passage wherein Tolkien speaks of his dislike for allegory. However, Tolkien had no problem with applicability. I just exercise my freedom as a reader ... something with which Tolkien heartily agreed, as another quote from Tolkien himself amply proves.

Here's the relevant quote from the Good Professor:

"...But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."

Above quote taken from Introduction to LotR, V. I, xi

Do you have any quotations to support your positions, Teledhelwen?

[dapence]

I would refrain from any further expressions of hatred, especially towards those of a particular religious beliefs. It may provoke some of the 'powers' that reside here at TTF.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

How does one attain salvation in this religion? :confused:

[Snaga]

Why assume that salvation is a feature of this religion?

I hope people can be tolerant here. It is strange to me that people would create a religion from Tolkien's work, but it seems to me to do no harm. On that basis, I respect the right of Teledhelwen and anyone else to express their spirituality freely. Most of us have at least found deeper truths and beauty in Tolkien's work. Crushing the ideas of others comes only from Mordor, take it from an orc.;)

[Teledhel]

My user name has been changed. I am extremely sorry for my outburst at "Gandalf the Grey", it only seemed as though he was taunting me with his "What Would Tolkien Do". I do not have any quotations for him, but whatever happened to love and faith? I could question his religion, too, try to prove him wrong, but I will not. I did not post this thread in order to have a religious war. I simply need information that will HELP me. Oh, and there is no concept of salvation in this religion, and I thank you for your interest.

[Saermegil]

I am curious about some things in you religion, please answer my questions if you can:

1)(a)Which sources is the material of your religion drawn from?
(b)Do you believe all the things Tokien has written to be true?

2)Do you have any rituals?

3)What are the rules of social intercourse for people of your religion?

4)Is a religion or philosophy related to your religious ideas?

[Ciryaher]

Well in the Lost Tales, the fate of Mankind is related. Those who lead truly pious lives will reside in Valinor, the majority of in-betweeners will go to the Battle Plain to await the Last Battle, and those evildoers will be sent to the depths of Angband/Utumno to endure torture and pain until the Last Battle.

And Tolkien, himself, was a Catholic...rather devout. I, myself, have wondered at whether or not Tolkien's writing were "inspired", and perhaps they were. However, I see them as mythology, like much of the Old Testament and Mahabharata, etc.

[Gandalf The Grey]

My user name has been changed. I am extremely sorry for my outburst at "Gandalf the Grey", it only seemed as though he was taunting me with his "What Would Tolkien Do". I do not have any quotations for him, but whatever happened to love and faith? I could question his religion, too, try to prove him wrong, but I will not. I did not post this thread in order to have a religious war. I simply need information that will HELP me. Oh, and there is no concept of salvation in this religion, and I thank you for your interest.

Dear Teledhel,

First off, I forgive you. *nods good-naturedly *

As for my post title "What Would Tolkien Do" ... seeing as how you are discussing a religion based on Tolkien's literary works, it is both pertinent and legitimate to explore how the author himself would feel about your venture, based upon the author's own quoted statements regarding religion.

My answers are not meant to instigate a religious war. In fact, you ask whatever happened to love and faith? It has been love of truth and the importance of faith which moved me to post to this thread. This being an open and public forum, it is only to be expected that all are welcome to reply, even when viewpoints differ ... that's only fair. Of course, the ensuing discussion is presupposed to be, and hoped to be, courteous and civil among all conversation participants.

I shall leave you with another Tolkien quote, this one from "The Tolkien Reader," dated 1966. This quote demonstrates how Tolkien the author envisions the worship and religiosity of the elves he created to be properly directed:

"God is the Lord of angels, and of men -- and of elves." -- J.R.R. Tolkien

Please notice that Tolkien did not say "Eru is the Lord of angels, and of men -- and of elves." Nor did he say "Ilúvatar is the Lord of angels, and of men -- and of elves." And his incorporation of the word "angels" into the quote shows that Tolkien was speaking of the real world he believed in according to his Catholic faith, since angels (to my knowledge) do not appear within the fictional world of Middle-earth as found in such writings as "The Hobbit," "The Lord of the Rings," "The Silmarillion," and the like.

-- Gandalf the Grey

[Ithrynluin]

And his incorporation of the word "angels" into the quote shows that Tolkien was speaking of the real world he believed in according to his Catholic faith, since angels (to my knowledge) do not appear within the fictional world of Middle-earth as found in such writings as "The Hobbit," "The Lord of the Rings," "The Silmarillion," and the like.The Maiar (and the Valar)? Though I think you are quite right in that they are not referred to as 'angels' in those three published works. Yet there's proof aplenty in the Letters:

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #71
For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good is on one side and various modes of badness on the other. In real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and angels.
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131
The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131
In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth.
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #153
As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels – reverend, therefore, but not worshipful
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #156
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. And so on. I might say much more, but it would only be in (perhaps tedious) elucidation of the 'mythological' ideas in my mind; it would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of G. is as presented in this book a 'defect', and one I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend. But G. is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel'– strictly an ἄγγελος: that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.


The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #156
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.
And so on and so forth...

[Eledhwen]

I too understood the Valar to be angelic in concept; with the addition of being able to clothe themselves in mortal flesh (I never heard of Judaeo-Christian angels doing this). Tolkien would turn in his grave at the prospect of a religion being formed based on his works.

Also, Lewis was not an agnostic (one who doesn't know). He was an atheist who had consciously rejected the notion of the existance of God.

Tolkien states in his letters that Middle-earth religion had no organised worship practices, so any attempt to organise an Eru-based religion fails at the first post - organising it would remove its authenticity.

Morgoth worship was a practiced religion, but I suspect that is not what you had in mind.

[Inderjit S]

The Númenóreans were monotheists but after the destruction of Meneltarma they didn’t set up any temples or shrines. They still had lore of course, about Eru and the Valar etc, but a lot of men tended to confused the Valar with "gods".

The other races of men were didn't have any organised religion. Some worshipped Sauron.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Wow, ithrynluin!

Thank you for taking this thread in such a worthwhile and intriguing direction. * bows * :)

Actually, I'd already been aware that angels held a symbolic place in Tolkien's works ... So I quite agree with all you say, and (of course) with your quotes. In fact, I've thought myself and heard it said on another Tolkien forum that Gandalf the Grey represents St. Michael the Archangel ... which fascinates me, since St. Michael has been for some time one of my special and favorite patron saints.

I was definitely splitting hairs when I said that "angels" (meaning the specific word "angels") does not appear in Tolkien's works ... and could easily accept the symbolic existence of angels based on Tolkien's "applicability of the reader" to see them ... even without the additional quotes you so graciously provide.

Hallo Eledhwen: :)

Regarding the ability of angels to clothe themselves in mortal flesh ... (if you'll pardon me for getting away from Tolkien for a bit) ... how do you understand the Bible story about Abraham and Sarah entertaining angels ... even serving them food and drink, and the later Bible verse probably based on that story which goes: "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained Angels with out knowing it - Hebrew 13:2" ? An inquiring mind wants to know! :)

And I see your point that C.S. Lewis can more properly have been called an atheist. You've made me curious to return to the source material I was using where I remember seeing the word "agnosticism" and track down exactly who it was that used the word and how. * nods *

-- Gandalf the Grey

[Rangerdave]

First and foremost, I wish to make it clear that one's personal spiritual beliefs is his or her own, and I respect that. This post should in no way been seen as an attack on faith or spirituality in general or in particular.

Now having said that...


I find the concept of a faith based on the writings of Master Tolkien to be bit flawed from the very begining.

Eru was the creator of Arda, true. But Master Tolkien was the Creator of Eru. This means that the creation cycle in a Eru based mythology is backwards. Instead of the more usual Supreme Being>Cosmos>Man hierachy, you have instead a more complex Man(Tolkien)>Cosmos>Supreme Being equation. Very hard to follow.
Tolkien created his Elves before he created his Valar. This makes the creation timeline very hard to follow. It's like saying B follows A yet A comes after B.

Another analogy that fits.
Let us say that agreat architect decides to build the Empire State Building (as happened in 1930). Then one day a small child on a sight-seeing trip to New York is amazed at the wonder of the sky-scraper.
When the child gets back home he decides to pull out his leggo brand building blocks and make a model of his beloved Empire State Building. And so he does, keeping it in a very special place on his toy shelf.

The Creator is the Architect and the Creation is the Building, the Sub-Creator is the Child and the Sub-creation is the model. The concept of Prayer to Eru (a sub-creation) by a human being (a creation) is like a New York businessman trying to open an office in the Model rather than the real Empire State Building.

I for one just don't get it.



Thank you for your time
you may now continue your discussion.

RD

[Snaga]

Eru was the creator of Arda, true. But Master Tolkien was the Creator of Eru. This means that the creation cycle in a Eru based mythology is backwards. Its always people who give a name to "God". And an atheist would tell you that its always people who create God.:)

[faila]

Its always people who give a name to "God". And an atheist would tell you that its always people who create God.:)
You say its always people who give a name to God, but obviously this statement would be impossible to know completely. Assuming that God is completely sovereign it might in the end appear that he was named by humans but he actually named himself working through a human. (wow read it a couple times i swear it make sense.)

If Tolkiens mythology is real then how come we see no evidence of him believing it?

[Eledhwen]

If Tolkiens mythology is real then how come we see no evidence of him believing it?Not only did he not believe it, he attempted to completely rewrite it to fit in with modern cosmogonic theory (see HoME 10). He sent the changes to friends for comment, and they said they preferred the original, so I suspect the changes were abandoned.

Having said that, Tolkien retrospectively believed that he had a divine helping hand in the writing of The Lord of the Rings.

[Paul]

Didn't Tolkien state somewhere that all the stuff he wrote was fiction? How can you follow a relgion that has no truth to it at all? :confused:

[Eledhwen]

Didn't Tolkien state somewhere that all the stuff he wrote was fiction? How can you follow a relgion that has no truth to it at all? :confused:
Ask Ron L Hubbard (deceased?)

[Lhunithiliel]

Didn't he really believe in the mythology he created himself?

From H.Carpenter's biography of J.R.R.Tolkien:

Once more he refers to his own mythology. His eyes fix on some distant object, and he seems to have forgotten that I am there.... but the mind (T's) is far away, roaming the plains and the mountains of Middle-earth

He says that he has to clear up an apparent contradiction in a passage of the LotR that has been pointed out in a letter from a reader.... He explains it all in great detail, talking about his book not as a work of fiction, but as a chronicle of actual events; he seems to see himself not as an author who has made a slight error that must now be corrected or explained away, but as a historian who must cast light on an obscurity in a historical document.

[Eledhwen]

I stand corrected of sloppy posting, Walter.

I meant to only say that the Cosmogenesis was rewritten.

Lhun's observations are interesting. Tolkien often 'went to find out' what people had asked him. I assumed it was because he gained so much additional inspiration from the nomenclature he devised. I think he believed in his religion for Middle-earth, but not for this world. To transfer Iluvatar et al to the modern world would be folly, as they are real only in Middle-earth.

[faila]

Ask Ron L Hubbard (deceased?)
he did it for the money i think..........and isnt it L. Ron hubbard? He made mass amounts of money off his cult. (Edit: but he did write some great science fiction, though not as great as Robert A. heinlen or Larry Niven but still good)

[Eledhwen]

I liked the Heinlein stuff.

The point is, though, that Tolkien created a much more interesting 'religion', but did not even contemplate exporting it into the real world, considering the one he already practiced to be the Real Thing.

[Ithrynluin]

I find the concept of a faith based on the writings of Master Tolkien to be bit flawed from the very begining.

Eru was the creator of Arda, true. But Master Tolkien was the Creator of Eru. This means that the creation cycle in a Eru based mythology is backwards. Instead of the more usual Supreme Being>Cosmos>Man hierachy, you have instead a more complex Man(Tolkien)>Cosmos>Supreme Being equation. Very hard to follow.

I don't see the sense in this. One could say that Tolkien was merely a medium through whom the whole mythology was conveyed to the rest of the world, whether the professor would agree with that or not. And what you say about the creation cycle being backwards, that could easily be said of Christianity (and other religions? I don't know them well enough to tell), in the sense that the men who wrote the Bible were also the creators of it, and of God. The fact that Christianity is 2000+ years old, and therefore drastically older than any would-be Tolkien religion, does not render the latter any less believable in my eyes. Faith is not based on proof, as much as it is based on 'blind' belief.

[Eledhwen]

Did Tolkien actually create a "religion" for his legendarium? And did he really consider the one he practiced the real thing?

I mean all we have is a little bit of information that would support such a point of view and a little bit of information that would be able to question this.

Can one be real sure about anyone elses religion to make statements in such a "matter-of-factly" way?

Scio me nihil scire...Tolkien was a Roman Catholic. He practiced his religion, professing daily devotions; he confessed catholicism in his letters and evangelised (notably CS Lewis).

Added to this, I am also a practicing Christian, and it takes one to know one, so to speak :cool: .

[Inderjit S]

'I wish I were a little more Catholic, then all would be quite easy, I would go to church each sunday and confess my sins (and would be rid of them)'

One can confess your sins without going to church or being a Catholick, of course. ;)

And getting "rid of" your sins? Well you can repent of your sins, but get rid of them? You cannot get rid of something you have already done.

[joxy]

....you can repent of your sins, but get rid of them? You cannot get rid of something you have already done.
Confession, better known now as Reconciliation, does just that for you.

[faila]

One can confess your sins without going to church or being a Catholick, of course. ;)

And getting "rid of" your sins? Well you can repent of your sins, but get rid of them? You cannot get rid of something you have already done. I must say that you do basically get rid of your sins....you may have a punishment on this earth, but once confessed their no eternal punishment...so basically its gotten rid of. (note: Im not a catholic...so my beliefs are different in some areas)
Back on subject:
When the apostles and the writers of the word of God wrote their books they would of admitted and known that they were writing truth. Tolkien said his work was fiction, and never believed in it. Why would a god choose to work through someone who didnt believe in him? THe whole belief in a relgion that the person who created it didnt believe seems slightly wierd.

[Inderjit S]

But why then does the priest say "Ego te absolvo..." when one is done confessing?

Well....I don't really know much about the Christian confessional procedure to comment. I think (personally) that it isn't a matter of getting rid your sins, but it is a matter of realising you have sinned and that it is wrong. I think you should work it out yourself and that you do not need to go to a priest to get rid of them, so to speak.

A lot of people may also misinterpret the nature of confessionals. They may just go there and (in their hearts) not really repent of their sins and think that if they just go to the priest and tell him about their sins and put on a act of repentance then that would be o.k.

For example, if we were to take, say, literature as an example, do you really think 'The Prince' from Lampedusa's 'The Leopard' or Oskar's mother from 'The Tin Drum' truly repented of their sins or do you think they just went to confessional to make themselves feel better? Admittedly these are fictional accounts, but I'm sure something like what I'm describing happens in real life.

And imagine confessing to a corrupt priest? There are and were some corrupt priests. Isn't it a bit paradoxical that your "path" to god is somebody who is immoral?

Not that I'm taking a bash at Christianity or repentance. I'm just airing my rather silly views on the topic.

And sorry about my spelling of 'CatholicK' reading Don Quixote has messed up my c/k's ;)

[Eledhwen]

I have found about 8 places in the Bible with variations on: "The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in mercy/love". This Lord is entirely compatible with the one in Tolkien's mythology (where would The Lord of the Rings be without mercy?).Why would a god choose to work through someone who didnt believe in him? The Bible (especially the OT) is full of just such incidences. But the fact is that Tolkien was not just a nominal Catholic, he lived his religion: "I fell in love with the Blessed Sacrament from the beginning - and by the mercy of God never have fallen out again: but alas! I indeed did not live up to it. ... Out of wickedness and sloth I almost ceased to practise my religion - especially at Leeds, and at 22 Northmoor Road. Not for me the Hound of Heaven, but the never-ceasing silent appeal of Tabernacle, and the sense of starving hunger. I regret those days bitterly (and suffer for them with such patience as I can be given); most of all because I failed as a father. Now I pray for you all, unceasingly, that the Healer shall heal my defects, and that none of you shall ever cease to cry Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini." ("Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.") - Letter 250 1.Nov.63 to Michael Tolkien.

Despite the God of Middle-earth resembling the Christian God in character, the above does not sound like someone who would want the religion he created in Myth to be exported into the real world.

[Eledhwen]

Fighting talk!

The letter is a response to a most despondent son, many miles away. Tolkien speaks mainly of the failings of Christians, whilst maintaining devotion to the Faith. It might be summed up in the quote "For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more - remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words. (...) You speak of 'sagging faith', however. That is quite another matter. In the last resort faith is an act of will, inspired by love. Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly and even sins of the Church and its ministers, but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons." The 'ifs' that Tolkien uses towards the middle of the letter, if you read it carefully, are hypothetical. Even skimming the letter, one must conclude that it would be unthinkable for such a man to write to a depressed, convalescing son in such terms if it were not to build the latter's faith up.

Though I am not a Catholic, having put myself under the care of Church pastors who turned out to be less than holy, causing more pain than healing, I can relate to Tolkien's words in this letter.

I am particularly fascinated by his claims for the emotional healing powers of the Sacrament. I have not tested his claim, being too idle to attend church every day to receive it (I think it is 7.00am on weekdays at our local Anglican Church), though I would love to hear the opinions of those who have. (There are those who would tell me that Anglican communion is not the real thing anyway, seeing as how that group were all excommunicated from the RC Church about 500 years ago.)

[Eledhwen]

Sorry, did I get preachy? The Bible is to me what the 6.30 out of Paddington is to a trainspotter - exciting! The quote you give is, of course, the most important, and the truth that is most frequently overlooked. It also happens to be the one I am most grateful for.

[Lhunithiliel]

This probably will be the only post I'll make in this thread.

First of all, I find it a silly idea to call "religion" the mere state of liking Tolkien's writings!
Second, even that I don't find the Bible exciting from any other point of view but historical, or/and Christianity or/and any other religion truly and honestly contributing to the development of the human individual, I still know what these are about, I have a fair idea of their structure and function ... and I can't see too much a resemblance between THE God in the Christian religion and Eru - Iluvatar in Tolkien's mythology.
Tolkien's dieties were created as the fundamental elements any mythology would have. And in this, they are much more like pagan dieties than any of those worshiped in Christian religion.

As for sins and their absolution ... Ask a most fanaticly faithful Conquistador after having slain a village of Indians and after having robbed the dead bodies from all the gold he could've found on them, after which he has gone and destroyed the temples and the constructions of a civilization ages older than his own... :rolleyes: What if he repents?! What if his sins have been forgiven? Will this bring back the dead to life? Will this bring back the demolished cultural and architectural sites?

[Teledhelwen]

I am extremely disappointed at where this thread is going. This is what happens when I look for others of my religion. I will be leaving the Tolkien Forum :( Namarie, my friends, and may the Valar protect you.

[Eledhwen]

As for sins and their absolution ... Ask a most fanaticly faithful Conquistador after having slain a village of Indians and after having robbed the dead bodies from all the gold he could've found on them, after which he has gone and destroyed the temples and the constructions of a civilization ages older than his own... :rolleyes: What if he repents?! What if his sins have been forgiven? Will this bring back the dead to life? Will this bring back the demolished cultural and architectural sites?This is probably the greatest similarity between real Christianity and Tolkien's Middle-earth religion. Even Saruman was offered mercy in the hope that he would find a cure; and as the hymn by Charles Wesley states: "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."

And Walter - I offer this for comparison, not to preach :p

I am sorry that Teledhelwen has chosen to leave such a rich Tolkien Forum because its members do not worship Iluvatar, but Professor Tolkien would have been apalled if we did.

[Ithrynluin]

I am extremely disappointed at where this thread is going. This is what happens when I look for others of my religion. I will be leaving the Tolkien Forum :( Namarie, my friends, and may the Valar protect you.Any discussion concerning Middle-Earth religion or religion based on Middle-Earth is bound to get intertwined with Christianity - Tolkien's own religion. Your desire to leave the forum seems to me unreasonable and uncalled for. But if that is your wish I bid you a fond farewell and the best of luck in all your endeavours.

[Lhunithiliel]

This is probably the greatest similarity between real Christianity and Tolkien's Middle-earth religion. Even Saruman was offered mercy in the hope that he would find a cure; and as the hymn by Charles Wesley states: "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."


I can't find the connection between my example and your statemnet, El!

And ... BTW, would it really be the right thing to call Tolkien's mythology a "religion"????

[Eledhwen]

Your quote, Walter, is about Tolkien's views on Beowulf isn't it? The way I read LotR, the 'pardon' was unspoken, and came with the 'cure'. Gandalf offered Saruman a way out. His previous rank was no longer available, but he was offered fellowship. It seems to me that one who was considered 'reformed' was allowed back into the fold, being perceived as a changed person and no longer a danger. In this, Tolkien's myth goes further than the actual practices of modern Christianity.

And yes, Lhun; I am using the word 'religion' quite loosely - perhaps too much so, as it is the practice of deference to a deity that makes a religion, not the existence of said deity.

Beowulf's byrne was made by Weland, and the iron shield he bore against the serpent by his own smiths: it was not yet the breastplate of righteousness, nor the shield of faith for the quenching of all the fiery darts of the wicked.This is interesting; for most of the British gods (who were barely distinguishable from men) were 'converted' into saints via the tales of monks who, unable to wean people off their gods, embellished or distorted the original stories with Christian content so the people venerated a Christianised figure. They were obviously pretty good storytellers, judging by the number of local saints dotted around Wales, Cornwall and Ireland.