Elves at Helms Deep? [Archive]

PRH

01-02-2002, 05:02 PM

Do you mean to say that the entire Shire fight sequence at the end of RoTK has been cut??

That's my understanding. Phillippia Boyens (screenwriter) said something to the effect that even though that chapter in the book is so great, they just couldn't make it work in the film. After having the climax of the destruction of the ring, another little climax like that would be just too episodic or something. She may have a point. It's really too bad though, that chapter really brings the Hobbit's involvement full circle.

Asfaloth

01-02-2002, 05:02 PM

"Arwen," your namesake is NOT the same as Eowyn except in that they're both female! Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if you're a troll. ...as for TTT, I've seen a screen shot of Arwen at Helm's Deep, so prepare yourselves.

Moose

01-02-2002, 06:34 PM

>>>as for TTT, I've seen a screen shot of Arwen at Helm's Deep, so prepare yourselves.<<<

Dear God, NO. IT CAN'T BE!!

Tar-Steve

01-02-2002, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Moose
>>>as for TTT, I've seen a screen shot of Arwen at Helm's Deep, so prepare yourselves.<<<

Dear God, NO. IT CAN'T BE!!

Relax, It's probaby just Galadriel. (HA HA!)

HLGStrider

01-02-2002, 10:36 PM

The biggest problem I have with Arwen appearing in TT is that it will down play poor Eowyn. It also messes up her lovely infatuation with Aragorn.
After all, in the book, Eowyn falls for Aragorn. I am pretty sure she assumed he was single. Now he has an elf babe (Sorry Arwen fans, but that's the way it is going to look) on his heals. What are they going to do? Get in a fight over him.
I can see it...
Eowyn: He's mine you pointy eared hussy!!! At least we're of the same species!
Arwen: If you want him, come and get him!!!!!!!!!!
Aragorn has enough to worry about without having to assure his sweetheart that he isn't having an affair with a Rohan Princess. Arwen's part is going to be a bad enough stretch without her having to "stake her claim" so to speak.

Arwen

01-02-2002, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Asfaloth
"Arwen," your namesake is NOT the same as Eowyn except in that they're both female! Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if you're a troll. ...as for TTT, I've seen a screen shot of Arwen at Helm's Deep, so prepare yourselves.

Hey im not a troll :(.....i am an ELF princess.
Oh oh oh can you plzzzzzz post the pic of Arwen at Hlems Deep.....yaaaaaay i wanna see it, hey what is she wearing, does she look pretty....:)

Thorin

01-03-2002, 12:17 AM

I fail to see what the problem is for many of you. Many of you had no problem with Arwen's extended role at the Ford. At least at Helm's Deep she'll be one of the many who are just fighting. At the Ford she undermined Frodo, Elrond, Glorfindel and Tolkien's Arwen. Those are many HUGE distortions....You want a "more developed" Arwen, you're getting her. That's what happens when you mess with the characters. One change leads to another...What did you all expect from PJ's Arwen. :rolleyes:

I think the whole Helm's Deep changes are a travesty. The Elves weren't asked to come and fight at Pelennor fields because ?Legolas? said that the elves of Mirkwood were already fighting their own war. Why would they be at Helm's Deep which is much farther away from their homeland??...Arwen anywhere other than Rivendell and engaged in any battle is a travesty in itself.

For those of you constantly defending and justifying PJ's "vision" with all his changes...I have a feeling that soon you will rue the day....As the Bible says (Though in a different context :) ) , "These are the beginning of sorrows". PJ has promised many more big changes to the next two movies.

chrome_rocknave

01-03-2002, 01:58 AM

Arwen,
Eowyn is not an elf...nor is she the same as Arwen...

If Arwen does come to fight at Helms Deep, I dont see how anyone could possibly defend PJ then... That isn't even "replacing a useless character with another character that needs to be explained better". I don't see what the big deal is about PJ and Arwen...why did he want to make her role so big, that it would overshadow everything else?!? Another thing, Legolas was the only elf fighting at Helms Deep...are they afraid that if the elves dont have a major fighting sequence in TT, viewers will forget what an elf is?

I agree with you HLGStrider....having Arwen there will destroy Eowyn's character!! Arwen will probably show up at Isengard, Rohan, and maybe even Mordor! Who knows...she seems to be popping up everywhere else that she doesn't belong! Argh....

HLGStrider

01-03-2002, 02:13 AM

I've been worried about Eowyn. It would be so easy to ruin her part. She's not some sort of "warrior princess". She's a sensitive creature with a broken heart... :( ...
I mean, with Arwen there she'd have a right to go balistic. The humans take the time to produce great heros like Aragorn and Beren and what happens to them? They marry elves... Sigh... Aragorn will be so afraid of his own "Warrior Princess" that he won't be able to be even as understanding and nice to Poor Eowyn as he was. He will try to be and he'll find Arwen's sword at his neck... Poor guy. I pity him more than Eowyn.

Asfaloth

01-03-2002, 02:17 AM

I hear Arwen flies in to Mordor and plucks Frodo and Sam off the slopes of Mount Doom at the end of ROTK. No, seriously, I am told that the Eowyn/Faramir romance will be beefed upin the movie.

HLGStrider

01-03-2002, 02:22 AM

I can imagine what "beefed up" means... Oh brother... Well, at least Aragorn won't be tempted to ruin his part by having a fling with Eowyn. Arwen and her sword will see to that. :rolleyes:

Lord Aragorn

01-03-2002, 04:02 AM

I think PJ wants to have Arwen play such a bigger role in the movie basically because there is not a whole lot of females in the books. I think he wants to add a little sex appeal to the film with Arwen looking all pretty, dashing in to check up on her man. That's my opinion anyway.

Lord Aragorn

01-03-2002, 04:11 AM

I wanted to add this to the hullaballu PJ has created with the characer of Arwen Evenstar and her role in the films. I would go so far as to say that Arwen falls while fighting the Lord of the Nazgul in Pelennor Fields as opposed to Eowyn fighting bravely in battle. Maybe PJ has some issue about the elves in which they MUST play a MUCH more important role in the films than in the books. Outside of Legolas and Lothlorien, PJ seems to want very badly to overplay elves importance in the War of the Ring.

Eonwe

01-03-2002, 04:12 AM

Why didn't he inflate Eowyn's role? What a babe! Now THAT's a warrior

D E R N H E L M rules!

I predict Arwen defeats the witch king! You heard it here first!:eek:

Lord Aragorn

01-03-2002, 04:15 AM

Actually, they heard it in my post first.... Look above you :)

Eonwe

01-03-2002, 04:24 AM

dang! I thought I had an exclusive! You've been interviewing my sources! :D

Ok, how about Arwen leads the last battle in front of the gates of Mordor! Or Arwen leads the forces of Rohan? Or Arwen finds the sapling of the tree?

Lord Aragorn

01-03-2002, 04:34 AM

I think that Arwen will lead the Hobbits in rebellion against Saruman and his henchmen in the Shire.:D

Arwen

01-03-2002, 07:01 AM

Lets hope Arwen does ALL those things :)......cool flying in and saving Frodo at MT Doom....cant wait to see that.

Asfaloth

01-03-2002, 07:21 AM

Eeeek!

chrome_rocknave

01-03-2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Arwen
Lets hope Arwen does ALL those things :)......cool flying in and saving Frodo at MT Doom....cant wait to see that.

Please, tell me you're kidding.....

Arwen

01-03-2002, 11:35 PM

No im not, the changes to her character have been made......, instead of complaining for the next 3 years everytime a LOTR movie comes out im just gonna enjoy it.Just becuase you think it's bad...doesnt mean other will :)

Asfaloth

01-04-2002, 01:31 AM

I'm starting to understand why some of the "oldies" on this forum get so crotchety!

Thorin

01-04-2002, 01:35 AM

Arwen, you're going to get mad at me again, but I can't help it. You continually force me to say something by your opinions....

Your lack of sanctity concerning the plot and characters of what Tolkien wrote and intended staggers me...It tells me that you don't really care about keeping things true to the story, or you haven't read it enough times to really internalize the elements of LoTR and become a true fan. You seem to me to be a fan of the movie rather than a fan of Tolkien.

Arwen

01-04-2002, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by Thorin
Arwen, you're going to get mad at me again, but I can't help it. You continually force me to say something by your opinions....

Your lack of sanctity concerning the plot and characters of what Tolkien wrote and intended staggers me...It tells me that you don't really care about keeping things true to the story, or you haven't read it enough times to really internalize the elements of LoTR and become a true fan. You seem to me to be a fan of the movie rather than a fan of Tolkien.

Your always down my back :(.......i love the book....i love the movie....i can live with changes in the story when it comes on the big screen, its not a HUGE issue with me.Thats it....yes Arwen was changed, yes i liked the change.......and?.....is that such a bad thing?...maybe for you.....but not for me.:)

chrome_rocknave

01-04-2002, 03:36 AM

My head hurts......

Arwen, have you read The Two Towers and The Return of the King b/c I remember that you said somewhere on here that you read FOTR...?

Arwen

01-04-2002, 10:24 AM

Yeah i read the FOTR...im half way through TTT :)

DGoeij

01-04-2002, 03:45 PM

Arwen at Helms Deep, together with a batalion of Mirkwood elves.
Oh great, probably she also delivers Anduril, so Aragron can do his 'on the wall scene', pointing his sword to the sky, shouting I AM THE POWER, instead of babbling about what a new moring could bring.

Why not let Arwen the Mighty, piggy-ride Frodo into Mordor, tossing him with Ring and all into the fires of mount Doom, while Sam is being eaten by Shelob?
Merry gets slain by the Lord of the Nazgul, so Arwen gets the chance to stick a sword up the neck of the number one ringwraight.
Pippin ends up as a M.I.A. after the battle at the Morannon (big Olog-Hai, very hungry, small hobbit, y'know).
No hobbits returning home, no need for a scouring of the Shire.
Or am I letting go my sarcasm too much?

HLGStrider

01-04-2002, 10:54 PM

How about Aragorn falls down fighting at the gates (Knocked out but not cut cause we don't want to ruin his looks... ). With a cry of rage, Arwen rushes at the Mouth of Sauron and slays him. (Yelling something about nobody touching her man...). Then Aragorn, in graditude, offers her the throne of Gondor. She says that's okay, because Elrond died and she is going to inherit all of middle earth. She rules til the end of her days as the great Elfin queen and starts a home for vetren elf warrior princesses...

I am getting sick of girls doing things in movies and books they wouldn't do in real life. If she does fly to Mordor to rescue Frodo I will throw something at the screen....

Asfaloth

01-04-2002, 11:16 PM

No fear, HLG Strider. I just made up the flying to Mordor thing as a bit of what I thought would be obvious sarcasm. And I too am sick of women doing things in movies that they wouldn't do in real life (and I'm a woman and no wimp either).

HLGStrider

01-04-2002, 11:28 PM

I'm also a woman... Well... A girl anyway. Though I won't go as far as saying I'm not a whimp.
Elrond would never have let Arwen fight. Aragorn might've had some colorful words to say on it. We already of Eowyn to fight for the rights of women (Not that I feel my rights need to be fought for... I suppose she was just fighting for her own rights. Eowyn was great.) . Why couldn't Arwen stay home and save face???????
Everyone seemed to be considering your "fly to mordor" suggestion very seriously. Nothing from Hollywood will surprise me.

Asfaloth

01-04-2002, 11:40 PM

Ah, I would not go so far as to presume that Elrond or Aragorn would forbid Arwen to do anything. C'mon, she's thousands of years old.

HLGStrider

01-04-2002, 11:58 PM

Yeah...
You know Arwen was robbing the cradel with Aragorn... to say the least. It's not often that a man marries a woman almost twothousand years his senior...

chrome_rocknave

01-05-2002, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by Arwen
Yeah i read the FOTR...im half way through TTT :)

Thats good :) I'm glad that you take an interest in the books also, although I may disagree with you on certain aspects of the film. I hope that you will finish reading all the books before the next movie so that maybe you will see what I mean about the changes made....? I just dont see how you would want Arwen to do everything in the movie...?

Arwen

01-05-2002, 07:47 AM

I dont want Arwen doing everything....i just dont care if they place her in battles somewhere, ok...they changed her role to a warrior kind of lady...so why not just go with it.

DGoeij

01-06-2002, 02:20 PM

I have no problems with a expanded Arwen role. It's just all too much overdone, Arwens expansion interferes too much with other characters. Frodo's part becomes from struggeling with the wound and finding the deep-hobbit strength within im, to a sack full of potatoes in the lap of an Elven warrioness. Not something to approve, IMHO.

Silme

01-08-2002, 06:04 PM

Ooohh noooo... please.... Arwen just CAN'T steal the slaying of Nazgul from Eowyn!!!! :eek: It's one of the best scenes in the book IMHO.... "You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him." So great. Arwen should stay in Rivendell and only come to Minas Tirith for the wedding, and not run around ME fighting. As I've said elsewhere, the Arwen in the movie is nothing like "my Arwen", and never will be.

Lord T

01-12-2002, 01:01 AM

I dont really care for the changes made in the movies that are totally off of the way they were portrayed in the book. Im watching the movies and enjoying them to the fullest just because they have the name 'Lord of the Rings' in the title. :)

I have read the books many times over and theyll always make me imagine them the same. When i read the books three years from now i wont think of how Eomer looked in the movie when i get to the chapters about Rohan. Ill always have my own personal imagination and even if one of us, Tolkien freaks :), made the movies they still wouldnt satisfy every single one of us.

So im kinda with Arwen on this one. Im enjoying the movies however they are because i know that the real McCoy is always downstairs on my shelf ready to picked up again. :)

These movies, however unfaithful they may be, are doing more good then harm. So bring on the Burger King cups and the inevitable video games because if these things will make even a handful of people pick up the books for the first time then they are worth it imo.

DGoeij

01-12-2002, 02:45 PM

Welcome to the forum Lord T.

You're right about that. Ever since the rumors of this movie have been growing and now it finally is in the cinema, friends of mine are almost standing in line to lend my pocket versions of the Hobbit and FOTR, TTT and ROTK.
That is the greates good these films wil do.

It's just that I feel that some of the changes I've seen, weren't changes that added anything and some even had a negative impact on the original story. IMHO, the expanded Arwen role was overdone, for example. It's an opinion I wish to share on a forum like this, to find out what other fans thought of it.

Hope to see you around.:)

PRH

01-12-2002, 06:20 PM

PRH

01-17-2002, 01:18 AM

just hoping for comments (so I thought I'd bring this thread to the top again)

HLGStrider

01-20-2002, 10:47 PM

I've already done enough harm here.... Anyone else?

DGoeij

01-21-2002, 10:56 AM

I'll help with keeping it up top. But I have no serious understanding about why there should be elves at the battle at Helms Deep. Maybe to make up for the hurry-up Lothlorien in FOTR?

Legolam

01-21-2002, 12:51 PM

Were people being serious about arwen slaying the witch king?

If they were, will that not seriously mess up Eowyn and Faramir's love affair in the houses of healing?

Asfaloth

01-21-2002, 05:10 PM

Don't worry, they weren't serious.

Snaga

01-21-2002, 11:40 PM

Just to worry you there is a saying: "Many a true word spoken in jest"!!

ReadWryt

01-22-2002, 02:30 AM

Does anyone know why elves will be at Helm's Deep? Can it be solely to expand Arwen's role? I don't think so. There has to be more to it that that. Is it just to give elves more screen time in the movies? I can't imagine PJ making such a change for a reason like that (even in spite of all of his changes we've seen in FOTR)(besides, what about more dwarf time then?). Are they gonna show up to save the day or will some plot point be furthered or fulfilled with their aid at Helm's Deep? I just don't see the point. Does anyone have any knowledge or comments on this (besides the usual 'PJ is crazy' type remark)?

Wait...you can't imagine Jackson changing the scene because he wants to give ELVES more time on screen, but it's acceptable that he gave ARWEN a buch of screen time to give a WOMAN more time on screen? I fail to see how one can underestimate the semi-random whim of Jackson in deciding what changes will go into this movie.

I think what happens is that Elrond will have been said not to want Arwen to go to Helm's Deep alone on her quest to deliver Narsil to Aragorn, so he will have sent her with a contingent of armed protectors...all Male Elves mind you, because Arwen in the ONLY elven Warrior Princess in all of Middle-earth. This is all speculation mind you, but I wouldn't be surprised if I am more then half correct.

DGoeij

01-22-2002, 02:16 PM

I'm afraid you are way too close.

So the elvish Secret Service brings Arwen to a raging battle, let her ride into the middle of the turmoil (of course she escapes from them, being so brave and valiant) and let her hack up her share of orcs. Hurray!

Some snappy lines to Gandalf, not to forget:
What took you so long?

Gandalf:
Traffic, Isengard is a mess at Ent-hour you know.

Oops. I gave away the humoristic parts.
And then what, will she accompany Aragorn from there all the way? Encouraging him to take the Paths of Dead, becoming King of Gondor etc etc. In that case she will still be able to take on the Witch-King, since she kicked Eowyn's b**t at Edoras before that. And plenty of time left to help Frodo climb Mount Doom.

We'll be true to the book!;)

Greenwood

01-22-2002, 03:33 PM

because Arwen in the ONLY elven Warrior Princess in all of Middle-earth

ReadWryt

Everytime I find you (or anyone else) sayng the above I will point to Luthien Tinuviel, Arwen's ancestor who vanquished Sauron and Morgoth. Now, there was an elven warrior princess!!

PRH

01-22-2002, 07:33 PM

I don't know...

If Arwen shows up to give Aragorn Anduril at Helm's Deep, she must show up mid-battle and give it to him afterwards.

http://www.numenoreen.com/Images/HDRAragorn.jpg

Aragorn has clearly already been fighting in this picture. The very next fight Aragorn should get in will be Helm's Deep. Aragorn is not holding Anduril here, but rather the same sword he used throughout FOTR. You can tell by the hilt - Narsil had a very distinctive hilt.

So if Arwen is coming to Aragorn just to deliver Anduril, then she and her posse will probably save the day while they're at it.

MAYBE....the part when Gandalf comes back in the book with Erkenbrand's host will be replaced with Gandalf returning with the host of elves? This change I could possibly get on board with (a little). It would be really hard to convey in a movie where in the world Erkenbrand's forces came. I just hope the Huorns still really save the day.

ANB614

02-01-2002, 02:24 AM

I like movies based on books, after all they ARE someone's interpretation of the books. I like seeing how their version compares to the one in my head. But heck, the book I read didn't have Arwen being so involved. I think the movie would have been just as good if they had they not given her such an extensive role. I took my sister, who likes romance movies and dislikes movies that "can't be real" and she was captivated. She loved the movie, and I'm sure she would have loved it without the little love scene. I don't know why PJ did what he did. :-P Who cares about the small roles of women in the novels? That's how it's written, people fell in love with the LOTR regardless, and I'm pretty sure they'd still like it that way... being true fans and all. The movie still rocked, but why did they need Arwen? :)
Maybe they wanted to keep from introducing more characters among the many people have to know already (with multiple names)... could it have been for the unknowing, non-book-reading viewers? Just ranting... sorry