The Hobbit as a Religious parable

[yes]

Alright, this may seem kind of strange, but me and my friend were arguing about the Hobbit and I need some help proving my point.
You see, I think that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings was essentially a parable about the typical idea of religion(most notably the Christian story). But he doesn't believe me. So if anyone can please help me I would very grateful. All I need is something like a quote from Tolkien about how the story was in fact religious or some evidence to help support my claim. Or ever just your own opinion would be helpful.

Please Help! Anything you can say would be great!!!!!

[ReadWryt]

Firstly let me inform you that a thread need only be posted once.


In the letter to Milton Waldman which J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in 1951, which later was published as the preface to the Silmarillon, the author stated...

"..I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of it's own (bound up with it's tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingrediant) in legends of other lands. There were the Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic Scandinavian and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerfull as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with the English; and it does not replace what I felt missing. For one thing it's `faerie` is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherant and repetitive. For another and more important thing it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.

...he later goes on in the same letter to state...

I disslike Allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language.

therefore one can pretty well assume that the Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings were NOT allegorical retellings of Christian stories at all...in fact I would look to the Finnish and Scandinavian Mythologies were I looking to find ties to Tolkien's works, as there are many more simiarities there...

[Eowyn]

I've been looking for a book ( can't find it, but I will!!)
about scandinavian legends, and curiously I found there all the
names of the dwarves, well maybe not bombur, but nearly all
the others,so I think that Tolkien actually inspired himself
in Scandinavian legends.When I find the book I'll tell you
the title if you're interested.

[Beorn]

Well, from the foreword of my FotR (an older copy w/ a copyright from 1973). I didn't feel like typing, so I put 'em on the web

http://www.atlantisrealm.f2s.com/1.jpg
http://www.atlantisrealm.f2s.com/2.jpg

[Talierin]

All of Tolkien's works are not allegory, except Leaf by Niggle, which is an allegory about Tolkien and death. But because they are not allegory doesn't mean that they are completly non-religious. They have a lot of Christian overtones to them, while still retaining the old myths. Tolkien was a deeply spiritual and strong Catholic Christian, and that is the basis for the religious side of his works.
A really good book on this subject is Tolkien Man and Myth, by Joseph Pearce.

[ReadWryt]

My first assumption would be that, Tolkien's relationship with CS Lewis being as it was, were the Middle-earth stories at all religious or even inspired by religion, they would not have leaned so heavily upon the strength of the individual. Nowhere in the stories is there mention of Faith in something external being needed for success. Frodo has faith in his friends, yes, but ultimately it is his faith in himself which is the foundation for his journey comming so close to success. His failure had nothing to do with any Lack of Faith, so were these tales Religious in nature at all, they fail miserably...

[Talierin]

I don't think they fail. But then again, they are not religious in the way I think you're thinking of. There is hardly any mention of any specific religion, yet they are still deeply Christian in nature, not overly, but it's there all the same, if you look for it. I will say they are more good vs. evil than religious, but Tolkien's viewpoint of good and evil is a Christian one.
Kind of like Brian Jacques' Redwall series. There is no mention of any religion in them, they are all about good vs. evil

[ReadWryt]

..and for every "religious" element one might point out to me, I can point to an equal in mythologies that predate Christianity, but for true christian parable as the person who started this thread seeks confirmation of FAITH of a sort would be needed. None is seen in any of the Middle-earth tales. In his Narnia series, C.S. Lewis' Aslan is the one all have faith in...the "Jesus" figure, and these I think more closely fit the mold our fellow member si looking for.

Anakin Skywalker was born by Imaculate Conception, Obi Wan died and in a sense rose again...Luke succeeds through a "faith" in a greater power then himself...yet George Lucas would be the first to say that there is no conscious Christian allegory in the Star Wars stories.

If anything, Frodo is a good example of what would have happened had Christ shirked his destiny with the cross. Instead of throwing the ring into the smouldering hell of the Mountain, he took it for himself...gave in to it's dark draw and nearly undid in one moment all that the Fellowship had worked so hard for. In fact, were it not for the more powerfull greed of Smeagol, and his clumseyness, the ring would indeed have fallen into the hands of the dark one and all would have been darkness and death in Middle-earth. Frodo failed, having only faith in himself, as Christ would have failed had he decided to sneak out of the garden while the apostles slept under the olive trees...

[Kementari]

I don't think Frodo failed, I just think that proves that it took more than one person to destroy the Ring (though Frodo had the biggest part), and at the end they were all hobbits. Frodo wouldn't have made it out of Emyn Muil without Sam! (acually he wouldn't have made it into Moria), and the Ring wouldnt have been destoryed without Gollum... It is amazing that Frodo made it as far as he did without breaking...

There are more examples than just Frodo in the books: Gandalf was reserected; and also when Shelob was about to kill Sam he called on a higher Power (Elbereth) to save him...
Since Tolkien was Christian it is only natural that his characters would seem Christian.
I don't think there is any hidden religous message in the story...

[Telchar]

Originally posted by Arwen
I've been looking for a book ( can't find it, but I will!!)
about scandinavian legends, and curiously I found there all the
names of the dwarves, well maybe not bombur, but nearly all
the others,so I think that Tolkien actually inspired himself
in Scandinavian legends.When I find the book I'll tell you
the title if you're interested.

This might be what your looking for;
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93

[Thorondor]

In my opinion there is very little in the way of religion in these books. And what there is of is not very christian because of the mixture of Mono and Polytheistic gods. Like there is "God"=Iluvatar, and there is "Satan"=Melko, who fell; but there is also the Valar and Maiar, who are(this is really a bad word to describe them) Pagan Gods themselves. Such as Manwe, Varda, Yavanna, Orome, Ulmo, Osse, Aule, etc. They in themselves are more worshiped in ME(than Eru) like at the Council of Elrond praising Elbereth, and the Men of Numenor who gave a monment of silence to the Lords of the West, and feared Osse and his rage at sea. But even they, on a whole are not widely worshipped either.
JMO :)

[ReadWryt]

Kem,

Even Tolkien commented on on the importance of Frodo's failure...

[Iluvatar]

Frodo most definitely failed. His heroism comes in getting so far. On another thread it asks whether we find some bits of the tome a bit dragging. The part I found the most painful to read was all the bits where Frodo is whining about the weight of the Ring. However, I at that time missed the point. The writing is as it is precisely so as to show us how much of a burden and a struggle it was for Frodo, and how much it took out of him to get as far as he did. However, his heroism in getting as far as he did aside, he ultimately failed. If Gollum doesn't misstep, then all is lost.

On my last reading of LoTR I concentrated a bit on the role of the Valar. I had been fairly contemptuous of the Valar in the past (especially Manwe), but after reading LoTR this last time I begin to become convinced that they played an active (though distant) role in the War of the Ring. Perhaps they played some small part in pushing Gollum over the edge? I think not, but it bears thinking.

[Thorondor]

They(the Valar) where definitly there. Who turned back the dark skies over Gondor? Manwe. Who gave Sam and Frodo that last drink of water from the tiny stream in Mordor? Ulmo. Who gave them hope throught the stars and light? Elbereth.
And also one of my favorite parts of the book when Saruman is killed and his apperition forms over Bag End looking to the last Light of the West for a sign and a stiff west wind from Manwe sending off into east.

[yes]

Alright, all of these arguements are well founded, but I still can't get past my original feeling that due to Tolkiens love of religion these tales must be in there own right religious. And not only must they be religious, but they must also reflect the religion of Tolkien. I'm not sure if the intention was Christianity, but many of the elements of the story do seem Christian. Iluvator as God, Melko as satan, Higher powers such as Elerbeth, Frodo as a mixed up Christ figure, and Gandalfs resurection all point to the underlying idea of Christianity.

Also, the quote by Tolkien which was provided, doesn't seem to provide an answer either. Perhaps I just didn't quite understand it, but wasn't Tolkien still somewhat hinting at a religious influence(perhaps not allegorical)? I would definately say yes. If only there were any more straight forward quotes by the man himself, then maybe we could get a better idea for what he was really trying to say.

[ReadWryt]

Well unless you can quote me when Christ walked the soil of England, then you can assume that there was no Conscious allegory elluding to Christianity. Somehow though I had a feeling that no amount of evidence would convince you of that belief to which you desire to cling so tenaciously...

[Beorn]

I think that Gandalf hold the most christian overtone in all the books how he says to Frodo that you cant kill gollum and how we have no power to say who dies and live and not to deal out death.
So it is a christian overtone but it doesnt preach n e religon in general just more morals than n e thing
To be the man, You have to beat the man

[Ancalagon]

If anything, I beleive it is anti-religion and offers more in the way of promoting druidism and associated pagan beliefs.

[Talierin]

You are most certainly wrong, Ancalagon. If you had read anything about Tolkien himself, you would know that Christianity permiates just about everything he ever wrote. Not in an allegorical sense though, as some people on here are trying to say. It is impossible to write anything without your worldview showing in it, and Tolkien's Christian one is definately in LOTR and the others. To understand what the place of religion and myth is in LOTR and the others, you must understand Tolkien's philosophy. Some quotes from Tolkien: Man and Myth,(TMM) by Joseph Pearce (I suggest you read it):

Anne Atkins-- ....And his Christianity shines through every page (of LOTR). He understands evil, for instance, and the way it seduces us, as it seduced Gollum, with its promise of goodness. How eventually, if we give in to it, it corrodes our freedom and will and individuality.... Tolkien was truly a Christian novelist, who wrote a great Christian myth.
....Tolkien's Christian faith informed all his writing, and his heroes were based on a greater hero still. One who wasn't flawed, and didn't give way to evil. One who didn't have A-levels either, but who is the perfect role model.

When he witnessed to C.S. Lewis, and Lewis accepted Christianity, Tolkien laid bare the heart of all his writings, the core of his beliefs and theology. This is out of TMM, and is a quote from Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien:

...After dinner the three men (Tolkien, Lewis, and Hugo Dyson) went for a walk beside the river and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths are 'lies and thereforth worthless, even though breathed through silver'.
'No,' said Tolkien, 'They are not lies.'
At that moment, Lewis later recalled, there was 'a rush of wind which came so suddenly on the still, warm evening and sent so many leaves pattering down that we thought it was raining. We held our breath.'
Tolkien resumed, arguing that myths, far from being lies, were the best way of conveying truths which would otherwise be inexpressible. We have come from god, Tolkien argued, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, whereas materialistic 'progress' leads only to the abyss and to the power of evil.;
'In expounding this belief in the inherant truth of mythology,' wrote Humphrey Carpenter, 'Tolkien had laid bare the center of his philosophy as a writer, the creed that is at the heart of The Silmarillion (and other works).
Lewis listened as Dyson reiterated in his own way what Tolkien had said.
Building on this philosophy of myth, Tolkien and Dyson went on to express their belief that the story of Christ is simply a true myth, a myth that works in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened. This revelation changed Lewis's whole conception of Christianity.

Joseph Pearce--Now, five years later, it seemed that Tolkien was making sense of it all. He had shown that pagan myths were, in fact, God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using the images of their 'mythpoeia' to reveal fragments of His eternal truth. yet, most astonishing of all, Tolkien maintained that Christianity wa exactly the same except for the enormous difference that the poet who invented it was God Himself, and the images He used were real men and actual history. The death and ressurection of Christ was the real Dying God, with a precise and verifiable location in history and definate historical consequences. The old myth had become a fact while still retaining the character of a myth.

A letter from Lewis to Arthur Greeves:

Now the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremedous difference that it really happened: and one must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God's myth where the others are men's myths: i.e. the Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through what we call 'real things'. Therefore it is true, not in the sense of being a 'description' of God (that no finite mind could take in) but in the sense of being the way in which God chooses to (or can) appear to our faculities. The 'doctrines' we get out of the true myth are of course less true: they are translations into our concepts and ideas of that which God has already expressed in a language more adequate, namely the actual incarnation, crucifixion, and ressurection.

Stratford Caldecott, in 'Tolkien, Lewis, and Christian Myth'--Tolkien once wrote that 'legends and myths are largely made of "truth", and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, ed. H. Carpenter, London, 1981, no. 131). In one popular meaning of the word, as we all know, a 'myth' is simply a story that is not true. Like Tolkien, however, I will be using the word in almost an opposite sense, to designate the kind of sumbolic story that is intended to express truth. The truth that myths are designed to express concerns not only in the world around us, but the world within us; not so much its surface appearance, but its inner form. For a myth is a way of describing the rules by which the world is made -- 'deep magic from before the dawn of time'.

Sister Mary Anthony Weinig, in the University of Portland Review-- Bedrock reality of human values and spiritual truth comes to light under the probing of rays beyond the ordinary spectrum of the naturalistic novel, and a vision emerges whose depth and wholeness stagger an imagination fed on fragments the symbolic situation of Charles Williams, the allegorical narritive of C.S. Lewis, and the mythic rendering of J.R.R. Tolkien.

You know, I could probably write the entire book down here, but that would take me forever, so I suggest you read it yourself. It can be found at www.ignatiuspress.com , I believe, and it explains a lot about Tolkien and what he believed in.

But the point of all this is that Tolkien wrote a myth that expresses the truths of the true myth, the myth of Christ, which is true, as I believe. He uses some of the Pagan myths, true, but he uses them in a way as to express Christianity’s truth. Stephen R. Lawhead says it about the best in this quote:
...the lessons I learned from Lewis and Tolkien penetrated deep into my psyche -- deeper than emulation, deeper than imatation. In short, it was not Tolkien’s style or subject matter that influenced me; it was the integrity of the work itself.
I found this same integrity in Lewis’s space tales. Taken together, these books possesed an inner worth that far exceeded the naritive skills of their authors. [I]Perelandra and The Lord of the Rings seemed to me more in total than the simple sum of their parts. These books, I concluded, derived their value chiefly from this inner worth, this integrity that lay behind the stories themselves. But what was it?
It was, of course, the Christian faith of the authors shining through the fabric of their work. I saw that faith informed the story, and infused it with value and meaning, lifting the tale above the ordinary expressions of the genre. Even though the stories of Lewis and Tolkien, or the other Inklings like Charles Williams, were not explicitly promoting Christianity, nevertheless the books were ripe with it.
What an extraordinary thing, I thought; though Tolkien makes never so much as a glancing reference to Jesus Christ in a single paragraph of all The Lord of the Rings’ thick volumes, His face is glimpsed on virtually every page. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is the furthest thing from a religious tract, yet it proclaims a clear and winning gospel. In my narrow experience, I had never before encountered such a thing.

If you do not understand what I am trying to say here, then tell me what you do not understand please, and I will elaborate.

[Frito]

This is very interesting to say the least!

[Ancalagon]

Ok Talierin, ordinarily I do not rise to such rhetoric, especially that which is one-sided and biased. How you arrive at the notion any of Tolkiens writings as Christian parables is beyond me entirely. Yet again, you have pasted a wealth of quotes and not yet formed a solid opinion of your own, based squarely on your understanding of his works.

I agree there is an undertone throughout all Tolkiens major works based on the notion of the eternal struggle of good against evil, yet there ends the comparison with Christianity. Yet it seems that many of these quotes come from Christians who are are simply justifying Tolkien in a Christian sense because of their love for the authors works and their dismay at associating themselves with a work of blatant myth and magic. It is easy to quote paragraph after paragraph from a one-sided view of the author, yet it is another to design and bolster a comparative arguement of ones own. I do not doubt Tolkiens view of the world and his belief in Christ, I do not doubt that his work may even reflect shades of his own understanding of the Christian struggle throughout the ages. As a Christian parable with deep christian undertones in his writings I am firmly against.

Tolkien has created a series of works that are as far removed from religion and church doctrine as all wealthy churches are to the teaching of Christ himself. For goodness sake, any religion on this earth could associate itself to Tolkien, the struggle of good against evil, the creation story, the destruction of evil. All major religions hold to these theories as their base. All beleif systems are founded on the understanding that we were created and have one or more gods to thank. Yet Tolkien wrote of a world inhabited by gods, similar to that of Norse legend, of wizardry and spell-casting not akin or acceptable to any widely acknowledged theology and of elves and mythical creatures not in the likeness of our one god, yet he held them in higher esteem than mankind itself.
He is a Chrsitian, but he did not create a world where religion was acknowledged or discussed. I hold Christian beliefs, yet I would never compare this or any other author writings to the story of Christ or the teachings of God. The bible is the word of God through Jesus Christ. The works of Tolkien are a creation of myth and fantasy, in a world where religion played no role or had no foundation.
Read with blinkered vision if you must, but do not try to associate everything in Tolkiens work as Christian parable or reasoning. I became a Christian long after reading his work, my own witness is one that amazes me still, yet as I read Tolkien, at no time do I ever feel overwhelmed with a cozy warm feeling of Christianity, it simply does not exist in any form other than I thank God for creating such a talented author.

[Talierin]

Okay, just forget the quotes. I can see that they are one sided, but I was trying to show how Tolkien viewed myth, for that is what most of his books are, myth. And if you don't understand how Tolkien viewed the subject of what his books are, then it's hard to grasp the concept behind them.

Let's not bring the Church into this, okay. The Church is not the authority on Christianity, the Bible is. I meant Christianity by the basic beliefs, like that Christ died and rose again, etc.

I'm not saying that there is religious rituals in any of his books, Christian or otherwise, cause there isn't any. Nor did I say that I think that they are Christian parables. I don't believe that they are, nor do I think that they have any specific religion in them. They ARE NOT ALLEGORY either!!! I think that point is completly agreed upon, and we need to look at this without that obstructing our thinking.
I also do not deny the obvious pagan myths in his books.
What I'm trying to say is that a lot of his morals and views on good vs. evil, paganism, myth, etc, are Christian in origin, not pagan, and it shows in his books, again, without any religious rituals, allegory, etc. You can see his very strong morals and opinions on things in his books. I think what Tolkien did is take the old myths, which he loved, and rewrote them in a way that is totally different than anything we will ever see again, a way that has a lot more of his Christian views on certain things breathed into them than the originals, without making them 'religious' or 'preachy'. This makes the books a mixture of Christian and pagan, without being heretical to either side. The myths are pagan, but the views are Christian, you could say. You can view the books just as good vs. evil tales, true, but you can also follow how Tolkien got his views on good and evil, which often helps me to understand the theology behind his views on certain things.
Take the Valar, for instance. The Valar are not gods, nor are they angels. They are revered by the elves, but never are they actually worshipped. They're more of a mixture between the pagan gods and the Catholic saints. The elves (and hobbits) seem to call upon them for help just as a Catholic might his patron saint. But you can't ignore them being similar to the Greek, Roman, and Norse gods, though. This is what I mean by Tolkien's books being halfway between Christianity and paganism. It's almost as if Tolkien was reconciling the two things he loved, Pagan stories and Christianity.

I can believe that Tolkien wrote the books just as stories and myths, but try as anyone might, it's hard to write anything without your worldview being behind your writing. Subconciously or not, Tolkien's Christian worldview is written in.

I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense, I find this all very hard to explain. It's cause I've never actually written what I believe about Tolkien out on paper (or comp, that is!). I know what I think in my head, it's just getting it written out that's hard. I tend to reason with myself on paper too, so if there's something contradictory in this, sorry.

[Ancalagon]

Dont worry about bringing the church into any arguement Talierin, it is wealthy enough, strong enough and corrupt enough to stand up for itself.
As for your arguement, I much prefer when you reason and debate your own feelings than rhyme off quotes from non-descript and biased inadequates. You have a bettter understanding of your grasp of Tolkiens work than anyone, I am glad you were able to portray that. As for our original debate, is Tolkiens work a Christian parable or have deep Christian undertones, that seems to have shifted to whether his writings were based on Christian morals. Again, I must debate the origins of morality, for again most religions on this small blue rock have deep moral beginnings. The concept of Christianity is late in its development and again is based on the teachings of The Old Testament. Does Tolkien develop a story based on Christian moral viewpoints, no I do not beleive that he does, I think he simply applies standard morals that are akin to all (or at least most) of humankind. However, if you accept and beleive this in the authors work as your understanding of his meaning, then I do not disagree with you. Your opinion is as solid, valid and worthwhile as any other observer.

[Iluvatar]

I must commend Ancalagon and Talierin on an extremely well-reasoned and well-argued debate. I am humbled.

Talierin, by stating that the Bible is the 'authority' on Christianity do you not lower it to the status of a Golden Calf in the desert. The Bible is an amazingly important book and one that Christians should use a guide, but literal interpretations of it have been and remain a source of evil in our world. The Bible was ultimately written by people, in all their fallibleness, and it was still more people that decided what writ was to become part of the Bible. And the cutoff point is almost two centuries ago. What about St. Augustine? What about Kierkegaard? Read the Bible. Understand the Bible. But don't blindly rely on the Bible as your 'authority.' Each of us (who bother) come upon our own understanding and relationship with our deity, and our understandings - our relationships - are no less valid than are those of those people who wrote what later became Holy Writ.

[Talierin]

Alright, no one touch this thread until I get back!!!! I will answer both of you when I get back.

[ReadWryt]

I think what we have here is a touch of confusion. The starter of the thread asked if Tolkien's works were Parables, and you all seem, from your posts, to be agreeing they are not. I think what is happening here is the niggling tug of war over how far to one side or the other the stories are influenced by the Author's Christianity, which most certainly they would be.

I don't care if it is a secular story of good vs. evil written by a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan or Ancient Roman...the author has their own personal experience of what describes "Good" and what describes "Evil" to relate the tale.

That's just the impression I get of where this is going...*Shrug*

As for the Bible being the one and only authority, I really don't know...I'm not aware of anything in the Bible that says that because the Apostles didn't have them...

[Beorn]

I think that they are parables in the sort...kinda like Jesus told them but Tolkein spoke to a better aduience that was educated so they were better and if you look in them you will see that they are tell good and basic morals but those morals are also held by christians and Tolkein meant it mose likely, like that way...I also feel that all religons stem from basic Druidism like religons cause druidism was first so there are ideas added to them all.

[Ancalagon]

Can I breathe out now Talierin?

[Thorin]

I don't believe that The Hobbit or LoTR was meant to be a Christian parable, nor do I believe it is. I think the real question is (at least for me as a Christian school teacher who could get flak for bringing something like this into school), is it pagan or anti-christian? I don't believe that it is.
It is fantasy, it is fable so you will expect the extra-ordinary, but just because it is fantasy, that does not mean it is anti-christian. For example:

1)The characters are either inherently good or inherently evil. You don't have Frodo, Sam, or Aragorn lying, cheating, stealing (etc)
2) It shows that evil corrupts everything, even the landscape and good people (Boromir, and almost Frodo).
3) Any real magic done or supernatural power shown is done by Maia, who were created as "angelic" beings from the beginning (Gandalf and Sauron).
4) The elves were created with extraordinary talents that was part of their nature, created by Eru. They didn't understand the word "magic". They didn't call on any demon or witch for their "powers"
5) It's monotheistic (one God)
6) Ultimately in the battle of good vs evil, good will ultimately triumph.

I believe that Christians should not be afraid to promote and read Tolkien's works. I believe some of the above criteria separates Tolkien's work from say, Harry Potter, which I believe is quite anti-christian and promotes witchcraft more than good fantasy.

[Ancalagon]

Good point, well put!

[Ciryaher]

Please keep in mind that this is a discussion of The Hobbit, and not LotR or Silm. I don't think the Hobbit has any religious bearing whatsoever and is simply an adventure. Now if you look at LotR, more elements of good and evil, right and wrong, and soforth arise. Ainuindale very closely follows the general idea of Creation according to Genesis, but the 'general idea' of Creation exists in most other religions as well, and the Bible certainly doesn't mention Ainur or The Music (I doubt the Bible would mention such things anyway, if they were so).

The point is, many things seem to be one thing, but only because we try to bend it and stick it to what we already know.

[Gothmog]

My view is that because Tolkin left out religion and kept to Good v Bad or Light v Darkness, he allowed the reader to view it in any light. No doubt readers of other religions than Christianity can see much of what they believe in these stories.

[ReadWryt]

Gothmog:

One of my earliest points indeed, which I stated by quoting Tolkien himself. His distain for the Canterbury Tales and Arthurian Legend was that they had as a core Christianity, and his goal in creating Middle-earth was to fill the void where no real English (ie British) mythology existed.

[Gothmog]

ReadWryt, I totally agree, But it allows others to have fun trying to prove their points about religion in the stories doesn't it.:D ;)

[ReadWryt]

Actually, I LIKE the ambiguity in this aspect of his writings. Being an agnostic Comparative Mythologist, I cherish the fact that people see their own faith in stories of Good and Evil. It means that the core principals that the religions were based on are still the fundimental focus...if you take my meaning. I'm actually hoping someone brings me a legitimate quote from the "Old Man" saying that he wrote the story not only to entertain, but to nudge people to Christianity without hitting them over the Soul with a Sledgehammer of Witness...It would raise my opinion of the Tolkien even more!

[tookish-girl]

I'm not sure if this was already said as I haven't read through all of the thread, but I think that Tolkien and C. S. Lewis were once talking to each other and actually decided to write a book on their beliefs. The result was the Lion, the witch and the wardrobe and Lord of the Rings apparently.

However, I was told this in a sermon by my vicar a few years back and he may have been just trying to make it all seem relevant to day, as I know Tolkien had been wanting to do Lord of the Rings after the Hobbit anyway. Still, apparently The Last Battle by Lewis is based on the book of Revelation in the Bible.

[Thorondor]

I found something that might help with your question, and it might not. I saw in my school's library a book on tolkien, and a chapter was titled the Christian King. I can't remember the name of the book off hand, but i will go look for it if i remember.

[ReadWryt]

In letter 165 in the year 2000 edition of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, he writes to his publisher the Houghton Mifflin Co. saying,

It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular or topical, moral, religious or political. The only critisism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion'(and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a Monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted.

..this he claims as his explaination as to what the Lord of the Rings 'is all about', and I suspect that it would apply to the Hobbit as well in so far as the matter of 'religious parable'.

[Grond]

All religion is based on FAITH! Faith in God or Allah or some sentient being or group of beings. Middle Earth totally lacked this one basic concept upon which all religion is based. Their own histories would have supported the knowledge of their own gods.

Elbereth Gilthoniel was real... Galadriel had seen her. Ulmo....real Melkor.....real Manwe.....real etc. etc.

Without the basic concept of faith in an unknown, all seeing, all being entity....there is no religion. So for you to portray that there is some relationship between TLOTR/ME and Christianity is a pretty slim argument. Think about it.... if everyone new that Jesus was the Son of God........everyone would be Christian. There would be no religion........just one solid faith that everyone knew was the correct one.

At least...... that's my opinion....

[ReadWryt]

In a letter to his publisher Houghton Mifflin, in response to a review
apparently, (Letter #165 in the Yr 2000 edition of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien) the author states...


The odd fact that there are no churches, temples and religious rites and ceremonies,is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Slimarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the "Third Age" was not a Christian world.


Conversely, about LotR, he wrote in a letter to Robert Murray, S.J. (#142 in yr2k Ed. TLoJ.R.R.T)


The Lord of The Rings is of course a fundimentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously so in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For th ereligious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.



and finally in a draft of a letter apparently never sent to Rhona Beare (#212 Y2K Ed. TLoJ.R.R.T) he wrote,


I suppose the difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Men is subsequent and a consequence (though a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of Angels': a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in it's nature, evil was brough in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the Rebellion of creatd free-will precedes the creation of the World...

This is at least the old guy's comments on Middle-earth in general...*Shrug*

[baggins]

I think that the LOTR was about WW2. Sauron was Hitler and Saurumen was Mussilini

[Greymantle]

Then you know nothing about Tolkien. NONE of his works were allegory, as he stated over and over and OVER!

[baggins]

i know, but thats what it seems like to me

[Greymantle]

Then I suppose that's your right. However, I am postive beyond a doubt on this-- many people have made the exact comparison you made, and Tolkien flatly and angrily rejected it many times.

[Grond]

Yeah. Yeah. Blah. Blah. And the ring was the atomic bomb and Sauron was Hitler and etc. etc. etc.

Much of the beginning of the LOTR was written before Hitler's real threat was known. The author's own statements time and time again state this.

Twenty years ago in college, I went through this same thing with a college professor and proved to him that Tolkien's writings were not the result of anything to do with WWII. I will say that I'm sure the book was shaded by Mr. Tolkien's own experiences both in WWI and WWII.

[Ancalagon]

I am surprised this debate is still going on. There have been some fairly conflicting arguements since it began, though it seems to me RWs quotes from the author pretty much seal the debate.

[ReadWryt]

I know Anc, silly old me...confusing the discussion with the Author's own words. *Snicker* I ended up acting in a similar way in the late 80's in a thread on a BBS when I made the brazen claim that much of the original Star Trek series was about the Vietnam War, only back then I had to really hunt to find quotes to back it up from Roddenbery.

[Ancalagon]

The joys of endless research never dims the mind!

[Aerin]

I don't know if my little input will be welcome, but nevertheless, here it is!

I will start off by saying that I am Christian.

When I read a fantasy book, I try to read it for what it is. I don't like reading meaning into books, unless they are obvious, like C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia . I have always read LOTR as a good fantasy book, and I have never tried to interpret a religious angle into it. I don't feel it's necessary to have a Christian angle on everything I read, in fact, sometimes it's refreshing to read a book written by an author with an entirely different perspective or religion.
Take, for example, Madeleine L'Engle's books. Some will say that her Wrinkle In Time series is an allegory of the Bible, and others will say that she promotes paganism. I have always read her stories as good fiction, without wondering if they were 'Christian'.
Call me what you will, but I do not feel a need to have everything I see or read to be 'Christian'. That's just how I feel about the subject.

[Proudfoots]

Why is it that people have to delve so deeply into a book to find their own meanings, when what is obvious is stated, obviously.
You could make connections (weakly) between almost every story in world mythology and Tolkien's works. Because most mythological works are vague. Many of these works contain the same themes, good vs evil, loss of innocense, temptation of power, love for ones friends.

my sister recently re-read the books from a homosexual perspective and found volumes of homoerotic language within the texts, because the language has changed in fifty years. don't get me wrong, i don't think that Tolkien was writing homosexually or homophobically. i am just saying that you can draw any conclusions you want from his works.

just some of them would be wrong.

and in no way was Tolkien writing about WWII, for who was Sam during the war, who was Pippin? and where, oh where would Tom Bombadil fit into the picture?

If you want Christian imagery, read the bible, if you want fantasy read lord of the rings.
'foots

[Aerin]

Thank you for your well reasoned post, Proudfoots. Why must people always read some sort of religion or 'hidden meaning' into books? Why can't people just accept books for what they are? It's silly to discuss what religious leaning a book has, because everyone views the world and religion in their own way. A Christian would probably find different meaning in LOTR than a Muslim would, and the meaning a Muslim found in LOTR would differ from the meaning a Jew would find. So on and so forth, we could go on arguing this forever!
People are so unwilling to let someone else have his say. Instead of listening and thinking about the other side's point, most people are just waiting for the other person to stop talking to they can put their two cents in.
I try to take things as they were intended, in LOTR's case, as a good fantasy book. Like Proudfoots said, if I wanted to read a book that had a Christian message, I would read the Bible.
Even those of us on this message board will find differing opinions on the meaning of LOTR.
Take, for example, Tom Bombadillo. Some will say that he is an angel, some say that he is a Maia, and some say that 'he is'.
Because of the way we were raised, our backgrounds, we will see different meanings in things. Another example; someone who was raised using Macintosh will view a Mac and want to work with it. A person who has always used Windows will view the Mac with apprehension. It all depends on what your background you have and what you have done in your life.

Anyway, it's getting late, so this will be my last post for tonight!

[ReadWryt]

If more people spent more time studying what TOLKIEN had to say about his writings as they do between their own ears rationalizing then there would be more widespread understanding of what the works really are, a new Mythology for England.

[Grond]

ReadWryt, I can't help but disagree with you. Tolkien may have meant for his works to be a new mythology for England but that doesn't mean that's what they have to be to me (or to any other reader for that matter.) As I have stated before, to me, TLOTR is another world, apart from ours and one that I hope exists somewhere in this wondrous universe. The fact that this was not Mr. Tolkien's intent doesn't make my reality wrong and his right or vice-versa.

[ReadWryt]

Grond,

I respect the fact that you have a right to PERCIEVE the stories as you will, but the thread started with this...

Alright, this may seem kind of strange, but me and my friend were arguing about the Hobbit and I need some help proving my point. You see, I think that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings was essentially a parable about the typical idea of religion(most notably the Christian story). But he doesn't believe me. So if anyone can please help me I would very grateful. All I need is something like a quote from Tolkien about how the story was in fact religious or some evidence to help support my claim. Or ever just your own opinion would be helpful.


I am merely attempting to answer the question as to the nature the Author intended...

[Grond]

ReadWryt, point taken. A good case in point of a post getting off subject by an inattentive poster (that would be me). Oops!

[Ancalagon]

No No No Grond, don't give in so easily, he likes it when we do that. Even if he is right, argue back, it's the only way, keep coming back with more.......:)

[Frodo Baggins]

I am a Catholic and this is my own opinion, and I know people will have their's too. I would please like to hear your thoughts.

I beleive there is a small religious theme to be found in the Hobbit and LOTR. I guess I can picture Frodo as a likeness of Jesus, but not perfect as he was. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was pure and free of sin, unlike all humans. He was sent on a mission by God to free the world of sin and teach God's word. Similarly, Frodo is sent on a mission to destroy a form of evil, The One Ring. He is sent by Gandalf who guides him along his journey, just as God guided Jesus in his ministry. And just as Jesus is tempted by Satan in the desert as he fasted for 40 days, Frodo is tempted by evil.

The one reason Frodo fails is that he is not perfect. He cannot resist the great evil that overcomes him on the final leg of his journey. The Catholic Church reminds us that Jesus is part of God, and this is why he is able to sacrifice himself to save the world. Both beings in this world and beings in Tolkein's world are not perfect. They have weaknesses and flaws that Jesus did not have. They are capable of sin and selfishness. Frodo has the good will to accomplish his goal, but very great temptation (unbearable only by someone as powerful and divine as Jesus) is what overcomes him.

Although Gollum is the one who destroys the ring, good prevails in the end. Just as God had intended with Jesus.

[Grond]

Welcome Frodo Baggins! It appears that you may not have read all the entries in the thread. I suggest you go through and pick out ReadWryt's as he has given numerous quotes from the author that the works were not allegorical and were not intended to be written as such. As ReadWryt so ably pointed out to me... how you perceive the writings as a reader is totally different that what the writer's game plan was.

After giving this matter much more thought, I don't see any relationships to current religion on Earth. The religions of our world are all based on faith. Faith that there is a deity, be it God or Jesus or Buddha or any of a page full more. The religion of Middle-earth was manifested in earthly reality. Elda, who walked on Middle-earth had seen the spiritual beings (Vala, Maia) who ruled the world. Some had seen the evil Melkor (my boss man) and worshiped him. Some held the wondrous Elbereth Githoniel as a deity. There was no need of faith in believing in the entity. The entity was there to see and behold. The only faith needed in Middle-earth was the faith in which of the spiritual entities would prevail. Melkor had some of every race that worshiped him and some of all the races sided with the West. I, at one time, thought the Elves were true and never supported Melkor but then thought of Maeglin and his betrayal of Gondolin. So it seems that some of every race supported Melkor.

So, the beauty of Tolkien's Middle-earth was that no religion was needed. The order of the universe was there for all to see and one had to simply choose sides and get on with it.

These are my words and I speak the truth for I am Grond, the evil Hammer of Melkor. But to Grond, it is I who am good and your who are evil and it is you who support the Vala of the West that are evil. For my master Melkor shall prevail and you and your kind will burn in the pits of Angband, and the fires of Utumno will be renewed and burn hotter than before they were buried by the usurpers, Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, Tulkas and Nessa. All that is fair will be foul and all that is good shall be better, and... (Oops.... I guess I got carried away. Too much hot buttered rum in my new Burger King light up Gandalf mug!)

[ReadWryt]

Oh yeah, it's Gandalf's fault...allways blaming the "good guys" huh Grond?

[Frodo Baggins]

I didn't mean what Tolkien wrote was allegory. In the original thread the author asked for quotes or accounts that suggested the Hobbit and LOTR was influenced by religion today. The author also asked for people's opinions and that is what I gave. I know Tolkien problaby didn't use much religious influence, if any in writing his novel. I was merely trying to help the author by suggesting a way that the story may be perceived as religious. And yes I did read all the posts.

*runs away and cries quietly*:(

[telperion]

for whats it woth, i know that tolkien was raised not by his own parents but in a monestery ... or how do you say this in proper english.........by monks , religious people .....
now i' not saying that he could be but that he was ,,, was,,,influenced by christianity ......
luckily christianity is full of themes that are very relevant and always will be but in the hobbit .....how does the battle of five armies fit it this allegory of yours?:confused:

[Ancalagon]

Ahhh yes, the Battle of the Good, The Bad, The Ugly, The Meek and The Great Unwashed. Always a popular conversation piece at my multi-belief wine and cheese evenings. It always amuses me when the Methodists accuse the Catholics of plagurising The Islamics viewpoints of Hinduisms critique of the King James. Never a dull moment when the Zoroastrianism crowd bully the Jainists over the quality of the buffet service and don't get me started on the Shintoism Popular People's Ratafarian Front.

And to think that only Christians think they have a daily struggle with good against evil.

[Grond]

Anc, you know how I hate it when someone makes a one word reply, so appreciate Grond's enthusiastic applause to your post and his one word reply of WOW!!!!

[Walter]

I gotto throw in my 5 cents here:

An epos like Tolkien's is "vulnerable" to a lot of interpretations, some of them may meet the intentions of the author, others not. The same goes for other "comparable" epi like the Torah, Koran, Bible. And it doesn't take much more than an average scribe to "prove" something by quoting a certain passage of text. But usually it is as easy to "prove" the exact opposite with another passage of text...

As for the topic of of this thread: I do not think that it has been Tolkien's intention at all to create a religious parable with the LotR, ReadWryte already quoted a passage of text from the letter that is put as a preface in the Sil, but I would like to add a few more lines that immediatly follow RW's quote:


...For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. '
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

To cut my long story short, the LotR may surely be interpreted as a religious parable - as well as it may contain parts that may be read as a homosexual parable like someone else stated - but neither of those was Tolkien's intention, methinks ;)

[telperion]

I know that these dicussions are all about flavours and dislikes and whatifs and whatso's, like the greeks said quot capita tot sensus...
and that goes for interpretations too methinks......
All i know is that it is interesting , atleast when you are as interested in the work of tolkien as some people amongst you, to look at tolkien life for clues of points of interest in his spiritual life that coincided with his work, or not ....because many of his collegues thought of him as somewhat quaint being aa professor writing childrens stories ....and aha behold the crux of my plead........:D
his main passion was his family and the love of his country and his love for the storytelling alltogether because that science might come as close (or even closer) to the core of mankind....
and that spoken history (the elves wrote but a sory once heard was carved in the heart of every young elve)is decaying as we deliberate our fates even as we speak here on this board....so how bhoeddistic can an omnipotent truth as this be?religion is nothing but stotytelling it comes so close to our interest....So close that i do not need religion.MY love for the waves and riding them (no im not a solosimpi) and have good discussions enriches my life almost too much....
So here we go ;tolkeins work is in my opinion more influenced by his love of storytelling than of the love of themes.......

[Walter]

Originally posted by telperion
...like the greeks said quot capita tot sensus...


Couldn't that be latin even if it's greek to me? ;)

----
and for those - like myself - who don't speek greek or latin fluently could it be supposed to mean "There are as many opinions as there are "heads" (...to express them)?

[telperion]

Yea, one could even say that there are as many versions of the hobbit as there are readers...but all are equal in worth;)

[Ancalagon]

I suppose Grond, it proves the point that religion places itself on our agenda whether we like it or not, though we should never lose sight of the fact that there are many of whom TLOrs could be a relative parable.

[syongstar]

the bible says "god is love" and God's plan is everyone to live forever. These books are about the connection of good energy.

[Ancalagon]

You also have to remember that this is a 'worldwide' forum, encapsulating every ethnicity, culture and faith. Any fan of Tolkien can pick up his work and see a window into some aspect of their faith. The Bible is one of many books or codes to devine wisdom and learning, all of which have generally the same founding principles and moral code in their genetic make-up.

I feel the question is not to try to draw parallels with the Christianity alone, but to embrace the underlying themes that are evident in all faiths of the world. Understand the major religions of this world and you will know what binds us. Learn the Germanic, Celtic, Slavic and Norse mythologies and you will see Tolkien as a comparison. His work is relevant to all and exclusive to none.

[HLGStrider]

Tolkien was a Christian. He had Christ living in his heart (And still does). He could not help breathing out his faith. One cannot do anything truly good without God. Even atheists (I believe with all the wisdom of almost 17) can touch God's inspiration.
That does not mean that Tolkien was intentionally writing a Christian work. It just means that he couldn't help writing from that outlook. To do so would be to deny himself.
I've been reading a lot of George Macdonald (A tolkien influence). He stresses that the holiestthing is the search for truth. You can find it in the stars (After all God made them... I am not talking about astrology, however), you can find it whereever there is beauty, you can find it in ugliness, you can find it in arguements AGAINST God and Christianity if God is in you enough. Why shouldn't we be able to find it in Tolkien?
By the way, to the person who was arguing that we should not take the Bible literally, (Though this is totally off the subject), the Bible itself says all scripture is God breathed. Plus, the Bible is supported to be truth by more documents and history than any other text of its age. Please, look up the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. If that doesn't convince you, nothing will. However, Jesus's appearance did change things. We aren't supposed to stone the adulteress any more. Now is the age of forgiveness. There is nothing in the Bible I don't believe.
The booksof Tolkien may not be allegories or even parables, but they are beauty and truth which is fundementally a "God thing". Sorry if I got a little off the subject. I just like to speak my heart sometimes.

[Pelvidar]

I think the "real" parable here is that if you are REALLY predeposed to finding a particular message in a story (especially a work of fiction) - then you will.

[telperion]

so true .. i agree .seek and you will find your answer

[ReadWryt]

Actually, I would doubt seriously that the dead cold heart of the old guy has Christ living in it. Even the most literal of interpretations would not include the idea that Christ resides in your hollow husk after you have passed away.

[ilgwamh]

The only "parable" I think you will find in Tolkien's works is "true myth" :)

A cool link:
http://www.leaderu.com/focus/tolkien.html

Hi Pel :D

[ilgwamh]

I think the "real" parable here is that if you are REALLY predeposed to finding a particular message in a story (especially a work of fiction) - then you will.

I agee with that totally but I'd like to add that I think a few people in close positions have found "parables" here:

""""Humphrey Carpenter, author of Tolkien's authorized biography, takes this claim seriously. Tolkien, he says, was possessed of a "deep and passionate" faith in God; his writings are "the work of a profoundly religious man." According to Carpenter, God is essential to everything that happens in The Lord of the Rings. Without Him, Middle-earth couldn't exist. "He wanted the mythological and legendary stories to express his own moral view of the universe, and as a Christian he could not place this view in a cosmos without the God that he worshipped."4 """"""
http://www.leaderu.com/humanities/ware-tolkien.html

The most accurat interpretation I've seen is "true myth."

[Aiwendil]

If ya'll are still arguing over whether or not Tolkein wrote with a basis in Christianity, then buy the book "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" It has some interesting points that can be taken out of the book allegorically, but nothing Tolkien said himself. There is on interesting quote though;

"As he explained, 'I believe that legends are largly made up of the truth, and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received through the form of a story"

He also claimed to C. S. Lewis before Lewis became a Christian, his goal in story telling (i. e. his writings) was to incoorperate the true story of The Bible into his fictional stories.

Hope that helped.

[Pelvidar]

Hey Vin :D Figured our paths would cross here :)

[ilgwamh]

Maybe you are just stalking me ;)

I like this place don't you? :)

[HLGStrider]

I was not refering to the heart as the organ that pumps as your comment suggests, Read...

"Actually, I would doubt seriously that the dead cold heart of the old guy has Christ living in it. Even the most literal of interpretations would not include the idea that Christ resides in your hollow husk after you have passed away. blood. "

I was refering to the eternal soul which I believe lives on after death. I was trying to be brief, however, beacuse I felt my remarks off the subject and being only 17 I'm not the most experienced replier or theologian on the site.

[ReadWryt]

HLGStrider,

Bahahaha! That's ok, I should have been more carefull and remembered that the newer members here don't allways realize that I am possibly the most sarcastic person who posts here. Next time I crack wise or otherwise make jest I will remember to stick a smiley thingy in it...

[HLGStrider]

Thanks Ready... Here's one for you. :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
HLGStrider,

Bahahaha! That's ok, I should have been more carefull and remembered that the newer members here don't allways realize that I am possibly the most sarcastic person who posts here. Next time I crack wise or otherwise make jest I will remember to stick a smiley thingy in it...

I never new that.

[ReadWryt]

I'm totally shocked! You really didn't know that?? Why I was under the impression that it was some of the most commonly known subject matter on the planet and that the only people bereft of awareness of it were living in small dank caves someplace in South America living on a diet of Bats and strange fruit which grows high in the trees...

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
I'm totally shocked! You really didn't know that?? Why I was under the impression that it was some of the most commonly known subject matter on the planet and that the only people bereft of awareness of it were living in small dank caves someplace in South America living on a diet of Bats and strange fruit which grows high in the trees...




Really. Yes i do live in a cave in Sydney thankyou not in South America.:D :D :D :D :D ;) ;)