Happenings in the Guild-archive

[Maedhros]

This thread is created with the purpose of illustrating the guild activities that will take place and news about it's members.
First, I would like to thank all of you for joining and our esteemed Guildmaster for reviving the guild.
I have been thinking of a debate topic for this weekend. The entire guild will be divided into two sides, which I will choose the members and you will begin debating.
It will be a topic that all of you should be familiar with it, and no further knowledge of Home is necessary. The topic and sides will be anounced Friday. Remember, you don't have to agree with your side.
Grond and myself will be the judges with a poll to count as the third judge. The debate will begin Saturday and will compromise 5 days, so it will end in Wednesday 18. Exact times to be announced later.
Remember, above all, have fun.

[Mithlond]

Sounds excellent Maedhros, this should be alot of fun. :)

[Maedhros]

I hope it will be a lot of fun. And we are only beginning. Hopefully in the future we can make discussion about certain areas of the books. For example, we can schedule reading certain chapters or stories of the books by a certain date, and then we would begin an indepth discussion of it. I would it to be open to all of the forum, but it will be hosted in our guild. It's not simply reading it, but discussing what happened, why it happened and what were the motivations of the characters.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I hope it will be a lot of fun. And we are only beginning. Hopefully in the future we can make discussion about certain areas of the books. For example, we can schedule reading certain chapters or stories of the books by a certain date, and then we would begin an indepth discussion of it. I would it to be open to all of the forum, but it will be hosted in our guild. It's not simply reading it, but discussing what happened, why it happened and what were the motivations of the characters.

That sounds great, and I hope people are interested in it. The reading ring started awhile back for The Hobbit didn't get much response here. In fact, I just went over to another forum to start thread for people to do this with The Silmarillion, so far I have only one taker:confused: I think it could work out here, neverminding what happend with The Hobbit. When people see that Grond, and you other Tolkien Masters are involved with this, I see no reason they would not jump at the chance.
It's a great idea all around, and in my opinion there is no better way to use this Forum.
I especially look forward to doing this with portions of the HoME (which I am getting this afternoon:D)

[Maedhros]

In fact, I just went over to another forum to start thread for people to do this with The Silmarillion, so far I have only one taker
I know exaclty what you mean. I too tried to encourage discussion of the Silmarillion in another reality, something like a reading forum, where you would discuss chapter by chapter of the Sil; unfortunately, only certain individuals could create threads to begin such discussions and the sad thing is that they were not the most knowleageble people in those areas.:( I have no tolerance for those kind of people.
I will assure you that any person in this guild or forum is welcome to post it's own topic in these discussions, because we all have something different to contribute, doesn't matter if you're an expert or just starting.

[pohuist]

Sounds great. The debates should be fun (especially debating the position you do not agree with) and debating certain chapters, etc is a good excuse to read more Tolkien (like we need one).

- Spouse: Honey, you promised to (fill in the blank -- take out garbage, cook dinner, take the kids to the ballgame, etc.)
OR
- Mother: How's the homework going

-Guild Member: Sorry, can't do this right now. I have to finish this chapter for tommorrow's debate. You wouldn't want me to look stupid, would you.

[Nóm]

A bit of news...I now have HoME books 1, 2, 5, and 6. That was all they had at the book store. If anyone wants to point to me a certain chapter(s) you're welcomed to. For now I s'pose I'll start with The return of the Shadow.

[Elu Thingol]

I'm all for it. Can never resist a good debate:) . Can't wait.

[Maedhros]

May I recommend reading the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin which is absolutely fantastic.
Also in Home 5 The Lost Road and Other Writtings, The Quenta Silmarillion is always a great Read.

[Grond]

Well, I am leaving you in good hands. I am off to the great state of Arkansas to attend my Niece's wedding. I will be checking in over the weekend but will not likely have any time to post. So, have fun this weekend. I look forward to being a judge in the outcome. :);)

Anyone who hasn't read the thread on Goldberry, in our guild forum, needs to do so. And make sure that you vote and more importantly, vote your heart, not your guild. If you think Anc presented his side of the debate more convincingly, vote for him. We want to win debates fair and square and take both the wins and the losses with dignity. It is also important that as long as we put forth our best ideas and push our intellects to the max, then we have won, no matter the debate's outcome.

[Lhunithiliel]

May I say that I too like the idea very much!
I am thinking that if I am to be included in one of the debating teams, I'll do my best to defend the position.

Question: If one is appointed to a debating team and it turns out that he/she actually thinks the opposite, what then?

I was thinking these days to offer some hints about the organization of the activities in the guild but now Maedhros has done a BIG step towards it! :p *bows*
I see how disoriented some forums may become with ANYbody opening threads with topics discussed thousands of times, or stating questions that have a little to do with Tolkien and/or his works, or people directly saying smth. like "I don't know who this guy Tolkien is, but I want to ask....." ... So, I thought that The Guild of Tolkienology should not suffer the same.
The point is that having some order in the topics discussed and debated will help us concentrate over one specific part of Tolkien's written works and this will most certainly bring knowledge!:cool: It's of course better to start with the "most popular" (so to say) like The Silmarillion, the Hobbit and the LOTR as these are available in most countries. As for the other written works - those who have them - will post, those who don't - will learn - simple and easy.

Finally, I would like to offer to you a suggestion: What if we keep the present thread as sort of a "SERVICE" thread? Here all organizational issues could be widely presented and discussed, new suggestions for topics - presented etc.
Greetings
Lhun

[Hirila]

I think we should do these debates like any debating society does it's.

We have members of the pro and con side and they present there opinion on the topic and then discuss. When the debate is closed (by the judges) it can be decided who has had the better arguments, who has won the debate.
And if some member has to argue for a side he doesn't like that exactly what we want: trying to stand up for a side you don't like makes you learn how to argue. Because you cannot be emotional, what's is often a mistake in discussions. They shouldn't be emotional. So it's only the better if you are on the "wrong" side.

[Grond]

Question: If one is appointed to a debating team and it turns out that he/she actually thinks the opposite, what then?LOL!!! Now you know the position I was in on the Godberry debate for I certainly don't think she is a Maia. I hold the author's words as sacrosanct on the matter and he said Tom and Goldberry were enigmas. I can't bring myself to believe any differently (although I can argue differently, just the same.)

I like Lhunithiliel's suggestions that we leave this as an open thread to discuss guild issues. Maedhros and I will keep our heads in here and make sure we keep members informed and happy.

Finally, any member of the guild may open a thread in this guild forum. No non-member may open a thread although any non-member may participate in any thread opened by a member. Any threads opened by non-members will be immediately closed. :) If they want to start threads here... let em join.

The exception to that rule would be challenges and comments by other Guild leaders. Anc, Elbereth and others are welcome to start threads on general guild issues, pending debates and the like but not on discussion issues. :)

[Maedhros]

Finally, I would like to offer to you a suggestion: What if we keep the present thread as sort of a "SERVICE" thread? Here all organizational issues could be widely presented and discussed, new suggestions for topics - presented etc.
That is exactly the purpose of this thread.
This thread is created with the purpose of illustrating the guild activities that will take place and news about it's members.
We have members of the pro and con side and they present there opinion on the topic and then discuss. When the debate is closed (by the judges) it can be decided who has had the better arguments, who has won the debate.
I like your idea, but I would prefer to leave the opinions of the participants after the debate is finished.
I am thinking that if I am to be included in one of the debating teams, I'll do my best to defend the position.
I will asign everyone in this guild (exception of the judges) their respective position in which to argue. I would hope that all members would contribute to the debate, doesn't matter if you think that the other side is winning or that you have nothing else to say, just go and debate. It's an excersise for the mind.
The Topic is already selected, so be ready. :)

[Mithlond]

Excellent, bring it on. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL!!! Now you know the position I was in on the Godberry debate for I certainly don't think she is a Maia
Well, that's SHOCKING!
Say, Grond, are you a lawyer or smt.? Because the only people I can think of, who defend equally well both saints and devils, are the lawyers! They are the only people, I can think of, who can defend a position AGAINST their own point of view and opinion.

Anyway, your quotes and your thoughts only suited perfectly with my understanding of Goldberry and Tom.:p

The fact, however, that you defended a position different from yours, only makes your victory in this debate stronger!
-------------------------
BTW, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NIECE'S WEDDING!!!!
LET THEM BE HAPPY FOR MANY YEARS TO COME !!

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Well, that's SHOCKING!
Say, Grond, are you a lawyer or smt.? Because the only people I can think of, who defend equally well both saints and devils, are the lawyers! They are the only people, I can think of, who can defend a position AGAINST their own point of view and opinion.


I think you will find it easier than you think to provide evidence for something which you yourself do not beleive in. After all, do we not have to look at all sides of something before coming up with our own opinions?
it's just a matter of presenting that evidence in writing rather than keeping it in your thoughts.

[Grond]

Actually, Confusticated, I convinced myself internally of Goldberry's status as a Maia before I started. I didn't truly believe it.... but I did while I debated. Having enough knowledge of the books to know where to look for the support is the key and why it is so important the we Tolkienologists study... study... study.

Knowing where to look for the questions is just as important as finding the answers. (Ancient Melkorian Proverb).

[Nóm]

Well I don't think I am capable of convincing myself of something that I do not beleive but that wont stop me from finding all the supporting eveidence that I can, as well as find evidence against what I beleive.

[Elu Thingol]

There's always evidence to support both sides of a debate. A debate is just a matter of finding evidence and turning it into a believable argument. I've debated plenty of times against things I believe just to see what people's responses are. I love to play the Devil's Advocate, but I can see arguments for my position that may have been stronger than those I originally possessed.

[Lhunithiliel]

M-m-m-m :confused:
If I am to do the same as you, guys, this will be quite a challanging experience for me, as I am almost invincible ;) only when I believe in smth. because then I know perfectly well what evidence to bring forward. But when I have even the slightest doubts..... well, I could not be very convincing, I guess!
Maybe I shall have to do as Grond did - convince myself of the rightfullness of the statement and then provide the strongest arguments I can think of.:p
We'll see! :p

[Nóm]

Alright, I'm just itching for things to happen. :) Any idea about when we will have one of these planned readings and discussions? Is there something that we are waiting for? More members?...If there is anything I can do to help, maybe PM some people I know to advertise the discussion on a personal level, I will.

[Maedhros]

Patience, you must learn patience. ;)
Actually, we are waiting for the debate first. I'm all ready to start the reading discussions, but first we need to choose the book and topic which we are going to discuss. How about if you begin a Poll in the guild to see which book would you want to discuss first.
Remember, there are not only debates and reading discussions, I have in mind another more "scholarly" activity that will really push your tolkien knowledge, but first we must have a better understanding of the books in general.:D

[Elu Thingol]

My curiosity is killing me:).

[pohuist]

Its already Saturday for some people (depending on time zone). Patience is a virtue, but I thought there will be a topic given on Friday.

[Maedhros]

The topic will be posted shortly. Unfortunately I have bad news. One of our members have quitted the guild and the appropiate measures have been taken into consideration for the debate.
I hope that you will have a fine time with your new guild Confusticated, you're still welcome to participate in this guilds activities.

[Grond]

Confusticated has not resigned from our guild and is assigned to Team B in the debate. I want to emphasize to every member (myself included) that none of us can know all there is to know about the works. This guild is for everyone, of all levels of Tolkien experience. If we make mistakes, we learn from them. If we make a point, we don't brag about it... instead, we use our position to better educate those who want to learn.

Everyone is welcome here and no one has any reason to resign. Everyone is worthy of our guild. Let's hope we all keep the guild worthy of everyone who wants to join. :)

Glad you didn't leave Confusticated. :)

[Nóm]

I sent a message to both Grond and Maedhros that I was resigning from this guild...anyhow Grond did not accept this and he convinced me to stay. :D

[Maedhros]

Cool. So go and debate and have fun.:)

[Nóm]

I will! I will! as soon as more of team B shows up and comunicates with me...Where are you guys?...Also I have a question...who posts first? Which team?...Also, is there set order in which each member of a team will post, or is that for the team to figure out on it's own?

[Maedhros]

The teams could form a "strategy" or not, that is up to you.

[Maedhros]

Wow, because of the increase in members in our guild, we will have in the future to divide the debates of form smaller groups. Remember, keep posting in the debate and for those who joined after the debate had started, don't worry, there are plenty to come.
Please look and post in the reading/discussion thread, so that we can know what to discuss first.
I would like for Grond to make this thread sticky so that it will be always visible to our members.

[Mithlond]

Yeah strategies would be nice, but its a little hard to form any on forums, without any real-time chat happening.

Anyway this is only the first debate, perhaps we can work out better ways to form strategies in the future.

[Grond]

Anyone ever here of MSN Messenger? I and most of my friends are on there all the time. I speak with the members of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil all the time. My email address for messenger is richardepope@hotmail.com

"Let's hunt some chat!!!!"

[Lhunithiliel]

MY DEAREST GUILD-FELLOWS,
THIS IS MY POST ¹ 100 !

****** Thank you! Thank you!!! :) :p :D

It is a real pleasure to be among you and talk to you and learn from you!!

[Grond]

I intend to have a contest of some kind for guild members. The winner will be awarded a prize which will be sure to please. I haven't decided if it will be First U. S. Edition Hardback or something else of a similar nature.

I would like everyone's ideas on what the premise of the contest should be. Should it be totally random? Should it be based on skills in one particular area of Tolkien? I'll leave that up to all of you! Let's talk about it and then see who can win the prize. :);)

[Nóm]

I'm thinking essay contest.

[pohuist]

It should be on something everybody read/knows, so that everyone has equal chances of winning.

[Nóm]

I agree with that. For example if we did do an essay contest I was thinking of a topic were we explaing why Tolkien's books are outstanding. Some other people may want to have a test of knowledge though. If it is decide to test our knowledge I will not raise hell about it, but I will think it unfair.

[Grond]

It will be fair... whatever we do.

[Mithlond]

I think an essay is a great idea.
And like Confusticated has stated above, a question should be used that doesn't strain the brain with Tolkien facts too much, to help cater for the less learned Tolkienologists in the Guild.

[Nóm]

Well I think we should strain our brains! But to be thorough about most topics someone would have to have read more than one of the books, and I'm sure some of us do not even have all of the books. Our apprentices, I would guess, have probably only read The Lord of the Rings, maybe the Hobbit as well.
There is really only a few ways to compete, physical ability, creativity, and intellectually. ...Well we can clearly rule out physical competition as fun as that might be..:D
So we're left to creativiy and intellect. I think our contest should be one that will have us pushing those abilities to the max.

[Nenya Evenstar]

As much as I would love a physical ability competition... :) That would be fun, wouldn't it? But anyway, something creative is looking fun to me, or maybe we could do both. It could be kind of like the debates. We pick our idea and change it next time around. That way everyone would be able to share in what they are best at.

[Khamul]

Greetings, I humbly ask for permission to join this esteemed guild. :)

[Grond]

You are, of course, more than welcome to join us Sting. I will PM you with details. I'm sure you'll feel quite at home here in the TTF Guild of Tolkienology. :);)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
As much as I would love a physical ability competition... :) That would be fun, wouldn't it? But anyway, something creative is looking fun to me, or maybe we could do both. It could be kind of like the debates. We pick our idea and change it next time around. That way everyone would be able to share in what they are best at.

Let's do something that's both fun and creative!
Also: we must consider the members for whom English is a secondary language.

[Lhunithiliel]

I am still thinking about Grond's suggestion. I know it's good and I'm sure it's going to be fun! Only I haven't discovered anything worth suggesting back :(
As for English language being a second one for many of us - well it's going to be hard, but it is the language of the forum and whatever we wish to say, we have to do it in English. Besides, there is no other form than WRITTEN (in English) that we could possibly chose for any sort of competition, isn't it!
So, I suggest that everybody (incl. me!) should think harder and come out with a specific suggestion (just as Confusticated did :) ) as soon as possible.

[Grond]

Okay, I'm getting ticked off! I have a poll here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6152) on selecting a guild description. We have 27 total members as of this moment and only 15 have voted. That leaves 12 members who haven't taken the time to decide something that is very important to their guild. Please vote today. The poll will close Tomorrow evening and I will start another since it appears we don't have a majoity on any one description. I will likely post the top three in another poll. I want to finalize this by Friday so everyone please contribute. This isn't a "Grond" decision... it is a "Guild" decision. :)

[gate7ole]

The idea of a contest among us is very intruigng. But there are some issues to be considered before venturing into it.
The nature of the contest must be such that avoids any kind of inequity. And the problem is that all suggestions so far may cause some injustice.
First lets consider the essay contest. The biggest drawback is the significant advantage that people speaking English as a native language, have. At least I can't compete them. Besides the essay itself as a contest cannot be restricted to judge only the knowledge of Tolkien's work and the ability to conceive philosophical issues, debate on ambiguous matters, speculate or imagine. It also judges the literary capabilities of the author. And finally essay contests are prone to subjectivity.
Then we have the suggestion of a pure knowledge test, restricted say on the published book (or even only Lotr). Here the disadvantage is obvious. Someone with good resources can win the test, even if he/she may have not delved into Tolkienology :). And it is not fair for the beginners.
As it is always the matter when a dilemma arises, the best solution is something in the middle. My suggestion is that the contest should have two parts. First the essay contest, which could be consisted of 2-3 big issues (e.g. Was the choice of Noldor to return to ME eventually beneficial?) and would require from the contester to write down his/her opinion in a couple of paragraphs. The judges should try not to take into account any bad use of the language or be carried away by a literally great writing. The second part would be the knowledge contest, where again the questions should be carefully selected not to be easily answered by the resources (e.g. by the online encyclopedia of Arda), but that would demand a by heart knowledge of the facts (e.g. it will take some time to research the answer to the question: Which of the Noldor of ME were considered High Kings of the Elves throughout the 3 ages? But those who know it can answer almost immediately). Finally, to help the beginners, some could be able to choose a different analogy between the two parts (someone could choose his/her overall score to be 70% from the essay and 30% from the knowledge test).
This is my suggestion. I hope I helped to find the best solution to the matter. Thanks for listening.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Grond, I am extremely excited and thrilled with what you have come up with for the contest! I am going to get out my pen right away. I also count myself lucky to be a part of this guild! Good luck to everyone on their essays, and have fun!

[Maedhros]

Well, I have to say that I'm out of the drawing competition. I'm more of a numbers kind of guy.;)

[Nóm]

If you have not yet voted about our first book reading click here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6109) :D

[gate7ole]

So it is decided! An essay contest. Though I see an advantage to English/American/Aussie/Canadians, I will definitely take part. Besides it is not about winning but participating. May the best (and luckiest for the second prize) win.

One question: the length of the essay

[Grond]

I think the length of the essay should be no more than one typed page.

[Ancalagon]

Let me congratulate you good Grond (and Ms Grond) on the time and effort expended in the presevation of both the Guild and the Forum as a whole. I would gladly assist in the process of seeking a winning entry for these fabulous prizes........shame I can't submit my own:(

So come on all Guild members and submit the outpouring of you passions for the Greatest Author in memory;)

[gate7ole]

Three gifts!!? And you pay for them all?
I'm astonished.
As for the length, I hope it would be a little larger, say 1,5 pages

[Nenya Evenstar]

Whatever length they are (and I think that we should keep them short as the judges will already have their hands full as it is with reading) I think that everyone's essay should be relatively the same length so that no one can win over another person by eloquent language, wordy descriptions, etc. I think that that is essential in order to keep it fair.

[Grond]

I can only assure you that writing style is NOT what I'm looking for. I want someone to give me reasons they love Tolkien and how it effects their life. This essay will be judged on content and not command of the English language (since we have many to whom English is not a primary language).

The limit is one page.

[Mithlond]

Grond, you truely are a marvellous person. I never expected any prizes to be given out, but this is great.

A one page limit eh, i dunno how im gonna fit all my thoughts into that tiny, tiny space. :)

[Grond]

I can only assure the membership that any contest I would endorse would have to be inherently fair to all members. And I have come up with my solution.

I want everyone to write an essay on why you love Tolkien. This should be a totally personal essay which explains your Tolkien history and should include what drew you to his works in the first place, why you continue to read Tolkien and what life lessons it has taught and continues to teach us.

And in order for it to be totally fair... there will also be a second contest which will be totally random. I will have a prize that will be awarded via a blind draw so that every single guild member will have the same chance of winning.

Prize - Essay Contest
1977 First Edition of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion
Hard Back with Dust Jacket. It is in Good/Fine condition and has the fold out map still intact. The book itself is in Fine condition but the Dust Jacket has a few small tears in it. This is a true First Edition, 10th printing of the work.

2 Prizes - Random drawing
1) Brand new oversized Paperback Edition of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien
and
3) Brand new oversized Paperback Edition of The Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster.

Randon drawing will include all members of the guild as of 5:48 AM, 16 Septemeber 2002 GMT.

The random drawing will occur on 09/29/02. The essay prize will be awarded as soon as the essays can be judged... as soon after 09/29/02 as possible. I will appoint a committee of myself, Ancalagon, Gothmog and Maedhros to determine the winner of the essay contest. I will have Ms. Grond handle the random drawings. rawing winners will be announced that afternoon. Winning members will need to provide me with shipping address so that I can ship your prize to you.

Good luck to all and get writing.

Essays should be emailed to me at rpope123@bellsouth.net . Winning essay will be posted in it's own thread along with the two runner ups and (who knows) I may find some smaller prize for the 2nd and 3rd place finishers. :)

addendum!! See additional prize to be randomly drawn. Since the essay may be deemed unfair to our members who are not primary English speakers, I have added a prize specifically for that category. Sorry to add confusion but this seems to be the best way to make this work fairly. The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien and The Complete Guide to Middle-earth will be randomly drawn (so we'll have two different random winners for these) and the Silmarillion will be given to the winner of the Essay Contest. A new picture shows all three books. :)

[Grond]

The Webmaster, David Averill-Pence, has decided to post the winning essay and possibly the second and/or third place submissions on our sister website www.thelordoftherings.com . He will also be on the judging committee with Ancalagon, Gothmog, Maedhros and myself.

I will now have to find two more prizes for the 2nd and 3rd place finishers in the essay contest. (Man... this is getting expensive....):);)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Well, I have to say that I'm out of the drawing competition. I'm more of a numbers kind of guy.;)

Will Maedhros be taking part in the essay contest? I thought perhaps not since he will be a judge.

[Grond]

Poor Maedhros. Guildmasters and Deputy Guildmasters can't participate. :(

[Maedhros]

From Oedipus Rex:
Ah me! ah woe is me!
Ah whither am I borne!
How like a ghost forlorn
My voice flits from me on the air!
On, on the demon goads. The end, ah where?
:( :(

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, well, well!
It is getting MATERIAL, Grond!! ;) :D

I think that the best prize will be that the winner's work will be seen and read by thousands of people!
The Webmaster, David Averill-Pence, has decided to post the winning essay and possibly the second and/or third place submissions on our sister website www.thelordoftherings.com .
What a better prize there could be?! - Be published and famous in TTF and in LOTR - two of the best Tolkien-related web-sites!!!!!!

Guildmasters and Deputy Guildmasters can't participate.
Say, WHY NOT? By including these people ONLY in Jury-boards will impede them from sharing their views on certain topics. And THEIR views are valuable, educational and personally very, very interesting.;) Why shouldn't I learn why YOU love Tolkien and what lessons his works taught YOU...? :eek: ( "YOU" - meaning every one from the Jury).

I would be very much interested in reading EVERYONE'S essays. Will there be any possibility that apart from publishing the winners', the other works could be viewd through somewhere?

Re: "drawing"-contest: Are photo-collages accepted instead of drawing?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Re: "drawing"-contest: Are photo-collages accepted instead of drawing? Oops.... the language thing pops up again. A drawing means a random name is pulled out of a hat. It is not an art contest but one where every member of the guild will have an equal chance of winning.

I did this so our members who are not native English speakers would not be at a disadvantage. :);)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Grond
I can only assure you that writing style is NOT what I'm looking for. I want someone to give me reasons they love Tolkien and how it effects their life. This essay will be judged on content and not command of the English language (since we have many to whom English is not a primary language).

The limit is one page.

If this is held true then I do not see how anyone would be at a disadvantage because of language.

[gate7ole]

Great news!!
The winner will become famous!
But I object to more prizes for the 2nd and 3rd places. Three prizes were more than enough. Now with 5 prizes we will have a percentage of winners 5/25 (20%). I know that this doubles the chances to win a prize, but I don't think it's fair for Grond to pay for all these books. Then again if he is so generous...

[Nóm]

Alright, I just want to remind our members (those who are not so active here) That we will be doing a reading discussion. I know that some of you apprentices have not read The Silmarillion yet, I think this chance to read and discuss the book with our Experts and Masters would be a great thing to take advantage of. I know that we all love Tolkien's books and I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on this because they were not paying attention to their guild.

I only hope that those not-so-active members will read this.

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to invite all my guild-mates, being open-hearted and open-minded people, to my new thread at the "History of ME" forum.
Let's speak about love!:p

[Maedhros]

Well, you will be all happy to know that the discussion is almost here. Maybe next week or so.
Our reference will be the Published Silmarillion. As we move through the different subjects, I will try and enhance it by mentioning other references from HOME.
We will begin first with the Ainulindalë as the Required (Published Silmarillion) reading for the discussion. I will post later the other references of it in HOME so that anyone that have them or acquire them can read those references to enrich our discussions.:)

The additional not required readings are:
From Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur.
From the Lost Road and Other Writtings: Ainulindalë.
From Morgoth's Ring: Part I Ainulindalë.

If I'm missing something please tell me.
Please start familiarizing yourself with this, as we will have an in depth discussion of it.

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to draw EVERYBODY's attention to the fact that until present there have been 33 people who have registered in this guild, but not even 1/3-rd part of the members are active within the guild!
Though not being for a long time in TTF, I have noticed that some guilds are almost extinct because of lack of activity on part of their members!
I would not like to assume that people find the process of becoming a guild - member as smth. like a "sport" or amusement!:confused:
If we want to keep this guild alive, I think we ALL should be more active!
Active with new ideas, discussions, opening of new interesting threads, activly participating in the already existing ones, activly voting in the polls, especially those concerning the guild-related matters....
In one word - MORE ACTION!

[Nóm]

I am starting a thread for our apprentices.

[Ceorl]

Sorry I fear I am one of those who have not been participiating as much as I should have been.

Also it was probably mentioned but I missed it; when is the closing date for the essay? the 29th?

[Nóm]

Here's the best answer I can give Ceorl, this is a portion of a post by Grond.


Originally posted by Grond
I can only assure the membership that any contest I would endorse would have to be inherently fair to all members. And I have come up with my solution.

I want everyone to write an essay on why you love Tolkien. This should be a totally personal essay which explains your Tolkien history and should include what drew you to his works in the first place, why you continue to read Tolkien and what life lessons it has taught and continues to teach us.

And in order for it to be totally fair... there will also be a second contest which will be totally random. I will have a prize that will be awarded via a blind draw so that every single guild member will have the same chance of winning.

Prize - Essay Contest
1977 First Edition of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion
Hard Back with Dust Jacket. It is in Good/Fine condition and has the fold out map still intact. The book itself is in Fine condition but the Dust Jacket has a few small tears in it. This is a true First Edition, 10th printing of the work.

2 Prizes - Random drawing
1) Brand new oversized Paperback Edition of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien
and
3) Brand new oversized Paperback Edition of The Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster.

Randon drawing will include all members of the guild as of 5:48 AM, 16 Septemeber 2002 GMT.

The random drawing will occur on 09/29/02. The essay prize will be awarded as soon as the essays can be judged... as soon after 09/29/02 as possible. I will appoint a committee of myself, Ancalagon, Gothmog and Maedhros to determine the winner of the essay contest. I will have Ms. Grond handle the random drawings. rawing winners will be announced that afternoon. Winning members will need to provide me with shipping address so that I can ship your prize to you.

Good luck to all and get writing.

[Lhunithiliel]

The random drawing will occur on 09/29/02. The essay prize will be awarded as soon as the essays can be judged... as soon after 09/29/02 as possible.

But then he left on a vacation, so the dead-line for submitting the essays is now September the 30-th and I suppose the Judges shall need some time to read the essaus and to come up with the "verdict";)

[Grond]

Oops... sorry about that. The deadline for the essay contest will be extended until 09/30/02 at midnight CDT which equates to 10/01/02 3:00 AM GMT.

I will hold the random drawings on 10/01/02 in the morning my time and those two winners will be announced by noon on 10/01/02.

I have also come up with two more prizes in the essay contest... so there will be a total of 3 for the essay plus 2 for the random drawing or 5 all total.

The other two prizes will be a surprise revealed on the day the winner is announced.

And finally...... I'mmmmmm backkkkkk!!!! :);)

[Lhunithiliel]

HELO MASTER!!!!

Glad that you're back!
I hope you have had a wonderful holiday!:D

[gate7ole]

Welcome back Grond!

We missed your always valuable comments and observations.

I hope you returned fresh from your vacations and had a great time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Welcome back, Grond! We missed you! :D

[Mithlond]

Indeed, welcome back master Grond!

I almost totally forgot about the essay contest, i've been away for a few days myself and when i got back i saw the post for the essay contest, then the deadline..and quickly whipped up an essay!

And once again, good to have you back. :)

[Grond]

I must apologize to all the guild but I will likely be missing for the next few days. I'm not sure if the essay judging will be done by the weekend or not. You see... I have this hurricane to deal with. It is bearing down on my little town and we're not sure whether we'll get hit with 100 mph winds, 80 mph winds or 60 mph winds. What we are certain of is that we will lose power and be in the dark for a few days at the least.

I hope to get back on by the weekend but I'll see you when I see you. I do ask that everyone pray for those that will be in the path of this monster storm heading for my home state of Louisiana.

Peace and I hope to see y'all later.

[Nenya Evenstar]

:( Keep safe, Grond. Don't worry about the essays - they can wait.

[Nóm]

Your being absent for awhile is understandable. We have enough patience to wait awhile longer for the essay conest results while you deal with this horror. I wish you guys the best over there in Louisiana. We will all see you later Grond. Best of luck!



Originally posted by Grond
I must apologize to all the guild but I will likely be missing for the next few days. I'm not sure if the essay judging will be done by the weekend or not. You see... I have this hurricane to deal with. It is bearing down on my little town and we're not sure whether we'll get hit with 100 mph winds, 80 mph winds or 60 mph winds. What we are certain of is that we will lose power and be in the dark for a few days at the least.

I hope to get back on by the weekend but I'll see you when I see you. I do ask that everyone pray for those that will be in the path of this monster storm heading for my home state of Louisiana.

Peace and I hope to see y'all later.

[pohuist]

I heard that the storm is losing power, so I hope everybody will be very much alive and kickin' :)

[gate7ole]

Hurricanes. I have seen them in the movies, but there aren't any in Europe. Is it really that bad? As in Twister? I hope not.

[Elenaelin]

Unfortunately yes, they are quite bad. You must be lucky. Fortunately the newcaster reports that the storm wasn't as bad as predicted. Keep safe Grond!

[Nóm]

4 of our members will debate against 4 members of the Ost-in-Edhil:D Go check it out. There is a link in my signature.

[Maedhros]

It have saddened me greatly, when I see in the book section a lot of nonsense posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussions of the books. I wonder if it is just me, or do someone else notices it.:(

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It have saddened me greatly, when I see in the book section a lot of nonsense posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussions of the books. I wonder if it is just me, or do someone else notices it.:(
I notice this, and I am sure that most people who post in the book sections have as well. It does not sadden me though, because I can accept it. Most times when a thread goes off topic it does so after it has died off and no one has anything else to say. As for threads that actually turn into "nonsense" that has NOTHING to do with the books, I think the best way to do deal with this is to post something in that thread which is on topic and simply overlook the nonsense. It will never change..people are always going to go off topic.
Another way to deal with this would be to ask a moderator to PM the people who do this regularly and have them warned, and made to remove the nonsense. I do not do that because I don't think it's worth getting someone in trouble, but if it got on my nerves as much as it gets on yours or if it was happening in a thread that was active with ontopic discussion I would probably make a sarcastic remark about it.

[Maedhros]

I would probably make a sarcastic remark about it.
Me too.

It does not sadden me though, because I can accept it.
It saddenes me because I care about the Books. Specially if it's a thread of mine, why, because I take great care and thought into making a thread. I don't simply post whatever comes to my mind, but I take the time into making something interesting. And to find that in the discussion there are nonsense posts or posts that doesn't belong in that area saddens me deeply. That is one of the reasons I have stopped posting as much as I used to do in the Book Section.:(

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros

And to find that in the discussion there are nonsense posts or posts that doesn't belong in that area saddens me deeply. That is one of the reasons I have stopped posting as much as I used to do in the Book Section.:(
The book section (especially the Silmarillion section) would do well to have you posting in there. I think it would be a good idea that you post there as usual, and start the kind of topics that you have in the past. Taking away quality posts from the section will only contribute to it's decline. Everytime "nonsense" turns away a post by someone like you, the section is made more vulnerable to the nonsense.
As i said before, if a thread turns to chit chat, someone could always post something to bring it back on topic. When a thread sits idle people will be more likely to chit chat.
It goes the other way too, a thread turned to chit chat may not get a serious response: but that is also the doing of the person who neglected to post a serious reply because of it. Do not let it run you away, but look past it. You will be fighting against it by continuing the thread with on-topic discussion.

[pohuist]

Maehdros, I am with you all the way.

[Nóm]

There is a new activity being started in the thread Apprentices (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6465&pagenumber=2) ..it's for everyone of course. It's a game where someone names an action taken or not taken by a charactor and then people answer why they did or did not take that action. After the person who asked is happy with a the responses they pick someone to ask the next one.


Enjoy :D

[Khamul]

I need to start posting in the Book sections as well. :eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

HELLO FRIENDS!!!!
I am back! :) :)
OH, I MISSED YOU!!!!
I missed the forum and I deffinitely missed the beauty of the fantasy world of Tolkien!:(
I am sorry I could not warn you that I was going away for a while, but it was just work. First I had some English clients (the Brits are invading my country, especially the region I live in ;) , then I was caught by a severe flue and I was hardly up from bed when some new clients (this time from USA) needed me, so I had to go away again! I was away from the city, away from my computer, away from the forum , away from YOU!
AND I REALLY, REALLY MISSED YOU!
But now I'm here and I shall spend almost half of the day to catch up with the news! :p
Although working with my foreign clients was pure prose (you know, buying and selling real estates, visiting costruction sites, discussing construction materials, machines, furniture, business contracts terms etc.) I had the opportunity of talking to them not on business only. I could not help asking them about Tolkien - what I found out I'll tell you in my thread Tolkien Popularity though.

Anyway, I am overjoyed that I'm back! :D
----------
I THANK YOU very much for your concern!
Lhun

[Nenya Evenstar]

Great to see you again Lhun! Glad you're back, and hope you are feeling better after that flu! :)

[Nóm]

It's great to see that you are back and I look forward to seeing you in The Silmarillion section in particular.:D

PS Lhun, do you have MSN messenger?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Confusticated
It's great to see that you are back and I look forward to seeing you in The Silmarillion section in particular.:D

PS Lhun, do you have MSN messenger?

Confusticated, Nenya, girls, I am happy too that I can be again with you!
What is this Silmarillion "book section" ? Where is it? Oh, I shall have to spend quite some time to catch up with the news! :p
Confusticated, I have a Yahoo Messanger installed, but I wonder if I install the MSN messanger - would these both not interfere with each other? I'll ask about that and if possible, I'll install the MSN too.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Confusticated, Nenya, girls, I am happy too that I can be again with you!
What is this Silmarillion "book section" ? Where is it? Oh, I shall have to spend quite some time to catch up with the news! :p
Confusticated, I have a Yahoo Messanger installed, but I wonder if I install the MSN messanger - would these both not interfere with each other? I'll ask about that and if possible, I'll install the MSN too.
Silmarillion book section? I just ment the Silmarillion part of the forum were you've posted so many times before.
I doubt that MSN will interfere with Yahoo because many people (though not I) have both.:D

[Lhunithiliel]

I have just installed the MSN but tonight I shall have to study it :confused: :p

Oh, and the Silmarillion - thing - I thought smth. new has appeared while I was away. I am however impatient about the Reading discussion starting this Saturday! After all, the Silmarillion and precisely the Ainulindale part has made me a Tolkien-obsessed fan ;)

[Grond]

Welcome back dear Lhun. You were missed (although I myself have been out of sorts and will be so again this weekend.) Welcome back and I'll be back with y'all on Monday. :)

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Confusticated, Nenya, girls, I am happy too that I can be again with you!

So, only girls? You aren’t happy to be with the guys?:mad:
That’s ok, I’ll forget it.;)
I too welcome you back!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by gate7ole
So, only girls? You aren’t happy to be with the guys?:mad:
That’s ok, I’ll forget it.;)
I too welcome you back!
Jelous? ;)
Don't be! You are ALL my friends! :D

[Mithlond]

Welcome back Lhun. :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, I REALLY, REALLY am happy to be back with ALL of YOU! :p :D
So, whatzzup?

[Mithlond]

Nothing, just chillin. :D

[Lhunithiliel]

I am thinking these days….
Some of my guild-mates and I have opened lately very good topics for discussion OUT of the Guild.
It is obvious that we read on Tolkien, educate ourselves, gather more knowledge….. And being different personalities, we all perceive what we read in different ways.
So far so good!
Knowing this, we tend to share our opinion with others, so we open new threads.
Perfect!
But here is the dilemma: - Should we open these threads OUT of the Guild, or IN it?
If we open the threads IN the guild, the Guild itself will become more active than ever….Which is good! But perhaps the discussions will involve Guild-members ONLY. I fear this might be so, because Guilds still seem to be “terra incognita” for a lot of the Forum-members and they do not enter, do not read, do not participate. Therefore our good topics of discussion will soon be exhausted of opinions.
This is precisely the reason, I guess, that makes us open threads OUT of the Guild. We thus expect more people to participate in the discussions and make them more educative, lively and interesting.
But this means that we ourselves make OUR Guild a bit “inactive”.

So, what, do you think, the right solution would be?

[Maedhros]

But here is the dilemma: - Should we open these threads OUT of the Guild, or IN it?
Does it really matters? I believe in the free flow of ideas coming from different people, regardless of their guild association. A guild is not active because people post in it's section, a guild is active because it's members make it so, even if they don't post as much in the respective guild section.
I'm personally disgusted at the idea of closed threads in the forum. (There are exceptions, ex. debates), but to take a subject and to say that only a certain group of individuals can participate is bad.

You could compromise, make a thread in the respective book section and in the guild.:)

[Nóm]

When making my last few threads in The Silmarillion section I considered placing them here in the guild. The reason I did not is because I think that more people will find the thread if it is in The Silmarillion section.

[Grond]

No problem. You might want to consider placing the links in this thread. That way, guild members won't have to go digging through The Silmarillion section to find them. I think it would be wise to open a links thread. Please do so if you don't mind Confusticated. That way, anyone opening a thread outside the guild could provide a quick and easy link to it. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Does it really matters? I believe in the free flow of ideas coming from different people, regardless of their guild association. A guild is not active because people post in it's section, a guild is active because it's members make it so, even if they don't post as much in the respective guild section.
I'm personally disgusted at the idea of closed threads in the forum. (There are exceptions, ex. debates), but to take a subject and to say that only a certain group of individuals can participate is bad.

You could compromise, make a thread in the respective book section and in the guild.:)
Master Maedhros, you did not or you did not WANT to understand my point. I am the one who opened a thread called "Open Guilds" - remember?
The idea is NOT to invite our guild-mates to a certain thread OUT of the guild. The most active participation of our guild-mates in "outer" threads has become quite a common practice!
It's the other way - when someone opens a good topic within the guild how to invite other people from the entire forum to participate.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
It's the other way - when someone opens a good topic within the guild how to invite other people from the entire forum to participate.
Well one idea is that if you find an exceptional thread within the guild you could add a link to your signature. That is what I did with the Sil discussion. I also did it with the last debate.


PS: when is the next debate? :D
Nenya and I still have a 1 on 1 to get to someday too.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Well one idea is that if you find an exceptional thread within the guild you could add a link to your signature. That is what I did with the Sil discussion. I also did it with the last debate.
I would not dare estimate certain thread as exceptional and another NOT "exceptional"!
Who would?
Besides, do you suppose everyone who participates in the forum has the knowledge of how to make a link? I, for example, don't know how!:rolleyes:

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I would not dare estimate certain thread as exceptional and another NOT "exceptional"!
Who would?
If you think no threads are exceptional (and keep in mind that I did not say in what way they are exceptional) then you think differently than I do.
I figure that the Sil discussion thread is exceptional because there are people here who have not read the book, or have read it once but do not understand it. I think this discusion is a great opportunity: that is why I find it to be outstanding. In my mind this would be the biggest event at the Forum...though others think differently.
Originally posted by LhunithilielIt's the other way - when someone opens a good topic within the guild how to invite other people from the entire forum to participate.
So you say "good topics"..and I will say "exceptional"..I guess it works out alright.

Besides, do you suppose everyone who participates in the forum has the knowledge of how to make a link?
No.
I, for example, don't know how!:rolleyes:
Well Anyone who doesn't know, or can't figure out how to stick a link into their signature could hunt down instructions...it's posted in the guild in at least two places. Or, to save time they could ask someone.
I've editted this because our Guild leader asked me to, and I want no problems with him. Here forth, I will be a little more carefull about using sarcasm in the guild. I wouldn't want to cause tension among the members, because we debate, and that does not go well with tensions because one might view it as being picked on. I also wouldn't want to needlessly hurt feelings.

[Lhunithiliel]

Sarcasm is refreshing.....
But honestly, I did NOT mean to provoke it!:( :( :(

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Sarcasm is refreshing.....
But honestly, I did NOT mean to provoke it!:( :( :( If you need any help in making links or in any other forum issues... PM me. :):D;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
If you need any help in making links or in any other forum issues... PM me. :):D;)
AH! Helpful as ever!
Thanks Master! :p

[gate7ole]

I read a few weeks ago that an RPG would start in our guild. I remember that there was a new member with experience in the subject that would start it. What is its progress?

[Maedhros]

I think that he's MIA.

[Nóm]

Ceorl has not been around lately because he is having computer problems, and it will be awhile (not sure how long) before he is back.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hmmm... is it just me or does this guild not seem like a guild that would do RP's? I don't know, but that's kind of what I was thinking. I pictured us as a more debating and conversational guild rather than an RP guild - not that there's anything wrong with RP's. Just my thoughts though.

[Elu Thingol]

I agree with Nenya, this is a guild for Tolkienologists not TolkienRPGists

[Grond]

Actually, this is a debating guild. As such, we will have Tolkien endeavors for all of our members. These endeavors will include a Tolkien based RPG for those who want to participate and will begin as soon as Cir finishes up a few of the ongoing RPGs.

No one in the guild is required to participate in the RPG and this is not an RPG guild... but the opportunity will be offerred.

[Elu Thingol]

I dare not argue with the Hammer of Melkor:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

I dare not argue with the Hammer of Melkor
Nor I. ;) I still stick to my opinion though. :p

[gate7ole]

I don't see why a RPG would be any kind of problem. We are a debating guild first of all, but people are not discriminated as debaters and non-debaters. Everyone has a wide range of interests that may include many different aspects. Let's try this RPG and see if it's working. I personally have never participated in any RPG and would like to try it.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I have nothing against RP's myself. I just for some reason never have pictured this guild as an RP-type guild. But, I am more than willing to alter my idea and try something new. So, I will welcome an RP and support what the other guild members wish to do. I will not have a problem with any RP's.

[Maedhros]

We have 2 inner debates coming up. First is the one vs one of Confusticated and Nenya, the other is a group debate of 4 vs 4. I have the topics already selected.:)
I need confirmation from both Nenya and Confu. and for they to give me a date for their debate to begin.
In the group debate I will need volunteers for the sides.

[Elenaelin]

Ack! I haven't been on in threee weeks or so!!!!! Anything drastic/important/universe altering happen? I've never really been in an official debate for this site, but as long as it's something im qualified for, i'm interested.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

I would be open to start debating on Monday with Confusticated. Looking forward to it Conf! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

As for the group-debates:
I suggest each team to be formed out of people with different guild-ranks, i.e.: 1 Master, 1 Expert, 1 Journeyman and 1 Apprentice.

[Maedhros]

I suggest each team to be formed out of people with different guild-ranks, i.e.: 1 Master, 1 Expert, 1 Journeyman and 1 Apprentice.
I would rather have volunteers for the debate. Then I will assign them in the most fair fashion that I can. I don't know if Grond would be available for the debate, and I'm looking for people who haven't participated in them.

[Maedhros]

Hello people:
I just wanted to let you know that I have been talking to a mod and we thought it best to move the Sil discussion to the Silmarillion forum, so that everyone would have the opportunity to participate. They are still many people in the Forum who believe that threads in the forum are only for the forum members.
I love the Sil, and it belongs properly in the Sil Forum.
Don't worry about the quality, I still have propietary ownership of the Discussion, and I can make post be edited or removed if they don't belong in the discussion proper. (A mod will do it.)
I still need for volunteers, to make it a more open and better discussion.
Hope for your comprehension.

Maedhros.

[Ithrynluin]

I think that is a marvellous idea there Maedhros. I'm looking forward to it.

[Grond]

I have been and will continue to keep a close eye on the Sil discussion going on. It is a great idea to move it to the Silmarillion Forum where all can participate without fear that they are infringing on a guild thread.

[Nóm]

There is now a poll open in the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil for the judgement of the last debate (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6560) between our guild and theirs.

[pohuist]

If anyone noticed my absence, (absurd idea, I know), I have been on vacation (Japan and China). I am back, however, and will be on board in full force as soon as the backlog at work is done with. Hope everything is well with all of you. Cheers.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Everything is wonderful! It's great to see you again, and I hope that your vacation went well! :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by pohuist
If anyone noticed my absence, (absurd idea, I know), I have been on vacation (Japan and China). I am back, however, and will be on board in full force as soon as the backlog at work is done with. Hope everything is well with all of you. Cheers.
Hello back, Pohuist!
But of course, you have been missed around! Now that you're back, I'm sure you'll bring new "fire" into the Guild's life!

So..... China and Japan?! WOW! .... Any "cousins" of Glaurung there?;):D ..... Or maybe a LOT of tiny nice "hobbits"? ;)
How was it? :)

[Grond]

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate anamatar IV on his elevation to the rank of Journeyman in our guild. He took an in depth test administered by Maedhros and myself that covered the Hobbit, all three volumes of The Lord of the Rings and also The Silmarillion. He missed 4 total questions out of a total of 50 for a total score of 92. Congratulations to anamatar IV.:D

[Anamatar IV]

:D Thank ya much! :D

[Maedhros]

Congratulations Anamatar IV. Just keep reading Tolkien.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Many, many congratulations Anamatar!!!!! :D Welcome to the status of Journeyman. Just remember, now that you're here, that there are many more obligations that must be fullfilled than there were when you were an Apprentice.... :rolleyes: Ok, I'm done now - someone had to give you a bad time! :D Congrats!!!!

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So..... China and Japan?! WOW! .... Any "cousins" of Glaurung there?;):D ..... Or maybe a LOT of tiny nice "hobbits"? ;)
How was it? :)

Not really. Jest plenty of Chinese food ( ** shivers **) more than enough for the next 10 years, and a lot of Chinese people around (2 billion or so). All the tourist attractions are crowded. However, it was VERY interesting and I would highly recommend such trip. Just keep in mind that there is a 12 hours time difference and 17 hours return flight.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I would rather have volunteers for the debate. Then I will assign them in the most fair fashion that I can. I don't know if Grond would be available for the debate, and I'm looking for people who haven't participated in them.

I have already participated in the last two debates. I don't mind participating in another (in fact I want to), but this may be unfair to others. If there are not enough volunteers though, count me in.

[Elennainie]

Way to go, Anamatar IV! :D Congratulations on your new rank!

[Húrin Thalion]

Quote: I would rather have volunteers for the debate. Then I will assign them in the most fair fashion that I can. I don't know if Grond would be available for the debate, and I'm looking for people who haven't participated in them. End of quote

Maedhros, you just got yourself a volunteer!

Congratulations Anamatar! You are now a Journeyman Tolkienologist (as if you didn't know it already:p )

Elen

[Maedhros]

Excellent. I need also volunteers for judges in the debate between Nenya and Confusticated. Preferably Experts Tolk. I need 4 or 5.
I still need volunteers for the next inner team debate.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Excellent. I need also volunteers for judges in the debate between Nenya and Confusticated. Preferably Experts Tolk. I need 4 or 5.
I still need volunteers for the next inner team debate.
Of course if you think the debate between Nenya and I need be judged that is fine. I admit defeat though, that topic is beyond me. If one team/person admit's defeat why judge it?

[Maedhros]

If one team/person admit's defeat why judge it?
Because that is the procedure of the debates and also to see other persons comments on it, so that everyone can benefit from it.

[Húrin Thalion]

If it's needed I can be a judge in the debate between Nenya and Confusticated but would in that case need a little more instructions.
I've got time for everything cause I'm still in school!:o

Elen

[Maedhros]

I will make a thread about the judging, you only need to comment on the debate and to tell us who do you think won or was it a draw.

[gate7ole]

About the difficult job of judging a debate, I'd like to say a few words. It is not always easy to judge unpreoccupied. At least personally, most times I take the side of the the case I believe is the correct. It may not be completely justified by the team supporting it, but I tend to agree with them and whatever their skills of debate are, I end up voting for them.
This also happened with our last debate. From the beginning I supported that Men are treated fairly and Confusticated persuaded me! Of course both girls were excellent and I'm not making any judgement here. I just say that -escepially when both opponents support their case strongly- I decide about the result of the debate before it ends! I know I should change this bad habit, but I just wonder if there is anybody who feels the same.

[Nóm]

If you decide who wins before the debate is over then I think that either:
1) You are not opening yourself to the idea that you/the team you suprort could be disproved.
2)You are open to this, but it has just not happend yet.
If 1 is the case, then I would say that you should work to change this mind frame. I think that if it is a serious problem and you can not see the debate as something which might change your mind, then maybe you should simply not be an official judge in cases like this. That way, I don't see how it would hurt anything.
So far, luckily, I had no strong opinion going into any of the debates that I judged offically, so I did not have this problem. I tend to be very open to other possiblities so I might never have this problem as a judge, but if I do, I think I will just ask that another judge replace me.

[Maedhros]

I need one more judge for the debate now. So any volunteers?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate anamatar IV on his elevation to the rank of Journeyman in our guild. He took an in depth test administered by Maedhros and myself that covered the Hobbit, all three volumes of The Lord of the Rings and also The Silmarillion. He missed 4 total questions out of a total of 50 for a total score of 92. Congratulations to anamatar IV.:D
Hey, Anamatar, CONGRATULATIONS! And welcome abord!
Please, excuse me for being late with the greetings, but lately I've been so busy! :eek: :D

[Hirila]

I'd so much like to take part in a debate. But I simply do not have the time.
If I can be a judge that may work.

Maedhros: Will you take me for a judge?

[Ceorl]

My apologies to all, I am afraid I have not been able to get online much recently due to computer problems, I am posting from a school computer without a mouse at the moment; I am also now approaching exams so I wont be able to post really for another few weeks, not until exams are over at least.

My apologies to you all and I hope to see you soon.

[Nóm]

Darnit Ceorl, I saw your post and I thought you were back for good! :D
Well, thanks for letting us know that you'll be away awhile longer. (he probably wont even read this until it is obsolete! :D)

I hope to see you (your posts) soon too.

[Grond]

I wanted to post a request here that everyone please keep my father in your thoughts. He went into chronic heart failure last night and I will be busy with him in the hospital through Thursday at the earliest. I will be checking in here when I can but wanted to let everyone know I need your prayers for my Dad.

Thanks.

[pohuist]

I will, Grond. Although we all kind of know that out parents will go some day, knowing it generally and coming close to it are 2 very diffent things -- I know this because I lost my father not long ago.

[gate7ole]

Oh Grond, I hope your father recovers soon. I'm confident that God will not turn you down. We will all pray for him.

[Walter]

I will too, Grond.

pohuist: While the brain knows and is aware that our parents will have to pass someday, the heart still refuses to accept it...

[Nóm]

My thoughts, hopes, and wishes for the best are with you Grond, your father, and the whole of your family.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, Master!
I will too!
I HOPE God helps your dad get better!

[Maedhros]

I hope that your dad gets better. My prayers are with you and your family.

[Elennainie]

You have my prayers as well, Grond.

[Húrin Thalion]

Need I say that I am also praying?

Elen

[Lhunithiliel]

Worries for one and joy - for another... Life!

Happy Birthday, Elen!!! :)

I hope the positive energy of your joy today is spread and brings strength to those who need it!

[Elennainie]

I second the Happy Birthday! May the stars shine upon your day!!! :D And Valin Nosta too!...I think that's Happy Birthday in Quenyan...anybody know for sure?

[Grond]

Happy Birthday Elen!! I hope your day was blessed with love and family.

And some good news. My dad's blood pressure stabilized last night and he is much improved. He was up walking today and will likely be released from the hospital tomorrow. Thanks to everyone who kept him in their thoughts or said a prayer on his behalf. I love you people!!

[pohuist]

That's a good news, indeed.
Its really nice to have some good news for a change.
Happy birthday, Elen. Scorpios rule.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
And some good news. My dad's blood pressure stabilized last night and he is much improved. He was up walking today and will likely be released from the hospital tomorrow. Thanks to everyone who kept him in their thoughts or said a prayer on his behalf. I love you people!!
Well, this is a good piece of news to have early in the morning even before my coffee!
I'm happy for your father, Master! :D

See? Elen's positive energy and our prayers must have reached him!

[Húrin Thalion]

Congratulations Grond!

I'd like to thank you all once afain, I'm overwhelmed with greetings it's not really a that big thing, just that I am now allowed to use the Forum.
;)
Elen

[Elenaelin]

Best wishes for your father's recovery Grond. I'll be praying for his continued recovery and for your family:) Best Wishes!

[Mithlond]

All the best with your father Grond, it's good to hear he has begun to recover.

And to Elen, happy birthday for the other day! Sorry im late. :(

[Lhunithiliel]

I wonder where our Maedhros is :confused:
Has anybody heard of him lately?
He's surely missed on the forum!

I hope he's just having a long nice holiday :)

[Maedhros]

Thanks for your concern Lhunithiliel, you are one of the kindest persons here in TTF.
Let's just say that I'm in the process of doing some statistical analysis for a friend of my mom.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah, Maedhros!
Glad that you're around :)

Say, what's going on with the reading/discussion of Valaquenta? There has been no post since November, 15th (I think). The Ainulindale - too seems a little abandoned.
:confused:

And ..... I really miss the interesting debates you and Grond used to organize :rolleyes: This Guild needs a debate and IMO - as soon as possible.
My impression at least was that debating in teams made us feel more Guild-mates :D
Or perhaps the "Ranking"-debate should be finalized first and only then it will be decided who can debate against whom???

[Grond]

The Tolkien Scholars Guild has been idle for some time and is now being auctioned off by Ancalagon to the person with the best idea for revitalizing and invigorating the guild.

I have spoken with both Nom and Maedhros in the past about splitting off to form their own guilds. I do this not because I want them out of the Guild of Tolkienology but because it is essential that we have one or two more "serious" debating guilds to give us greater challenges. Both Nom and Maedhros (as well as Galdor) have made their presentation on the thread here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7247)!

I'm not sure how the determination will be made as to who gets the guild... but I will support and aid in any way possible, whoever ends up with the Scholar's Guild. I am also sure that whoever gets the guild will need leaders to help them get the Scholars moving in the right direction.

Anyone who wants to leave this guild to assist the Scholars will have my blessing. Our goal is to make the forum a better place for everyone. The Guild of Tolkienology has exceeded my expectations and I want to thank everyone for helping us get to where we are today.

[Maedhros]

Say, what's going on with the reading/discussion of Valaquenta? There has been no post since November, 15th (I think). The Ainulindale - too seems a little abandoned.
There are a couple of things that I want to post in there, it just that I haven't got the time to do it.
And ..... I really miss the interesting debates you and Grond used to organize This Guild needs a debate and IMO - as soon as possible.
I was in the process of creating one, but unfortunately, I didn't get enough volunteers to hold a formal debate. Perhaps a two vs two debate could be done. I have already the topic selected, I just need volunteers.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Good luck to all who are trying for the Guild of Scholars! :)

Maedhros, I would be interested in another debate... as long as it isn't one-on-one. If you need me, just let me know.

[Elennainie]

We now have an official coat of arms for our Guild!! :D I hope you guys like it and find it a good representation of what the Guild of Tolkienology stands for! Special thanks to Lhunithiel, who helped tweak the design. You can view it here:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=190658
(Grond, could we please post the coat of arms on the instructions for applying to the guild thread, or the member list thread, so people who want to join will get an idea of what we stand for?)

The explanation of the symbols, for those who didn't see it on the contest thread:

The Torch
In medieval heraldry, the torch was the symbol of learning and achievement, so this represents our guild's scholarly pursuit of knowledge of Tolkien and his works. The flaming torch also represents the Flame Imperishable which Iluvatar set at the heart of the world.

The Book
The book signifies that our foremost love is for Tolkien's writings themselves (as opposed to a movie adaptation alone, etc.) The writings are the foundation of our Guild and the measure of what is truth in our debates.

The Chained Dragon
The chained dragon represents ignorance, our defeated enemy. And if one should recognize the lidless eyes and lying tongue of Glaurung the dragon, slain by Turin, one would not be mistaken.

The Scroll
The scroll at the base of the shield proclaims "Guild of Tolkienology" in tengwar letters. The choice of Feanor's letters over Roman letters is a tribute to Tolkien's linguistic prowess in creating languages and words most fair to utter.

Other
The color blue represents the sea, where we may still hearken to the echoes of the Great Music.

The gold represents all things good and fair - from Laurelin to Lothlorien, to young Goldilock's pretty head.

The stars represent our Guild's 50 members - 10 for each of the 5 stars.


Thus stands our Coat of Arms. Let all look upon it and be moved to admiration for the GUILD OF TOLKIENOLOGY!!!!

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Good luck to all who are trying for the Guild of Scholars! :)

Maedhros, I would be interested in another debate... as long as it isn't one-on-one. If you need me, just let me know.

I'll have a debate with you Nenya:) I know you said you did not want a one-to-one, but hey, it's just for fun and learning.
As long as we do it soon as I am pretty busy after next week!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Anc, I'd be thrilled and honored to debate with you! I will gladly outstep the bounds I made for myself and do a one-on-one. :D I am open practically anytime next week except for Sunday. Looking forward to it!

[Khamul]

I ask for resignation from the guild of Tolkienology to join the newly-founded Guild of Scholars.

[Húrin Thalion]

Ok I just wanted to congratulate Maedhros to the Guild of Scholars hall, all your proposals looked tempting but I'd rather stay where I am. It will be real nice to have another good debating guild and I am as said always ready to both organize, participate in and judge debates if any of those are requested by me.

Húrin Thalion as my new changed name is, I was not entirely happy with the starmaker!

[Ceorl]

I am happy to say that I am now fully able to participate in the forum, again, for about a week, then I am off on holiday, my apologies.

And congratulations to the Guild of Scholar's Hall! and all associated.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ceorl, it will be great to have you for a week, though we will miss your input when that week is over. :)

Congrats to Meadhros! The Guild of Scholars will be made ever better under your leadership, I can assure you. It will be a wonderful place! We will miss you Sting, but enjoy your new Guild. It will be all the better for your input. :)

[Maedhros]

Hello Fellow Members of Tolkienology. As you might know, I have been awarded the leadership of the Guild of Scholars. I would like to thank the forum for this opportunity to me, and I hope that I can bring the Guild of Scholars to its purpose of researching and debating Tolkien lore.
I would like to thank my friend Grond, for it was him that I entered my bid. You in Tolkienology are blessed to have Grond as the Guildmaster, a better person I could not find in any forum I have been to. (And I have been in several.)
This actually reminds me of the farewell that Bilbo gave in LOTR:
I shall not keep you long, . I have called you all together for a Purpose. First of all, to tell you that I am immensely fond of you all, and that eleventy-one years is too short a time to live among such excellent and admirable hobbits. I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. ;)
I would have liked to have some of you to help me in the making of the new Guild, and all help would be appreciated. I will not ask any members in especific because you are already part of an excellent guild, and because to me personally it seems wrong to ask someone to abandon his/her guild for another, I would love for you to help me in this process.

Avec plaisir

Maedhros.

[Elennainie]

Such an eloquent farewell, Maedhros! I wish you all the best in your new guild. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

:( :( :( :( :(

*****Lhun is in tears for our good Maedhros!****

*****"But.....we can at least "visit" you from time to time, Maedhros, can't we?..... Don't forget us and ...(sobbing) Farewel! Good luck... and all these things...you know....!"*******

A very sad Lhunithiliel :(....... :rolleyes: ......... :D

[Nóm]

I am joining the Guild of Scholars.
I think it is better for the forum that we have a few Tolkien guilds. My name will be removed from your member list, but I will be around here for the quenya lessons and for the Silmarillion Guide. I look forward to the progress to be made in The Guild of Scholars, and also in The Guild of Tolkienology, and I trust that an additional guild to compete with in debate will enrich the guild experience for all. We really are on the same side here, just working in different groups to spice things up and add variety to the way that we study and enjoy Tolkien.
I figure that some of you will be joining the Scholars too, but for those who do not, it was fun being on your team! I have to say that I have had much fun here, and I will miss being a part of this guild, but we are all a part of The Tolkien Forum.

I look forward to all that will come of this, and I wish The best to The Guild of Tolkienology.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nom (in another thread): Now if you think debate is of no use, why not speak against your guild engaging in it. Now if it is of use, what's the problem?
Now I understand why the Guild of Tolkienology has all of a sudden become ONLY my Guild but not yours.

[Ithrynluin]

I would also like to add my resignation from this guild to join the Scholars. Good luck everyone and I hope to see you around, especially in a good debate.

Farewell:)

[gate7ole]

I see that some people decided to leave the guild for the Scholars (by the way, my congats to Maedhros). I’m sorry since with some of them I had a very good communication, but we will be “seeing” each other often (and probably debate). I really believe that the new guild will reach a high status soon, so I’ll be visiting it a lot.

[Lhunithiliel]

I'm glad somebody still stays with us!

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Grond
The Tolkien Scholars Guild has been idle for some time and is now being auctioned off by Ancalagon to the person with the best idea for revitalizing and invigorating the guild.

I have spoken with both Nom and Maedhros in the past about splitting off to form their own guilds. I do this not because I want them out of the Guild of Tolkienology but because it is essential that we have one or two more "serious" debating guilds to give us greater challenges. Both Nom and Maedhros (as well as Galdor) have made their presentation on the thread here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7247)!

I'm not sure how the determination will be made as to who gets the guild... but I will support and aid in any way possible, whoever ends up with the Scholar's Guild. I am also sure that whoever gets the guild will need leaders to help them get the Scholars moving in the right direction.

Anyone who wants to leave this guild to assist the Scholars will have my blessing. Our goal is to make the forum a better place for everyone. The Guild of Tolkienology has exceeded my expectations and I want to thank everyone for helping us get to where we are today.
Well aside from your dear Master Maedhros, only 3 members have been lost. I think you guys will still be strong without us. You guys could loose a few more and still have nothing to worry about, I think.

[Lhunithiliel]

I still have quite a good memory as to remember what our Guild-Master has said!

Enjoy your new Guild! Maedhros deserves to have new and more members in his Guild, for sure !!!!

Only... I'm thinking.....What will happen when some day another new and interesting Guild is open? Are you going to check out from your present Guild and sign in the newest one? :confused: :confused:

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I still have quite a good memory as to remember what our Guild-Master has said!

Enjoy your new Guild! Maedhros deserves to have new and more members in his Guild, for sure !!!!

Only... I'm thinking.....What will happen when some day another new and interesting Guild is open? Are you going to check out from your present Guild and sign in the newest one? :confused: :confused:
If it is Tolkien based, could use my assistance, and my current guild were running very strong with tons of members, I very well might.

I quoted Grond for everyone.

Was your question for Sting and ithrynluin too, or just me?

[Walter]

Lhun, I want you to know that there will be always a warm welcome and a cosy warm chair be waiting for you over at OiE, should you ever get a tad annoyed here... ;) :D :p

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Lhun, I want you to know that there will be always a warm welcome and a cosy warm chair be waiting for you over at OiE, should you ever get a tad annoyed here... ;) :D :p

:D :D :D

[Maedhros]

I'm glad for the thanks that I have received from this Guild, but I'm dissapointed by some remarks made by some members.

1. You are already members of the Guild of Tolkienology, you don't have to state that you are staying in the Guild, because you already are a member of it.

2. A remark such as this:
I'm glad somebody still stays with us!
Is totally uncalled for. There's no need for it.
Only... I'm thinking.....What will happen when some day another new and interesting Guild is open? Are you going to check out from your present Guild and sign in the newest one?
Again, uncalled for. Each member have the right to go where they want to go in the forum. I believe in liberty and fairness. No one is being coerced or forced to do anything against their will. That is their decision alone, why question them?

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thank-you Maedhros! My thoughts exactly. The people of this Guild are not here to "be in a Guild." They are here to learn more about Tolkien's works. That is the purpose of The Guild of Scholars as well. We are all here for the purpose of learning. The Guild of Scholars is a Guild just starting out, and it needs members to help it grow and get a name for itself. This endeavor should be met with appreciation and support. I believe this with all my heart, and because of this I wish to announce my resignation from this Guild as well. I want to thank all of you for the wonderful discussions, debates, and fire-side meetings; but most of all I would like to thank Grond. You have a wonderful Guild, and I have learned a lot from being in it. I will surely stop by and read the threads here often! Thank-you everyone for the wonderful stay! :)

[Khamul]

Also, I really don't understand the all caps in your signature. This could be taken as a subtle hint that we are ungreatful, and I would hope that this was not your purpose in doing so. I will not assume anything, and wait for a response.

[Lhunithiliel]

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERY ONE OF YOU, WHOSE FEELINGS WERE HURT BY MY WORDS, TO FORGIVE !!!!

I am so bitterly sad that some of the most active Guild-of-Tolkienology-members have left the Guild, that my words must for sure have shown this. I only can't understand why you take these words as some insult! Have I ever shown any attempt whatsoever to insult or ofend anybody? :(

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERY ONE OF YOU, WHOSE FEELINGS WERE HURT BY MY WORDS, TO FORGIVE !!!!

I am so bitterly sad that some of the most active Guild-of-Tolkienology-members have left the Guild, that my words must for sure have shown this. I only can't understand why you take these words as some insult! Have I ever shown any attempt whatsoever to insult or ofend anybody? :(
I am sure that you did not intend to upset Maedhros or Sting.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nor YOU, Nom!

It's just that you misunderstand the tone of my words every time I say sth. as a comment on your posts. This, however, harms.....or at least has been doing harm on the image of the once OUR Guild (which, unfortunately, you have decided to quit!).

Maedhros, be sure that I totally approve of your actions. The fact that you have won the leadership of a guild I gladly SUPPORT and CONGRATULATE you for this! I AM BEING HONEST! (in case someone mistakingly takes my words as a hidden hint or irony).
What you have done I call development and improvement and I once again congratulate you for this success! And I wish you bring your guild to become one of the strongest at TTF!

I would like, however, to ask the former members of the Guild of Tolkienology a simple question: Did you have to leave the Guild of Tolkienology so suddenly and in the absence of the Guild-master?
Please convince me that you did what you did for a good purpose!
I personally, however, can think of only one such - to help Maedhros in his new attempt.
If this is the case, then ......

And I am sorry, but can you change my disapointment?

[Maedhros]

What you say makes sense Lhun, I knew that it must be a misunderstanding, but you are right and I will not admit new members from Tolkienology into the new Guild until I have talked with my friend Grond.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Lhun, that is the exact reason I decided to leave. I wanted to help Maedhros with the new Guild and help get it on its feet. I had a heck of a time making this decision... just ask Maedhros. It took me three entire days to actually make up my mind. I want to see the Guild of Scholars running and with members, and the only way for that to happen is if people join it. That is my reasoning. But for now, until our Grond comes back and until Maedhros decides what to do, I will stay being active in this Guild. :) I hope you're not disappointed, and I hope you understand. :(

[Lhunithiliel]

Maedhros,
Dear Nenya,
I hope you understand that I am with mixed feelings.... :(

On one hand, I appreciate what you have done .... The new Guild, the new start.... etc. I too, wish I help the new Guild and I sure WILL by participating in its activities as much as my knowledge in Tolkien permits it...
But the "tide"-out was so strong that I could not but react otherwise!

I guess our good Guild-master will never say "NO" to a member who wishes to leave, as this guild is a free one. Bu it is still a "baby" itself and it needs a lot of efforts and contribution on behalf of all its members!
Hey, who will your new Guild debate and discuss with if no ACTIVE and ACTIVELY CONTRIBUTING members are left here? ;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Lhun, I understand your feelings completely because those were the exact feelings which kept me from leaving for so long. However, I am so excited and glad to support a new guild that is here for the purpose of researching and looking deeper into Tolkien's works. I feel that the Guild of Scholars needs a lot more help in going on and growing than the Guild of Tolkienology does at the moment as the Guild of Tolkienology has almost 50 members, and the Guild of Scholars only about 6. If everyone felt the way you do about the new guild it would never grow. There have to be those who break away.
Hey, who will your new Guild debate and discuss with if no ACTIVE and ACTIVELY CONTRIBUTING members are left here?
There are 50 members in this guild... you should be fine!

[Elennainie]

Does anyone know if everything is o.k. with Grond? :( I had read about his father earlier. Is there anything new? Is he alright?

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! I hope everything is OK with his father! I trully wish him to fully recover! Grond had said that the crises had passed.

But the Master also warned that he'd be absent for some time.
Nenya EvenstarThere are 50 members in this guild... you should be fine
?????????? Count the active ones ......

[Nenya Evenstar]

I too hope everything is alright with Grond's father! I did not hear anything new about this.... :(
?????????? Count the active ones ......
Ahhh... but you see, that is my point! This guild so far has only lost three members. Yes, they are active, but do you truly expect the inactive ones to leave? Someone has to support new endeavors. I would suggest that instead of being so worried about the few active ones that you have lost that you would be taking measures to insure the comfort and activity of the inactive members of this guild. Since I am still not officially an ex-member of this guild, perhaps I can take some steps towards this too. This guild has many members... so use them!

[Khamul]

I wasn't necessarily active.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
......Yes, they are active, but do you truly expect the inactive ones to leave?
Mmmmmm....... I could not understand what you meant....
Someone has to support new endeavors.
What if I need such a help in the future? Who am I going to count on? Let's say I happen to undertake a new endeavor - will you join me then? Well, I'd be greatful, you know! :)
I would sugges