Eowyn's Love

[Rhiannon]

Eowyn's Love
by Charis M. Ellison

with thanks to Christopher


Eowyn is often thought of as being simply a ‘woman warrior archetype’, remembered primarily for her valour on the Pelennor, and yet she presents us with a complex character, one struggling between the constraints of society and her natural impulses; a woman who, despite a cold exterior, is fully capable of strong passion and great love.

Eowyn has lost both her parents at a young age, forcing her to be self-reliant. She has watched and been able to do nothing as her uncle the king has fallen under the influence of Grima Wormtongue, the servant of the fallen Saruman. Who was there to turn to for aid or comfort? Her cousin and foster brother has been slain, and her only remaining family, her brother, is rarely present and spends much of his time hunting orcs. Eowyn has no one of equal rank to turn to for help; she can not be seen to falter or show any weakness. She is forced to be strong alone, and because of her sex, she is also forced to be silent. Unlike her brother, she has no outlet for her frustration and terror.
Eowyn comes from a culture of warriors; noble, yet also barbaric, envisioned by Tolkien as "Homeric horsemen" (1), who glory in war and battle. It is a culture of men, and here in this culture of men is Eowyn, a brave, spirited woman trapped by her status and her sex in a role to which she is unsuited, as dry nurse to her uncle Theoden. As Gandalf says to Eomer, "My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seem to her more ignoble than that of the staff that he leaned on." (2) In addition to all of this, Wormtongue’s poison has undermined Eowyn’s sense of self-worth by telling her that she has no value because, in a culture of warriors, she is useful only to ‘wait upon an old man’.
Eowyn’s response to these stresses--being orphaned, isolated, filled with a sense of worthlessness--is to build an emotional barrier. She erects wall of ice, to shut out the pain of the world and protect herself. But such heavy armour can only be held for so long, and beneath her cold exterior Eowyn still longs for love.

When Eowyn first sees Aragorn, it is easy and natural for her to fall in love with him. He represents a different kind of man than any she has ever known. While the men of Rohan are courageous, they are never portrayed as kind, and the men of Eowyn’s family are blind to her suffering; a suffering that Aragorn perceives. His kindness, his nobility, and even his pity, which would have been destructive in a longer relationship, all drew her to him.
Here is a man, obviously noble; "...tall heir of kings, wise with many winters, greycloaked, hiding a power that yet she felt." (3) Her admiration is easy to understand; as Legolas says, "For all those who come to know him [Aragorn] come to love him after their own fashion, even the cold maiden of the Rohirrim." (4) Is it any wonder that Eowyn should feel a strong attraction to a man who represents a different world from what she knows? And not just different, but loftier, greater, and more noble.
Yet Eowyn's love for Aragorn, though real, is not truly a romantic love. As Faramir says, "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he is high and puissant and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." (5) Confusion over this new attraction coupled with these circumstances lead Eowyn to believe it to be true romantic love, but Aragorn recognizes it for what it is; admiration and desperation. As he says to Eomer, "...I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan." (2)


continued

[Rhiannon]

Eowyn's Love- continued

Aragorn cannot give Eowyn what she needs. Eowyn needs to be recognized and loved for herself alone, separate from all else. With Aragorn she might have been content for a while, even happy, but she would still be defined by her station and her sex. Between love based on admiration and love based on pity, an equal relationship is impossible. Not even Eowyn knows and understands this. Instead she reaches blindly for what she believes she wants. Greatness. Freedom. A way out.
Aragorn pities Eowyn; as he said to Eomer earlier, "Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear of what might befall her." (2)
I said before that Aragorn's pity would have been destructive; it is one of the key reasons why he would not have been the best choice for Eowyn. His pity would have undermined her strength and placed her in the role of a stereotypical damsel in distress. She would have been constantly aware of his pity, of the lack in her that inspired it--a failure of sorts, even though her circumstances were beyond her control. The knowledge would eat at her like acid, destroy her self-worth and leave her inadequate and in shadow again.
So Aragorn’s pity would have been. Had he loved her, Eowyn might have been content and happy, for a time, before his pity destroyed her in the end. But Aragorn did not love her, except with the love of an older man for a hurt child, and when she saw that he would not give her what she wanted--freedom and greatness--she seeks them herself, through death.

When Eowyn goes to the Pelennor, it is "seeking death, having no hope." (6) She has given up her hope in Aragorn as a way to escape; she has given up her idea of romantic love as well. Therefore when Aragorn calls to Eowyn as she lies unconscious and wounded in the Houses of Healing, she does not wake. While Faramir answers to his king, and Merry to his friend, Eowyn does not answer at all, until her brother calls her. As Faramir says, "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn...but when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle." (5) Faramir, who has ‘clear sight’, sees and understands Eowyn’s heart as no one else has. He is the choice Eowyn did not realize she had. His love comes unlooked for when Eowyn has given up, and at first she refuses to accept it, clinging to her ‘first love’ for Aragorn. Unused to being loved, Eowyn is again confused by her feelings, and even frightened a little by Faramir’s uncanny understanding of her heart.
"But I do not offer you my pity....Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without any fear or lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you." (5) Where Aragorn’s relationship with Eowyn was based on his pity and her admiration, Faramir only pitied her for a time. It was his lack of pity that allowed him to love her as an equal, strong in her own right, and not as someone to be rescued. When Faramir speaks those words to Eowyn, he is telling her more than that he loves her; he is telling her he accepts her, as herself complete, and not within the confines of any role or with any condescension. That no matter what she was he would still love who[/i] she was.
"Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her." (5) Eowyn at last comes in to her own, free to be herself and secure in Faramir’s love. When Eowyn tells Faramir that she "will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying," but that she will "be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren," (5) she is not giving up herself, or denying her nature; rather she is accepting her nature more, accepting that she does not need to be warlike to be herself. She does not fight because she enjoys it; though she is skilled and capable of fighting, it is not truly in her nature, though her nature is such that she would fight instead of sitting still and being left behind. As Tolkien says, she was not "really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." (7)

Eowyn, cold and bitter by her situation in Rohan, becomes an ice-touched maiden intent on death, believing it to be the only way for her to find freedom, but instead finds joy and contentment at last. Once believed incapable of love, she loves twice; first loving Aragorn for his greatness, and then finding with Faramir true romantic love in his kindness and understanding. While her love for Aragorn was real, it was a love of the subordinate--the love of an awe-struck daughter of horse-lords in the presence of one of the great race of Westernesse. Her love for Faramir, by contrast, was a romantic love, for he truly understood her and cared for her as she was; not where, or who, or how she was. Though neither love is more 'real' than the other, Faramir is the only conceivable romantic love of Eowyn. As Tolkien said, "It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity." (7)

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(1) Letter 131
(2) The Return of the King, `The Houses of Healing'
(3) The Two Towers, 'The King of the Golden Hall'
(4) The Return of the King, 'The Last Debate'
(5) The Return of the King, 'The Steward and the King'
(6) The Return of the King, `The Battle of the Pelennor Fields'
(7) Letter 244


The Works of JRR Tolkien (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=3)>The Lord of the Rings (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=5&x=7&y=7)>Eowyn's Love (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7799&highlight=eowyns+love)

[Eriol]

It seems that the consensus reached was that there should be one thread for each lecture + discussion. I'll copy and paste the discussion of Rhiannon's lecture here, therefore.

*********

Gil-Galad



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Yet Eowyn's love for Aragorn, though real, is not truly a romantic love. As Faramir says, "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he is high and puissant and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." (5) Confusion over this new attraction coupled with these circumstances lead Eowyn to believe it to be true romantic love, but Aragorn recognizes it for what it is; admiration and desperation.
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First of all I would like to say that I like Rhiannon's work,especially the way she proves why Faramir is the better decision for Eowyn.Bur I have one question concerning this pasage.
Having in mind the hard life Eowyn had,can we state that her love towards Aragorn was a kind of selfish one?
She had very hard life and had suffered many times till she met Aragorn.And he was the perfect choice.He could give her the admiration she wanted,the status she thought she deserved,the glory she desired.She saw in him an opportunity to have all these things and that's why she felt in love,not because it was a true love.

[Eriol]

Aiwendil2

As for the essay: I agree with most of what you said, Rhiannon, and I think your analysis is good. I agree with Gil-Galad [Edit: Sorry, Gil-Galad, I read your post too quickly - I actually disagree with you] that her love for Aragorn was not exactly selfish; but then I don't think that was explicitly suggested in the essay.




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When Eowyn tells Faramir that she "will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying," but that she will "be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren," (5) she is not giving up herself, or denying her nature; rather she is accepting her nature more, accepting that she does not need to be warlike to be herself.
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A very good point, and well said. To be honest, I was always a little uneasy about the resolution of Eowyn's character arc. It seemed to me that she did a noble thing, defying sexual stereotypes and going into war, only to be told, and to accept, that her place is not as a warrior but as a "healer" and lover of "all things that grow and are not barren" - in other words that a woman's place is in the home healing and nurturing, not in battle. This bothered me quite a bit. But I think you have eased my mind. She is not supposed to be a healer and nurturer because she is a woman, but because all people, men and women, should be healers and nurturers rather than warriors (though it is an unfortunate inevitability that some will have to be warriors). She became a shieldmaiden only because this was the only way, at the time, to be accepted on equal terms with the important people in her life (including but not limited to Aragorn); having met Faramir, that is no longer true, and there is no need for her to continue as a warrior.


Last edited by Aiwendil2 on 11-11-2003 at 04:41 AM

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

Thank you, Gil-Galad and Aiwendil2.




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I have one question concerning this pasage.
Having in mind the hard life Eowyn had,can we state that her love towards Aragorn was a kind of selfish one?
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It certainly was, in that it was a 'self-centric' love; however, there was at least an element of a 'true' love, because it continued after the point where he would have been an 'opportunity', or a gain for her. Tolkien states very clearly that Eowyn did love Aragorn, in Letter 244- "I do not think Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him." (italics Tolkien's). That Eowyn's love--or at least her mis-interpretation of it--is a direct result of her situation is to me without question.

[Eriol]

Gil-Galad



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Originally posted by Rhiannon
Thank you, Gil-Galad and Aiwendil2.


It certainly was, in that it was a 'self-centric' love; however, there was at least an element of a 'true' love, because it continued after the point where he would have been an 'opportunity', or a gain for her. Tolkien states very clearly that Eowyn did love Aragorn, in Letter 244- "I do not think Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him." (italics Tolkien's). That Eowyn's love--or at least her mis-interpretation of it--is a direct result of her situation is to me without question.
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I am not saying that sh didn't love Aragorn,but that one of the reasons to love him was her desire for glory and high status.But yes I do agree she loved him but as you said


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Yet Eowyn's love for Aragorn, though real, is not truly a romantic love.
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:)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted your question; my answer, at least, hinges on my belief that pure selfishness negates love. It follows then that Eowyn's love couldn't have been purely selfish, though it was in part, because the unselfish part of her love for Aragorn continues, as clearly stated by Tolkien.

[Eriol]

Gil-Galad

Of course!!I'm not saying that her love was completely selfish,but that there were some grains of selfishness in it. ;):)

[Eriol]

Eriol

(hehe)

Do you believe that Éowyn knew love, or even attraction, for a man before meeting Aragorn? Do you think she was ever attracted to another man? She was not very young...

I think this is a very important question if we want to understand Éowyn's motivations.

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

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Originally posted by Eriol
And finally a question for Rhiannon .

Do you believe that Éowyn knew love, or even attraction, for a man before meeting Aragorn? Do you think she was ever attracted to another man? She was not very young...

I think this is a very important question if we want to understand Éowyn's motivations.
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Since Tolkien doesn't say, this is entirely my own opinion (which is biased and quite possibly me projecting myself on the character), but no, I don't think so. Certainly not love; attraction, very possibly, since women are just as guilty of the carnal eye as men (all of that stuff about the fairer, more graceful sex is nonsense). But not a strong attraction, and certainly not a strong attachment to any man outside of her family (what was left of it), and possibly Elfhelm (I like to think he was something of a mentor to her- someone had to train her, after all).

I think that Eowyn was very naive about love, which is why it was so easy for her to mistake her love for Aragorn for something it wasn't. She was surrounded by men, but they were soldiers, and she looked on them as soldiers. I don't think she was accustomed to thinking of men romantically. Aragorn's difference from the 'brotherly' men she knows again comes in to play. Hama's comments in The Two Towers give me the impression that the men of Rohan weren't used to thinking of her as a lady, either.



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She was not very young...
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I think that she was, in the culture of Middle Earth. Faramir is referred to as a 'young man', at 35. Eowyn at 24 is not a child, but is still young.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

Good point, Rhiannon, and yes I agree with you not entirely,however. ;)
I assume her love towards Aragorn as her first one, and therefore the greatest! For the first time of anything is always the best. First love, first kiss, first try at school,etc. First,first,first... That's the risk, the buzz that you're doing something unknown and men were unknown to Éowyn in the romantic way. But here comes Aragorn and he "enslaves" her, let's say it in this way.;)
It might havenot been a true love but as a first one I assume it has been romantic...

But what do I know of these stuff... :rolleyes:;)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon



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Originally posted by Finduilas
Good point, Rhiannon, and yes I agree with you not entirely,however.
I assume her love towards Aragorn as her first one, and therefore the greatest! For the first time of anything is always the best. First love, first kiss, first try at school,etc. First,first,first... That's the risk, the buzz that you're doing something unknown and men were unknown to Éowyn in the romantic way. But here comes Aragorn and he "enslaves" her, let's say it in this way.
It might havenot been a true love but as a first one I assume it has been romantic...

But what do I know of these stuff...
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I disagree- 'first love' may seem stronger because the emotions that accompany it are new and varied; it may have more passion- but that does not make it the 'greatest'. The greatest love is the one that endures and grows and encompasses every aspect of your life. 'Love' and 'passion' are not the same thing. Passion is temporary, and only appears stronger or greater than true love.

Also, I truly believe that what Eowyn felt for Aragorn was not a romantic love. She mistook it for a romantic love because it was unfamiliar, new, different.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

Yes...you're actually right, it's not the best but it certainly is romantic! When giving a second thought, I do agree with you that's not the greatest but I still believe it's romantic!
Even when we talk about 'love' itself (as well as not the true one) romance is included automatically. Romantic means that you show feelings of love, strong ones. And the first love is actually the one that 'learns' you to feel these strong emotions.You may not show them directly, because it's your first time and fear is present too, but they exist. Because strong feelings and emotions are the essentials of love !

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

Just to clarify, by 'it' you mean Eowyn's love for Aragorn?




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Even when we talk about 'love' itself (as well as not the true one) romance is included automatically. Romantic means that you show feelings of love, strong ones. And the first love is actually the one that 'learns' you to feel these strong emotions.You may not show them directly, because it's your first time and fear is present too, but they exist. Because strong feelings and emotions are the essentials of love !
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I disagree again; it is possible to love without romance, just as it is possible to have romance without love and passion without love. The English language unfortunately tends to lump these things together and ignore the fine lines between them. And 'strong' feelings are essential to passion, but aren't, to me, essential to love. Deep feelings are essential to love.

love
n.

1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.
3.
1. Sexual passion.
2. Sexual intercourse.
3. A love affair.
4. An intense emotional attachment, as for a pet or treasured object.
5. A person who is the object of deep or intense affection or attraction; beloved. Often used as a term of endearment.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

Now I think that we are talking about love !
It is different from attraction, likeness, fancying, marriage;)..or anything else. It's love, no matter first or last! And love includes romance! If it is love without romance it is called an affair. If it is romance without love..it is just sexual relationship...,etc,etc...

Love is sacred and it includes both romance and deep feelings! But strong feelings mean that you LOVE the person and not only fancy him, while deep feelings mean that ..well, that you are in love!!! You are in the true deep love that poets write about!

[Eriol]

Gil-Galad

I see a love debate between two beautiful girls is going on here!!!!! :D:);)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

So we agree about the nature of love, but (forgive me, it's time for the sacred Sunday Afternoon Nap), disagree on whether it applies to Eowyn's love for Aragorn?




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Love is sacred and it includes both romance and deep feelings! But strong feelings mean that you LOVE the person and not only fancy him, while deep feelings mean that ..well, that you are in love!!! You are in the true deep love that poets write about!
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To me 'strong feelings' are merely volatile and of the moment; they may consume you for a time and seem to fill your world, but are not constant or enduring.

What we need are more words for love:
philia=brotherly love
agape=God's love
eros=romantic love
storge=the love of parents for a child

I do not believe Eowyn's love for Aragorn was really eros; rather that it was closer to philia. But it was combined with passion (a temporary passion) that she herself mistook for eros (in turn, Aragorn's love for Eowyn was closer to storge than anything else, I think).
The passion ended, leaving Eowyn with admiration and respect, which are in themselves a kind of love.

The love between Eowyn and Faramir, however, encompassed not only eros, but philia and agape as well.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

Yes, and if we look at the quote from your thread ;) ..see what we find:


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as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes.
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Pity? No love? Well, I may even here tend to agree with you that Eowyn's love was not a 'love' itself, I mean the deep feeling we accept as inevitable and strongest in our world. I tend to agree that she only fancied and admired him of course, but I cannot agree that strong feelings mean volatile ones!

The word 'strong' itself bears the meaning of constancy and depth. Strong....when you hear the word strong what do you imagine...?
-weakness and unconstancy
-or something which may last forever
I believe it is the second..;) or my English teacher doesn't know English at all! :p

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

Strong has many definitions, most of them primarily physical, but the definition I have in mind is

strong
adj. strong·er, strong·est

14. Intense in degree or quality: a strong emotion; strong motivation.

...So a strong emotion is intense, but not necassarily enduring.




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Yes, and if we look at the quote from your thread ..see what we find:

quote:as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes.

Pity? No love?
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I'm not sure of the relevance, but I thought I'd point out that 'look' was directed at Theoden, not Aragorn.



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I see a love debate between two beautiful girls is going on here!!!!!
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Hi, GG..:)

[Eriol]

Finduilas


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Originally posted by Rhiannon
Strong has many definitions, most of them primarily physical, but the definition I have in mind is

strong
adj. strong·er, strong·est

14. Intense in degree or quality: a strong emotion; strong motivation.

...So a strong emotion is intense, but not necassarily enduring.



I'm not sure of the relevance, but I thought I'd point out that 'look' was directed at Theoden, not Aragorn.



Hi, GG.. :)
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Yes, but I still consider strong something which lasts....I mean after all it is strong for that reason to last...:)
Oh, this logic..;)
And if it was about Theaden...sorry...*hides too ashamed of herself*...

:D Hey, GG, a beautifel girl is calling you!
...two actually... :rolleyes: ;) :D

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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Yes, but I still consider strong something which lasts....I mean after all it is strong for that reason to last...
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It depends upon the context, I would say; when you call an odour 'strong', it doesn't mean you don't think the odour will never fade, you mean that it is intense.

...not to compare love or passion with a smell ;)


[quote]
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And if it was about Theaden...sorry...*hides too ashamed of herself*...
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Don't worry, I know you were looking at it out of context :)

[Eriol]

Finduilas

:) smelly...passionately... ;) there is difference indeed. :)

But as you said it depends on the context. And i talk about love (...talking about love...talking about love - there is such a Bulgarian song..;) :D ). A strong love or feeling means that you can't resist it, YOU are actually the one who fades. ;)
And the love is strong enough to last forever (till the end of your life.. :) ) if you don't opppose it.

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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A strong love or feeling means that you can't resist it, YOU are actually the one who fades
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I disagree. A strong passion or feeling may make you feel like you can't resist, but may still be temporary.



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And the love is strong enough to last forever (till the end of your life.. ) if you don't opppose it.
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If it is love, yes. And there are many kinds of love, both romantic and non-romantic.

[Eriol]

Finduilas


Don't know...I still consider love as something sacred which is too "high" in order to be non-romantic. For me Love is the supreme form of...conscious, the supreme power. That's love to me and I cannot accept that there is one that is not romantic. :)

For love means a complete devotion! :)

[Eriol]

Manveru



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Originally posted by Finduilas
For love means a complete devotion!

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You "sealed" it in style, little one:D

Great 'debate' girls!!

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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Don't know...I still consider love as something sacred which is too "high" in order to be non-romantic. For me Love is the supreme form of...conscious, the supreme power. That's love to me and I cannot accept that there is one that is not romantic.
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Love can be sacred and 'high' and still not be romantic. Love is putting the interests of someone else before yourself, caring about their welfare, valuing them. Romance is the chemistry between man and woman.



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For love means a complete devotion!
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By that definition, I would say Eowyn never loved Aragorn at all! There is only room enough in a human to give that kind of devotion to one person. You can not devote yourself completely to more than one person because you then doom yourself to an eventual conflict of interests. If she had been completely devoted to Aragorn, she would never have married Faramir.

[Eriol]

Finduilas



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Originally posted by Rhiannon
Love can be sacred and 'high' and still not be romantic. Love is putting the interests of someone else before yourself, caring about their welfare, valuing them. Romance is the chemistry between man and woman.
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No! Love includes everything!
Love is the highest feeling on Earth, the most sacred one! It includes all inferiour feelings such as fancying...
Therefore:

Love = romance + devotion + respect + admiration + ...simply + EVERYTHING!

Love includes all!

As you said:


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There is only room enough in a human to give that kind of devotion to one person. You can not devote yourself completely to more than one person because you then doom yourself to an eventual conflict of interests.
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That backs up my thoughts.. ;)That love is one! And love is the highest! Therefore love can only be perfect! Since it is one!
It seems, however, that Eowyn indeed didn't love Aragorn but only fancied and admired him...love came next!
:)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon



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It seems, however, that Eowyn indeed didn't love Aragorn but only fancied and admired him...love came next!
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...except, of course, that Tolkien said she went on "loving and admiring him". So it seems he, at least, disagreed with you ;)

How about this. I love my father. I love him a lot. I do not feel romantically about my father, because that would just be way too weird.

Yes, love is the highest and most sacred emotion on earth. But within that there are varying modes and intensities of love.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

OMG, you got me!;)

I was wondering how I would "escape" from that trap... :rolleyes:
I guess I failed! :D

I mean that, yes, there is a father-daughter's love...and a brother-sister's love...but refering to man-woman's love it is only this sacred love that exists!
Different relationships-different shades of love, but yet ONE for every...;)


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How about this. I love my father. I love him a lot. I do not feel romantically about my father, because that would just be way too weird.
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:D:D Hahaha...I hope you don't... ;)



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...except, of course, that Tolkien said she went on "loving and admiring him". So it seems he, at least, disagreed with you
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I suppose Tolkien meant the brother-sister love...:rolleyes: or he didn't know anything about this book!!! Hahah:D

[Eriol]

Rhiannon



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OMG, you got me!
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Don't worry, Rhi is a gracious victor ;)



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but refering to man-woman's love it is only this sacred love that exists!
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I agree, and Aragorn was not Eowyn's sacred love, which is what I mean when I say her love for him was not 'romantic'.



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Different relationships-different shades of love, but yet ONE for every...
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Do you mean that I can only love one of my brothers? Or that you can only have one kind of love per person?

[Eriol]

Finduilas


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I agree, and Aragorn was not Eowyn's sacred love, which is what I mean when I say her love for him was not 'romantic'.
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But then it is not Love but an inferiour feeling...if we still talk about man-woman relationships. Or just an admiration...;)



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Do you mean that I can only love one of my brothers? Or that you can only have one kind of love per person?
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No I mean that the different shades of love are actually the love you feel towards people with different relationship-for example,the love you feel towards your father or brothers who you love in the same way (I only have one sister so I have no such problems...;) :p)..or the love towards the beloved person...they are all different kinds of loving but they are all equally strong!...or deep;)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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But then it is not Love but an inferiour feeling...if we still talk about man-woman relationships. Or just an admiration...
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Men and women can love each other without it being what you call a 'sacred' love and what I call a 'romantic' love- like I love my father, my brother, male friends, etc. It was still love (as Tolkien specifically calls it- otherwise I would be inclined to say she didn't really love him at all myself), but it was much nearer to the love I have for my father than the love I hope to have for my husband some day. This kind of love is not inferior, just of a different quality and intensity.



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No I mean that the different shades of love are actually the love you feel towards people with different relationship-for example,the love you feel towards your father or brothers who you love in the same way (I only have one sister so I have no such problems...)..or the love towards the beloved person...they are all different kinds of loving but they are all equally strong!...or deep
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...Which is basically what I said above :)

[Eriol]

Finduilas

Yes, EXACTLY!:)

However....lol,there's always "however";)...., what I meant by inferior is...gosh, hard to explain... :confused:

Now, as we agreed;)..love has difefrent shades:
-daughter-father;
-daughter-mother;
-son-father;
-son-mother;
-man-woman (by this I mean that 'sacred' love ;))
-brother-sister;
-cousin-cousin;
-grandmother-grandchild, etc..

But let me look at the 'sacred' one;):
-man-woman: they love eachother devotedly and want to spend their life with each other...That's the true love between man-woman (you know already what man and woman I mean..:) ).
There is also fancying and admiration but the highest feeling is called 'love'!
And when we say love when refering to man-woman relationship (let's call it love birds;) ) it actually means that they really love eachother!
...I hope i explained it correctly..:)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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But let me look at the 'sacred' one:
-man-woman: they love eachother devotedly and want to spend their life with each other...That's the true love between man-woman (you know already what man and woman I mean.. ).
There is also fancying and admiration but the highest feeling is called 'love'!
And when we say love when refering to man-woman relationship (let's call it love birds ) it actually means that they really love eachother!
...I hope i explained it correctly..
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...actually now I'm more confused, but don't worry, that's my natural state of being ;)

So, there is one kind of sacred love between man and woman, which encompasses devotion, friendship, etc., and can only be felt for one person. When we say that a man and a woman 'love' each other, we are most often referring to this kind of love, because it is the kind of love that ideally should accompany marriage- the most predominate (at least in our minds) male/female relationship.
However, there are many other varieties of love, and within those varieties varying intensities. There is the love between friends, the love (also loyalty) between family members, the love (and respect) for older and/or wiser people, the love (and protectiveness) for younger/less experienced people, etc etc, all of which are love, but do not include the romantic element of the 'sacred' love.
All of these other varieties of love may be between a man and a woman without infringing on the 'sacred love'. So we can say that Eowyn loved Aragorn in such and such a way, and be right: we can also say that Eowyn loved Faramir in such and such a way and be right, and go on to all the men in her family and still be right. The important clarification is that her 'sacred' love was for Faramir only, and that what she felt for Aragorn was an entirely different variety of love- not 'false' or 'not real', but not 'sacred'.

[Eriol]

Finduilas

YES! :D

That's exactly what I meant...though I confused you more... :rolleyes: :p


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So we can say that Eowyn loved Aragorn in such and such a way, and be right: we can also say that Eowyn loved Faramir in such and such a way and be right, and go on to all the men in her family and still be right.
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But...( ;) )...I want to clarify this passage of yours.
You say that we can refer to all the men and still call it love (in whatever shade...;)), but I think that it would be only in her family (as you said ) that she felt love. Because love is the ultimate likeliness, which she can feel usually in her family. The feeling she has towards strangers or small friends is a kind of fancy but not love. :)
That's it...so it turns out that she loved Aragorn after all... :rolleyes ;)

[Eriol]

Rhiannon


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You say that we can refer to all the men and still call it love (in whatever shade...), but I think that it would be only in her family (as you said ) that she felt love. Because love is the ultimate likeliness, which she can feel usually in her family. The feeling she has towards strangers or small friends is a kind of fancy but not love.
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I think that we can refer to all men and still call it love. Love does not equal like- ie, God tells us to 'love our enemies', but that doesn't mean we have to like them.

[Eriol]

Finduilas


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I think that we can refer to all men and still call it love. Love does not equal like- ie, God tells us to 'love our enemies', but that doesn't mean we have to like them.
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Actually, in every hatred there is love...Because you cannot hate someone without knowing him well which means that you virtually love him in a way, in a way that irritates you...It's just my conception, that love is everywhere and in everything, including hatred...but I mean hatred not dislike - ie...

[Eriol]

Rhiannon

I disagree. I certainly don't need to know someone well to hate them, and knowing someone well doesn't mean that you love them.

[Eriol]

A quick comment here; I think that when you love someone you want to know all there is to be known about her, but that is not the same as knowing. And conversely this will to know is not present in hatred.

I really don't think that hatred is opposite to love. I know this is more or less conventional. Sorry about that, as Yay would put it ;).

[Finduilas]

A quick comment here; I think that when you love someone you want to know all there is to be known about her, but that is not the same as knowing. And conversely this will to know is not present in hatred.

I really don't think that hatred is opposite to love. I know this is more or less conventional. Sorry about that, as Yay would put it ;).


Well, actually, I think that to hate includes love, and to love includes hatred. I know some people may oppose this but it's the way I have realized it. Love is too individual to be discussed in general...
My humble opinion...;)