The "WHAT IF...?" game-Archive

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is my vision of what might follow "if..." .
(some parts are from the Silmarillion,slightly changed and some are mine):


***……But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound.

And Melkor’s music grew stronger and stronger… Now Illuvatar tried to bring back the first theme that he gave to the Ainur, but it was too late….. and he heard how the tune of Melkor’s music took control and Illuvatar now knew there could be no turning back. And he was sad but he listened to the music and heard how dark the melody was weaving and he knew then that Arda was going to become Melkor’s realm of Darkness.

Now, even in deep grief, rose Illuvatar and said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World…….

And dark was that world, as dark as Melkor’s music had born it. Vast oceans were raging with dark tower-like waves and in the deep there were creatures beyond one’s even cruelest imagination. Bleak and dreary were the lands of this World and the tides of the ocean fiercely broke over those sad shores. No trees no colourful flowers grew in those dark lands. There were mountains of iron and fire streams were coming down their slopes. Smoke – black and thick covered the land. And in this dark fog there wandered the Firstborn - creatures of the darkness – horrible in shape and size, blood –thirsty and ferocious and the horror in their screams terrified even the Ainur who were sadly watching all that. Dark were the skies too. No stars, no moon no other light but the Void and its black vastness that ruled over Arda.

Now Melkor said to the other Valar: 'Lo!This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!'***

Lhunithiliel "Tolkien"

[Nóm]

This is like our own personal "Bag End" thread.


It may be fair to liken Eru's creation of Melkor to the invention of artificial intelligence by humans. If Melkor won against the will of Illuvitar, Melkor would then be the most powerful of all known things. He would now be The One. Having weaved into the music his own designs we will have altered the Ainur to his cause. One might also argue that Melkor's triumph would have to have ultimately been the will of Eru. If this were so than all that follows after will be in the hands of Eru and not Melkor. Now lets go with the first notion that Melkor is now The One: He would have it be that himself or his own selected Valar among the Ainur would begin to shape things. With the cruelty of Melkor the newly made things would be named unpleasant by us. Of that I have little doubt. I do doubt though, the opinion of his lifeforms about their world. Two things could happen. One being that only cruel lifeforms are created in which case they would like his world just fine, or even to hate it would be okay for them because it will be in their nature to do so and will be all that they have known. To disturb Melkor's creation in the way that he disturbed Eru's would mean that someone good among the Ainur (a rebel as was Melkor) would have to then create what we would think of as pleasant, or good forms of life that attempt to overrun that created by Melkor. The second option is that Melkor and his Valar would put into their creating pleasant forms of life along with the evil creatues for the purpose of being cruel to them. This here would be the only way that Melkor could truely cause hell without having a Valar rebel.

[Nenya Evenstar]

In the case of Melkor's tune having prevailed over the tune of the others, I believe that much of what ME really was would have been almost exactly backwards. Instead of good (i.e. Gandalf and elves) being really truly "good", good would have been classified as "evil". Evil (i.e. orcs and Sauron) would have been classified as "good". Thus, a great society of evil would have been bred thinking that they were really the good, for they could not have known otherwise. The evilness of Melkor's creatures would be the norm, and society would have been a living hell but without knowing it. In the event of one of the Valar rebeling against "The One" (Melkor), I can see events occuring similar to those which really happened except backwards. This Valar would, in reality, be rebeling against a great evil, and he would, in reality, be good. But, in the society in which he was a part, he would have been considered the evil and would have been fought much like Melkor and Sauron were, and ultimately defeated. He could not have won because Melkor would be The One and all things would follow his will. Thus everything in ME would have been backwards. Evil would be "good", and good would be "evil".

[Samwise_hero]

If Melkor's tune had prevailed, Middle Earth would not have been the wonderful place it was. Darkness would have covered all of the lands and no one would actually have know what was right. Evil things would come out of the depths and torture beings; men, elves, hobbits and all who were alike. No peace would ever be found in middle earth and no beautiful places like Lorien, the shire and Rivendell. All would be lost and none would be found. It''s horrible to imagine what it would be like. Don't you think.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nenya, I liked your interpretation so MUCH! :p I always appreciate the "breaking" of the traditionally accepted things in life and yours was a truly "refreshing" view on Melkor's possible ruling.
Thank you for sharing it with us!

I THANK all that have so far participated in this thread.
To summon it up - until now we have expressed almost one and the same opinion on the topic - we all imagine a dark and a cruel world under Melkor's ruling.

I am sure, though, that there are people with quite a different point of view.
If you know such people, drag them here to share their opinions! :p

I have to admit that once I had this discussion and I would very much like to quote what someone said on the topic, for I found his idea (I still do!) very interesting.
Let's see what YOU have to say about it:

If Melko had risen in greatest Might?
He was the brightest star, the endless light, and nothing visible was possible in his brilliance.
He burns for many ages, and he is alone.
And he burns for Eru's eyes only.
And he is apart from Eru, and he is lonely.
And finally, when his fires have cooled and his lust collided with holy desire, his fire blinks out and the void enwombs him.
And Eru's only child is returned, likely never to leave his sight again. Melko's penance casts form into the void with conscious love at its center, his tears fill the void, and his single verse fills the void with the breath of song. And in his pain he creates the world, despite his original intentions.
And returning to Eru, he saves the world from the walled sin of departure he himself coursed in the depths of Time.
One cannot stare too long at the Sun, even when one is the Sun.

[Nóm]

I agree with Nenya's too. I included the same thing in mine only I did not state the obvious. I am not sure though that even if Melkor became The One, that any good (what WE think of as good that is) would be ultimately defeated by Melkor's way. To say that good could not overthrow Melkor had he been The One, one must also be able to say that there was no way that Melkor or anyone for that matter could take over the world with evil (what he think of as evil) while Eru is The One. Whether the almighty being is good or evil seems to matter little when the overthrowing of this almight being is in question, not the nature of the being. If good and evil are relative then the same principals apply be it Melkor the evil or Eru the good.

If one argues that good and evil are not relative I'd like to hear their reasoning.

PS: I just wanted to point out that the fact that you assume that Melkor could overpower Eru proves that you think that whoever is The One can in fact be overthrown....:D To state the obvious, it seems to me than that you should also agree than Melkor as the new almighty could be overpowered as well..;)


PS again: hehehe...About the possability of Melkor not being an evil ruler I did consider that. When Eru put Melkor is his place it filled Melkor with shame which probably incluenced him to go in an evil direction. had Eru failed in his attempt to put Melkor in his place shame may not have taken over Melkor and therefore he may not have been as cruel.

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.

I love these sort of what if topics...they are totally my thing...:D

[Dwimmerlaik]

I am very impressed by Lhunithiliel's alternative.
But only to a point,even if Melkor's theme had been dominant against the other Valar,he was still a lesser being and a subordinate to Illuvatar,and could not thus dictate term's to his own creator,especially at such an early stage.
I fully realise that this is a what if?discussion,but I see the power relationship between Illuvatar and the Valar as absolute.Some of the Valar(actually only Melkor)may rebel against this situation,but the dynamic's of the relationship's cannot change.
If(leaving my objection's aside),Melkor's theme had been dominant.I would dispute that creation would have been made evil and foul(as we would describe it).
Melkor initially sought control in the design concept of the earth,he would have been perfectly happy to allow all that was good to flourish,as long as he had the ultimate power of veto.
For it was in Illuvatar's rebuke of Melkor,that his shame first appeared.A blow to his pride that never recovered.Even after this,Melkor still attempted to work for the good of the earth and the children of Illuvatar.From his initial shame,Melkor's jealousy and malice grew as he vied with the other Valar for the mastery.Thus Melkor descended into destruction and befoulment of other's labour's,not simply for his own power but to destroy other's power,thereby leaving his own power intact.
Now if Melkor's theme had been dominant,there would have been no conflict(providing his theme was dominant enough),no shame,and possibly no malice.
The world would certainly not be as we know it,but there would potentially have been less conflict if there was no immediate breach in the community of the Valar.

[Grond]

I agree that had Melkor prevailed, there would not have necessarily been a rift between the Valar. Instead of Manwe, we would have had Melkor. Melkor sowed discord throughout Iluvator's Music, not darkness.

But this is your what if, Lhunithiliel, so I'll play by your rules.

And the darkness was both glorious and beautiful, filled with a regal beauty and starkness. And Melkor coveted Varda and she cleaved to him, full willing to share in his magnificence and in his vision. She wove stars in the heavens to accentuate the darkness and to add to it's beauty. And Manwe bowed before his brother and being closest to both the mind of Iluvator and his brother Melkor, he aided his brother in all that he did. He sent his Eagles to the hills of slag and they became spirits as filled with fire and became the lordly Balrogs, the overseers of the beauty of Melkor's Middle-earth. And Orome went among the First-born and gave them meat to sate their blood lust. And with him came his sister Nessa, and they taught the Firstborn many things and the Firstborn were tamed. And Mandos was as he always was, the Doomsayer of the Firstborn and the Followers.

Aule was much pleased with Melkor's handicraft and had much work to do in the forge's of Melkor's world. He aided Melkor in shaping the darkness and in enhancing it's beauty with gems and gold and metal works. And he forged for Melkor a mighty crown, encrusted with the jewels of the Earth and wrought of Mithril. And Melkor was fair and beautiful to behold.

Yavanna mourned there was no light for her to bring about the living things of sustenance to Arda, but, Melkor spoke to her and said, "My creatures must have food, is there nothing you can sow that will provide them with what they need?" And Yavanna said, "No, my Lord... but I will retreat into Middle-earth so that I may seek to answer your prayer."

And Yavanna left for Arda with Melkor's blessing but an evil mood was upon her and she was fey with anger over the darkness and was terrible to behold. And she put forth all her Power and hallowed the Earth in the North of Middle-earth and she built for herself a fortress deep within the Earth and on the top of the Fortress, she raised a mound and silence was over all save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song two saplings sprang to life and the saplings grew and became fair and tall, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Arda. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder Days are woven.And as she poured of herself into the Hallowed Ground, the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin came into bloom lighting the world.

The Valar were stricken and confused when the first light poured into Valinor and Melkor took counsel with the other Valar and they assailed Yavanna in her fortress.... but from her abode came many wondrous creatures. At the forefront were the Ents who she had fortified and feared nothing in Middle-earth...

Well, you get the picture. Somehow, Iluvator would not have been undone.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Aha!A fellow rebel,
As an extension or divergence of Lhunithiliel's what if? theme,Grond has provided the germ of an idea that there could be an alternative to Melkor's theme-Yavanna's faith in the original theme.
Sadly,I would see this as a probable necessary step in Illuvatar's grand scheme,Melkor may have held sway in Arda,but ultimately and through much bloodletting and rebellion.Illuvatar's design's would have prevailed.

[Nóm]

As I said before and will say again incase everyone didn't read it: If Melkor's music dominated yet Eru still had the ultimate power over things; I think that would mean that Melkor's prevailing was in the design of Iluvatar all along.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Glad you like my idea. ;) Hmmm... That is a point which I had not thought of - that if Eru (The One at the beginning) were overthrown then Melkor (the new One) could easily have been overthrown as well. However, I do not believe that it would have been that simple. For with years of being The One, Melkor would have built up an immense amount of power, and I do not believe that a single Valar (or perhaps a few) could have come together and overthrown him. Perhaps if all of the Valar rebelled I could see this happening. However, I still argue my point that since the beginning the Valar would not have known what "good" really truely was. They would have been fed, taught, and given wisdom in greed, power, malice, deceit, and other evil intentions, and I can only see that a new regime, in the case of an overthrow of The One, would be equally as evil and harsh. I also cannot forsee many of the Valar forsaking Ea as they know it to overthrow the main driving force in the world in order to set up a good driving force. Yes, I can imagine one or so of the Valar rebelling and wishing for a "good" Ea and hence attempting to overthrow the might of Melkor, but I do not think that those few would have prevailed because of their lack of numbers. So, what I am saying is that even though Melkor could have been overthrown, I do not think that the Valar would have wanted it because they would have been satisfied with their leadership, just like the Valar of Eru would not have ever dreamed of trying to overthrow Eru. Therefore, any rebel would have been crushed.

There is however another thought which just came to my mind. If the Valar had been trained by Melkor in the works of evil, then they too, for the most part except for those few "odd" ones, would have had evil thoughts and minds. With this evil would have come greed. I can imagine a universe in which the Gods themselves contested for power amongst themselves making the heavens a constant battlefield. I can see that forces of the evil Valar would join together to overthrow Melkor, but they would set up another evil regime, not a good one. Thus the Valar would forever be fighting amongst themselves for power over one another, and the creatures of ME would have been created for distruction and hate, and the well being of ME neglected in the light of the greater "heavenly battles".

I would also like to point out (for those of you who said that Melkor's music would not necessarily have been evil) that I cannot see a world which started by an overthrow of power (Melkor taking it from Eru) being a "good" world in which good prevails over evil. A world which starts by one being seizing power from another, IMO, can not be pure and whole. Overthrowing of powers would be prevailent in that world, and that power-hungriness would breed greed. I do not see it as a "good" world anymore, but as a world which started with evil and hence evil would prevail.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Dear Confusticated,
Yes I believe that this would be the only way that Melkor's theme could have gained precedence.
Though I do not agree with your method of reaching this conclusion.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar

There is however another thought which just came to my mind. If the Valar had been trained by Melkor in the works of evil, then they too, for the most part except for those few "odd" ones, would have had evil thoughts and minds. With this evil would have come greed. I can imagine a universe in which the Gods themselves contested for power amongst themselves making the heavens a constant battlefield. I can see that forces of the evil Valar would join together to overthrow Melkor, but they would set up another evil regime, not a good one. Thus the Valar would forever be fighting amongst themselves for power over one another, and the creatures of ME would have been created for distruction and hate, and the well being of ME neglected in the light of the greater "heavenly battles".

That could be, but another option would be that Melkor could put into his music things which cause the Ainur to be slaves to him. Somewhat like the Balrogs and dragons that he made, only greater in power.

I would also like to point out (for those of you who said that Melkor's music would not necessarily have been evil) that I cannot see a world which started by an overthrow of power (Melkor taking it from Eru) being a "good" world in which good prevails over evil. A world which starts by one being seizing power from another, IMO, can not be pure and whole. Overthrowing of powers would be prevailent in that world, and that power-hungriness would breed greed. I do not see it as a "good" world anymore, but as a world which started with evil and hence evil would prevail.
The funny thing about these 'what if' questions...there are no limits to what could happen. One might even go as far as saying that had Melkor's music won over Eru's will, and that Melkor turned out to be "good";..that there would be a chance that Eru had not been good. I know it's whacky but it comes to mind. Also with it comes this: Perhaps Melkor would have created beings who where "good" and influenced the Ainur in such away that no Morgoth type arose among them. So, no dagons, orcs, balrogs and general distruction of the work of the other Valar would have happend. From all this may have come a world like Valinor.
But as you say, it seems unlike that ay overthrow of Eru would result in good. However, I can;t help thinking that there is a chance that such good might result of it that Eru's designs as we know them would look evil in comparison. So then it would not be the overthrowing of good by evil but evil by good.

[Grond]

Only two of you chose to comment on my "what if" continuation and no one sees my real point. That point is that the discord of Melkor was so drastically different from the "Direction" of Eru and the minds of the other of the Greats of the Valar, that there is no way that all of them would have remained faithful to his leadership. I chose to have Yavanna rebel because she is the "Spirit of Growth" and it was her efforts by which the world was first brought to "light". First through the "Lamps" and then the "Trees" and finally through the "fruit and flower" of the Two Trees.

As long as Melkor was a "creation" from the mind of Iluvator, he was doomed to be at odds with the other Valar. It was his part of Eru's Mind to feel the baser emotions which were essential to the world being in balance. It mattered none at all whether he won out over the will of Eru. The reason it didn't matter is that Melkor alone was able to feel the baser emotions.... Shame, Humiliation, Hate, Fear. The other Valar showed none of these. He was destined/doomed to act on these feelings in a way that eventually would bring him at odds with all the other Valar. It may have started as a Rose Garden but would have invariably ended in a Bar Fight. ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Thanks MOST sincerely to ALL of you for the marvellous posts!
I was simply "swept" away by your thoughts and opinions...and ART (Grond:) )

I won't comment however, for this is a "What if..? " game - everyone, EVERY ONE ! can be just right in his/her opinion! ;)

Yet, as I see it, it all depends on what "good" and "evil" are, in WHOSE eyes and mind, from WHOSE point of view... Right?
As our Confusticated has said:
If one argues that good and evil are not relative I'd like to hear their reasoning.
So, I think that it is not a matter of oposing "good" against "evil", but it is about who has the power. We, being humans and having this genetically developed understanding of interrelations between life forms, tend to presume that whenever there is a force then an "anti -force" must arise to opose the initial one. How can someone define the initial force as "good" and the "anti" as evil? IMO, it can only be from the point of view of the ONE holding the power at a particular moment. (I here remembered about Ar-Pharazon!)
Therefore, if Melkor was this "One" then it might have happened as most of you (and I ) supposed.
What about the "anti"? Read Grond's story! (the part about Yavnna - the "rebel") ;)
However, do you think Melkor could have been really so mighty as to do the things we imagined he would have?
Why am I asking?
Because of a "small" element in Melkor's character - FEAR.
Melkor feared Illuvatar, Manwe, Tulkas even at times he feared beings inferior to his race but superior in strength, spirit and courage. This is the fact.
Now, let's speculate.
Would'n fear change his inital intentions (whatever they might have been!)?
I imagine ........
Melkor, in his full power, aided and worshiped by all the Valar, approved by Illuvatar himself, pleased and guarded by the beings he himself created, living in a land that suited his tastes and likings..... And yet, he felt troubled. There in his dark fortress Melkor sat on his mighty throne and felt ....... fear
What would Melkor fear if he had already become the ONE AND ONLY RULER?
------
PS: Grond , it seems we both were writing our posts at almost one and the same time! ;) Only, it took ME a bit more time to express my thoughts! It's so interesting that we both speak about fear !

[Nóm]

If Melkor as The One had irrational fears that could not be good..(what we think of as good:D)....However: I mentioned earlier that his shame was a cause of his evil ways, I believe also it may have been a cause for his fears. So I beleive that he would have to have been without the shame to have a chance at being "good" therefore I think that if he were good he may not have had irrational fears because the shame will not have caused them. I could be mistaken about the shame causing fear though. Just an idea.

PS: To explain my reasoning about the shame causing fear. Shame causes deep insecurity which is more often than not the cause of irrational fears.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Very interesting additions since my last post! Good points on my last post Confusticated. Isn't it interesting how far we can twist these things and still come up with perfectly logical ideas?

I can completely see how shame causes fear. If a person is not shamed by anything then he/she will be more likely to open up and try new things simply because he will not believe that anyone is looking down on him.

Here is my newest and latest idea:

Then Iluvatar said to them: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall sho forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song."

Then the voices of the Ainur began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing with it, and the echo of the music went out into the void, and it was not void.

Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to weave some of his own thoughts quite unlike those of his brethren. Straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered. The discord of Melkor spread ever wider until the melodies foundered in a sea of turbulent sound; and then, Iluvatar arose and lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm which gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion. The confusion of Melkor grew in volume and vain majesty, while the new melody was sweet and sad as of mourning, but the turmoil engulfed the new melody until nothing was left but the loud braying of Melkor's confusion and strife. Then did Iluvatar lift up both his hands, and his face was terrible to behold; and the music, now only Melkor's strife, ceased in one last chilling chord.

Then did Iluvatar lift up his eyes and perceive the thoughts of Melkor and his music. "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he, and all the Ainur, may know that I am Iluvatar I will show you what ye have made." He then took the Ainur to the void and they beheld a vision of their music of which Melkor's tune had prevailed and outvoiced all other tunes. They saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked they saw that it was dark and full of things which they had not yet thought of. Sadness pierced their hearts at the sight of it and they knew that this place must not come into being, for it was of Melkor's making and not of Iluvatar's and terrible to behold.

Then it was that Iluvatar turned to Melkor and perceived his thoughts and new that power was what Melkor desired, and his heart was grieved within him. He then cast Melkor from his presence, shapless and into the void for ever so that all the Ainur would know that Iluvatar was The One. With Melkor left the vision and all the sorrow it had harbored, and all the Ainur sat in deep thought thinking about the World which had not been because of Melkors discord, and they waited until Iluvatar should again desire to hear music. Then, they would harken to his wish and sing unto to his theme and not unto themes of their own making for they did not wish to make another such World as Melkor had.

Hope you like! :)

[Lhunithiliel]

SHAME , you say....
I see your point and I agree.
Shame can become a "driving force" for the actions of somebody. True!

With Melkor, however, was it really a shame or ENVY ?
He was Manwe's brother, HE was endowed with great abilities and skills and knowledge... but he was never allowed to use them according to HIS understanding concerning the order of the newly created world. I think that most of all he would have envied Illuvatar for being able to use that Imperishable Flame to create life and he (Melkor), although searched in the Void for this flame, could not do the same.

And as for FEAR - Grond, where are you? Let's speak about FEAR - we both mentioned it and I am so interested to learn your opinion! :D
I think that even IF Melkor had the power over ME, over Arda as a whole, he might have still feared because Illuvatar was greater than him and Illuvatar was the ONLY one who could use the Flame and Illuvatar could create somebody to stand against Melkor.... and finally overthrow him.
Well, there goes my human-mind limitations - a force vs. an anti-force...:mad:

[Nóm]

There other things I could quote aside form what i quoted earlier about Melkor's shame. I beleive that shame was a bigger influence than envy in making Melkor 'evil'. if you're honestly interested the views of someone with my little knowledge then I will gather more quotes or even type a paper about.

[Lhunithiliel]

"Interested" in your opinion, Confusticated?
BUT OF COURSE!!! :p
This is a "WHAT IF.....? - "game" for our brains and everyone can speculate as MUCH as he/she wishes on the current topic, providing as many arguments and in ANY form he/she wishes!
I enjoy reading everibody's opinions! :p

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

we both mentioned it and I am so interested to learn your opinion! :D
I think that even IF Melkor had the power over ME, over Arda as a whole, he might have still feared because Illuvatar was greater than him and Illuvatar was the ONLY one who could use the Flame and Illuvatar could create somebody to stand against Melkor.... and finally overthrow him.
Well, there goes my human-mind limitations - a force vs. an anti-force...:mad:

I agree that he would probbaly have fear in that case but it would not be irrational fear and there for dangerous to himself.

PS: I will type up a paper and quote the book to explain why I think Shame was such a big cause for Melkor's turning to evil. I'll throw envy into the mix too, and any other factors I think need mentioning.

[Ceorl]

I must admit I think that you are all wrong lol. If the song had not gone how Eru had planned it, then he simply wouldn't have made it into Arda. He is a jealous bastard and wouldn't want anyone but himself running the place so he just wouldn't have made it.

But lets assume that he did make it anyway; Melkor in the beginning desired the light and to be master of the light, but being denied it he turned to darkness. If he had had the mastery from the beginning then ME would have turned out much the way it did, although Eru would probably have made another Arda to put his children.

[gate7ole]

Can I start a new What-If? After all, the week of the first one has passed.
If yes, then...
What if in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Maedros and his brothers were not betrayed by Ulfang and came to the aid of Fingon in time?

[gate7ole]

My account of the What-if story:

“On the appointed day, on the morning of the midsummer, the trumphets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the sun.” On the west side Fingon with Fwindor next to him, would march forth to Angband. With them would march the house of Hador. In the plain of Anfauglith, on the fifth day Turgon with his army clag in mail would bring new hope for victory. On the east side, Maedros and his brothers along with the aid of the loyal Easterlings would stick to the plan and draw out the army from Angband. This would be the starting point of Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
As the forces of Angbands were lured outside of Thangorodrim and battled with the east side, the sons of Fingolfin would come forth with their proud army and attack the orcs from behind. This would be any easy win so far. Then Morgoth would wisely release Glaurung and the balrogs. Glaurung being now in full stature, would be too tough for men and elves. Then the stoutness of dwarves would prove valuable, as clad in their great helms they were the only race that could face the Glaurung. Azaghal would cause the severe wound, before he was killed by the dragon’s force.
Freed by the malice of the dragon, men, elves and dwarves would unite against the furious rage of the Balrogs. But this time the demons of fire would not surround them and split the two brothers, but would have to face them both, as long as the sons of Feanor and the Edain. And who knows, maybe there would be a fair and glorious battle between Fingon and Gothmog, and this time the Lord of the Barlogs would not be helped by another of his kin. Fingon might still perish in that battle, but the victory would be close.
The host of the three races with no obstacle between them and Thangorodrim, would march forth. Morgoth unprotected, with no more forces left, might still try to fight the host alone, being himself a Vala. Then the result might be victorious for the Noldor but with great losses. However Morgoth’s pride would prevail and he would cast himself away from Middle-Earth, feeding his wrath and designing his revenge.
It would be a great battle for the Noldor and the Edain, but for Ulfang and Uldor the accursed.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh,gate7ole, I see you are burning with enthusiasm! :D

Yours is a good "What if...?" topic, but my idea was to follow the course of the events . That's why I started from the very beginning - with the creation of Arda.
I was about to post the new topic but once we have already a new one, well ......LET'S PLAY!

[Gil-Galad]

Well...the things would be much more different if Ulfang didn't betray Maedhros and his brothers.They would help Fingon and elves and people would have chance to defeat Morgoth.Melkor believed that Ulfang would betray the elves,so he expected that nobody would come from Lothlann.
what would happen?:
Melkor will send all or most of his army right against Fingon.When Fingon become to step back he will reaceive help from Turgon.That will be a suprise for Melkor cause he won't expect anything like that.He will have to send his best soldiers(Balrogs,Dragons)in the battle.The armies will lose much of their soldiers in these battle.Then will come Maedhros with the dwarves and the men.That will totally suprise Melkor.The dwarves will defeat the Balrogs and the Dragons.Melkor will lose is best fighters.Then all people,elves,dwarves will go to Angband.But after the previous battles they won't have enough power to go inside.So I believe that in the best case there will be another siege around Angband for 200-400 years,until something unexpected happen.
that's just a short idea ,nothing else;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Tomorow I sahll offer the new topic!
I have thought of a most intrigueing "What if" question!
I hope you'll like it!:p

[Lhunithiliel]

Before I post my idea of the new "What if?-topic , I would like to ask you:
Would it be from the Silmarillion or could it come provoked by some of the other written works?
What would interest you more?

[gate7ole]

My vote goes to Silmarillion, since it has the greatest span of history (and it's the most interesting)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, I would say the Sil. I really need to find time to refresh my memory, and if I'm going to take part in this conversation I won't have a choice.

[Lhunithiliel]

"There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of Manwe in his highest halls, Melkor with Ungoliant plotted his revenge. But when Ungoliant understood the purpose of Melkor, she was torn between lust and great fear; for she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding."
"Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser."
So, Melkor persuaded Ungoliant to help him. He had understood that alone he could not have defeated the united force of the other Valar. He needed her assistance.

The question is:
“WHAT IF UNGOLIANT HAD REFUSED?”

Sub-questions:

1. Would he have dared to assault the very heart of Valinor ALONE?

The events that followed:
“But even as Nienna mourned, there came messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor and bore new tidings of evil. For they told how a blind Darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the Darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Feanor, and there he slew Finwe King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwe alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. And they told that Melkor had broken the stronghold of Formenos, and taken all the Jewels of the Noldor that were hoarded in that place; and the Silmarils were gone.”
2/ Would Melkor had been able to take over Formenos and the Silmarills WITHOUT Ungoliant’s help? What if Ungoliant’s dark horror had not been there to scare the defendants of Formenos? Would they have chased Melkor away, in which case the Silmarils would have been saved….

And then……? THEN what would have happened IF….?

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Remember that you can offer your opinions in any possible form – a post, respectively changed quotes, your own story, pictures, drawings…whatever! :)

Let’s rewrite Tolkien! ;)

[gate7ole]

What if Ungoliant had refused?

The aid of Ungoliant to Melkor was double dimensioned. She (female?) covered Melkor with her darkness, so that their entrance would not be revealed until it was too late, and she consumed the light of the Trees to cause confusion in the ultimate darkness. So, two questions arise if we suppose that Ungoliant would have refused in fear of the Valar.
a) Would Melkor be able to reach the two trees and Formenos and avoid being seen?
b) Would he be able to destroy the light of the Trees?
Let’s deal each question alone.
First, we must take into account that Melkor chose the perfect day to assault the Trees. He chose a celebration day, when Manwe invited everyone to come to his halls on Taniquetil. Thus, the “streets” would be emptied for his unbidden arrival. Also, another fact to be considered is that Melkor had at that time departed from Valinor and the other Valar where in trouble not knowing what he was planning, not even hearing any tiding of him. Thus, undoubtedly, whoever might see him, he would instantly inform Manwe. So, we conclude that if there was a possibility that Melkor would be noticed before reaching the Trees or Formenos, he would have to confront Tulkas at no time. This shows how great was Ungoliant’s contribution to the plan of Melkor. The streets were empty but how can we tell whether there were a few who had stayed home? Besides, Melkor would be able to come “incognito” since we read that every time he neared the Trees, they were losing their brightness. No, I think you would be caught before reaching the Trees.
But what about Formenos? We know it was not near Taniquetil where the Valar would be gathered and even when an elf might be aware of Melkor’s presence, he would have to travel some distance to inform the Valar. The Gods could travel in fast speed, but not elves. This delay would give some time to Melkor to complete his plan to kill Finwe and grab the Sils. I don’t think that it would be a problem to him to confront the great Finwe, even without the darkness of Ungoliant.
As for the second question, with the assumption that Melkor would eventually reach the Trees unnoticed, the light of the Trees might be too strong for him to conquer. His knife wouldn’t do such harm to completely destroy the Trees as the famine of Ungoliant did. Then the Valar would pursue him, under the faint (but existing light) of the Trees and possibly capture him.
As a conclusion, Ungoliant was an indispensable ally. Without her contribution Melkor would only partly succeed in his plan and even then the risks of being caught would be great. He knew it, that is why he tried to convince her before venturing. He probably wouldn’t follow this plan, he would put his cunning mind in thought of another.
That’s my opinion on the subject. It’s not a story, it’s more of an analysis of the possible development of the story

[Lhunithiliel]

gate7ole (btw. always wanted to ask what it means:) ), as always, great post!

As for me, I last night read smth. in the Guild of Writers, that gave me an idea. Would you all like to make up a "story" out the present "What if?-assumption? I'll start and everyone of you would continue to lead on the story, of course, not as it really happened, but having in mind the "What if?- main and sub-questions.
I'll give this idea a chance and let's see where it will take us.
There we start:
In a ravine Ungoliant lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.
Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of Manwë in his highest halls, Melkor with Ungoliant plotted his revenge.
But when Ungoliant understood the purpose of Melkor, she was torn between lust and great fear; for she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding.
Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand....and he laughed in his heart.
But Ungoliant sensed he was not telling her all the truth. Could she expect anything else?! A thief he was and a dark soul. She could sense the deceit in his eyes.
She loved the deep shadows beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea. She feared the light, she hated the trees of the Valar... Why leave and go out in the light?! ...But she felt hunger. Little she had around to feed on, while there was the Guarded Realm of the Valar, the woods of Oromë, and the fields and pastures of Yavanna... "Stupid Valar!"-she thought."Do you think all this should be for your own delight? I could be the mistress of this valey! ...... Yet, the Valar are mighty!" And her ugly huge black body shivered with fear at the thought of the eyes of Tulkas, eyes burning with the fire of revenge. ......
Now it's your turn :p

[gate7ole]

Oh, I'm not a good writer myself. That's why I didn't join the Guild of Writers, although I adore making stories of ME. But I'll give it a try and I'll write my passage when I get some free time (damn these boring university exams).
As for my name, the explanation may dissapoint you. It has nothing to do with Tolkien. It's related to the football team I support (my other great love besides Tolkien, probably greater).

[Gil-Galad]

Neither do I.But I suppose that thing:
She will be scared to attack Valinor,but soon she will be so hungry that she will go without any fear.Having in mind that she is a mighty creature,Valar will have many problems before to defeat her.At the same time Morgoth will be watchig from somewehere,hidden from Manwe's eyes.When he see what Ungoliant is doing he will come out of his "hole".Then he will reach Valinor from north,while the Valar are fighting with Ungoliant.He will do what he does in the book and the stoy will continue as it's written.:)
I'm not very good at writing fantasy stories.........,but Lhu you're so talanted,I'm proud of you!!!Why don't you write something else?

[gate7ole]

Ok, I stole some time from the exams.
The story goes on:

It was perilous. She had not illusions. What this dark Vala was proposing was an attack against his powerful kin. The profits gained should deserve the risk… Then again her famine conquered her mind. She lusted the silver light of Telperion. There in the ravine, many times before her shadow was defeated by the glorious light of the Two Trees. She wanted her revenge… At last she decided. She would give a chance to Melkor, but any treason by him wouldn’t be tolerated.
A cloak of darkness she wove about them when Melkor and Ungoliant set forth;..... . Then slowly she wrought her webs: rope by rope from cleft to cleft, from jutting rock to pinnacle of stone, ever climbing upwards, crawling and clinging, until at last she reached the very summit of Hyarmentir, the highest mountain in that region of the world, far south of great Taniquetil. There the Valar were not vigilant. But Ungoliant suddenly stopped. Seeing far away the great white mountain, terror overcame her greed. The Valar might be celebrating but still Thorondor was watchful. In a sudden burst, she turned south and with great speed she abandoned Melkor.
There in the summit of Hyarmentir stood Melkor, bewildered and wrathful for the betrayal. He could not go back. There was only one way, the one leading to Valmar. It was a time of festival, as he knew well and thus his only chance to proceed with the plan, with or without Ungoliant’s help. So, he stepped forward, towards the north...

As I said, I’m not much of a writer. I hope it doesn’t suck. Next writer, please…

[Gil-Galad]

O,it doesn't suck!!!The idea is very intersting.....would you continue.......?:)

[Lhunithiliel]

.......Now it was a time of festival. Manwe made a high feast for the praising of Eru, when all the peoples of Valinor poured forth their joy in music and song upon Taniquetil. This now was the hour, and Manwe decreed a feast more glorious than any that had been held since the coming of the Eldar to Aman.
There came the Vanyar, and there came the Noldor of Tirion. All the Maiar were gathered together, and the Valar were arrayed in their beauty and majesty; and they sang before Manwë and Varda in their lofty halls, or danced upon the green slopes of the Mountain that looked west towards the Trees.
Melkor watched all this joy and splendour and his heart was filled with wrath. HE! -the greatest of all was not invited! HE!! – the mightiest of all had been chased away like some despicable servant-Maia… He laughed and his laughter was harsh and malicious. “So, what if that monster of Ungoliant refused to be on my side?!” – he thought , “Let her rot there in the deepest shadows! What I need, I’ll get and no one will ever stand in my way!”
And what Melkor wanted, was to ruin the Trees, as he knew too well how precious they were to his brethren and what a severe wound he would cause them - right into their hearts! No more light there will be over the valley of Valinor, the shadow will reign and in that shadow – HE – Melkor the Dreadful, Melkor - the Great, Melkor – the Fearful will be the ONLY ruler of all Arda!…..Now was the time! He laughed again and there was a lightning, then a dark shadowy cloud – shapeless and black, appeared where he stood before. And then suddenly it was parted in two. One part was quickly carried away, as if by a strong wind, and where it went, noone knew then.
And there crawled the other half as a dark shadow and it moved to the light, the music and the joy of the feast… and it moved swiftly. Malice and horror it brought, lust for destruction and death. Noone noticed it and those who did, were too late. The shadow wrapped the Trees and the light was gone. And there grew a great confusion among all and they cried, but knew not what to do. Now strange rain-drops started pouring over the Trees and the poison of Death that dark rain brought and it went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf; and they died.
So the great darkness fell upon Valinor. Valmar had foundered in a deep sea of night No song or tale could contain all the grief and terror that then befell, and there was silence in Valinor, and no sound could be heard.
But then a terrible sound aroused – a laughter – triumphant, malicious and cruel. And all the eyes looked around to see where it came from. And they saw the tall dark figure of Melkor towering over, for he had returned his shape again.
“Now!” – cried Melkor – “Bow before your Master and Lord!” And his voice was terrible and many Eldar and Maiar were terrified.
But there stood Feanor. He had decided to obey Manwe and come to the feast, but he had come not in raiment of festival, and he wore no ornament, neither silver nor gold nor any gem; and he denied the sight of the Silmarils to the Valar and the Eldar, and left them locked in Formenos in their chamber of iron.
Now, none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë and when he now saw what his bitter enemy had done he was filled with rage.
“Bow I shall not before you, Morgoth!” – he cried. “Cursed you are among the Gods and you will never reign over the Eldar, for WE are the Firstborn – the Children of Illuvatar! Do you, in your madness, believe HE will let you rule in his name?!”
“I hear you miserable creature!” – laughed back Melkor. “How dare you say these words to me – the Dark Lord!” And then he mocked - “Oh, and where are your precious stones? If you believe you have them and your father well protected in Formenos, then you are wrong!”……….

Now it's your turn :p

[gate7ole]

Mmm, I had a difficulty to choose whether Melkor will battle with Tulkas or not. Finally I didn't decide and I'll let the next one do:)

And he opened his hand and the light of the Silmarills poured in front of Feanor’s stoned stature. Then the three gems feeling the sorrow and wrath of their creator, revenged their burglar and started to burn him and his hand was clenched in pain. Nonetheless Melkor closed his fist and raising his malicious hammer, stroke once on the ground. But this sudden quake arose Feanor from his torpidity and bounced forth he screamed.
“I curse you, Morgoth, Dark Lord of emptiness, I vow to my father’s rest that I will revenge you for the blood you have split, for the light you have drained. You have provoked the wrath of the Noldor and this you will repent many times.”
And he grabbed his sword and leapt once more forth.
“No vows can help you now, pitiful slave of Manwe. No Noldo and no Vala can stop my conquer now.”, laught Melko.
He said it lightly and as soon as he raised his hammer for another stroke, yet this time against Feanor, the terrible voice of Tulkas seized the air. He and Orome had started a-hunting. Now Melko’s scar in his face by Tulkas’ punch ached again and forgetting Feanor he leapt back and pondered the situation. Dealing with Tulkas was not of his original plan.
“He will have my revenge in due time”, he thought. “I’ll let them weep now for the loss of their trees”.
Thus, giving a last stroke on Feanor, which he readily avoided, he turn north and with great speed run towards the Grinding Ice.

[Lhunithiliel]

Super! :p

But, remember this part of my "story"?
!…..Now was the time! He laughed again and there was a lightning, then a dark shadowy cloud – shapeless and black, appeared where he stood before. And then suddenly it was parted in two. One part was quickly carried away, as if by a strong wind, and where it went, noone knew then. (I intended THIS part to be the "thief" of the Silmarils, but as Melkor had already got hold of them somehow... magic?)
But let the story go on...
The North! The Ice lands... There he could be safe and perhaps the ice will heal his hand burning with those gems in it! And swift was his march to those far lands. ... But then Melkor felt that the other part of his own, was calling him from another place.....Sweet to his ears was that call, for it was filled with lust for blood and death...And Melkor knew where it came from - the Gates of Formenos. Now the pain that the Silmarils caused him was so great! But the only thing he could think of was REVENGE! And he will have it! He will fly to Formenos and he will rejoin with his other part and become invincible! He will ruin Formenos and slay Feanor's father and all his men...THEN he will finally avenge that boastful Eldar! ...
From the highs of Taniquetil Manwe saw a dark cloud flying fast to Formenos. And he knew it was Melkor and he knew that the first blood will soon be spilled in the Blessed Realm if Melkor reached his aim. Now rose the migthy Vala and he summoned his eagles. "Fly!' - he said to them - "Fly fast and warn the Masters of Formnos and when the right moment comes, fight the Dark Lord and give my blessing for the Firstborn!" .....And the air over the darkened valey of Valinor felt a fresh and strong wind - the Eagles of Manwe were flying over it and the dark shadows were cast away by the wind their mighty wings brought....
And with the wind and in the new light, down across the valey ran wildly Feanor, and his sons followed, and many Noldor were with them - their shining swords up and ready for fight. Ahead of this little army rode Orome and the sound of his horn could be heard far in the distance. And by his right side was Tulkas. Fierce was his face and heavenly fire was burning in his eyes.... They all moved fast and soon they could see the Gates of Feanor's castle.....

Your turn :p

[Nenya Evenstar]

Great story! :)

But, with the sight of the gates came despair into the hearts of the great host. Many of the Noldor cried aloud for there before them stood the gates of Feanor, now blackened and wrenched from their posts in ruin. Feanor's heart gave way within him - for what reason he knew not, but he knew that something terrible had happened in his halls. The black cloud of Morgoth, the Black Enemy, covered the halls and from inside could be heard a great wailing. The Thorondor flew into the reaking smoke as Orome let blow a great blast from Valaroma. Tulkas sprang through the twisted gates followed closely by Feanor, who would not be stopped, and together they ran up the front steps on Formenos. With the coming of Tulkas a dark shadow drifted out of the halls and sped away to the north like the wind. Close on its heals was Tulkas and behind him rode Orome, blowing the heavenly horn with all his might.

Feanor, however, stayed at his home with the rest of the Noldor. When they entered the halls they came upon Finwe lying on the ground as though smitten with a deadly wound. The elves of Feanor's house were surrounding him, but relief, not sadness was in their eyes. "My Lord," they said, "this dark shadow entered the gates of Formenos and broke them. It bore down into your stronghold and ascended onto your father, Finwe. However, we would not forsake him, and we overcame our fear of the darkness. We thought he had died, but your father lives still." With a grateful heart and tears pouring down his face, Feanor embraced his father who was weak, but still alive. He cursed Morgoth for causing the ill health of his father, but he praised Illuvatar for allowing Finwe to live. Then, in the midst of the thankful group of Noldor, a shadow decended. Melkor had not forgotten about his second half - indeed his plan was only beginning to unfold.

Oops! Forgot this part: Your turn :p

[gate7ole]

“We meet again, servant of Manwe and this time not even Tulkas will save you.” laughed Melkor at Feanor’s face. Then he raised Grond and gave a heavy strike on him. Feanor though, was not unprepared and leapt on the right. No other elf stood in front of the Dark Lord. So, began a great battle that no tale dares to contain all its grief and sorrow. Two strikes gave Melkor and twice did Feanor leap back. At last another sudden crush kneeled him but good fate finally came and Melkor proudly left his feet unprotected. Feanot grabbed the chance and with furious rage he thrust Melkor’s leg with his sword. So vicious was the scar that Melkor’s scream quaked the earth and all the elves in the room shivered with fear. But Feanor’s heart did not faint and he arose again and warded off Melkor’s crush. But he was exhausted by the battle and would not stand up more. Then Grond was raised for a final time and falling would have crushed Feanor’s body, but for Finwe’s intervention. He had gathered his last strength, came between the two combatants and received the fatal blow. So, ended the great king of Noldor.
Next to Finwe’s body laid Feanor who receiving a part of the blow had lost all his strength. Melkor arose in full stature and mocked. “Take now your father’s body and give it to Manwe to protect it. You provoked my Wrath and this was your punishment.” And turning back he walked away, letting Feanor live, for this was also his way, to spread lies and mischief among his foes. And as he was drawing away unhambered through the dismayed elves, Feanor gathered his last breath and vowed. “I curse you Morgoth. I will hunt you and revenge my father’s blood.”. Morgoth didn’t heed him and left the halls.
“I must find my other half”, he thought, “we have problems there”. And turning north he headed towards Helcaraxe.


(sadly I couldn't let Finwe live)

[Nenya Evenstar]

(I am glad you didn't let him live - I had hoped that the story would run that way.)

The shadow of one half of Melkor's body drifted out of the halls of Feanor leaving behind sorrow and despair. It drifted north to where the sky could be seen strewn with lightning and bursts of fire, and there it waited unseen in the shadows. A battle was taking place between Tulkus, Orome, the Eagles of Manwe and one half of Melkor's evil spirit. It seemed that Melkor was hard put to defend himself from the numerous attacks of the mighty Valar and the mighty servants of Manwe, but he defended himself well though he received many injuries which scored his body, for he had indeed taken shape as well as he could having only one half of his spirit with him. The other half waited. The battle was long and terrible, and few songs have survived to tell the tale of how Tulkus wrestled with his greatest foe, how Orome would blow the great Valaroma to the very weakening of Melkor, and how the Eagles would brave the very fires and sword of Melkor, the evil one, to conflict him with painful gashes. But deep in his heart, in the midst of his despair, Melkor laughed aloud. He knew that he could not be vanquished here for he was not whole, and half of his spirit still survived untouched. It was just at that moment, when Melkor cackled in the uttermost depths of his heart, that the sword of Tulkus swept across Melkor's body and he fell. His breath came in labored gasps and he knew that he would have passed away and out of all knowledge but for his little secret. "You have met your doom, dog and demon of evil!" Tulkus cried. But Melkor only laughed. "Your days of tyranny in Ea are ended!" Tulkus again cried as he smote Melkor on the crown, and the spirit of Melkor fled out of his body. The two Valar stood puzzled for they knew that Melkor's spirit itself should have been vanquished and utterly destroyed, and yet they knew it was not so. Their hearts were filled with the burden that they had been deceived, and they were filled with anger and sorrow.

[Gil-Galad]

Hey guys if I were you I would write a whole book.I must confess I like all your ideas.Be careful,cause you may write things better than Tolkien!:D ;) :p :cool: :)

[gate7ole]

Far ahead, a great storm aroused. Clouds filled the clear sky and lightning burst. A darkness spread all over and every bird and animal was filled with terror. But no mist, no darkness could restrain the wrath of Tulkas. With Orome just behind him they fled towards the mist. They knew what had caused it and were prepared this time to get rid of Morgoth once and for all.
Melkor had not been idle. After the joining with his other wounded half, he had still the strength to run and escape from the hunt. He was after all the mightier Valar and even if he couldn’t outdistance Tulkas, his cunning and misdirection aided him and confused his foes. He had still the ability to take the shape of a shadow and befog the others, though this ability was soon to be lost.
Thus it came that Melkor arrived safely at Helcaraxe and neither the birds and beasts of Orome, nor the speed of Tulkas managed to reveal his hiding. From there the road to the Iron Mountains and his tower on Thangorodrim was free. The other Valar knew it as they also knew that they could not at the moment fight into Morgoth’s dark dungeons. So, they arrived back in Valinor and informed Manwe of the unsuccessful hunt for Melkor.

I believe that here ends this section. From here, Silmarillion describes the following events much better.
Maybe it’s time for another What If section. Lhunithiliel, give the next subject, and of course start the story.

[Gil-Galad]

May I start the next "IF QUESTION "?:cool:

[Nenya Evenstar]

I have an idea for a "What If?" question in the future. It's from LotR though....

What if Aragorn had decided to follow Frodo instead of Merry and Pippin after the Fellowship was broken?

We should do this one sometime because I think it would be very interesting and fun.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I have an idea for a "What If?" question in the future. It's from LotR though....

What if Aragorn had decided to follow Frodo instead of Merry and Pippin after the Fellowship was broken?

We should do this one sometime because I think it would be very interesting and fun.
First Aragorn won't find Frodo so easy.He won't take part in the battle for Minas Tirith and the white tower will be destroyed.I doubt Merri and Pippin will be saved.
As a whole nothing good will happen:(

[Nenya Evenstar]

That's what the "What If" part is for. I'm personally curious as to what we would come up with as a group.

[gate7ole]

So, Gil-Galad, you too have interesting ideas. You should participate in the unfolding of the story. It doesn't matter if you are not a magnificent writer, most of us aren't too.
About the next subject, Nenya's proposal is interesting. If there isn't any other proposal (e.g from Gil-Galad) we can start with this one.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I am ready to start whenever everyone else is. Gil-Galad, do you want to use your What If? idea? It's fine with me if you do. Let's just get this baby going! :D

[gate7ole]

Come on, start it Nenya, this thread has already been stable for many days

[Lhunithiliel]

So, what is it going to be?
Nenya's suggestion is wonderful, but Gil-Galad has not yet offered his....
Please, GG, post or we'll take up Nenya's suggestion, which is so interesting, that I have already thought of some things to prepare and post...;)
----------------
Add: Oh, I forgot to congratulate you for the wonderfull stories you wrote! GREAT! I was so moved with Finwe's death! You know, I hoped no Elvish blood would be spilt..... But as I was not here to "defend" "my" race.....;)

Now, let's move on!

[Gil-Galad]

OK.Here's my "What if":
"What if Turgon had listened Ulmo and Tour? "
I've always thought that elves would have had better chance if Turgon had listened them.My persnonal view is that this is Turgon's mistake and Morgoth would have had many other problems with elves.
What do you think?
I hope you like this "What if"question.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

I like that idea and do not care if we do mine your Gil's first as long as we do one soon and stop running around in circles. I would have started mine yesterday if I hadn't been too busy. Then Lhun came back, I wanted to see what direction she wanted this thread to go in before I began a new "What If?". So now, who's starting? If the new story isn't going by, let's see, 4:00 PM tomorrow I will start mine.... hehehe.... *laughs evily* :D ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I like that idea and do not care if we do mine your Gil's first as long as we do one soon and stop running around in circles. I would have started mine yesterday if I hadn't been too busy. Then Lhun came back, I wanted to see what direction she wanted this thread to go in before I began a new "What If?". So now, who's starting? If the new story isn't going by, let's see, 4:00 PM tomorrow I will start mine.... hehehe.... *laughs evily* :D ;)
As a jentleman*laugh* I would say that yours should be first.Ok?When we finished writing about it Lhu will re-write my "What if".Do you agree?
Hey,Lhu,will you re-write my "What if "when Nenya Evenstar is finished?I may not be in "PLD" to write it.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I will gladly accept your offer! It is very gentlemanly of you! :) Thus begins the new What If? question:

It was a sad day for the man Aragorn and his two companions, Legolas the elf and Gimli the dwarf. Fate would have it that all of Aragorn's choices had been amiss and as a consequence one of his late companions was dead and four of them were missing. Indeed, the three companions who were still together had even just a few minutes ago said farewell to Boromir of Minas Tirith and commended his body to the Anduin River, for it was the best honor they could give to the dead in such a place as they now were. Boromir had died defending Merry and Pippin, two halflings from the distant land of the Shire, from orcs, but his defence had been in vain and the two hobbits had been taken captive by the invading orcs. Frodo and Sam, the other two members of the company, had forsaken their companions and taken up the task of going to Mordor to destroy the One Ring of power, the enemies most desired possession, upon themselves so that they would not have to commit their friends and loved ones to such a desperate road. For such was the quest of the original fellowship, but those two had taken it up and left the others behind. The Fellowship was now broken and upon Aragorn as its leader was placed the charge of deciding who to follow. To follow Frodo and Sam to help them accomplish their task or to follow Merry and Pippin and not abandom them to torment and death? Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli sat for a while and took counsel from each other.

"Our choice then," said Gimli, "is either to take the remaining boat and follow Frodo, or else to follow the Orcs on foot. There is little hope either way. We have already lost precious hours."

"Let me think!" said Aragorn. "And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!" He stood silent for a moment. "I will follow Frodo and Sam, for Frodo is the Ringbearer, and his quest must not fail or all of Middle-earth as we know it will fail. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Ringbearer is in our hands, and we must see his task through to the end. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark until we reach them!"

[gate7ole]

Mmm, I see a problem. This What If question just started, although very exciting, needs... half the book to be rewritten. It's not like the others that affected a chapter. Now, we have to write down a completely different account of the War of Ring. It should take us weeks and numerous posts. But let's do it and see how it goes on. I suggest in some cases that we give a summary of the events and not a lenghty descriptive account.

[Lhunithiliel]

I like Nenya's topic.
And as for G-G's one, I'll remember it and it will be the next one.

Now, the form of writing a fiction-story of our own is only ONE of the forms for our opinions on a topic.
This time I have the "crazy" idea of making up a film on Nenya's topic.
What do you say?
Tomorrow I'll post my version of the first "episode" and you'll say whether it will work out in this way ;) :p Besides, it will be much more convenient and not that long to retell the story under the "what if...?"-condition, won't it, gate7ole?!
I have thought of picking up some pictures from PJ's film LOTR to back up my script. Unfortunately, I am not a computer wizard and I can not make a web-page, though it is just what I need for my new movie-script - idea. The pictures, therefore, will have to be opened apart from the text. It would be much easier if they have let us show pictures on-screen! :(
However, I'll do my best as to show you my idea....
It may take me a little longer, though. So, if you do not "see" my movie tomorrow, then it will be ready on Monday, I promise! :p :p
HAVE FUN!!! :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, I really like the film idea. It'll make for a fun game everytime if we keep changing our approach to how we play. Does my post fit for an intro to the movie? I kind of just made it to explain how Aragorn made the choice to follow Frodo and Sam. I think it would work as a kind of introduction to the main part of the film.... even though it isn't all that movie-like.

[gate7ole]

Very good Lhunithiliel. I see you are full of ideas and always surprise us. I'm waiting for the first "act" of the film.
(Ah, and if you have questions in any activity concerning the computers e.g the web-page, I can help you; this is after all what I study:cool: )

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, I'm pleased that you liked the idea!
Of course, everyone is free to participate in this thread in the form he/she finds it most suitable!
But since you liked the movie suggestion, let's try it this time and if it works, it's going to be great fun.
Now. Nenya, yes, your story could be considered as an intro to the "film"....or as long as you wish to be a co-writer of our film-script why not take the chance and until I make up my "Episode I" you may change your intro from a story to a script...You know how they are doing these things, don't you?! ;) :p

And gate7ole (will you eventually reveal the mistery of your forum name? ;) :p ) thank you very much for your offer! I was speaking about a web-page, because in my mind it would be much easier to have the pictures and the lines of the script in one place.... I'll think about the way I can make my "film" easier accessible and if I have to, I'll turn to you for help. OK?

The last thing to say here is that you too have to think of the possible continuation of the "movie" after my "Episode I".
At first I thought we should have decided about the story line all together but then I thought that it would be more challenging and more fun if every one of us presents his/her "episode" as a surprise!
That is what the "What if...?" - whole idea is about! :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, I'll change it into script form and post it when I'm done even though I have no idea what "script form" is like.... I'll just wing it unless anyone has any suggestions. I've never seen a script before in my life. :o

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is Episode 1!
The pictures are in the attached file.
ENJOY IT!

Camera?>>>> Rolling!
Sound? >>>> On
A C T I O N !

On the bank of the river.
Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn are standing and discussing the new routes to follow.

Aragorn: My friends, the Fellowship has not yet been broken. Not until we are alive! Not until Frodo and Sam are on their quest! We have sworn an oath – we have to defeat the Dark Lord! The Ring of Power has to be taken to Orodruin and cast into the fires of Hell!
Pauses
I worry about the Ringbearer! Could he fulfill a task so hard and perilous? (pic.No:1)

Frodo and Sam – standing on a top of Emyn Muil. (pic.No:2)

Frodo: Sam, I’m glad you have come with me! Oh, Sam, I am so deadly frightened! I wish Aragorn were now here with us! Why, oh why I’ve ever got in possession of this devilish thing?! (touching the ring which is hanging on a chain on his neck).
Sam: Don’t be sad, Master Frodo! I’ll be always with you no matter where our destiny leads us to! I too wish Aragorn and the others from the Fellowship were here with us. But we had to go! Remember what Gandalf said? “Sometimes the fate of the world lies in small hands”. We have to go now, Master.

They go down a slope.

Back to the group of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli

Legolas: Aragorn, I see your heart has decided to follow the Ringbearer. But what about the other two halflings? Are we to leave them perish in the hands of the Orcs? (pic. No:3)
Gimli: I say, we go hunting some Orcs, Master Aragorn! My axe is restless!
Aragorn: pausing > I wish Gandalf were here. He would know what the right way would be! (pause) No, Gimli. I will follow the Ringbearer. My heart tells me I have to help him. But you two – I would like you to follow the Orcs that captured Pippin and Mery and save our friends. What do you say? (Pic.No:4)

Legolas and Gimli are exchanging quick glances.

Legolas: I say, Aragorn, son of Arathorn, that you have spoken wisely. I wish I’d rather come with you, but now it seems the hour has come for us to go separate ways. I’ll accept the company and the help of the Dwarf to save the halflings ….. (turning to Gimli) if my new friend here accepts it, too. (Pic.No:5)
Gimli: You have my axe, Master Elf!
Aragorn: So, it is decided. Let’s not delay us. Go, my friends and follow your destiny…… and I will follow mine! (Pic.No:6)

A close up on the eyes of Aragorn and Legolas – eyes full of determination! (Pic.No:7+8)
Aragorn jumps into a boat to cross the river > He sails off the shore > turns back, raises his arm and then puts a hand on his chest. They hear his voice from afar:

Aragorn: Farewell, my friends! We’ll meet again! Let hope and faith guide us! Farewell!

Back to Frodo and Sam. They are trying to find their way down the mountain. It is seen they have been doing this for some time now and they seem exhausted. They stop. (Pic.No:9)

Frodo: Sam, I am afraid we’re lost. I can’t find a way down this mountain!. And it’s getting darker.
Sam: I am afraid you’re right, Master Frodo. Let’s rest for a while and think what to do next.
Frodo: Rest? Sam, we do not have the time to rest! We have to hurry! The fate of so many peoples lies in our hands…… sighs…….. What a burden!

The voice of Aragorn at this moment:

Aragorn: A burden only the bravest soul can bear, Frodo! But do not be troubled, for here I have come to help you!

And they see him standing near them. Aragorn comes closer and they embrace him with joy. (Pic.No:10)

Frodo: Oh! Aragorn! I am so happy you have come!
Sam: Master Aragorn! Then turning to Frodo > You see, Master Frodo?! Now we are not alone and lost! The Strider…..Sorry, Master Aragorn! … Aragorn, the rightfull King of Gondor himself is with us! Now the quest is safe! I know it!…. This deserves a good dinner! Let me cook something for you!
Aragorn: I am glad to be with you too, my friends! But no, Sam! It is not safe to light up a fire! The eye of Sauron does not sleep! Follow me. I know a place we can have a rest. We’ll go on when night falls.

They follow him and he leads them to a cave. As they pass in the falling darkness of the evening a strange crawling figure is seen on a rock behind.

Gollum: Oh, poor Gollum! How shall he now take back his preciousssss? It would have been so easy to take it from the two fools of hobbits, but now this awful Man is here……

In the cave Aragorn, Frodo and Sam are sitting around a small lit fire. Sam is still chewing something, Aragorn is smoking his pipe and Frodo is sitting with a worried expression on his face, looking at the fire. This is mixed with a brief vision of the land of Mordor. (Pic.No:11+12)

Frodo: Tell me, Strider, have you ever seen the fires of Mount Doom?
Aragorn: No, Frodo. But Gandalf told me about that place! It is hell itself, my little friend!….But Don’t you worry! I am the Strider! I will lead you there safely!

Frodo stands up, approaches Aragorn, takes off the ring and kneels before Aragorn:

Frodo: Aragorn, would you take the ring? I know I promised the Council to take it to the Land of Mordor and destroy it…..But…But I think you are must have this honour! Aragorn, please, accept it!

Aragorn is looking at the ring tensely. (Pic.No:13)

Aragorn: You are giving it by your free will, Frodo! And I thank you for offering to me this great honour!….in a quieter voice… But will I find the courage and the strength to accept it?……
Frodo: You are Isildur’s heir, Aragorn! You of all people, elves and all creatures in Middle Earth have the right to fulfill the greatest task of our age…..

Aragorn is silent for some time. Sam is carefully watching. A close up of Frodo’s hand with the Ring on its open palm. The sign on the ring glows. (Pic.No:14+15)

Frodo: Take it Aragorn! You are the King! Yours is the faith to save this world from the Dark! I’m giving it to you freely!

Aragorn looks carefully into Frodo’s eyes

Aragorn: Wise words you are saying, my friend!…. All right, I’ll take it. I’ll free you from this great burden……

Aragorn slowly takes the ring and carefully puts it around his neck.

Aragorn: Now I am wearing the “Good” and the “Evil” on my chest!

A close up of his chest where the Ring is hanging aside Arwen’s jewel.
Then Aragorn touches Arwen’s “evenstar” .(pic No:16)

Aragorn: Let your light guide me and protect me from the evil!

The “evenstar” flashes and the Ring shrinks (No picture available!)
Frodo sighs with relief. Sam is silent.

Aragorn: We have to go now. Long is the way that lies before us. We’ll travel at night.

In a dark-blue darkness of the fallen night the group is shown going down a slope.
Some distance behind them a small shadow (Gollum) is carefully following them. Suddenly he turns up his head and his eyes flash with greenish sparkle in the dark.

[Lhunithiliel]

The pictures:

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, it's YOUR turn now! ;)
I'm waiting to see what continuation will be provided and then I'll think of a next episode....
We'll have to carry on and finish this "movie", people!:p

[gate7ole]

Episode 2
Camera?>>>> Rolling!
Sound? >>>> On
A C T I O N !

From afar, we see the slope of a mountain, dark and threatening. Close-up on a small company of 3 people marching on the barren land through some low bushes.

Sam: We have been walking for a quite long time. Isn’t it time for a small break? Do you feel alright Mr. Frodo?
Frodo: Don’t worry about me, Sam. Since I gave the ring, I feel much better.
Sam: I’m happy to hear is sir. But why is Aragorn so quiet?
Frodo: I don’t know. I suppose he’s been pondering our next path.

Show Aragorn marching silent and thoughtful.

New scene. The ground is now flat and full of pools of water. The company has entered the Dead Marshes

Sam: What is wrong with this place? It gives me the creeps.
Frodo: Yes, I feel something deadly happened many years ago.
Aragorn: A great war took place here, before the fathers of our fathers were born. But let us not speak of such things now that…

A strange noise like hiss comes from behind.

Sam: Did you hear something?
Frodo: Gollum I guess. He’s been following us for many days.

Aragorn goes silent for one more time without finishing his last phrase.
Sam looks down, inside a green pool. He sees corrupted faces of elven and orkish warriors. He gives a shallow cry. Frodo runs next to him.

Aragorn: Don’t look at them. You won’t like what you’ll see. They are past memories of those who fell in the battle.
Sam (with trembling voce) : But I saw myself in this pool… dead.
Aragorn: It’s the moon. Let’s move on. We shouldn’t stay in this foul place any more.

Show the waxing moon on the gloomy air.
Then the camera turns around and shows a black figure on the air. A deep darkness hids the moon. Sam and Frodo cast themselves down. Aragorn stands silent. The shadow passes quickly.

Frodo: What was it?
Sam: I don’t know Mr. Frodo but I agree with Strider. We must leave this horrible place immediately.

Close-up on Aragorn’s face. He seems disturbed. His hand is touching his chest, where the chain of the Ring is hang.

Aragorn: It was a Nazgul. You have met them before. The Black Riders. They are summoned again. The war has begun.

Far ahead, the menacing Mountains of Shadow appear. Close-up…
The company has reached the roots of the Ephel Duath. Morannon is standing between two tall mountains.

Aragorn: As I feared. The Black Gate is guarded. We cannot pass through it.
Sam (disappointed) : Isn’t there any other entrance.
Aragorn: There is, but I do not dare it. Its name is Cirith Ungol.
Frodo: What do you suggest then?
Aragorn: I don’t know, yet. I can’t think clearly.

Aragorn sits on a rock and sinks in deep thoughts. His left hand is consistently seeking for the Ring and his right is touching the evenstar.

Back to Gollum.
Gollum: My preciousss, where are these thievesss going? We must stopsss them. But how? This tall man is dangeroussss. We must get rid of him soon, yes soon…


(sorry i have no pics. does anyone have a good link?)

[Lhunithiliel]

Camera >>>>> Rolling!
Sound>>>>>> On!

A C T I O N!!!

EPISODE 3
A dark night. Gollum hiding very close to the group is watching carefully. (pic.No:1) Aragorn has gone somewhere and the two hobbits are alone and sleeping.
Suddenly he crawls nearer and it becomes obvious he is going to attack. (pic.No2).
He attacks Frodo. Frodo looks back in fear. (pic.No:3).
There is a brief struggle and Gollum strangles Frodo to death! Sam tries to free his Master but it is too late! Frodo dies!
Sam is desperate!
Gollum escapes.

Sam: Oh, Master! Frodo! Frodo! Oh, you devilish creature! (he cries, turning to the way where Gollum has escaped; then back to Frodo) Frodo!

Aragorn comes running. He sees what has happened and is very sad.(pic:4)
After a moment of tears backed up by a tremendously touching music…

Aragorn: Sam, it’s over now. We can not help Frodo any more! He was a brave fellow, a true friend… Common, Sam. We have to bury him and go on! It is sad that we have lost a precious friend! I know. … (in a quieter voice) How many other of our most beloved friends shall we weep for?!

They are shown standing in deep grief around a small pile of earth (Frodo’s grave). Sam is still weeping. Aragorn puts his hand on Sam’s shoulder and says:

Aragorn: Common, Sam. We now are the ones to carry on with the mission! We have to hurry up! I have found a way for us to get to Mordor!

They go away and climb a hill. There Aragorn stands in full stature and calls.

Aragorn: Guaihir! King of the mighty eagles! Herald of Manwe! Come now!

Then from the air comes down a huge eagle. Then the camera shows it flying and then is shown a picture of the lands the eagle is flying over. (pic.:5)

The action switches over to Legolas and Gimli, Merri and Pippin and a group of Uruk-hai. They are in the middle of a fierce battle (pictures 6,7,8,9,10,11,12).
Legolas and Gimli succeed in freeing the hobbits.

The camera is back again with Aragorn and Sam. They are in Mordor.

Sam (in a quiet voice): Strider, now that you have the ring….. Well…. I was thinking, Master Aragorn, … You are the King! Can’t you defeat the Dark Lord by using this cursed thing?(pic13)

Aragorn: (pic14) Cursed, you named it well, Sam! But do you know how the Ring of Power was once made? Sauron, the deceiver, learned the lore of forging magical rings from the fair Elves. But he made this one by himself. He poured all his malice and will to dominate Middle Earth alone in it! Yet, I sense still some good power of the Elves in this ring, my friend and this, I think, is a good sign. ……Have you heard of the Palantiri, Sam?

Sam looks at him wondering.: The Palantiri, Sir? What are these? Some other of the devilish things that Sauron or even the Morgoth made?

Aragorn: No, Sam. The Palantiri are very special things – the “seeing stones” they call them. (pic15) They were brought to our lands long ago on the ships on which my proud ancestors once escaped the wrath of the Valar…. Then most of them were captured by the enemy, Sam and the enemy used them for their purpose…and the stones became dangerous. For who dared look into them became slave of the Dark! ….But these stones are the rightful heritage of my people! And I looked into a Palantir, Sam! And I did not become enthralled! …….. (with a harder expression on his face –(pic.16)) I can destroy the evil force in the Ring, Sam! The Valar sent me a dream. They told me I was the chosen one - the chosen to free Arda from Sauron – the wretched servant of Morgoth! The chosen one to bring back piece and joy to the peoples of Middle Earth!…… And I will do so! I will follow my destiny!

Silence falls. A close up at the ring which has shrunk even more. The light from the “evenstar” glows and it is seen how the writings on the ring gradually disappear. Then the ring starts glowing with a soft yellow light. The other three elven rings are shown on the hands of their true Masters.
We see Galadriel, Elrond and Cyrdan.(pict17)


Galadriel: He has succeeded! Isildur’s heir defeated the evil in the Ring. Now our forces are free. Let us unite and help Men and their King. The hour of our victory has come! (pict18)

[Gil-Galad]

Great!!!It's really great!!I wish PJ were here to see what you do!!!I'm your greatest fan guys.When can I expect the next episode?!

[gate7ole]

Why don't you participate too?
I'll start a new episode in a while, but everyone should try his/her imagination

[gate7ole]

Camera >>>>> Rolling!
Sound>>>>>> On!

A C T I O N!!!

EPISODE 4

Far away, a great siege is turning bad for the defenders. Minas Tirith is circled by armies of orcs and Haradrim. From Anduin many ships are sailing upwards bringing new battalions of evil southrons. The seven beacons are flamed, to call for the aid of the Rohirrim.

Further away, another battle is in progress. The Hornburg is attacked from all sides by the devilish Uruks. Along the traitors Dunlanders are entering the Dike and threaten to change the balance of the battle in favor of the evil army of Saruman.

Legolas and Gimli on the one hand and Eomer on the other, are defending the Helm’s Deep, but their axe and bow are outnumbered by the evil servants of Isergard. Although they are still holding the pass and Theoden with Merry are still safe.

Back to Minas Tirith, Gandalf running from gate to gate brings encouragement and courage to the tired fighters of Gondor. Denethor is threatening to flame the wounded body of Faramir and accompany him to the death but Pippin is trying to avert it.

In the battleground now outside of Othram, Gandalf is having a hard time to confront the wicked magic of the Witch-king. Wherever he goes a light relieves the hearts of men, but the other places are darkened by the shadow of Mordor.
Gandalf raises his head towards the east and wonders:

Where is Aragorn? Men need his guidance. And what happened to the ring. Alas, I see that we will not last much longer.

Back to Mordor. Aragorn is standing on the peak of Minas Morgul. Corpses of Orcs lay near him. Narsil is flaming with the light of war. Aragorn raises the ring and signs to Gwaihir. Then he puts the ring on his finger and raises both his hands on the air.

Suddenly, to the fields of the two battles a great change is happening. The Dunlanders, the Haradrim and all other evil man, servants of Sauron, are freed from the malice of their hearts. A deep voice summons them all to renounce the Dark Lord and follow the king of Men, the bearer of the Ruling Ring and join the other free men against the foul orcs.

The Nazgul confused by the destruction of the evil inside the ring, go mad and fly up into the air, until they reach the heights and their foul spirit is released from the bonds of Middle Earth.

Orcs and Uruks, dismayed by the betrayal of men are losing the control of the battles.

Far away on Barad-dur, a great lidless eye is bewildered. Sauron turns his thought on Minas Morgul and confronts Aragorn’s vivified spirit.

Aragorn: Your time on Middle-Earth has finished. Go back to the Void and join your master. Evil will not be permitted here anymore.

Sauron: You think you can encounter me? The ring is nothing without evil. You haven’t seen yet my forces. Thousands of armies are waiting for my command to attack your miserable people. You haven’t even imagined my full strength.

Aragorn: Dreams are for the proud and arrogant. All men will be freed from your malice and united we will face every orc or other foul beast you have bred under the shadows. You’re finished here. Leave before your utter destruction.

Then from Barad-dur Sauron releases a great shadow bursting on the air. An answer comes from Minas-Morgul and a great light reaches the darkness on the middle of Gorgoroth. The strife last a few seconds but both parts quit and bend their thoughts on the fields of war.

Back to Minas-Tirith. Men have cast all orcs outside the City Wall. The armies of the servants of Sauron are dismayed and regress to Osgiliath. Few survive to pass Anduin and most are caught between the river and the hatred of men.

To Helm’s Deep, the hosts of Uruks are mostly destroyed, drawn away by the treason of the Dunlanders and the revived valour of the Rohirrim. The few to survive are mislead in the woods of the Ents. None lives to return to Isengard.

Aragorn, back in Minas Morgul, satisfied, steps down the tower and along with Sam, they turn west to find the army of Gondorians and plan his next step.

[Lhunithiliel]

Pictures to EPISODE 4

[Gil-Galad]

gate7ole,do you thing Sauron should talk?I like Tolkien's idea about the evil which cannot be seen or heard.That makes the evil seem bigger and bigger.
As for me,my english is not as good as I want,and at the same time I'm too shy ......

[gate7ole]

That Sauron never talks through the LOTR, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't talk. Remember that during the SA he communicated with the Elves of Eregion and the Numenorians. Of course the discussion I described was not with words (the distance forbade it). It was more a strife of spirits.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by gate7ole
That Sauron never talks through the LOTR, it doesn't mean that he shouldn't talk. Remember that during the SA he communicated with the Elves of Eregion and the Numenorians. Of course the discussion I described was not with words (the distance forbade it). It was more a strife of spirits.
Sauron speaks with the elves and Numenorians,while he has a beautiful body.I'm not sure whether he speaks with them after he loses his beauty.
Anyway,I had in mind only LOTR and I liked the idea of evil which cannot be seen or heard,not in its real face.But honesty the idea of "a strife of spirits" is good too.;)

[Grond]

It is clear throughout the works that Gollum was questioned directly by Sauron though I don't recall whether it ever explains whether it was verbal or merely unspoken thoughts being communicated. Also, there is the communication of the Palantir which appear to be totally non-verbal.

[Lhunithiliel]

CAMERA>>>>> ROLLING!
SOUND>>>>>> ON!

A C T I O N!

EPISODE 5 /the last/

The camera is showing Elrond, Galadriel and some other of the High Elves gathered in the halls of Rivendale.

Elrond: Rejoice, my brethren for now the Evil is forever gone! I can feel it!

Galadriel: (sadly) And with it the Firstborn children of Illuvatar must leave this lands. Our time is over. The age of Men has come!

Glorfindale: And powerful is the new King of Men! None like him have I seen since the days of the full glory of Numenor!

The camera now shows the face of Arwen and in her eyes we see pride and love and great joy.
The camera shows the eyes of Aragorn. Then – an overview. He is standing alone looking at the White City of Minas Tirith.

Aragorn: (thoughts): The White City is free! Gondor is free! …. And now I have to restore the glory of Numenor … here in Middle Earth… Will I be strong enough? Will I be a fair king for my people? … I have to be! I know what my people has suffered! I’ll bring a long peace to it! I’ll make this land the blissful realm of the race of Men! Our time has come!

His thoughts are interrupted by some noise. He turns and sees Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin approaching. They greet him with joy.

Meri: My King, what a victory!
Legolas: Aragorn, why are you sad? Today is the most glorious day for all the peoples who dwell in this harassed land.
Gimli: Yes! We destroyed the Evil, my Lord!
Aragorn: (smiling): Hello, my friends! I am so happy to be with you!…. (sadly): But my heart can not feel joy! Look, we are the only ones left from the Fellowship. We lost dear friends!

The camera shows the sad faces of all and mixes with images of Boromir and Frodo.

Legolas: They died for a good cause, Aragorn. They will live forever in the songs and tales of Men and Elves. Come, now! Gandalf sent us to look for you. He said he had to speak to you.

The field in front of the White City. There are thousands of people, tents ordered in lines and with different banners, horses… Joy is everywhere. The camera shows various brief episodes of people greeting each other, laughing, dancing; others – grieving over some of their friends who were killed in the battle… A large white tent is seen and the banner of Gondor is on the top. The group of Aragorn approaches it and as they pass through the crowd, all people stand aside and bow in respect to Aragorn.

Different people: My King!… My Lord!… The King has returned!… Long live the King of Gondor!

Gandalf comes out of the white tent to meet them.

Gandalf: Aragorn, quick, come in! We have to speak!
Aragorn: (with a worried face): More bad news?
Gandalf: Oh, NO! No, my friend! But come in, come in!

Aragorn and Gandalf sitting in one part of the tent. Aragorn is reading a letter. He finishes reading it, lifts his eyes and they are filled with joy. Yet he does not smile.

Aragorn: Do Elros and Elrond know their kins are coming? They will be glad to embrace their father and their most beloved sister!

Gandalf: Yes, I sent Sam, the hobbit, to find them and tell them the news. I’m expecting them any minute now…… (a smile appears in his eyes) And you, Aragorn? Aren’t YOU glad?

Aragorn: Gandalf, you know what I desired most all these years. I wanted to see peace and joy in my fair kingdom – now it has come. But my heart longed for the Evenstar…. I don’t know what to think! In the letter Elrond does not say anything about that….. I love her dearly,
Gandalf! I know she loves me, and her brothers stand for this union…. But her father is right! I cannot ask from an immortal to give up the most precious gift of their race … for the love of a mortal man….

Gandalf: Aragorn, Arwen Evenstar, the most beloved lady among the Eldar, has long ago made her choice….. And you know it. But don’t be troubled, my friend! Not any more! Your union with her is permitted by powers higher than Arwen’s father, Elrond the half-elf. This union is a match made by Manwe Sulimo and his beloved Varda! Know, Ellesar, that because of your great deeds, Manwe has received this permission from Illuvatar himself! Long, joyful and prosperous will be your marriage to Arwen and you will have wonderful heirs. And when the time comes, a great white ship will wait for you both in the Grey Havens and it will take you to the Blessed lands and there you will live forever! This is the will of Illuvatar!

Aragorn: (after a long pause): Tell me, Gandalf, did you already know this when you met me in Fangorn?

Gandalf smiles.

Aragorn: What you have said, Master, makes me happier even than the fact that I now have returned my kingdom! I could give up all this – the crown and the kingship over Gondor…. Now that Faramir is safe I could make him the King….and go with Arwen…. No! I could have never done this! I could have never betrayed my people! I’d rather have a grieving heart than a shamed memory!…. But now….! I can have it all – my kingdom and my fair beloved Queen!

Gandalf: You have paid a high price for this, Aragorn! You deserve it!….. Now, enough of talking! Let our bodies and souls rest. I doubt that any Orc or other creature from Mordor will dare come close to our camp tonight! Eomer and Imrahil have sent their men out on guard. … Rest now, Aragorn. Tomorrow is a great day!

The next day. Thousands of people are gathered in the field in front of the White City. The city itself is full of joyful people, music and laughing is everywhere. In the King’s palace everything is ready for the return of the King.
From a beautiful house next to the palace come out Faramir and Eowyn. They are dressed in rich garments. They are followed by a long line of other dignitaries of Minas Tirith . The group passes by the main streets of the city and the people greet them. One man is carrying a small decorated chest, put on a red cloth. He treats it with great care and respect. As they pass the people start whispering:
….. Look! The Crown of the King! The Crown of Gondor! Look!
The procession reaches the front gates of Minas Tirith that have been mostly rebuild and they go out and hold their step.
In front of them there is a large group of knights on beautiful white and gray horses. Aragorn jumps down from his horse and approaches Faramir and the other men.
Under a smashing music he receives the crown and all over the city and the field the joyful cry of the people fills the air.
A bit later – in the Palace. Aragorn is sitting on the throne. Next to him are Faramir and Eowyn and the rest of Aragorn’s friends. Then Merry rushes in.He is shortly followed by Gandalf and several Elves, led by Glorfindale.

Glorfindale: Greetings, King of Gondor! Friends have come to your White City. They have brought to you a precious gift. Will you receive them now?

Aragorn quickly stands up and stepping down from the throne he goes and embraces Glorfindale. The group of Elves then part in two and there stand Elrond and Arwen. Behind Galadriel and Celegorn, Elros and Elrond, Eomer and many others.

Elrond: Aragorn, King of Gondor, I have brought to you thy Queen whom you desired for long years. My heart is bleeding for I am losing my beloved daughter, but I now know that a day will come and we shall all be together again in lands and times much better than now. Here is your bride.

Arwen steps forward, Aragorn takes her hand and their faces are lit with love and happiness. They kiss and he takes her to sit on the throne of Gondor aside him.

The joy and the richness of the feast are outstanding. There is not one sad or worried face. Music.
The camera shows Arwen and Aragorn close to each other and above them is seen the symbol of Gondor – the white tree and the seven stars… Mix with stars in the sky……

THE END

[gate7ole]

Well done Lhun, though I would give a very different ending to the story. But, being impatient to write our script, we didn't give time to Nenya to express her ideas about her own subject.:(
I hope she forgives us.
The next subject will come from Gil-Galad as promised.

[Lhunithiliel]

First, I'd like to appologize for not being able to provide a picture sequence to Episode 5. My Corel Draw failed.:(
Second, actually Episode 5 was originally longer....MUCH longer.... SO long that I had to edit it and this was the final version.:D

Nenya, really, I am too sorry we did not give you a turn. And thinking that it was YOUR topic! .... Will you PLEASE forgive us?

Today starts the new topic - as we have promissed to Gil-Galad.
the topic is :

WHAT IF TURGON HAD LISTENED TO ULMO'S ADVICE

The first to post can also suggest the form in which we should discuss this new topic.... but don't you think we could make it into a debate?

[Lhunithiliel]

I noticed that I shamefully misused names for Elrond' sons in my Episode 5!:eek: :o I sometimes almost give up as far as names are concerned! There are hundreds of them!
... But, yet, wasn't the story beautiful? ;)

I DON'T SEE A N Y posts on the new topic????:confused:

[gate7ole]

To be honest I can't think of another way of unfolding the story of the new topic. A debate is not -I think- appropriate, since there is nothing to debate, everyone can give his/her own ideas. Maybe a Tale of Years would be more appropriate here. Anyone else has a better idea?

[gate7ole]

OK, since there was not any other thought, I give the first part of the Tale of Years (concerning especially the events in Gondolin).

496
Tuor is instructed by Ulmo to go to Gondolin and bring his counsel to Turgon. Guided by Voronwe, he reaches the gate Gondolin and bearing the tokens of Ulmo, gains admittance to Gondolin. There he delivers the message of Ulmo to the king Turgon. Maeglin is from the beginning against abandoning Gondolin. Idril is in favor of Tuor’s biding. Turgon delays his decision and accepts Tuor in his house causing the secret envy of Maeglin.
498
Slaying of Glaurung, and deaths of Túrin Turambar and Nienor Níniel in Brethil.
499
Release of Hurin from Angbad
500
Birth of Elwing
502
Deaths of Beren and Luthien
503
Tuor, who has gained much respect, weds Idril in Gondolin. Maeglin’s hatred for Tuor is growing. Later in this year, Earendil the Mariner is born. Turon is pondering Ulmo’s message. He privately asks the counsel of Tuor who suggests that a council should be appointed as soon as possible
504
February:
Turgon after the prompts of Idril, finally holds a council early in the year. There the leaders of the eleven houses of Gondolin assemble in the King’s Square: Duilin, Penlod, Ecthelion, Rog, Egalmoth, Galdor, Glorfindel, Salgant, Maeglin and Tuor last but not least. Maeglin stands alone against the message of Ulmo and would have persuaded Turgon but for the wise words of Glorfindel. The decision is made. Gondolin will be abandoned before the end of the year.
March:
The plan of the abandonment of the city is made. Tuor advices that they should not abandon the city by the hidden gate, fearing that the place would be spied by the servants of Morgoth. Turgon relies on the safety of the hidden gates. Tuor with Idril decide to create an alternative secret passway in Cirith Thoronath, fearing for treason by Maeglin.
September:
The preparations are almost finished. Turgon still entrusting Maeglin assigns to him the inspection of the fields outside of Gondolin. Maeglin leaves the city with his trusted company to spy the nearby places and decide the appropriate time for the evacuation of the city.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hello peoples! :) I'm back - it is I who must apologize, not either of you. I had more than enough opportunity to post on my own topic but did not as the style we were using did not interest me. Sadly, I used this as an excuse not to post. I must say that the two of you came out with quite an interesting version! I am going to give my best shot at this new form of the game... I'll do my best.

October: Maeglin spies the outward planes with apparent success. In Gondolin preparations are made for the evacuation of the city.

November: Maeglin is assailed by a small orc host and is taken as a hostage into Angband. He is torchured and, because of his bitterness towards Tuor, betrays Gondolin and promises to help Morgoth in an assault against the hidden kingdom. Maeglin tells Morgoth that Gondolin is soon to be evacuated, for he has been promised Idril should he remain faithful to the Dark Lord. In Gondolin, the preparations are finished, and the elven folk await the return of Maeglin and his report to begin their journey.

December: Maeglin returns to Gondolin bringing a false report of clear plains beyond the mountains. The host of Gondolin begins the evacuation of the city, using the hidden gates.

[Gil-Galad]

OK.Nobody writes what would have happened so I'm going to write some short ideas.There will be only possible facts,cause obviously I'm not like Lhun and I cannot write such beautiful stories as hers.So here is what happens in my view:
Turgon realizes his people must leave Gondolin.He thrusts Tuor and gives him the leadership of the elves who leave Gondolin.But Turgon does not go with them.He loves his city too much and with some other elves he decides to stay there.There is also another reason for Turgon's staying in Gondolin.The king supposes Morgoth is informed for the evacuation,he wants Melkor to pay attention at him,not at his people.Turgon thinks this will give enough time to the others to reach the isle of Balar.
Morgoth attacks Gondolin because he desires so much for Turgon's death that forgets about the evacuated elves.Turgon fights with his people(Glorfindel stays with him) but they cannot oppose and soon all die.Only Glorfindel escapes.
At the same time the others,leaded by Tuor reach Cirdan and his people and join them.
This gives chance to elves and people to survive.Soon the son's of Feanor are defeated too,s othey join Cirdan's people.Elves from Doriath also reach Cirdan's lands.That scares Morgoth because elves forget for sometime all oaths and hate between them.People help them too.Feanor's son don't forget their oath but they decide that now all elves must oppose Morgoth and the oath can be only a weapon of
Morgoth.So elves,supported by people,become again enough powerful to oppose Melkor and .........
WOW who would continue?!:cool: ;)

[gate7ole]

Hey Gil-Galad you're over-excited! You couldn't wait for the unfolding of the story through the Tale of Years! I understand your enthusiasm, since this What-If was yours.
I wouldn't continue just now the story because every thought coming in mind now is pessimistic. And I would spoil it. Anyone else more optimistic?

[Lhunithiliel]

What G-G did was unfolding the story as if the "FF"-button on the vide-player was pushed ;) :D
I felt almost dizzy while the pictures of the battle passed so quickly before my eyes!
Here how I see the story on:
****************************
But there is another battle coming - a more glorious one! Another Alliance is formed - an Alliance of Men and Elves! Stronger and wiser are they now! Melkor has caused so much sorrow and death; he has destroyed almost all the best leaders of both races...
Sorrow.... anger.... rage.... will for revenge.... will to restore the beauty of ME and will to bring back peace to those tortured lands..... peace for the sorrowed, angered, raging souls of both, humans and elves.

A Great Council is summoned.

An Elf: "Morgoth will be defeated only if we stay united!"
A Man: "You can count on us!"
Another Elf: "Melkor is still strong! He has the Balrogs and the dragons and all those monsters with him"
Another Elf: "Countless years have passed away since these lands were rescued from the same manace. It is in our lore that once, in the beginning of the days, when the mighty Valar fought Melkor and his creatures, there was a Vala whom all Melor's servants feared - Orome we call him. And it is also said in our tales that Orome never left the Children of Illuvata alone and unwatched. Let us turn for help! Let's call for Orome. He will destroy the beasts. The uruks will be our matter!"
A Man: "A Vala! What would your Gods care for our sorrows?!"
An Elf: "You don't know what you're speaking, Atani!"
Another Elf: "Friends! Only Morgoth will be pleased to see us here, looking for our last hope and ... arguing! Atani, do not question the might of a Vala! My people knows that the Valar care for us! But we have to be strong ourselves! This is OUR war! We hae to prove to Eru, our creator, that we - his Children, were not made in vain!.... Let's speak now about matters that cannot wait."
****************
Your turn!
Pick up any form of your story.

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, where are you?
The topic is "choking"!
I, personally am not very good at martial battles matters, so the story needs man's vision!
BTW, as I know that Gondolin is the favourite topic of our Maedhros, why don't you, boys, invite him to participate in the present "What if?-topic?
However, the most important thing is : Let the story go on! and this won't happen without your active participation! ;)

[gate7ole]

I had some hard time the last few days with the university, bu