The Gallery of Characters-work book-Archive

[FoolOfATook]

Great idea Gil-Galad. I don't think anyone will be surprised that I select Pippin Took to start off with. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
Great idea Gil-Galad. I don't think anyone will be surprised that I select Pippin Took to start off with. ;)
.......And Pippin Took goes to FOAT!!!!!!!!!!

[Lhunithiliel]

G-G, this is a great idea!!!!!!!!!
Boy! I LOVE it!

First - for the beginning I take ALDARION!.. especially after you have allready taken Feanor! ;) :D So...Aldarion - for Lhun.

Then I'll DEFINITELY pick up some more!

Second - some matters of organization, if I may...

In fact - questions:
1/ Are all "biografies" to be posted in the main thread?

2/ If so,where will the comments and the possible discussions take place. I mean... some people will perhaps not agree with the opinion of the "author" of he review concerning a character... so a discussion will occur.... but where?

3/ Time-terms? Say... 10 days between the characters.

4/ Order? Will the characters be presented by the order in that list or randomely?

For now - these are the questions.
A! You know me! I want a strict organization in everything and ...yet hate rues and order! ;) :D :D

But sometimes to have things ordered is good!

Hey.... and WHO HAS MADE THE THREAD STICKY? ;) :) :D

Oh! And one more thing... Why don't you make an announcement in the Members Announcement - with a suitable link provided, so that more people could participate?
Just an idea...:rolleyes:

[FoolOfATook]

While I don't have a problem with setting a timeframe for the character profiles in theory, it's worth noting that there is no possible way that mine will be posted in 10 days- I quite simply don't have the time. I will post it as soon as possible, however. :)

[Beleg]

That's a nice idea!
But can you add Finduilas there too! :) She is such a cool, cool elf! And a hero in her own regard and Niniel too.
If you can add Finduilas then I'll take Beleg, Turin and Finduilas!

[Gil-Galad]

Beleg,you take three character you want!
Lhun,10 days is ok.
I think any discussio about the characters should happan here.The main thread will be only for Biography,pix,etc.
Yes in alphabetical order is ok.

[Finduilas]

:(
Well, since Finduilas is already taken I'd like to have Niniel.
Is that possible?

[Gil-Galad]

Of course it is possible,Fin!
I have also to annouce that Melian asked me to let her do Melian's character,so Melian goes to Melian :D :D :D :D !

I want to suggest some changes in the rules of the Gallery.

First I think that we should wait for about two weeks.Thus there will be enough assigned members and we'll be able to start the Gallery.And with the time the other characters will be taken too by other members.
Tomorrow I'll suggest dates for the first characters.
What is more,I believe 10 days is too much time.There are about 70 characters and if the period is 10 days that will continue 2years!So what would you say about 7 days?!If we see that 7 days is too much we'll make them 10,is that ok?
:)
And please tell all members you know about the Gallery.I'm sure there are many people who are not Tolkienologists but would like to write about their favourite or least favourite characters!!!!

[FoolOfATook]

Since this was Gil-Galad's idea, I think that we should accept his recommendations for it- seven days is fine by me, but as I said, with finals right now, seven days might be unrealistic for my very first one.

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL...
Don't worry, FoT!
Aldarion is the first on the list ! ;) :D

So, when am I to post my Aldarion - review?

[Beleg]

Wait a second! If we are to go by Alphabetical order in posting our character's bio, then it would take a mighty long time for the later alphabets to appear and people like Turin and Thingol will apear much later. Can someone please clarify the point? when'll we be posting our character bio's?

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Wait a second! If we are to go by Alphabetical order in posting our character's bio, then it would take a mighty long time for the later alphabets to appear and people like Turin and Thingol will apear much later. Can someone please clarify the point? when'll we be posting our character bio's?

I was told by GG that the biographs are going to be posted alphabetically and I don't think there's any problem with that. What is more, if we don't do it alphabetically some characters will have to appear much later again.

[Gil-Galad]

Well,I wasn't clear enough ,so I want to apologize for that.
As I said it would be better if the biographies are not posted in alphabetical order,because of the long time some have to wait to post their materials.So we start
11th May
with the first biography of Aldarion,assigned by Lhun.For more details see The Gallery.Every new one,who wants to participate,choosing a character will receive a date for posting his materials.So the list of the dates and assignment will be filling in every moment.

[Ithrynluin]

Nice idea, GG. I don't have the time to prepare a thorough character study right now, but I would like to "book" Galadriel for myself.:)

[Eöl]

I will take Beren and Tuor, if that's ok. I may add more later. Good luck with the first one Lhun!:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eöl
I will take Beren and Tuor, if that's ok. I may add more later. Good luck with the first one Lhun!:)
Thanks Eol! :D

I just wouldn't hide my "love" for one of my favourite characters! ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Ithrynluin,Eol you take the characters you want.Check The Gallery of Characters to see when are the dates of your characters.:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

If Aragorn is available, I would like to take him (he's my favorite from the book from the beginning!). :)

[Gil-Galad]

Mrs,Maggott,of course you are most welcome to take Aragorn!
Check The Gallery of Characters to see the date of your favourite Tolkien's character.:) ;)

[LadyDernhelm]

I'm not IN the Guild of Tolkienology, but you said this was open to everyone right?

If so, could I grab Éowyn?

[FoolOfATook]

Whether or not you can profile Eowyn is up to Gil-Galad, but I can tell you that this project is open to non-members. Of course, you could easily change your non-member status, if you're interested... ;)

[Nóm]

Can I have Finrod Felagund? I'd like to put together a paper of the evolution of his character through the history of the writings. Then of course I'd tell about his great deeds and his role in major events and whatnot. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Good idea, Nom! :D
G-G willappoint a date for you.

Welcome to the project! :D

[Gil-Galad]

Eowyn goessssssssssss to LadyDernhelm!
And one of my favourite elves,Finrod Felagund goesssssssss to Nym!
I hope you'll enjoy making biography of your characters!:)

[Bethelarien]

I would like to do one on Arwen, if that's permissable.

What all are we to include in this biography?

[Kementari]

Great idea! Can i have Sam Gamgee? hes the best character ever

[Gil-Galad]

Of course you can have them!!!!!
YOU ARE MOST WELCOME!
Bethelarien takes Arwen,and Sam Gamgee goes to Kementari.Check The Gallery of Characters to see the dates of your characters!
:)

[Idril]

Idril isn't on the list:( Can she be added and can I do her? It may stop some of the he/him references I get;).

[spirit]

Can i have...ummm....Pippen please!

[Gil-Galad]

Of course,your favourite character will be put in the list,Idril!
Goodl luck!
Check the Gallery to see the dates of your character!:)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by spirit
Can i have...ummm....Pippen please!
I'm sorry to tell you that,but Pippin have been reserved by FOAT!But you can chose other characters UP to 5!!

[Lhunithiliel]

G-G, I am ready with my work on Aldarion's profile and I'll post it tomorrow.

But I was thinking :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
What if we open each profile in a separate thread?
Like " Gallery of Characters - Tar-Aldarion"
and there, after the initial post people can add information and/or post comments, opinions etc...

Well?????

[Beleg]

But I was thinking
What if we open each profile in a separate thread?
Like " Gallery of Characters - Tar-Aldarion"
and there, after the initial post people can add information and/or post comments, opinions etc...

I agree mostly with the idea, only that it might prove to be a hinderance after a substancial amount of characters have been done. It might result in too many similar threads.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well....I don't think so...
I mean, each thread will bear the original name "The Gallery of Characters" and then the name of the character itself.
Ex: "The Gallery of Characters: Tar-Aldarion"

I guess in this way the profiles will become "open" to all TTF-ers and we could get a lot more participation and concern.

[Beleg]

In that case, I totally agree. :cool:

[Gil-Galad]

well........If we post it in a different thread,it would be forgotten after there is nothing to write about it.But if it is posted in the "Gallery"it will stay there and when someone needs info about a character he will have only to enter the thread,and to read the post he wants.If he has to search for special threads I think it will be more difficult in all that mess of the Guild.
I hope you understand what I have in mind.
And the work-book can be for comments.Just like The hall of seminars is a place for commenting The Hall of Lectures.

[Beleg]

But we do not need to "sticky" every character's personal thread. In the gallery which i see is stickeyed we can post the link of each character's thread so that everyone can have acesss to it. I am with this idea because it would help in discussing various posts.

[Lhunithiliel]

Since G-G is in cahrge with this project, I'll follow his instructions.

Find Tar-Aldarion's profile in the "The Gallery of Characters" :)

[Beleg]

First of all i want to congragulate you Lhun for presenting Aldarion's character in such a great way. A great presentation, both in material and conception.

A point, i thought that could be discussed.

On the third day after he has returned to Armenelos, Aldarion meets his father and bitterly disappointed with the breaking of his marriage to Erendis, he announces that he will leave Numenor taking with him only his rightful heir – his daughter Ancalime.

As far as I can remember, (I don't have the text with me, right now so i can be wrong also) Aldarion didn't actually meant to take Ancalime away with him on his journeys. he didn't want her to be brought up in Amarie and i think he had wanted to bring her up in the Queen's house at Armenelos.

Oh and sorry G-G, if i offended you in anyway. :(

[Lhunithiliel]

Thnk you, Beleg! It was a pleasure preparing the profile :)

Now, you are right about the fact that you have pointed out.
I now see that the way I put it, it seems that as if Aldarion wanted to take Ancalime to M-e, which of course he wished to do, if only the girl were a bit older.
Here is the quote, that explains it:
Of my inheritance I demand only this: the ship Hirilondë and as many men as it will hold. My daughter I would take also, were she older; but I will commend her to my mother.

And don't worry!
G-G, I am sure, is not mad at you! :D

[Gil-Galad]

Offended?!By Beleg!OMG,don't worry,everything is ok.I just did not explain in the best way what I have in mind.:(

[Lhunithiliel]

To continue the little "discussion" on how to present the profiles, I'd say that after G-G has PM-ed me with some explanations in Bulgarian language, so, I guess, now I shall have to do my usual job as a translator ;) :p :D and post in brief why he prefers it to be all in one thread.

OK, G-G! You owe me one!!!! :p

The point is that this should serve as some sort of a "Guide-book".
One needs to know about a LOTR-character? Just go to the "Gallery" and find it there! :)

I agree...There is a good point in this...Only, G-G has to renwe the list constantly! There are so many characters Tolkien has created!

Besides, some link-stuff will be omitted too. There are people who'd like to read all they need in one place.

So, basically, this is it.

Comments? ;)

[Beleg]

Comments?

Got it! Aye, aye captain!

Offended?!By Beleg!OMG,don't worry,everything is ok.

Thanks!

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,thank you for your help.As some of you probably know these days I'm totally committed to the preparation of a big trance fetival with some world famous djs and groups.So as you can guess I even do not have time to sleep.

Lhun,your biography is great!I have some questions,but now I would like to correct only that Tar-Aldarion dies not in 1075(that is the year when Tar-Ancalime becomes the first ruling queen of Numenor),but in 1098.

Ok

[Eöl]

I agree...There is a good point in this...Only, G-G has to renwe the list constantly! There are so many characters Tolkien has created!

That's true, but we haven't even gotten volunteers to do half of the list that Gil-Galad created...We should probably finish those characters that are left before we add new ones.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eöl
That's true, but we haven't even gotten volunteers to do half of the list that Gil-Galad created...We should probably finish those characters that are left before we add new ones.
The bigger choice the better.Just write which characters do you want to include.
Speaking that we haven't gotten volunteer to do half of the list I would say we need some more advertising.MORE MEMBERS OF THE FORUM should know the Gallery.I made an announcement in Members announcements,but that probably is not enough.:(


Lhun,I have some questions concerning Tar-Aldarion's biography and life.
I wonder what is your personal attitude towards him.Yes,he may be right leaving his wife,but is he right to leave Numenor when he wants to go on journey while he is a king?He takes the sceptre and all power is in his hands,so he probably should rule his country,not enjoying his love with the sea and shipping.Is he a good king?Do you think Numenorean home affairs are influenced negatively by his not staying in Numenor during his reign?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Lhun,I have some questions concerning Tar-Aldarion's biography and life.
I wonder what is your personal attitude towards him.Yes,he may be right leaving his wife,but is he right to leave Numenor when he wants to go on journey while he is a king?He takes the sceptre and all power is in his hands,so he probably should rule his country,not enjoying his love with the sea and shipping.Is he a good king?Do you think Numenorean home affairs are influenced negatively by his not staying in Numenor during his reign?
Better late than never! ;) :D

See, G-G, I had the pleasure of holding a wonderful debate with Beleg on this matter. I am sure that if you read it you'll find my opinion and attitude expressed there.
In brief, however I am extremely fascinated and attracted to such complex characters as Aldarion, Melkor, Feanor, Turin, Boromir, the Nazgul etc... I find them more interesting, multi-leveled and that's why I am always inclined to somehow "defend" them.

As for Aldarion- the King of Numenor... Well, we in fact do not have much details as to comment on this, because the most detailed information comes from the tale "Aldarion and Erendis" which unfortunately ends at the point when he actually becomes a King and only bits and pieces are given further on, mainly as some comments by Christopher Tolkien.
One is for sure - Aldarion unfortunately somehow could not "fit" into his time - his advanced and progressive ideas and ambitious plans could not be obviously understood by his society and that is why I say that he was born in the wrong time of Arda's history.

[Eledhwen]

I would like to write a study on the character of Bilbo Baggins.

Lhunithiliel's essay was very interesting for me, as I decided to re-read the story of Aldarion and Erendis last week and have been thinking about it a lot, especially their relationship. I came to the conclusion that Erendis knew full well that Aldarion was addicted to Seafaring and, just as she would have 'died' living at sea, he would do likewise if confined to shore. Her bitterness and unwilligness to 'get a life' when he was away was within her own power to cure, but she chose otherwise, to the detriment of her daughter's marriage also, I believe.

I also wondered at the ultimate consequence of the growth of Aldarion's navy and his excursions to Middle Earth - the capture of Sauron, the poisoning of the minds of the Numenoreans and the downfall of Numenor. And yet, Aldarion felt constrained in all this. What part did the Valar have in the shaping of his thoughts and actions, I wonder?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
I would like to write a study on the character of Bilbo Baggins.
Well, you are most welcome! :)

I came to the conclusion that Erendis knew full well that Aldarion was addicted to Seafaring and, just as she would have 'died' living at sea, he would do likewise if confined to shore. Her bitterness and unwilligness to 'get a life' when he was away was within her own power to cure, but she chose otherwise, to the detriment of her daughter's marriage also, I believe.
See, Beleg?! ;) :D There is another woman who in a way accuses Erendis for the tragical relationship these both had. (El, this was related to the debate we recently had with Bele-strongbow; maybe you have read it?)

What part did the Valar have in the shaping of his thoughts and actions, I wonder?
This is a strange question!:rolleyes: :confused: I have never thought the Valar might have had any role in Aldarion's life... But now that you have put it forward this way... :rolleyes: Mmmm daaa.... interesting thought....!

[Beleg]

See, Beleg?! There is another woman who in a way accuses Erendis for the tragical relationship these both had. (El, this was related to the debate we recently had with Bele-strongbow; maybe you have read it?)
*Cough* I have not heard of many Woman who are fond of Using Cigars??

Lol, Lhun you are not the first one to call Eedhwen a Woman:p I am not sure what people see in him!
he is such a nice, respectble male who write brilliant couplets 'bout the Virtues of Oedipus:p :cool:

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL
I hate to do this (correct you, I mean), my friend, but Eledwhen IS A WOMAN! :) :D

........ or .......am I wrong?:eek: :o

Common! I cannot be!:eek:

[Beleg]

LOL
I hate to do this (correct you, I mean), my friend, but Eledwhen IS A WOMAN!

........ or .......am I wrong?

Common! I cannot be!

Hehe! Eledhwen is a man, I am sure sooner or later he would himself varify this claim ;)
Lol.

[Eledhwen]

Yes, I'm a woman!

I just looked at my profile, and I suppose it doesn't give any real clues, though my Forum name, "Eledhwen" was an additional name given to Morwen and means "Elfsheen".:D

Maybe I'll change my avatar to a photo for a while.

[Beleg]

*Faints*

No Offence Eledhwen, but you well sound like a man so much....

[Eledhwen]

:D No offence taken! I put it down to being brought up in a Lancashire Fusiliers Sergeants Mess. I've never been very 'girlie', but I have had five kids!

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Better late than never! ;) :D

I find them more interesting, multi-leveled and that's why I am always inclined to somehow "defend" them.


One is for sure - Aldarion unfortunately somehow could not "fit" into his time - his advanced and progressive ideas and ambitious plans could not be obviously understood by his society and that is why I say that he was born in the wrong time of Arda's history.
Lhun I agree with these words,cause my attitude towards characters like Aldarion,Feanor etc. .. are almost the same.

Eledwhen you take Bilbo Baggins biography!!!!!Check the Gallery to see the date of you character.!:)

And Fin,I see you are late with Niniel's biography.I know you made a great party at your home,and I really enjoyed it,especially the hours spent with Mari,but I do think you should hurry ,cause Beleg is coming.

[Eledhwen]

Thanks Gil-Galad. I've been assigned Bilbo, but no date. I presume it will not be before September 14th.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Thanks Gil-Galad. I've been assigned Bilbo, but no date. I presume it will not be before September 14th.
Yes,your date is 14th SEPTEMBER ,Good Luck!

[Finduilas]

Now I posted the first part of my biography-the brief history. However, there is some more work to be done with the rest of it so I'll post it tomorrow.
Thank you.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Now I posted the first part of my biography-the brief history. However, there is some more work to be done with the rest of it so I'll post it tomorrow.
Thank you.
I like yor style of narrating Niniel's biography.But what is your personal attitude towards her?

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I like yor style of narrating Niniel's biography.But what is your personal attitude towards her?

Yes, just wait a second and you'll get it all!:)
I'll post some more coments, my personal attitude and the chronology.

[Beleg]

A well thought out and well-composed narrative, Indeed.:):)

Just one or two issues,

Posted by Finduilas
Therefore, escorted by Mablung and a few elves from Doriath, she went to Nargothrond, not knowing Nienor accompanied them.

UT, Narn
Then the others turned, and saw that the sun shone upon a head of gold: for it was Nienor, and her hood was blown back by the wind. Thus it was revealed that she had followed the company, and joined them in the dark before they crossed the river.

So Morwen knew that Niniel indeed followed them.

I specially like the last part and particularly this sentence,


Posted by Finduilas
That's where Turambar and the men of Brethil found her. But she could not remember her name, so Turambar named her Níniel, Tear-Maiden.

[Beleg]

However, life and Gods are not as evil with her as they seem to be. They gave her signs and premonitions which she only had to unriddle:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In that time the woodmen were not troubled by the Orcs, and Turambar went not to war, and there was peace in Brethil. His heart turned to Níniel, and he asked her in marriage; but for that time she delayed in spite of her love. For Brandir foreboded he knew not what, and sought to restrain her, rather for her sake than his own of rivalry with Turambar; and he revealed to her that Turambar was Túrin son of Húrin, and thought she knew not the name a shadow fell upon her mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And as she did not guess their message and married the unfortunate brother of hers, she had to suffer the consequences of her actions:


But how could she unriddle them, when she was under the spell of Glaurung, and knew not a valid fact about her past. And remember the Wilds at that time period of First Age were in a state of anarachy, and rumors of every type were flying everywhere thick and fast, life-histories of the important characters in the Drama weren't had been collected and weren't completely known. Just the name of Turin wouldn't have ended the spell on her. And not a lot of information was avalable to her on whose base she could analyze the whole episode and step by step reach a conclusion. She had no way of knowing that she was Ninieor unless she went to Doriath and even the Men of Brethil entered there not, what to say about Woman of Brethil.

As for suffering the concequences, I belive it was a hideous aspect of Morgoth's curse. Without her fault she was compelled to make one of the biggest mistakes of her life....
Morgoth no wonder would have been sitting in his high tower and watching the sad drama unfold with cruel amusement.

No Wonder Morgoth's treatment of Hurin's Kin is described as one of his worst sin's ever....

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
But how could she unriddle them, when she was under the spell of Glaurung, and knew not a valid fact about her past. And remember the Wilds at that time period of First Age were in a state of anarachy, and rumors of every type were flying everywhere thick and fast, life-histories of the important characters in the Drama weren't had been collected and weren't completely known. Just the name of Turin wouldn't have ended the spell on her. And not a lot of information was avalable to her on whose base she could analyze the whole episode and step by step reach a conclusion. She had no way of knowing that she was Ninieor unless she went to Doriath and even the Men of Brethil entered there not, what to say about Woman of Brethil.

As for suffering the concequences, I belive it was a hideous aspect of Morgoth's curse. Without her fault she was compelled to make one of the biggest mistakes of her life....
Morgoth no wonder would have been sitting in his high tower and watching the sad drama unfold with cruel amusement.

No Wonder Morgoth's treatment of Hurin's Kin is described as one of his worst sin's ever....


Yes, indeed she could have unriddled them despite the spell of Glaurung. Her heart went heavier, she felt uncomfortable. Even the fact that a shadow fell on her should have told her something:
and he revealed to her that Turambar was Túrin son of Húrin, and thought she knew not the name a shadow fell upon her mind.
His name wouldn't have ended the spell but her consious thinking would have prevented 'the worst sin's ever'. She didn't need to know who she was she only had to understand that there was smething wrong with her relationship with Turin. After all, she felt so uneasy when she heard his name and when he initially made a proposal.
And yet she could have preventd this 'drama'. By thinking over and over her decisions she would have reached the right decision. Moreover, she could have listened to her heart.

[Eledhwen]

finduilas: She didn't need to know who she was she only had to understand that there was smething wrong with her relationship with Turin. After all, she felt so uneasy when she heard his name and when he initially made a proposal.
And yet she could have preventd this 'drama'. By thinking over and over her decisions she would have reached the right decision. Moreover, she could have listened to her heart.This is what I would call a check on Niniel's spirit. It was God's answer to all forms of deception and still is, if listened to.

I would just like to say, 'well done, Finduilas!' and I look forward to the next piece of your work.

[Beleg]

By thinking over and over her decisions she would have reached the right decision. Moreover, she could have listened to her heart.
Listen to her heart, Hmm, well....

Narn, UT

But to Turambar her heart was given, and only at his coining would she smile, and only when he spoke gaily would she laugh.

Her heart was already taken with Turambar, she allready loved him, and since she knew she loved him it would only be logical of her think that this is the man I would like to and am going to marry.

Her heart went heavier, she felt uncomfortable. Even the fact that a shadow fell on her should have told her something:

And what could it have told her? She couldn't have read her doom, could she? She loved Turin, and wanted to marry her, but upon hearing the words of Brandir Lamefoot, she delayed their wedding for she had interpreted the meaning of shadow as far as she could have. But when Turin insisted that he would go to war or marry Niniel, then she married him, for indeed she loved him and couldn't have bear that any harm may come to Turin.
It is simple, logical common sense that a person wants to marry someone whom he loves and she loved Turin, the mere arrival of a fear wouldn't have lessened her love for him. She went by her heart and married Turin, and remember she was really happy with it also. All this circumstances proved "The shadow" as a momentary doubt to her. His name wouldn't have ended the spell but her consious thinking would have prevented 'the worst sin's ever'.
What concious thinking? She wasn't concious of her past, knew no solid facts from her past, then how could have she taken another step? She had no inkling what her past was...to her the life in Brethil was a new life and Turamabar someone who she had never met/known before. The presence of Turin made her glad, made her happy then why should she forfiet her happiness, her love just because of the presence of a mere fear/doubt?
And yet she could have preventd this 'drama'.

How? How had she anyway of remembering her past life? She hadn't even seen Turin, so no picture of him could be present on even her subconcious. By thinking over and over her decisions she would have reached the right decision.

She didn't feel any shadow or fear when Turin proposed to her a second time, infact she was "glad". Surely, in the interim she would have viewed the matter number of times in her mind...she only felt gladness...so naturally she went on and agreed...

But as you said she should have listened to her heart....and indeed she did the same thing...she listened to her heart and married Turin.

[Finduilas]

Her heart was already taken with Turambar, she allready loved him, and since she knew she loved him it would only be logical of her think that this is the man I would like to and am going to marry.

Yes her heart was given to him because she didn't know he was her brother and because she let her heart fall in love.
Let's look closer, it was impossible for her of course to know anything about her past including her relationship with a 'complete stranger'.That's why it is an acceptable excuse for part of her decisions.
However, even under the power of 'amnesia' she was still a human being. She had senses, feelings, intuitian and the power of taking logical decisions based on her own intuitian. See, it is mentioned a couple of times that she felt uneasy and uncomfortable at first when he proposed her and when she heard his name.
and he revealed to her that Turambar was Túrin son of Húrin, and thought she knew not the name a shadow fell upon her mind .
What is more, it is a well-known truth that the initial impression is the most important and often most right one. In addition to this, I believe that it was Tolkien's personal opinion too. After all, writers use specific words and expressions and mention special moments so that they can both reveal their own approach and express the idea he had wanted to present by his work. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that after Tolkien says that she felt uncomfortable and 'a shadow fell on her' it was really true because he couldn't know less.
I believe that if Niniel, had listened to that shadow and had waited a little more before taking such a serious decision, she wouldn't have challenged her doom.
It is simple, logical common sense that a person wants to marry someone whom he loves and she loved Turin, the mere arrival of a fear wouldn't have lessened her love for him. She went by her heart and married Turin, and remember she was really happy with it also. All this circumstances proved "The shadow" as a momentary doubt to her.
Yes, indeed she loved him but more as a brother. Even in the beginning she would have probably continued to love him as a brother but not a lover if, of course, Turin himself hadn't fallen in love with her and proposed her. 'Shadow' is never temporary and it always come back because without the Shadow how can we appreciate the Light? That's why she might have done the right thing if we look from another aspect:
-experience is always gained through mistakes and people should make mistakes. However, I personaly reckon that she should have listened to her heart in this occasion because she indeed received signs and because of her intuition.
What concious thinking? She wasn't concious of her past, knew no solid facts from her past, then how could have she taken another step? She had no inkling what her past was...to her the life in Brethil was a new life and Turamabar someone who she had never met/known before. The presence of Turin made her glad, made her happy then why should she forfiet her happiness, her love just because of the presence of a mere fear/doubt?
Yes, but as I have already said she was a person and she had a logivcal thinking and she had intuition. His presence made her happy but she also felt the 'Shadow' because of him. That's why she should have considred her marriage more seriously.
But as you said she should have listened to her heart....and indeed she did the same thing...she listened to her heart and married Turin.
She listened to her heart but not the spontanious initial one but the second influanced one! Yes she was then listening to her fallen-in-love heart and not to her consious intuitive soul!

[Beleg]

because she let her heart fall in love.
I can't understand how can you stop your heart from falling in love with someone. Love was allready between them, only the platonic characteristic changed into a more intimate one.

She had senses, feelings, intuitian and the power of taking logical decisions based on her own intuitian

That's what I am trying to say. indeed she took logical decisions based on her own intuitian. Except for one point, she always felt glad and cheerful in Turin's presense. His presence soothed her heart and warmed it; she felt contentment flowing through her viens. What more a woman can want? A great, handsome man who loves you greatly, to the extent of insaneness, he is a reknowned captain and warrior of men, who you in turn also love. Seeing from a logical point-of-view based upon the information present to her, they both seem like a perfect couple.

What is more, it is a well-known truth that the initial impression is the most important and often most right one.

Okay then, lets sneak a peak at her intial expression,

1. Turin is the first man she talks to after waking from her deep sleep of forgotfullness.

2. The narrative continues and her hurts are tends by the expert hands of Brandir. Many people come to meet her but,

But only when Turambar stayed near her would she lie at peace, or sleep without moaning; and this thing all marked that watched her

Note the point, she has allready found familiarity and peace in the companionship of Turin, one of the first and essential most steps towards love.

The above point in intial expression No#1.

3. The saga continues, taught by the women of Brethil she gradually learns more about the world, and becomes more concious of the various duties/favours/tasks that have appointed to different people. Surely, she also learns the meaning of love and its consequences, the familiarity, the acquintace that had developed in the intial stage now grows to something bigger, Love and she also begans to feel it.

But to Turambar her heart was given, and only at his coining would she smile, and only when he spoke gaily would she laugh.

4. Now she recovers fully in physical health, the chemisty between them starts to act up, He asks her hand in marriage,
NOTE HER INTIAL EXPRESSION

And now Níniel was fully healed, and was grown fair and strong; and Turambar restrained himself no longer, but asked her in marriage. Then Níniel was glad

5. But...But Brandir butts in...playing the role of a typical zealously jelous outcasts, he adheres Niniel not to marry Turambar, and warns her that he indeed is Turin, cursed-by-Morgoth. Now Indeed Brandir knows nothing about Niniel's heritage, nay he does not, but he intends to sway Niniel away from Turin for he presumes that the love between them is for a short period only, and does not comprehend the deepness of their mutual chemistry. He tries to keep her away by telling to her about Turin's enimty with fate. No wonder Brandir is driven by the love of Niniel and the lust to have her,
But look what Niniel says,

"Wise brother?" he answered. "Lame brother, rather, un_loved and unlovely. And I scarce know why. Yet there lies a shadow on this man, and I am afraid."
"There was a shadow," said Níniel, "for so he told me. But he has escaped from it, even as I. And is he not worthy of love? Though he now holds himself at peace, was he not once the greatest captain, from whom all our enemies would flee, if they saw him?"


And yes, Turin is living contently in the confines of Brethil, in the city of Amon Obel and indeed in his glory so outward or materialistic sign of darkness in evident in him. And it seems that he has turned a new leaf, started all over again...As is often the case in real world, on which Tolkien based most of his thougths. For Turin's state is not different from Niniel's a lot...both have turned a new leaf....both are starting a new life...both have the right to start the new life..

*****

TBC

[Beleg]

6. Ah well, she is troubled by the thoughts of Brandir and seeks council with herself, thus holding off her decision of marriage..
Another year pass, she has surely thought greatly and carefully about the topic of Turin now and since she was eager to learn, she would surely have councilled all avalable sources regarding and concerning Turin's history. His life history would have created much sympthy in her mind, which would be a plus point in her acceptance of marriage that is to follow..

But the main point is that one year passes in which surely she contemplates a great deal on her future relationship with Turin.

Ah Well, another year passes, like a Gallant Knight Turin once again comes up with his request, and since Niniel now have contemplated a great deal on the subject, consulting all the resources and logically viewing it, she now accepts. And Notice her acceptance is not forced, infact she is glad and shows no signs of doubt...

Then she was glad indeed, and she plighted her troth, and at the mid-summer they were wedded;

***

In addition to this, I believe that it was Tolkien's personal opinion too

Just how exactly do you know? Any Facts/Quotes?




Therefore, it is logical to conclude that after Tolkien says that she felt uncomfortable and 'a shadow fell on her' it was really true because he couldn't know less.

Right, and what about the fact that every two sentences he seems to say that she was sooo happy with him and loved him greatly, remember talking about the doubt created in her mind, sure she would have heard past stories about Turin Turambar and some of the rumors would be pretty strange too. No wonder a question mark would be created in her mind about the credibility of his claim about marrying her. Somewhat effected by the darkness of the rumors about Turin, in a wan moment these rumor's would also catch her heart and she would question Turin's motives and his character....but after she would have studied the Turin of Brethil in great detail, she had no qualms. For indeed negating the hearsay, the rumors, she had a materistic evidance, in the form of the person itself, to comprehend and judge the character.

she wouldn't have challenged her doom. Care to explain a bit? How can one change its doom/desity if it's pre-written?How could she have evaded the curse of Morgoth, when it lay on her?

Yes, indeed she loved him but more as a brother

Ah But tell me even one occurance when she met him as his brother? Her love for Turin-as-brother was based his fame and the fact that he was her brother, so it definately brings a sort of love with itself, but her love for Turin-as-lover was for the man itself.

And how can you say she loved him more as a brother then as a Lover? Circumstances totally negate your claim...

Even in the beginning she would have probably continued to love him as a brother but not a lover if, of course, Turin himself hadn't fallen in love with her and proposed her.

Oh, come of it! if you read the given quote's carefully then you'll she that the seed of love for Turin as-something-other-then-a-brother was planted in her heart, way, way before he purposed her...

'Shadow' is never temporary

So if you are in doubt about something, you always remain in doubt about it?

I believe that if Niniel, had listened to that shadow and had waited a little more before taking such a serious decision

How much longer should she have waited? If she was satisfied in her heart then why not marry him?

I personaly reckon that she should have listened to her heart in this occasion because she indeed received signs and because of her intuition.

I suggest reading some of the above given Quotes.

His presence made her happy but she also felt the 'Shadow' because of him

Not because of him! Never! certainly not because of Brethil Turin! Doubt was only aroused in her concerning her fame, or more precisely the fame his name brought with it, which in some cases was downright negative.

She listened to her heart but not the spontanious initial one but the second influanced one!

Bingo! Please, read and try to understand the above Quotes.

Yes she was then listening to her fallen-in-love heart and not to her consious intuitive soul!

Pooh! That's nothing valid. What was her consious intuitive sole? What was it consious of?

I suggest a more carefully reading of some of the Quotes, because Finduilas most of your thoughts contradict eachother.

[Eledhwen]

Beleg-Strongbow: But when Turin insisted that he would go to war or marry Niniel, then she married him, for indeed she loved him and couldn't have bear that any harm may come to Turin. This was purely and simply emotional blackmail to which Niniel gave in. But we mustn't be too hard on her. She was lost in the forest, had no history or memory, and had fallen in love with a gorgeous guy who loved her too. Who wouldn't dispell the foreboding at the back of their heart and go for the happiness the relationship promised?

Here's a beermat for you, Beleg...

[Finduilas]

I suggest a more carefully reading of some of the Quotes, because Finduilas most of your thoughts contradict eachother.
Love is a very flexible topic which has many aspects and nuances.That is why, when talking about the world's most popular feeling you cannot expect to have clear borders and rules,because there are no rules in Love!Some of my posts may contradict each other if you read them superficially,but they actually reveal different shades of Love,which are both sometimes similar and yet completely different.So I suggest you try not only read but probe deeply into them.

I can't understand how can you stop your heart from falling in love with someone. Love was allready between them, only the platonic characteristic changed into a more intimate one.
Love is a game, a pretty nasty one but yet a game. It's a puzzle but it's your heart that is to be pieced together.And all the parts are little impressions and insegnificant from first look actions.However, even if only one piece is lost or mistaken,if one action is made incorrectly or one impression interpreted inappropriately,then your heart...sadly can never be jointed from this pieces.Let me quote a famouse Bulgarian author,Evtim Evtimov:
This morning
under a window
I saw flowers that were thrown away,
just as feelings undesired,
just as living green wounds.
I was ready to take them up there,back,
at the window which was closed,
but I bypassed miserable,sad.
This morning
someone had thrown away
from the window
a pure Love.
...

[Finduilas]

Love can be 'thrown away' if you want to and if your heart feels so. My personal experience has learnt me some truths about life and love:
1. If you deeply wish and believe that your love will be unfortunate, then you can easily step away from your 'love' and let your soul fall in love again.This particularly I learnt from a friend of mine's experience which as you may guess ended by stopping her heart falling in love deeperly.
2. You should always listen to your initial heart's reactions.However, I haven't done it many times so far and of course I have suffered then.That is why,if your heart feels troubled and confused when firstly sees a 'beloved' person or faces the marriage problem,then it is obvious and logical to conclude that even though you may fall deeply in love later,this love will be doomed and shadowed.
What more a woman can want? A great, handsome man who loves you greatly, to the extent of insaneness, he is a reknowned captain and warrior of men, who you in turn also love. Seeing from a logical point-of-view based upon the information present to her, they both seem like a perfect couple.
I tend to think that it is not important how they looked from a side but what they felt to each other.There are many handsome boys who have extremely ugly girlfriends and,however,they love each other.If they knew themselves better and had gained a more intimate knowledge of themselves and THEN have realized they were born for one another,I don't think there would be something to stop them.However,if the only thing she found in him was this warmth and relaxing atmosphere which she necessarily needed after her experiences,then she hadn't taken the right decision.

1.Turin indeed is the first to talk to her and warm her heart and that's why she continued searching relief in his personality.However, there is a small narrative detail that tells us something important.
And it seems to me that what I long sought in vain has come to me." And as he went back to his house in the twilight, he said to himself: "Haudh-en-Elleth! From the green mound she came. Is that a sign, and how shall I read it?"
Oh,Haudh-en-Elleth!Finduilas's grave!From the green mound she came and in the green mound he had lived (and so had she).What is more,since he already thought of her as something more than a friend,he should have matched her arrival from Haudh-en-Elleth with Finduilas' death. Finduilas was his true Love but that was the place of grief where she passed away.Therefore, he should have concluded that his love towards Niniel wouldn't have been successful. Turin himself doubts and tries to unriddle the messagge.
2.
Note the point, she has allready found familiarity and peace in the companionship of Turin, one of the first and essential most steps towards love.
She later found love and understanding in many people,but her love and relationship with Turin was INITIALLY doomed...by Turin himself:
But I will give you a name, and call you Niniel, Maid of Tears." And at that name she looked up, and she shook her head, but said: Niniel. And that was the first word that she spoke after her darkness, and it was her name among the woodmen ever after.
He gave her a name doomed to make its owner miserable.Moreover, it was her first word to pronounce and that should have meant something,Sorrow.Tears-Sorrow.
...

[Finduilas]

3.
Then Níniel was glad
Glad to be loved,glad to be noticed and cared for.Everyone would be glad if was treated so.However,she didn't know to whom she was getting married.And as soon as she found out,despite not knowing anything about this TURIN,SON OF HURIN guy,a shadow fell on her.Past and present are always connected and the present can never run away from the past.Even though she had an 'amnesia' her intuition recognized her brother and the sorrow that marriage would bring to them.She was in love with the Turambar person from Brethil-lovely and handsome,bright and happy-she was glad to marry the INITIAL Turambar she met and not the one she already 'knew'.
4.
And is he not worthy of love? Though he now holds himself at peace, was he not once the greatest captain, from whom all our enemies would flee, if they saw him?
See,what she initially pointed as his advantages-'the greatest captain, from whom all our enemies would flee, if they saw him'.She didn't say :'He's lovely,handsome,cheerful,reliable...'No,she noticed his material side because she actually didn't know him so well because she didn't know his past.People say: 'A man is what his Past is.'It turns out then that they both didn't know so well.Then is it reasonable to get married to a man/woman you don't know?
Everybody deserves a second chance even if he only repents for doing something or for that he is a human BEING!
both have the right to start the new life..
I should continue it like this..:
...both were unlucky to start a new life...both didn't know how to start a new life...

As for Turin he was unluckily born he was not just a human, he was an unlucky human and thus his fate would always be a doom.

6.
Ah Well, another year passes, like a Gallant Knight Turin once again comes up with his request, and since Niniel now have contemplated a great deal on the subject, consulting all the resources and logically viewing it, she now accepts. And Notice her acceptance is not forced, infact she is glad and shows no signs of doubt...
Haven't you noticed that when you love someone and you do not reveal endlessly in some way this love it grows greater?She has lived with her love for two years and has been thinking of it all the time.Therefore,it grew bigger only because of the fact that she tought of her love towards Turin every second.Now after being shown his love and 'forcing' her love get larger during the years,she feels more comfortable and sure of her decision.But she is deceived by the nature of people.
Just how exactly do you know? Any Facts/Quotes?
Haven't you studied Literature?! Don't you participate in debates,discussions,analyses?! There are and methaphorical meanings of words,expressions,phrases,paragraphs,dialogues,etc .
There are different ways of interpreting the text and thus I concluded so.I'm not sure,however,whether I'm going to find any specific Quotes but after all this is belles letters and it suggests a more thorough work on the text and it's real messagges.If Tolkien had wanted to create a dry dull History,he wouldn't have written so many marvellous poems,myths,etc. and thought of so many new words,languages,etc.He would have created dates,events,battles but the magic flame would have lost and his works wouldn't be called Literature.We should learn to read through the lines.
...

[Finduilas]

How can one change its doom/desity if it's pre-written?How could she have evaded the curse of Morgoth, when it lay on her?
Turin's doom lay on him,obviously,but her wasn't pre-written.Turin was born unlucky and he was unlucky till the rest of his life.However,Nienor could have changed her fate.Theoretically,everyon can but it is another matter whether you want,realize and do change it. After all,why are fates pre-written?In order to be changed and made better...
And how can you say she loved him more as a brother then as a Lover? Circumstances totally negate your claim...
He came out of nowhere and saved her,he loved and understood her,he taught her,he was her friend... and even though the circumstances developed in a different way he was firstly her lost 'brother'...
the seed of love for Turin as-something-other-then-a-brother was planted in her heart, way, way before he purposed her...
Now this is a talking...You then say that the world's greatest sin was 'planted' in her heart long ago...?!
So if you are in doubt about something, you always remain in doubt about it?
I said 'Shadow' but not doubt.And what I ment was that if something dark fall on you and a negative stuff shadows your life,you cannot get rid of it because it will remain in a way,even slightly,and will return from time to time.
How much longer should she have waited? If she was satisfied in her heart then why not marry him?
Well,I believe she shouldn't have married him at all,but since she was very confused and even 'slipt in a wrong way',it seems her marriage was then irreversible.
Not because of him! Never! certainly not because of Brethil Turin! Doubt was only aroused in her concerning her fame, or more precisely the fame his name brought with it, which in some cases was downright negative.
Your name,that's you! Even Turin couln'd run away from his name and his doom,lying at his name,chaed and reached him.She was doubted because of the man,called Turin,Turambar,Mormegil...She felt the 'Shadow' THAT man carried and that's why she felt the same 'Shadow' even closer.
What was her consious intuitive sole? What was it consious of?
It was conscious of the 'Shadow' that Turin had and of all the conclusions that she probably had got to.However, she was then already in love too deeply than she should have been.And 'didn't want' to listen to that side of her heart.

Belles-Lettres can be interpreted in many ways and it is OFTEN upto the reader's point of view and approach towards life.That's why it is logical that we have talking at cross-purposes in our opinions.After all, we are not one and the same person and we should have a different personality.And if there is no debate,we will never appreciate the value of our attitude and the individuality of our thoughts.


* * *
Now I want to say that my biography is totally completed.I'm looking forward to the next one...:)

[Beleg]

Love is a very flexible topic which has many aspects and nuances.That is why, when talking about the world's most popular feeling you cannot expect to have clear borders and rules,because there are no rules in Love!Some of my posts may contradict each other if you read them superficially,but they actually reveal different shades of Love,which are both sometimes similar and yet completely different.So I suggest you try not only read but probe deeply into them.

Our object is not to explain love or probe it's hidden meaning. Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about whether it was Niniel's fault that woe's came upon her or was it the effect of Melkor's curse and no fault of Niniel. And that is not a generalized topic. We have a Canon in front of us, and that is Tolkien's work. We are discussing content related to Tolkien's work, and discussing his motives, therefore Tolkien's work is like a Bible with regard to discussing this topic.
If we are to expand this discussion, then it would never come to an end. Our object is to justify our claims by providing subsequents texts and Quote's from Tolkien's work.

If you deeply wish and believe that your love will be unfortunate, then you can easily step away from your 'love' and let your soul fall in love again.This particularly I learnt from a friend of mine's experience which as you may guess ended by stopping her heart falling in love deeperly.

And how is this justificable in the case of Niniel's and Turin's love? How is it relevant to their situation? I think we have established the fact that there was indeed love, carnal or platonic, or both between them. So we are done with it. No need to dig deep in the vast confines of many explainations of love.


You should always listen to your initial heart's reactions.However, I haven't done it many times so far and of course I have suffered then.

Guess, you are proving my point here, allthough it is allready proven. The initial heart reaction has allready been given.

I tend to think that it is not important how they looked from a side but what they felt to each other.

They loved eachother, as simple as that.

continued searching relief
She never searched relief in him. She underwent geniune merriment and contentment in his company.

Oh,Haudh-en-Elleth!Finduilas's grave!From the green mound she came and in the green mound he had lived (and so had she).

How can one living live inside a mound? What is more,since he already thought of her as something more than a friend,he should have matched her arrival from Haudh-en-Elleth with Finduilas' death.
Why would he do that? Therefore, he should have concluded that his love towards Niniel wouldn't have been successful

That is only supposition without any solid backing up. It's only a probability. Rather more logical answer to me it seems is that he would rather think that he has found love again. His friend, Finduilas who would always had wished him well, has (in a manner of speaking) sent someone in which he would found love, fullfilling the oath of friendship...trying to wipe away his sorrows...He gave her a name doomed to make its owner miserable.Moreover, it was her first word to pronounce and that should have meant something,Sorrow.Tears-Sorrow.
And just exactly how was it doomed to make it's owner miserable? That doesn't prove that she didn't love him.

She later found love and understanding in many people,but her love and relationship with Turin was INITIALLY doomed...by Turin himself:
Who are the "Many" people? How was it doomed? Just because he game her a name regarding her present condition...she was a maiden, a fair maiden, from the time on she had met Turin, she had only cried...thus "Maiden of Tears" seems a suitble name. And as soon as she found out,despite not knowing anything about this TURIN,SON OF HURIN guy,a shadow fell on her

She would know who Turin s/o Hurin was. What she wouldn't know would be who she herself was and what was her relationship to him. Turin's past would be filled with doubts, deciets, darkness, mourning and mishap. Turin was said to be the weilder of woe. Naturally a doubt would come in one's mind when he/she evaluates/thinks about the shadowed past of someone.

Continued...

[Beleg]

and the present can never run away from the past Where does Tolkien say that? And what is the evidance of it? How was she supposed to know about her past, when she was under the spell of Dragon? However,she didn't know to whom she was getting married.
She was getting married to Turin and Tolkien makes that crystal clear in the book. she was glad to marry the INITIAL Turambar she met and not the one she already 'knew'.

Now you are coming closer in assisting my point.
She didn't knew any Turin. She had never met her brother before.
I am repeating this again, given all the facts, contradictions, prophecys, what not, how was she supposed to know that she was Niniel? and that even though she loved Turin, she wasn't supposed to marry him? 'No,she noticed his material side because she actually didn't know him so well because she didn't know his past.
How come you validify your point? When all the general evidance points towards the fact that the reputation and life was Turin before his arrival in Brethil was generally known to the Halladan, and she Niniel would surely have learned it from them and from Turin also.

'A man is what his Past is.

And people also say, "If one who becomes tainted comes back to the straight path then we don't call him tainted." and "Its better to leave the past and concentrate on the future." So what people say doesn't matter. Everyone has it's own prespective of regarding different thoughts, and unless that prespective is proven true with evidences, it's merely a possibility however valid it might seem.

Everybody deserves a second chance even if he only repents for doing something or for that he is a human BEING!

Contradiction! Total contradiction of your own thoughts! what am I supposed to say?

both were unlucky to start a new life...both didn't know how to start a new life...

For heaven's sake both were happy in Amon Obel, both loved eachother, boths present lives were filled with contentment except for one taint. Both were adults...both got married...just how exactly is a life started in your opinion? Weren't they both living a successfull and happy life? Yes, they were and that's that.

As for Turin he was unluckily born he was not just a human, he was an unlucky human and thus his fate would always be a doom.

Explaination needed please....He was not "Unluckily" born. Hurin didn't even meet Morgoth till Turin was 7 years old. And there is no concept in Arda of pre-written or pre-destined fate as is in some of the earthly religions.

Remember they were both young, full of spirit, life seemed to become joyfull again for them. Their hopes were high, they both believed "that they had left the shadow far behind". They both loved eachother, they both Understood eachother, every reason to get married...don't ya think?


Therefore,it grew bigger only because of the fact that she tought of her love towards Turin every second

Which proves to me that she indeed loved her. One doesn't think about idle things "every second" of his/her life. How can one force one's love to get larger? Either you're paraphrasing is wrong, your thoughts are not coherrent, can't be formed in one chain or you haven't understood what we have been talking in the last few posts.

But even if she forced her heart to believe that she loved Turin, then wouldn't there be a nagging feeling present in her heart?; she would never be content with her life...her concious wouldn't allow her to live with that...but never once has there been any indication in Narn, Silm, or other sources that she was unhappy while living with him or loving him.

Haven't you studied Literature?! Don't you participate in debates,discussions,analyses?! There are and methaphorical meanings of words,expressions,phrases,paragraphs,dialogues,etc I have Madam, and I also know that one's claim has no value until one presents a solid material fact which varifies one's claim. And what had my asking you for a Quote to back your poor arguement with a Quote anything to do with my participating in Debates, discussion and analayses? We are not analyzing anything, nay we are try to prove our point but stringing up facts.
Don't try to steer the topic away from the subject at hand.

If Tolkien had wanted to create a dry dull History,
Tolkien is merely a narrater, in his world, this story was merely transmitted to him, he wasn't the author, the author is Dirhavel of the havens of Sirion.

We should learn to read through the lines.
IMHO, this comment is not worthy of an answer.

I want to make my point clear,

My Point is simple...

Niniel wasn't responsible for her dark fate, she didn't create her dark fate through her own actions....it was the result of Morgoth's Baulgir's curse on her and her kith. Her love for Turin was true and geniune and viceversa. Given the circumstances, she had absolutely no way of knowing that she indeed by Turin's Sister and thus wasn't eligble to mary him.

Here are the Quote's, all except one from Quenta Silmarillion that support my claim,


Narn, UT
But to Turambar her heart was given, and only at his coining would she smile, and only when he spoke gaily would she laugh.

Narn, UT
And now Níniel was fully healed, and was grown fair and strong; and Turambar restrained himself no longer, but asked her in marriage. Then Níniel was glad

Narn, UTThen she was glad indeed, and she plighted her troth, and at the mid-summer they were wedded; and the woodmen made a great feast, and they gave them a fair house which they had built for them upon Amon Obel. There they dwelt in happiness,

Narn, UT
Níniel most dear

Narn, UT
Farewell, O twice beloved

Published Silmarillion
Then Morgoth stretching out his long arm towards Dor-lómin cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, saying: "Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world

The woe's of Niniel and Turin were the result of Melkor's curse and not their own fault.

[FoolOfATook]

Gil-Galad- is there any way that my character profile might be postponed. Between my summer class and getting the Herald on its feet, it's become abundantly clear to me that I'll never have the time to finish my profile of the greatest hero of the Third Age by June 1. My most humble and fullest apologies.

[Lhunithiliel]

On behalf of G-G, I'd say "Don't worry!" :D
This is the time-schedule so far:
MAY 11th 2003 -Aldarion by Lhunithiliel - done
MAY 18th 2003 -Niniel by Finduilas- done
MAY 25th 2003-Beleg Strongbow by Beleg_strongbow
JUNE 1st 2003-Pippin Took by Foolofatook
JUNE 8th 2003-Gil-galad by Gil-Galad
JUNE 15th 2003-Melian by Melian
JUNE 22nd 2003-Turin by Beleg_strongbow
JUNE 29th 2003 -Feanor by Gil-Galad
JULY 6th 2003-Beren by Eol
JULY 13th 2003-Finduilas by Beleg_strongbow
JULY 20th 2003-Galadriel by Ithrynluin
JULY 27th 2003-Tuor by Eol
AUGUST 3rd 2003-Aragorn by Mrs.Maggott
AUGUST 10th 2003-Eowyn by LadyDernhelm
AUGUST 17th 2003-Finrod Felagund by Nym
AUGUST 24th 2003-Arwen by Bethelarien
AUGUST 31st 2003-Samwise Gamgee by Kementari
SEPTEMBER 7th 2003-Idril by Idril
SEPTEMBER 14th 2003-Bilbo Baggins by Eledwhen

[Inderjit S]

I was wondering if I could do the sons of Feanor.

[Ithrynluin]

I won't be able to deliver my character profile till July 20 either. I would like to postpone it indefinitely.

[Beleg]

I'll be posting my profile on 26th, (25th for the Europeon and Americans). Sorry for the delay of one day.

[Finduilas]

I have Madam, and I also know that one's claim has no value until one presents a solid material fact which varifies one's claim. And what had my asking you for a Quote to back your poor arguement with a Quote anything to do with my participating in Debates, discussion and analayses? We are not analyzing anything, nay we are try to prove our point but stringing up facts.
I'm not trying to steer the topic away! Indeed I don't!And if you forget for a minute your stubbornness and try to get deeper in what I'm trying to message you,you may decide that the others' opinions are of value too.
So if you want quotes,you'll have them!
From The Letters Of J.R.R.Tolkien:
It is not possible even at great lenght to 'pot' The Lord of the Rings in a paragraph or two.It was began in 1936,and every part has been written many times.Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered... I have finished it,it is 'off my mind':the labour has been colossal;and it must stand or fall,practically as it is.
Tolkien himself says that every word he has written is longly considered and has a message.Thus he actually says: 'Read carefully and unriddle my words because 'the labour is colossal' and I don't want it to be a futile attempt!'
Do you think that he should have considered so deeply every word if he didn't want it to be special,to learn us something more about the plot and how we should perceive it?When you read a simple historical book do you notice the adjectives?Are they picteresque,are the verbs special,metaphorical,are the phrases the author uses one of a kind and with hidden context?No there you only notice the facts while Tolkien works try to influance,fascinate and at the same time-make us think about the characters' actions,speeches,etc. and how they reveal their personalities.
That's not a diversion from the topic,NO! It's just a kind of sort out because it's really important to know how to interpret a work of art.

[Gil-Galad]

hmmmmmm...........lots of postponed characters..........tooo bad :mad: :mad: :mad: .........but don't worry FOAT,you can do it when you have time.just inform me when you will be able to do it.

Ithy,there is very much time to 20th July.when can you post it?sooner or later?I hope you will do it .....:( :( :(

Inderjit S-you want to take all Feanor's sons?That's lot of work will you be able to do ti for June 1st,the date of FOAT?Thus there won't be a week without a character.I do hope you will manage to make it.If you can't I'll give you another date,ok?

[Gil-Galad]

Fin,the painting with the dragon in really cool.I like it!

Beleg,you do a great work critsizing Finduilas about some matters,but she does the best she can and having in mind her age and the books she's read I would say she has done a great work too.

We are all expecting 26th May and you magnificent work(I'm sure it will be magnificent.

[Beleg]

Beleg,you do a great work critsizing Finduilas about some matters,but she does the best she can and having in mind her age and the books she's read I would say she has done a great work too.

Why does everyone take it the wrong way? I am not criticizing Finduilas' work. Nay, not so. I am merely discussing a point which I feel is controversial with her and on which she and I have different opinions.

***



I'm not trying to steer the topic away! Indeed I don't!And if you forget for a minute your stubbornness and try to get deeper in what I'm trying to message you,you may decide that the others' opinions are of value too.
Stubbourness Indeed! So you are trying to message me to forget what seems so probably and go by your explaination?
Perhaps It is wrong of me to think this as an arguement, or even a debate...for you haven't still proved to me that Niniel was guilty given the current cricumstances herself for the darkness of her fate. When do i say I don't think other's opinions are of no value?
But opinions can be wrong and when we are trying to look up facts, opinions often need to be neglected. Your opinion might be wrong, mine might be wrong...Frankly I am tired to wandering in circles and try to answer/prove points that have allready been proven. I have stated explictly what my thoughts are and how my arguement is backed. Counter them all you like but i don't have the patience and time to side-stripped in matters totally different from the topic.

From The Letters Of J.R.R.Tolkien:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not possible even at great lenght to 'pot' The Lord of the Rings in a paragraph or two.It was began in 1936,and every part has been written many times.Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered... I have finished it,it is 'off my mind':the labour has been colossal;and it must stand or fall,practically as it is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you are suggesting that everything in Silmarillion and LOTR has dual meaning....Man, it'd take ages to interpret Silmarillion then! When it is stated in Silmarillion sound and clear that Niniel had no way of knowing who Turin was, and that she loved Turin and wanted his hand in marriage so she married him. I don't think we can eek out any other sane interpretation from the chapter Niniel in Brethil.

Tolkien himself says that every word he has written is longly considered and has a message.Thus he actually says: 'Read carefully and unriddle my words because 'the labour is colossal' and I don't want it to be a futile attempt!'

Isn't me doing the same thing in Interpreting the situation of Niniel and Turin in Brethil? and backing my interpretation with canonical facts.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Why does everyone take it the wrong way? I am not criticizing Finduilas' work. Nay, not so. I am merely discussing a point which I feel is controversial with her and on which she and I have different opinions.


I'm sorry if I offended you,but I didnot have in mind "criticizing" in the bad meaning.Criticizing can be also with good purposes,like your.And actually you both did excellent commentaries on Niniel's life.!

[Finduilas]

Stubbourness Indeed! So you are trying to message me to forget what seems so probably and go by your explaination?
No!No!And no!
I try to message you to consider both facts and interpretation equally thorough.For you only give me certain Quotes,which have been posted so many times that seem useless to be put here again and that I almost know by heart already!
The Quotes you and I gave are really incredibly important but they are only the base from which we have to start a 'construction'.Because if we are only and constantly looking for clear and exact Quotes,expressing the authors opinion,way of thinking and also idea of what the text should have meant for us,then there's no use of the marvellous descriptions,deeply considered words,phrases and retorts.Writers address their works to us,the readers,but not openly.This dialogue is made by the author's work itself and the approach we have towards it.
I don't think we can eek out any other sane interpretation from the chapter Niniel in Brethil.
Then you obviously haven't been reading my posts so far.
and backing my interpretation with canonical facts.
That's it!
You only think of the backing-up part and the 'canonical' facts!
In the beginning we did back up our theses with Quotes which that seem to be one and the same.However,when starting to interpret(because there's a such part too!),you said no,no!You can't back it up! Well,I did by posting the Quote and unriddling its probable hidden meaning but you again said no!Tolkien hadn't said it clearly!
So do you think I find it less boring to 'fight' with such a stubbornness?


-------------------------------
BTW,happy new avatar,beleg!:)

[Gil-Galad]

oooooooooooooo,,Fin,Beleg,calm down plaese and shake your hands.I feel that thiese comments should be ended up,or it will become quite rude............
So Beleg,we are looking forward to your biography!

[BlackCaptain]

Hmm... This seems fun! Could I by any chance have the Nazgûl? I can't just do the Witch-King because that'd be way too short...

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, Black Captain!

......as a wraith to a wraith... ;) ... you can OF COURSE get the character of a Nazgul! Just promise you'll do a very fine profile of us! ;) :D

There is time enough for you to work on the profile. Check the Sticky thread Gallery of Characters where you can see the whole proposed list of characters and the dates of those already taken.

WELCOME! :)

[Finduilas]

Just a quick notice.
Beleg,we are waiting for your certainly well-organized work which according to the list and your recent post was supposed to be posted yesterday...
Anyway,don't worry because I believe you have a reasonable excuse or some kind of work so feel free to pst the biography when you have time and the opportunity to do so.
The only requirement is to do it earlier than the 28th so that we have time for consideration between the two biographies-yours and FOAT's.

* * *
By the way,I offer you peace.:) Agree?:)

[Beleg]

Just a quick notice.
Beleg,we are waiting for your certainly well-organized work which according to the list and your recent post was supposed to be posted yesterday...
Anyway,don't worry because I believe you have a reasonable excuse or some kind of work so feel free to pst the biography when you have time and the opportunity to do so.
The only requirement is to do it earlier than the 28th so that we have time for consideration between the two biographies-yours and FOAT's.

* * *
By the way,I offer you peace. Agree?

The only reason that I haven't posted my work yet is because I am too lazy to complete what I have started. As of now, Only the part of BOLT2 is left in the biography of Beleg. And because I have been preparing for my exams that are due to start in one week. We are having prep tests, and I spend 8 to 9 hours in school studying for them plus working in the home also. My computer usage has dropped down considerably during the last couple of days.

As for the last sentence, my sincere appologies Finduilas. Believe me, I for once can never think anything ill of you, not for real and If I said anything at all that might have sounded offensive (And I know there were sentence, which on retrospect I felt were not needed) I offer my sincerest appologises.
Please, forgive my hotheadedness, again my sincerest appologises.

Thanks for the new Avatar:):)

Peace for eternity! Yay!

[Finduilas]

You can't imagine how releaved I am!I thought I have created an 'enemy' but not a friend as I wished.I'm really impressed by your work here and I surely didn't want to cross you.Not at all!:)
Anyway,happy to get on well again.:)
I also would like to apologise if I have insulted you with some of my posts.I'm sorry.:)
:) Peace!:)

As for the biography,don't worry.Feel free to post it when you are ready but please try to be by the end of the month so that there won't be any confusing situations with the two biographies-yours and FOAT's.
I know how hard it is to prepare for school exams and matters.I myself have an exam(the 1st part) on Sunday and have a lot to study.I know that many other members are in the same position so you can be sure you face a lot of understaning here.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Now, you two young Squires!!!
You have made your Master (Mom ;) ) very happy by settling your row.
Please, keep cool your young blood and remember that debates and discussions (both - in the forum as well as in real life) should be done with cool head! ;) :D :D

I am happy you have made peace...
...in fact, i have never even suspected other outcome from your debate! ;) ....

[Finduilas]

First of all,let me congratulate you,Beleg,for your masterwork.It is really impressive!I read it all in a breath though quite carefully.:)
The first thing that impressed me was the marvellous narrative.It really involves you in the character's fate.What is more,you've created a very thorough piece of work which deserves its recognition.
I have still read it only once but I can even now say that almost every your opinion,perfectly stated,either convinces me or is like mine.However,I'll read it a couple of times more and if any questions appear I'll post them.

There are some certain passages that left a very nice impression in me from the first reading.Here they are:
On a side note,we are also told that Túrin was indeed beautiful,no wonder many elven babes fell for him.
On the contrary Túrin urges Beleg to stay with them,but that Beleg shouldn't do,couldn't do and wouldn't do.
And Lo!the drama unfolds,Túrin is at work again.The dominion of Orcs and Morgoth has spread far and wide.Dimbar has fallen under their shadow,Brethil is surrounded from two sides by Hostile enemies.The wilds between Narog and Doriath are being filled by Orcs.And who comes into action?Túrin!as expected but not alone...lo and behold!for with him goes The Strongbow! The helm of Hador is again publicized and whispers travel across the length and breadth of Bleriand.
(especially for this paragraph I liked the passion and great narrative skills with which the opinion is described.)
Rat-a-tat! Túrin is free~! But all is not ended...The tragedy is begun.'
I also totally agree with this passage:
This passage perhaps is the epitome of Beleg's hunting skills.No other person could have followed the outlaws so efficantly and so correctly and don't lost their trail but he is one of his most shining one's too IMO.
I once again congratulate you on your feat.

[Finduilas]

Now,ithrynluin,since you won't be able to post your biography on time would you like to replace your date with CaptainBlack's ( 21st September) and he'll get yours?
By the way,I'd like to know if you,Inderjit S,are going to be able to post your biography.Please,confirm.

[Ithrynluin]

Yes, September 21 sounds good enough. Unless something comes along then...

[Finduilas]

OK,then the change is done.
BlackCaptain,we are expecting yor biography on 20th July.

[Lhunithiliel]

I just wanted to tell you that with your permission I'll enter your works into the TolkienWiki knowledgebase.
Here is how the page for Nienor (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Nienor) looks like there.
Like it, Findi? :) :D

I am about to arrange the Beleg-Strongbow page as well and I have asked an artist to make up a picture illustrating the content.
Beleg, just tell me whether you'll let me enter your research on this character into the knowledgebase.

Be sure that YOUR NAMES are always present at the respective pages. Thus, you reserve all rights over your writings. :cool:

[Beleg]

Beleg, just tell me whether you'll let me enter your research on this character into the knowledgebase.

Yeah Sure, why not. You can enter it. Specially considering that I myself haven't still learned the art of using a Wiki.:(

[Finduilas]

Lhun,it's great!I should thank you for doing this.:)

Specially considering that I myself haven't still learned the art of using a Wiki.

I don't know how to use it too.So Lhun why don't you start a thread learning us how to deal with TolkienWiki?

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah, the best way is : "Ask Walter" ;) :p :D

He will be very kind at first and do some things for you...but then he'll tell you that he has spent more than 2 hours arranging some of your entries and that you should learn do it yourself!

THAT'S the way I learnt how to work on the Wiki site !...LOL :D

(....pssst, Walt, this is just a joke!)

But, the truth is that one should at first read and then use the options on the left dark-green field.
And don't worry! Any mistake on Wiki can be corrected. This system is unique! Nothing can be lost or spoiled there! :)

[Gil-Galad]

Beleg,that is magnificent work!I'll have some time to read it and to think about it carefully,cause I've just come back from Black Sea and I need some time.

Finduilas thank you for taking my duties for the week I was offline.You did great job!Thank you!
And Who Will Post His Biography FOAT or Inderjit S?

[Ithrynluin]

Could I also have Círdan please? Scheduled preferably for October? :rolleyes: ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Could I also have Círdan please? Scheduled preferably for October? :rolleyes: ;)
Of course you could,my fellow ithy!?How can I refuse?!;) It will be in Octomber,it's not a porblem.

[Melian]

G-G.,my love! I couldn't ask you at the seaside ('cause we were busy with other stuff then)...has anyone taken Gollum?!
If not, please pass him to me since the Melian prtrait is on its way to the gallery.
And, oh, it's lovely to see you such an organizing master here!;)

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad

And Who Will Post His Biography FOAT or Inderjit S?

Well, it was supposed to be Inderjit but he's late.
Don't worry I'll pm him.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Melian
G-G.,my love! I couldn't ask you at the seaside ('cause we were busy with other stuff then)...has anyone taken Gollum?!
If not, please pass him to me since the Melian prtrait is on its way to the gallery.
And, oh, it's lovely to see you such an organizing master here!;)
Of course you can.I understand why you couldn't ask me.These German footballers were always around you!;) :cool:

[Lantarion]

I'd like to live up to my Númenor-related nick and do some of the Kings of Númenórë! :)
I could start with Ar-Pharazôn, as it doesn't seem to be taken.. Is that ok? And when would I need to post his review?

[Gil-Galad]

Lant,I'm glad you want to participate,and feel free to choose as many Numenorean kings as you want (up to 5 characters)!Check the Gallery for the date of your character.And also you are most welcome to participate in the dicsussions about every character!

I posted Gil-Galad's biography.I expect to be critisized about many things but the only source I had and I used were LOTR,SIL,UT, I have also BOLT 1,2, but I haven't read them yet.So my biography is based in these books and some addittional materials and researches.

[Melian]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Of course you can.I understand why you couldn't ask me.These German footballers were always around you!;) :cool:

Dear me!:) They seemed to be the smallest trouble, given what happened recently.:)

Now, I'm almost done with Melian. I must warn you my layout is a bit different from yours, because in it I have more questions than answers---what can I do--Maia are starnge birds...

And, G-G, well done! You must have put great effort in your posts, for they are so profound and precise! Well , I always knew it was easy to write about yourself!

[Gil-Galad]

Thank you Mel,I expected to be more critical.But it's not so easy to write about myself.I've done so many things that it was hard to describe all the greatness of my personality.;) :p :cool:

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey you two, what are these german footballers?! ;) :D Mel?! Behave, girl! :p :D :D

Anyway... G-G... I have started reading "your" profile and haven't finished it yet...:o
My problem however is that when entering your work on the characters into the worldwide knowledge-base of TolkienWiki, I have to thoroughly edit the profiles so that it could fit the format a normal knowledge-base requires.

I have successfully done it with Beleg's "Beleg" and I have started thinking on how to do it with G-G's character.
But taking into consideration that I am prity busy myslef, here is what I suggest:

1/ You make the profile as you see fit and post here.

2/ IF you wish your work to be entered into the TW knowledgebase, you shall have to write a brief summary and e-mail it to me. I'll handle the entering into the knowledgebase.
If you want to see what I mean, look at how "Beleg's work was done into an entry :


Beleg (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Beleg__Strongbow)

I have asked Scatha to draw a nice illustration to that page too and as soon as he's ready Beleg's page will be even more attractive! :D

[Manveru]

Mae govannen...
I was wondering, Gil-Galad...
May I take Fingolfin?

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,let me think about it,cause these days I haven't got even enough time for sleep,so I don't nkow whether I'll be able to do it.

Maveru,of course you can take Fingolfin!See the Gallery of Characters to check the date of your character.

:) ;)

I would like also to say,that due to some unexpected problems Melian's biography will be posted tommorow or the day after tommorow.Finduilas and I are doing our best to make it possible for posting as soon as possible.Mel,don't worry you'll have it soon.

[Gil-Galad]

CHANGES ARE NEEDED!

Having in mind that some people ,who have applied to participate in the Gallery of Characters,but have not yet posted their works,and they are pretty late .I have to tell you some things.

First of all,guys,if you feel you are not able to do it,please inform me,just like Ithrynluin did some time ago.He informed me months before his date and I was able to replace it.But now some biographies are totally late and I don't see any reason for that.

Please,please ,do what you wished to do,or if you can't inform me please.Of course sometimes some of us are pretty busy ,and of course it is possible to be late with some days but not too much.

The Gallery of Characters thread is not only made for the good of GoT , but also for the good of the whole TTF,because of its educational purpose.Please have this in mind,everytime when you do not do your job,the job you wanted to do.If you can't just don't.

I'm sorry for the rude language(if it can be called "rude"),but I talked to some people and we agree we cannot accept such attitude towards this thread.

[Beleg]

I am sorry for not posting Turin's Biography, but other things took up the preference and laziness is a factor too.
I will try to post the biography as soon as possible.
Sorry again for the inconvenience.

[Gil-Galad]

Beleg,don't take it personally.I have in mind all members.Those who are late,those who have not posted their character yet,and those who will post their characters in the future.
The Gallery of Characters should be one of the most serious threads because of it purpose and because of the deep researches which it requires.So I believe only a hard work will provide good results.
And Beleg,laziness?I bet you are not as lazy as me.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I would just like to remind everyone who is posting their characters.

IF you would like me to enter your work into the Wiki - knowledgebase, please, make a summary and e-mail it to me.

OK?

And I too apologize for delaying "Feanor"
:o :o :o

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,Beleg would you please post Turin and Feanor's biographies.I beg you.It seems to me that the whole thread is going to hell.:( :( :(
See:
JUNE 22nd 2003-Turin by Beleg_strongbow
JUNE 29th 2003 -Feanor by Gil-Galad(it will be done by Lhun)
JULY 6th 2003-Beren by Eol
JULY 13th 2003-Finduilas by Beleg_strongbow

NONE OF THESE FOUR WORKS HAS BEEN DONE BY ANYONE!
I'm really despaired from that fact.:( :(

[Lhunithiliel]

I know, G-G, I know!

But see? Almost everyone is away from here - vacations, exams... broken hearts...;) :D :D :D

The thrill of this activity is NOT, IMO, to just post the character but to have people aound to read them and comment ....

As we have discussed it with Mrs.Maggott at the Round Table, (I think :rolleyes: ) some activities should go on a summer vacation too. :)

What do you say? :rolleyes:

[Gil-Galad]

What do I think?
well.............tomorrow I have a university admission exam in English language in Sofia,and I'm in Sofia at the moment.But I do FIND some time to do my job in the forum.
If we let some activities go on a summer vacation,let's the whole forum go to on a summer vacation!:mad:

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all:

GOOD LUCK WITH THE EXAMS!!!!!!!

Second... 'see what I can do :o

Just don't get grumpy! It's me who has always had this "fame" around here! ;) :p :D

[BlackCaptain]

Hey I might be a little late on my report on the Nazgul... I have a REAL busy week all of a sudden, and have barely any time for this computer of mine... I hope it's ok if I'm a couple days late..:o

[Gil-Galad]

I hope it will be only a couple of days.:( :(

[Eöl]

G-G, I am very sorry, but I have not been able to post because of computer trouble. Did you get my e-mail or PM?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Eöl
G-G, I am very sorry, but I have not been able to post because of computer trouble. Did you get my e-mail or PM?
No.Please try to post it as soon as possible.
And I'll do Feanor's biography,before I eventually leave the forum.

[Mithrandread]

Hello:

I PM'd Lhun with this request, and she suggested that I apply here. I've noticed that there is no one assigned to prepare a profile for Gandalf. As he is my favorite Tolkien character, I would like the honor of preparing his profile.

I will be quite busy over the next several weeks. Indeed, from August 31st until September 21st, I will be away on a Quest, and I am preparing for it now. No kidding! For this reason, I'd like to have this finished by no later than the first week in November. It is most likely that I will have this done before then. Perhaps I may even be able to work on it during the Quest. I would like to begin my research now, if I am given the assignment.

Thank you!

[Beleg]

And I'll do Feanor's biography,before I eventually leave the forum.


What do you mean by eventually leave the forum???

Don't tell me you have decided to leave TTF!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Manveru]

Come on, Gil-Galad... you're kidding, right?

Is it this 'religious stuff' the reason for that? It's not even agreed whether it is created or not... I'm also against it, but I will not leave this Fine Community in regard of such 'minor threats'... NO WAY;) I am going to simply avoid it (as I always did... and as Eriol suggested me;)).

Come on... don't give up:D

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Manveru
Come on, Gil-Galad... you're kidding, right?

Is it this 'religious stuff' the reason for that? It's not even agreed whether it is created or not... I'm also against it, but I will not leave this Fine Community in regard of such 'minor threats'... NO WAY;) I am going to simply avoid it (as I always did... and as Eriol suggested me;)).

Come on... don't give up:D

Yes, it is the religious forum which does all this stuff! Sorry for speaking before GG has answered this but I have to say that all this 'minor threats' do the Major threats!
And if this Guild is accepted then the Tolkien 'stuff' will step behind the religious disputes and debates. Quarrels will appear and a lot of troubles which would be non-Tolkien related !
Is that what we want on our Tolkien forum?!And how can we ignore something that everybody else would take deeply seriously?

[Melian]

I'm afraid you're right.
I'm also afraid that this "non-Tolkien related" tendency has begun since long ago. I remember when I registered here for the first time- it was 2001 (though the number of my posts is small, I've been here for a while before you came).And the forum was still...how to say, young. It was much simpler then, so much less options and discussion threads.It was more serious and sophisticated, as it is now in the debates threads.
And what happened? It expanded, new members appeared (even 3 my compatriots). With the countless improvement, the forum began to lose some of its charms as well. Thereare so many topics right now and so much "stuff and bother" that it's no surprise religion came into the spotlight, too.
I observe what others do-many members resigned displeased with these changes. I myself, a rare guest indeed, kept my relationship more or less. And the solution is to consider the majority's demands and make the most of it.
I don't think G-G would leave us for that reason, but even if he does, I will try to stay here, for the forum still has place for those who like the old ways. You may not know it, but this guild is one such place.

[Finduilas]

Yes,Melian.I knew that you were when the forum was still young when actually GG came too.He later made me register and thus found this wonderful comunnity.However,as it was already said it has and is changing.The people are still lovely though much more but the atmosphere has changed on the board as a whole not in our Guild.
I still think that if this continues to evolve and the forum turns from 'A Tolkien-related one' to 'A Tolkien and other stuff-related one' then I'll either have to only stay in the Guild where Tolkien's works would be discussed or leave the forum.
Anyway, it is indeed worthy to stay for the wonderful debates and activities which are held here.

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Melian:
(...) for the forum still has place for those who like the old ways. You may not know it, but this guild is one such place.
HIP... HIP... HURRAY!!!!
:D :D :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mithrandread
Hello:

I PM'd Lhun with this request, and she suggested that I apply here. I've noticed that there is no one assigned to prepare a profile for Gandalf. As he is my favorite Tolkien character, I would like the honor of preparing his profile.

I will be quite busy over the next several weeks. Indeed, from August 31st until September 21st, I will be away on a Quest, and I am preparing for it now. No kidding! For this reason, I'd like to have this finished by no later than the first week in November. It is most likely that I will have this done before then. Perhaps I may even be able to work on it during the Quest. I would like to begin my research now, if I am given the assignment.

Thank you!

You are welcome to participate in the Guild.And having in mind that at the moment our Gallery is in a kind of " summer holiday" I suggest you to do Gandalf as soon as possible and just pm me when you are ready and we'll talk when to post it.Is is ok?

[Mithrandread]

Yes, that is fine. I shall do it as soon as I am able to, with all that's going on...

[Gil-Galad]

Thank you1It seems that there is at least ONE who would like to do something in the Gallery.:(

[Lhunithiliel]

I have read the Nazgul-story!

Oh! It reminded me of those powerful vreatures!

Thank you My Captain! :D

And here are my questions:

1/ Why were Maia like Radagast and Gandalf and Elves like Elrond so afraid of the reappearance of the Ringwraiths?

2/ Why did the Nazgul have this fierce thirst for killing...especially Men!?

3/ The "forgotten tongue" My Captain ;) spoke.... whoce language was that? From what times? In which kingdom?

4/ Why did the Black Captain withdraw at the coming of the dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith?

And here is one that I even had a thread open for discussing it...Yet ...here it comes again:

5/ What power did Sauron hold the Nazgul by? Why were they so much afraid of his wrath?


Well......

There you have these.:rolleyes:

I VERY MUCH hope we could have a nice discussion on this topic.

[BlackCaptain]

1/ In my own opinion, it is because the 9 together, and under their fell captain (:)) are the next most terrible and horrific thing from Sauron. Surely the wise would fear if Sauron himself came in search of the Ring? Well that degree of being-scared-ness is taken down just a step from Sauron fear to Nazgul fear. Something like that.... Anyone elses opinions?

2/ I wouldn't say that they have a fierce thirst for killing. They were for the most part of FotR trying to maintain their quest in utmost stealth, not even killing Merry at Bree fearing the effects his quailing from agony might have. In the other apearances they made it was simply in the sport of war and imperialism that they killed all of these people. It would be asking the same as why does Melkor enjoy killing people? They've been corrupted into evil beings, submitting only to Sauron's will. And Sauron's will was death to all who opose him

3/ I have not in my studies come across this 'forgotten tongue' that was used. I would assume it is the Black Tongue, because the Nazgul are from the East or Harad where Sauron's rule was dominant for the most part of the 2nd age. It would probably be labled 'forgotten' simply because it was never known; perhaps not forgotten.

4/ He withdrew because more urgent matters were now at hand... At the arrival of the Rohirrim he was now being flanked somewhat, and needed to return to rule and command his armies. Once he removed a descent enough amount of the Rohirrim, perhaps his assault on Minas Tirith could have continued, but the point of the assault was to make war, then take the city. What good would it have been if the forces of evil took the city then? They would still have to leave and account for all the soilders of Gondor and Rohan in the fields. A shame though, I was really hoping to finaly get a piece of Gandalf:rolleyes: :D

5/ AGh I forgot to put this into the report... I'll edit into the summary when I'm finished posting here... The Nine Rings of Men were taken by Sauron, and since the men were already enslaved to them (being enslaved the same way Gollum was enslaved to the one; always needing it) they would do anything and submit completely to Sauron's will to attain the powers that the Rings gave them. And then since Sauron controls the Nine Rings, he controls the Nine Riders, rendering them without a will (apart from Sauron's). I would not say they were afraid of their wrath either. Being without a will however does not mean they have no sense of joy or fear. Sauron was their master, and when the master is angry he could just take it out on his servants; his whiping boys. Undoubtedly they would be afraid of Sauron's wrath.

I hope that cleared things up a bit, if it didn't just let me know what I didnt explain correct and I'll do my best to clear it up...

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! Please My Captain!
It's not that YOU have not explained sth. !
It's just my interest for these characters (which we seem to share! ;) ) and that's why I offered these questions for discussion.

All right, here's what I think:

1/ I agree with you to a great extent. I see that in fact a Maia or/and an Elf feared the Nazgul not because of them in particular, but because of the one who stands behind them - Sauron !!!
And there are quite a few moments of Wraiths-Maia or Wraiths-Elves encounters described where it is seen that they can be defeated...even by some extraordinary Men like Aragorn for ex.
So, Yes! It must be Sauron and his actions that troubled the Council so much, not the Nazgul.
Yet....what magnificently fearful creatures were they !!!!!! ;)

2/ Now ... here I think the question comes more about the way of killing than the act of killing itself.

Remember?:
"... For no one can come between a Nazgul and his prey! But nay! I will not slay thee! I will bare thee away to the Houses of Lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shriviled mind be left naked to the lidless eye of my Master!......."

In the world of Tolkien it is always the fea that matters! Even with Men! Not to speak about Elves...though I doubt whether a Nazgul could "kill" an Elf or even a higher spirit! But who knows?!

So... I was thinking ...Why were they so "thirsty" for souls...especially those of their kin - mortals?
Could it be that for some reason they prolonged somehow their powers and existence by "devouring" souls?

But.....No!
The u