An ear of an Elf

[Lhunithiliel]

Elfs, you know, I "met" for the first time when fairytales from the Western European countries first came into my hands. And I do recall them having those funny pointed ears!

But even before that, I had read about strange creatures - usually small and usually living in the woods, and usually mischievous and ... usually with magic abilities and unfortunately usually feared by people ...
And there were others - half humans - half goats (the satyrs) ..
And then came stories from the Far East and their gods and godesses had that shocking appearance ... you know ... six arms etc. ..
And then I "met" the elf-creatures in one summer night ... in a dream, you know ;)
And I've learned about the leprechaums ...
And then came Tolkien .... and I "met" his Elves ...

And now, thinking about them all, I recall their appearance and it's interesting to note that most of these (all?) have pointed ears, too!

(see also Do Elves have pointed ears? (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FAQ/Do__Elves__have__pointed__Ears))

So .....
What is it?
A pair of pointed ears - for a creature to distinguish it from all and everything purely human and just plain ordinary? :rolleyes:

However, even nowadays people keep on making fairytales - only now the adventures take place in the open space - "Star Track" etc.

Imagine how astonished I was, while watching the screen-version of some of those new "fairytales", to find out that :

1/ creatures that came from alien races from other far worlds, from civilizations far more developed than ours - had pointed ears!

and another interesting detail, though not having directly much in common with the "pointed ears"-topic:

2/ the representatives of the supreme authorities of those highly developed civilizations are called "Valar" (actually that was the title of their rank)

Eh? What d'you say of that?!

What is it with this specific shape of the ears, that it is used to characterize a creature with unhuman powers and as a rule - much more gifted and perfect than a human?

Is it just one of those "patterns" the human mind just cannot get rid of, or ... is it sth. eldse? :rolleyes:

[Nechana]

I've been fascinated by this too. And I just came up with a little theory... You mention satyrs - they are strongly connected to forests, the places where all things fairy live. As do elves. It seems (to me) to make sense when we consider it in the context of this mythologeme: animal - forest lord - fairy creature. IMO, the leaf-shaped ears may signify a connection of the fairy beings with nature and simply be an animal feature (though an 'atrophic' one). :)

[Lhunithiliel]

It may...
But then it must've passed into a pattern to be present with all the strange creatures - non humans, that 'modern' people had already started to undertand and believe to be just imaginary and not real ones.

Yet, the shape is more or less easier to understand.

What is amazing, is that even living in 'modern' times, people still tend to 'endow' with this specific physical feature creatures of superhuman powers and what is more - most of these creatures of the modern-times-"myths" represent the powers of good, while the 'lizard-like' appearance is still held as representing the powers of evil.

[Lhunithiliel]

It may be so, but I am in fact interested not so specifically in Tolkien's Elves than in the general concept ... or as I'm calling it a 'pattern' , that whenever there's a superior and non-evil creature, it often is with pointed ears. And this is evident even in the 'modern' mythology (if one can call it so).

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, no!
I don't flatter myself too much as to think of imperssing anyone with my knowledge!

[greypilgrim]

Well, my take on it is this, picture yourself with pointy ears and try to imagine how that would feel, to have pointy ears.

Now wouldn't that make you feel smart/superior/sexy/whatever? (as opposed to having round, flappy dog ears, where you would feel stupid, ugly, and inferior)

Just a thought.

Also, when you mentioned lizard qualities, what did you mean? Scaly skin? Beady eyes? Forked tounge? Those could definately be assoc. with evilness.

[Lhunithiliel]

The knowledge doesn't count much. If your research is diligent and thorough, your results will be outstanding...
Ah, Walter! :(
It is knowledge and only it, that counts!
Showing off doesn't have any significance!

Well, my take on it is this, picture yourself with pointy ears and try to imagine how that would feel, to have pointy ears.
Well, there's one certain theory of Darwin ;) stating that we have originated from some creatures - hairy with a tail and pointed ears - in other words - beasts.
But this is not surprising. We are an animal form of existance and life of matter on this planet, so no escape from the 'animal' in us! :p

Now wouldn't that make you feel smart/superior/sexy/whatever? (as opposed to having round, flappy dog ears, where you would feel stupid, ugly, and inferior)
No need, really! :D

But on the other hand, have you looked at yourself in the mirror with the eyes of an imaginary creature from a world where nature might have organized matter in a completely different form of life? Can you imagine what monsters Pamela Anderson or Brad Pitt would appear to them? :D :D :D

Just imagine!
You'd see a more or less round form with 'sth' on the top, holes all over it, making sounds, moving, yet fixed to another 'sth'.... etc. Hahaha Scaaaaary! :D

[Barliman Butterbur]

Elfs, you know, I "met" for the first time when fairytales from the Western European countries first came into my hands. And I do recall them having those funny pointed ears!...What is it?
A pair of pointed ears - for a creature to distinguish it from all and everything purely human and just plain ordinary?...Is it just one of those "patterns" the human mind just cannot get rid of...

I thought I was going to be a smartass and find the answer with a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?q=mythology+pointed+ears&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&start=0&sa=N) (which returned a yield of about 21,500 entries) on "mythology pointed ears." I didn't find out. But I did learn that pointed ears appear in Irish, Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Norse mythologies, and perhaps more. Even more interesting was where I noticed they didn't appear: Eastern Indian, North American Indian, Central and South American Indian or Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc.) mythologies.

I thought at first that, as you tentatively concluded, that pointed ears may have indeed been an archetypal concept (one hard-wired into the human thought process), but now I'm not so sure. Or maybe it comes out in the presence of other mythological factors.

Barley

[greypilgrim]

...But on the other hand, have you looked at yourself in the mirror with the eyes of an imaginary creature from a world where nature might have organized matter in a completely different form of life?...
yeah but I was really stoned Back to the convo... The first time I ever saw pointy ears was a Peter Pan cartoon, so long ago I don't even remember when. Pointy ears signify magic, ethereal, fairy-tale life forms, and intelligence beyond human understanding. It's just always been like that.

I'm intruiged to find out the results of your quest here...I shall be keeping a close eye on it.

[Scatha]

However, even nowadays people keep on making fairytales - only now the adventures take place in the open space - "Star Track" etc.

Star Trek actually, Lhun.


Imagine how astonished I was, while watching the screen-version of some of those new "fairytales", to find out that :

1/ creatures that came from alien races from other far worlds, from civilizations far more developed than ours - had pointed ears!

No wonder, Lhun, as LOTR was published long before Star Trek was created, and not to forget that Leonard Nimoy was one of the actors that promoted the book in the US.


and another interesting detail, though not having directly much in common with the "pointed ears"-topic:

2/ the representatives of the supreme authorities of those highly developed civilizations are called "Valar" (actually that was the title of their rank)

Eh? What d'you say of that?!

I'd say the Vulcans were moderately based off the elven race, as described by Tolkien. The link I already established earlier. The large difference is that elves do not hide their feelings, while the vulcans suppressed them, to follow the ideal of logic.


What is it with this specific shape of the ears, that it is used to characterize a creature with unhuman powers and as a rule - much more gifted and perfect than a human?

Is it just one of those "patterns" the human mind just cannot get rid of, or ... is it sth. eldse? :rolleyes:

Well, here's another thought for you then:
Why do they cut off the loppy ears from a dobermann, to make them look more pointy, while their normal look would indeed be flappy ears? (As well as the tail I might add) ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Geee, Walter, I never new that you were so deeply interested in the 'pointed ears' - topic! :)

Now, true, this thread needs some beacons, for it has been a bit 'diluted' by a couple of jokes (obviously, not understood by everyone... ooops! ;) ) and a short tirade on how kids should behave while in class!

Well.... greypilgrim says:
Pointy ears signify magic, ethereal, fairy-tale life forms, and intelligence beyond human understanding. It's just always been like that.
Very well said!
And it still goes on being like that.
The purpose of this thread is to find out a possible answer to the Why? - question.

This peculiar physical feature of superhuman and most often non-evil creatures is to be noticed in the ancient mythologies of many peoples (and even in the East and the Americas, Barley. :) ).
It is, as I have already mentioned, still present in what I call 'modern-times-mythologies'.
I don't expect the latter to be disregarded or taken into consideration with mockery. Subject and ways of telling of mythical tales has changed with the course of time and our-days-myths are very different from those of the ancient peoples both - in subject and mode of telling. The visual means of communication are one of the most common ways of 'story-telling' today, so I consider it as valid as the 'story-telling-by the fire' of ancient times, together with the written form.

This said, the topic of the present thread , if presented in a graphical form should look like this:

Ancient mythologies < <____________________________ >> Modern-times mythologies

Because ... there must be a connection and a interdependence between these two! Even in such a small detail as the pointed ears! :)

From the so far posted opinions and observations, I see that probably two 'fractions' could be formed:

Fraction "A" - for Ancient mythologies
Fraction "M" - for Modern-times mythologies

So, this is my suggestion:

Both fractions start providing observations/opinions/results from research on their respective fields, tending to 'meet' each other somewhere on that line ... and then, perhaps, we can achieve finding an answer to:

"Why is it that superhuman and most often non-evil mythical creatures have pointed ears?"

Do you think it will work this way?
I hope so.

********

And I promise no more Pamela Anderson! It will be more difficult not to think of Brad, but ... we are in class, kids! Let's behave! :p :D

And Scatha, apart from being sorry for the misspelling of the title of one of the most popular 'modern-times-myhts' :o ... I was thinking about the loppy ears from a dobermann and ... Oh! Poor, poor dogies! :(

[Barliman Butterbur]

I think those man/animal creatures – with pointed ears - do appear in Mesopotamian, Indian as well as in American Indian tradition as a closer examination might show...

Well Walter, your intriguing posts got me curious, so I began with a couple of Google searches, one on pointy ears (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=pointy+ears), and one on pointed ears" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=pointed+ears), but both got me nowhere.

Then I started combining "pointed ears" with "mythology;" "survival value;" "evolution;" and still nothing conclusive. The Truth Is Out There, but I can't find it!

I have a hunch that human beings are, for some reason, under certain circumstances, archetypally hardwired to assign attributes of power (for good and/or evil) to pointed ears. That's as much as I can do at this point.

Is there anything in Tolkien's letters about why he assigned pointed ears to the non-Mannish creatures of Middle-earth?

Barley

[greypilgrim]

Well the best answer I can give is...

One; the traditional pointy ears being on supreme beings, is a myth handed down through the centuries and used in fairy tales, like people with deer heads and half man half dog bodies ("I'm a mog, half man half dog. I'm my own best friend!" ~John Candy, Spaceballs ;) ) and told to children because it WORKS. It drives the point to the listener/reader that these people are special somehow.

Two; As for the "why" question...I don't know. Why did someone talk about a lost civilization under the ocean (Atlantis) centuries ago, and still today people are searching for it. It's just something intruiging and mysterious that human beings are magnetized to. Something out of the ordinary life to think about besides paying bills, your mother in law, and fixing the car.

[Lhunithiliel]

Inkeeper, in my Google-quest ;), I tried:
- theories on pointed ears
- concept of pointed ears
- myths of pointed ears .etc.
And it does give back some data of 'pointed ears-creatures' in almost all cultures.

Well, may be "I am looking for something I can't find" (J.R.R.Tolkien), but it's so tempting!

And Walter, that schollar from your story, should've tasted these two apples to find out that one was a green one and the other a ripe one. ;)

[Barliman Butterbur]

...data of 'pointed ears-creatures' in almost all cultures.


Then it points (no pun intended;)) to something genetic, for my money: something about the human brain/mind attributing weird properties to pointed ears for some reason. That's what I'm trying to get at, and straight Google searches don't offer much headway (and I'm not willing to go to a library and do hard research — it just ain't worth it to me). I'd rather just sit here in the Pony and knock back a few mugs of Proper 1420!:D

Barley

[Lhunithiliel]

Asking the right questions is always important when one is trying to find out something...An issue has many sides! ;)

You think that tasting the apple would have brought him any closer to the answer of the question he was asking: "why are the apples gray"? ;)

Besides, the green apple he had, say a Granny Smith (http://www.obst-gemuese.at/images/product/imgbig/granny.jpg) doesn't taste all that different from the red apple he had, say a Gloster (http://www.obst-gemuese.at/images/product/imgbig/gloster.jpg)
At least, he would've been sure those were apples!
Besides, he would've enjoyed the taste! ;)

[Barliman Butterbur]

An issue has many sides! ;)


At least, he would've been sure those were apples!
Besides, he would've enjoyed the taste! ;)

Whatever the case, I'm sure you'll all get to the core of the matter, har har har!:D

Barley