Concerning women

[gil-estel]

During the build-up to FoTR, all we ever heard about was the lack of "female strong characters".......


Why did the part of galadriel get a severe hacking then-she just seemed slightly potty, a little bit scary but not the most powerful elf on the planet-he didn't even mention the Ring of Adamant!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Grond]

Ahhh but the two main elements in Hollywood film making are sex and violence. We get plenty of the latter from the natural course of the book, but alas, in order for the love story to develop, the status of Arwen must be increased and Liv Tyler ain't up to no rivals.

I think the whole Arwen (+) and the Galadriel (-) thing is an abomination to the spirit of the author. That same spirit that PJ holds so sacrosanct. But, except for those two horrendous changes, I thought the movie was good and well made; however, I thought the screenplay sucked. But that's just me. ;)

[ReadWryt]

I've mentioned elsewhere that I suspect that New Line Cinema hacked a lot of Galadriel out of the movie to fit the time constraint. Jackson does not have the final say in matters of the final edit of the film...

[Dimwit]

I didn't like the screenplay much either. But anyway, Cate Blanchett did a nice performance as Galadriel, even though it was only for 10 minutes. I don't think there are a lack of strong-women characters in the film. They just don't get shown much.

[Arwen]

Galadriel looked great in the movie, i thought she was very powerfull in the movie...she was very very scarey.Galadriel looks very powerful magic wise...but Arwen is more powerful strength wise...and a bit of magic too.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Arwen
Galadriel looked great in the movie, i thought she was very powerfull in the movie...she was very very scarey.Galadriel looks very powerful magic wise...but Arwen is more powerful strength wise...and a bit of magic too.


:rolleyes: Arwen, you are letting PJ's changes influence your Tolkien knowledge. Arwen cannot even compare to Galadriel. You honestly cannot make that judgement call from watching the movie. PJ's Arwen "saves the day", defying the riders on her steed, and Galadriel sits and talks to Frodo and gets a little shining and ugly at him. I guess it would look like Arwen is more powerful. Let me tell you a bit about Galadriel from other Tolkien books that I hope you will someday read, they are great!

Galadriel is over 8500 years old. Her father was Finarfin, one of the elven lords, her Grandfather was Finwe who if not was, was close to being one of the firstborn elves and who established the race of the Noldor. She went to Valinor, the Blessed Realm, the home of the Valar and was part of the rebellion with her uncle Feanor (who created the Silmarils and the Palantir). She was the most noble out of all the female elves and is the remnant of the glory days of the elves of old.

Never mind, Harad's comment about Galadriel kicking butt on Arwen. You can't even begin to set up a fight between them. Arwen, you are living proof as to why I am so against PJ's movies to someone who is not familiar with Tolkien. So many people are judging the books and their characters from what they see on the screen! Please read all the books!

[Arwen]

Geez calm down here.........and dont say things like "people like YOU" too me...and make it sound like im some sort of freak of nature or something.
DID I SAY ARWEN WOULD KICK GALADRIELS BUTT.....NO...so why is this coming up, im not the one that tunred this into a war between the characters, all i said was if they were both to go into battle, i could see Galdriel fighting with magic rather than using a sword....thats all.
But i guess my comment wont matter becuase im not part of the whole "i have read all the books 50 times" team am i.As you can see this is the movie forum and im tlaking about the characters in the MOVIE...there is a book vs movie forum in the index of this site so if all your gonna do is keep refering to things which dont even matter in this board then dont compalin to me.

[Asfaloth]

gil-estel: The Ring of Adamant wasn't mentioned but it *was* shown if you're watching for it. (Mind you, it didn't appear to be set with a white gem.) You see her wearing it in the prologue when the Three are introduced, and you see it on her finger again when the Fellowship is leaving Lorien -- Frodo looks at her where she stands on the bank with hand upraised, and you can see the ring.

[Arwen]

Originally posted by Harad
Arwen,

My goal is to inject some humor into these otherwise humorless types. I think you understood when I joked about Galadriel vs. Arwen, even if Thorin didnt. Arwen and Galadriel are on the same side last I checked.

Yeah i know...i was just making a point about the way everyone took the Galadriel vs Arwen :)

[Grond]

I completely agree with Arwen. In the movie, I would have to give a heads up to Arwen in the more athletic sense and Galadriel would win on the inner-power side.

I thought both were cast fine. I admire Liv Tyler's portrayal, just nor her character's enhanced role. I think Cate would have been even more awe inspiring had not most of the scenes from Lorien been cut. But, they had to make a choice for time, and I guess Lorien was deemed the least important.

[Arwen]

Originally posted by Grond
I completely agree with Arwen. In the movie, I would have to give a heads up to Arwen in the more athletic sense and Galadriel would win on the inner-power side.

I thought both were cast fine. I admire Liv Tyler's portrayal, just nor her character's enhanced role. I think Cate would have been even more awe inspiring had not most of the scenes from Lorien been cut. But, they had to make a choice for time, and I guess Lorien was deemed the least important.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?......oh thank god....sorry people that agree with me happens very rarley on this forum.

[ReadWryt]

Wait, did I miss something here...because Grond just said he didn't agree with Arwen's expanded role in the movie, but did like the casting and the acting of her character...Is that what Arwen the Member has been trying to say all along as well?

[Greymantle]

I think Grond was agreeing with Arwen the Member's statement on this thread that Arwen Undomiel's role in the movie was a strong one in terms of physical prowess, while Galadriel's strengths lay elsewhere.

[Grond]

I will let Arwen speak for herself. I was conveying exactly what you said, ReadWryt. Love the actresses and the way they played their characters given the script they had to work with. That's it.

And, yes, Arwen.... I was agreeing with you!!

[Greymantle]

For once we agree, Harad. Grond was indeed agreeing with Grond; much as Greymantle occasionally agrees with things Greymantle said, but not with things he might not have said, if he agreed. Or not.

[Aerin]

I don't know if it's scarier that Grond and Greymantle agree with what they said... or if they agree with what they didn't say! :D

[Grond]

Heck... now I'm confused. Please don't tell me I just joined the PJ fan club......:)

[Arwen]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
Wait, did I miss something here...because Grond just said he didn't agree with Arwen's expanded role in the movie, but did like the casting and the acting of her character...Is that what Arwen the Member has been trying to say all along as well?

Yes thats what i was happy about...i knew what he was saying.

[Elven Maiden]

I think that they DID cut a lot of Galadriel out of the movie to fit the time restraing because I saw pictures online with the movie shots and a lot of them I hadn't seen before of Galadriel and Lothlorien

And Arwen and Grond? I agree with you too :)

[Tar-Steve]

I disagree to agree with any of this ... to a degree.

[Mithiril]

Re: strong women characters

Don't forget we (hopefully) have Eowyn to look forward to in the other movies...I always thought her role was pretty cool. Defying the cultural/family expectations to do what her soul begged to do: be a warrior. And the whole end of the Witch King scene is awesome. I hope they don't hack up her character like they did Galadriel's.

[Grond]

I will be interested to know in the movies to come how Arwen and Eowyn play off of each other, if at all. It will also bear on my overall perception of the movie if Arwen actually outdoes or even holds her own with the true warrior spirit of Eowyn.

[safari]

no one has mentioned the rise and rise of Rosie in the film. in the book it is a shock that sam submits to her proposal for marrage, which seems to come out of the blue. yet there is sam longing for her at the begining...

one also has to ask with so much parentage being detailed why are so few of the charactors married or have close female partners... the list of the unmarried at the end of the novel is amazing... even pippin and merry don't manage to find hobbit wives! :eek:


i suppose sam has to marry after the things he says to Frodo along the way... about love and never leaving him, but frodo never marries but instead asks sam to live with him... interesting.

i do hope many of the men of gondor marry, other wise our own existance is in question.;)

[proudfoot]

Tolkien's Oxford was a very Male place. Most of the Dons weren't married. Many weren't allowed to marry whilst they kept their jobs. And many of them had been brought up in single sex prep and boarding schools before going on to single-sex colleges. Co-ed was not big in Britain before the 60s.

It will be very interesting to see how "new" Arwen is brought into the rest of the Trilogy of films. I'm glad that Eowyn is still in it, as when I saw "warrior" Arwen, I thought this was a preparation for her taking Eowyn's place. I expect Arwen will have a couple of other brief in-and-out appearances.

As for Arwen v Galadriel. I think it would be rather one sided, since Galadriel apparently has the power to throw down city walls! Arwen reduced to small pile of ash, I think.

:)

Now Arwen v Eowyn.....

[TheJospeh]

Thorin,

I agree with your point about the movies distorting characters. The idea that Arwen could mess with her Grandma doesn't even translate into sense. And that is the very problem. Tolkien was a genius, and not simply for his writing. He understood that the spiritual and physical aren't the diametrically opposed concepts popular Western culture thinks them to be. The Elves don't use magic. It's all natural and their power stems from the unity of spirit (soul or whatever you want to call it) and their bodies.

I don't suppose there are any philosophy majors here wanting to get all freaky with me? Go Eastern Mysticism!

Anyway, when I say Peter Jackson didn't understand the book this is what I am talking about. There is a tightly created philosophy behind every action of every character in the novel. Without understanding the philosophy behind the story you can't make changes to the characters and keep the changes consistent with the philosophy. As a direct result you have a novel about the evils of commercialism and the double-edged sword of technological advancement and a movie promoting the leap! leap! leaping! ever forward toward further technological advancement without considering the consequences of America.

And Arwen (the board poster), Thorin has every right to say "people like you". It's not offensive at all. If you haven't read the book you are ignorant of what is within it. I--for example--am ignorant of what is within the 2nd and onward Harry Potter books. As a result I don't criticize those books. And I'm not saying you were criticizing "the Lord of the Rings". I'm simply saying Thorin has a right to say, "People like you who haven't read the book will by necessity have a distorted impression of Tolkien's work."

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[Grond]

I'm almost certain if you read into the Appendix of RotK, you'll find that both Merry and Pippin married because I'm almost certain that I remember the Faramir Took married Goldilocks? Gamgee. Something to that effect. I haven't looked it up. Someone tell me if that sounds right.:)

[safari]

my apologies on that merry and pippen.... your right, i forgot the tail end of the time line in the appendix, well called grond!

oh good news Harad your back up to your 37 postings a day average! (how do you find the time?) :)

for the others sake I'll put into proper context what harad is referencing, i said that sam's love for frodo, in the main text, is written as other english authors wrote homosexual relationships in literary works from the turn of the century to the 60s. i never said that jrrt was gay though as pointed out in this strand the whole academic thing was very male (and a major gay spy scandal happened at oxford at one point in the 1950s). it was pointed out that another interpretation of sams touching of frodo as well as declarations of love and that beautiful moment in rotk when same hugs frodo (who is naked) and wants the moment of perfect bliss to last for ever, is that it is a typical adolescent (homosexual) longing and "puppy love" that with some lasts a life time with some is never consummated (sexually) but that feeling lives for their lives. btw i don't buy the argument if someone marries they can't have homosexual tendancies - oscar wilde was married.

personally I'm looking forward to Eowyn, and how they portray her, and her love interest in strider.

[TheJospeh]

Let me tell you about a man named Hemingway. He's an author, as I'm sure you actually do know. Read him! Male bonding or male friendships have only reduced to gruff exchanges over beers in the bar. This is a backlash from an anti-gay sentiment that pervades the masses. Men can be totally hetero-sexual and love each other. They can have friendships that transcend even their marriages in intellectual and spiritual intimacy. I for one think the lose of men relating to each other in this way is a travesty. I hate how pop-culture has lessened the male spirit and mind to carring only about beer and sex. It is disgusting. And before anyone gets angry, yes, I know there are authors around today--many of them I'm sure--who don't fall into this narrow-minded pit.

You need a lot more evidence to suggest something gay between Sam and Frodo. A LOT more.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[safari]

The Joseph u left out sport,!:rolleyes: !

i agree and its interesting how this has come into being. when i get my set of lotr back i'll sit down and point out the passages i'm refering too (yep reading 6 is about to happen!) and i'll start a new thread.. it will take a week or so as i'm also employed.

do you think jrrt wrote the four hobbits as adolescents? this would make scence of their behaviour towards the few women in the book and of their interactions with eachother.

still i wish there were more women charactors or at least mentions of women, but jrrt had a better understanding of early medieval history than i do and thats the basis of much tlotr background.

its nice to see sincerely at the bottom of your posting than some of the other "greetings" i've been given!

faithfully.

safari

[TheJospeh]

Hmmmmm,

Well if there coming of age is at 33 we can fairly enough relate that to about 18-20 in human years. Since he calls the twenties of the Hobbits the tweens, a clear play on the word teen.

So Merry and Pipin are twenty-something I think...so they would be teenagers. However, Frodo is a grown man. 51 or 52 I think.

Yeah, sports, I did forget that. It's a big one! :))

Sincerely,
The Joseph

P.S. J.R.R. Tolkien seems to be a very respectful and proper person. My theory on why he refrained from anything overtly sexual involving women or men is because he didn't think it was appropriate. He didn't want to "show" all that sort of thing.

[Greenwood]

Reading a number of the recent posts in this thread makes me understand even more than before why Tolkien put a disclaimer in later editions of LOTR that people shouldn't read anything into it!! :) :)

[TheJospeh]

You've sucessfully attacked some other people who just want to share their ideas. You didn't attack them with any arguments you just tried to make them feel bad, making them that much more hesitant to post. Keep up the good work!

Insincerely,
The Joseph

[Grond]

Hey Mr. TheJoseph, I have finally found someone who ranks the award of most opinionated on the board. Unfortunately, most of your opinions are looked upon with disdain by most of your compatriots on the forum.

As for you safari, first and foremost, welcome to the board. Your opinions inidicate you are reading the works from a perspective of "looking for something that a'int there." Sam, Merry and Pippin all marry, as does, Aragorn and Faramir. It later details that Eomer marries Prince Imrahil's daughter and Frodo didn't marry because he had foreknowledge that his time was short. Read the last two chapters again and you'll see it.... if you're looking for it. If you're looking for homosexual relationships, I'm sure you can find them. I'm sure that Elrond forced his wife to leave for Valinor because he had a "crush" on Glorfindel and as for Gimli and Legolas....well, you just go girlfriend.:rolleyes:

[TheJospeh]

You do yourself too much credit.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[markrob]

Originally posted by Grond
. I'm sure that Elrond forced his wife to leave for Valinor because he had a "crush" on Glorfindel and as for Gimli and Legolas....well, you just go girlfriend.:rolleyes:

I like that.

[Grond]

Originally posted by TheJospeh
You do yourself too much credit.

Sincerely,
The Joseph Ahhhh.... alas, your statement is too true. You have no compatriots on the board. Does that make you a pariah or just an over-opinionated member?:)

[Ganfromir]

Hello!

Well i'm sure that Sam and Frodo aren't gay (the former fathers enough children!).
However, what i'm going to be intrigued by is whether Jackson will have the guts to show the pair of them holding hands as they walk through Mordor!
It really helps in the book, which at the simple level can be looked at as a 'boy's own' novel (don't hold me to this - but excitable 12 yr olds!). Facing the evil of the Darkness, the hand-holding shows that they are determined to help each other to the end. And helps to somewhat explain how Sam could 'block out' the lust for the ring.

Anyway, they're not gay.

Just not promiscuous!

[Eowyn]

Well, I don't think Frodo and Sam are gay, I think it's a case of hero worship!!. Frodo is an adult, Pippin and Merry are younger cousins, but I don't remember reading anything about Sam's age, though I always put him in P and M age group, so being a youngster, looking up to Frodo and Bilbo, and having been told by Gandalf himself to ' take care' of Frodo, it's not strange that he takes a shine on him, a gardener among so mighty people.

[Tuk Took]

The imbalance of female/male characters reflects the "boys' own adventre genre", and the male dominated halls of Oxford circa 1940. Despite this, the representation of Arwen and Galadriel transcends the stereotyped female roles of that era. It was only in WW2 that women entered the workforce in great numbers, escaping the imprisonment of "home making". It will be interesting if PJ champions Eowyn's plight which expresses this very torment in her character.

As for Sam and Frodo, well the hobbits may have been less hung up about their sexuality than modern day western society! TheJoseph laments the lost of male:male bonding options, and the posts of those who can't contemplate a gay nuance to this relationship bear this loss. In all the diversity of relationships, why can't Sam love Frodo in all the deeply, heart felt way that a hobbit can for another hobbit (male or female). Frodo accepts that Sam loves him. It doesn't violate the relationship Sam has with Rosie later in life, nor should it be diminished as some kind of "hero worship". Neither should the difference in age be an impediment to loving.

Gay and straight relationships (and all the types in between) are based on love, and loving another person (or hobbit). :rolleyes:

[Grond]

Tuk Took, welcome to our forum.

As for your comments..... I fully agree!:)

[safari]

found this-

http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots/Book3_Chapter07.htm#VII

which seems to be the start of a bigger controversy here!

i hope they are wrong:confused:

[Flame of Utumno]

If you read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales you find out that Galadriel is such an important character to Tolkien and his mythology.
She is also meant to be extremely beautiful and her hair should have been much more golden.
However, I still think the film was wonderful, and Arwen was very beautiful so I guess I can't complain.

[Celebrimbor]

Was anyone else concerned about the lack of mention about the Ring of Adamant? They show Galadriel wearing it in the very opening, but they don't even speak of it again. I think they should've explained a bit more about what will happen to the Elves when the One is destroyed. Any thoughts?

[Greenwood]

Celebrimbor

I suspect it is on "the cutting room floor". Perhaps we will hear more in the eventual DVD version.

I can certainly understand your concern over your creations being slighted. :)

[aragil]

Originally posted by Celebrimbor
Was anyone else concerned about the lack of mention about the Ring of Adamant? They show Galadriel wearing it in the very opening, but they don't even speak of it again. I think they should've explained a bit more about what will happen to the Elves when the One is destroyed. Any thoughts?

Galadriel telepaths to Frodo that 'your coming is like the foot-fall of doom to us', or something like that right when Frodo enters Lothlorien, right after Gimli mentions that an Elvish witch lives there. Then, late in the mirror scene, she tells Frodo that to be a ring bearer is to be alone. The simpathetic way in which she says this left no doubt in my mind that she was saying this because she was a ring bearer and she felt alone. Finally, when the fellowship is leaving in their canoes, Galadriel is shown on the bank, and she lifts up her hand and displays that it has a ring on it.
That being said, I'm sure (like Greenwood) that there was more cut out in the final edit.

[Celebrimbor]

Good call aragil. I must've missed it on her hand when she waved. Oh well, time for a fifth viewing I guess, darn. ;)

[Flame of Utumno]

Did anyone catch Gandalf or Elrond wearing their respective rings? (I've seen the movie four times, but I'm still not sure whether I saw them wearing their rings)...

[Greenwood]

You should not see Gandalf wearing a ring. If I remember correctly, it is not until near the end of LOTR that it is revealed that Gandalf had one of the elven rings. Also, in the case of Galadriel, only Frodo was aware of her ring and that is because he is a fellow ringbearer. I seem to remember she asks Sam if he saw here ring and he says no, only a star shining through her outstretched hand when she holds it up to the sky.