Understanding Tolkien's races

[Turgon]

Could this issue have anything to do with Tolkien's growing maturity as a man and a writer? It's not unusual for a young man of sheltered upbringing to harbour certain fantasies about fairy folk, nor to feel a certain embarassment about these fantasies as his thoughts begin to deepen. Tolkien seems fervently against the diminutive fairy types later on his life, perhaps too much so. That is suggestive of something... though perhaps I'm wide of the mark here.

Other than that it seems that the very nature of The Silmarillion was leading Tolkien away from the more frivolous fairy to something much deeper. I guess on a very basic level a 'Germanic' elf was needed for the tale. The Celtic myths had become so diluted (in England at least - the Victorian fairy craze!?!) that I guess they had become impracticle for what Tolkien was doing with his mythology.

[Ancalagon]

Though my own knowledge of Elves as described in The Edda is sketchy to say the least, the relevance of 'light-Elves' who were just lesser than the Gods, who were 'fairer than the Sun to look upon', seems to most closely resemble Tolkien own interpretation of the Elvish character.

There is a defining semblance in the two, that Tolkiens Elves also love the light, were fair and lovely to beholdThe Edda mentions another class of beings, inferior to the gods, but still possessed of great power; these were the Elves. The white spirits, or Elves of Light, were exceedingly fair, more brilliant that the sun, and clad in garments of a delicate and transparent texture. They loved the light, were kindly disposed to mankind, and generally appeared as fair and lovely children. Their country was called Elfheim, and was the domain of Freyr, in whose sunlight they always sported. The Golden Age of Myth and Legend, Thomas Bulfinch

I do not know enough as I have said, about the Norse Edda or any great detail about the Elves mentioned therein, but that which I have read does bear a striking resemblance to Tolkiens Eldar. Possibly, if someone has more detail they could add it here as I would be keen to learn more on the subject.

[Thorunn]

Edda origin is Icelandic written by Snorri Sturluson born 1179 and it is written somewere that Tolkien spoke Icelandic, it´s nice to think that maybe he did read that book in Icelandic.

[Ancalagon]

Thank-you Thorunn, I am aware of the origin, and might I add that you have a truly wonderful legendarium in Iceland all your very own. It is the fine detail that intrigues me, the basis of the mythology itself, the origin of Icelandic Elvish tradition, their relationship to the Gods and where Tolkien derives such fantastical detail for his own mythology.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I have always wondered about the "roots" of Tolkien's races. Of course, he has elucidated some: elves represent the highest epitome of men while hobbits represent the best (and the worst) of stolid, ordinary Englishmen, but given the man's classical background, might, for instance, the dwarves with their beards, their love for gold and wealth, their clannish xenophobia and the fact that one only meets their menfolk because their women are kept away from all but their own kind represent a typical medieval view of the Jews?

Even though Tolkien has taken various races and creatures from myth and legend, yet even these have as their foundation the beings of this world since their authors had no other points of reference.

I firmly believe that an understanding of the underlying foundation of each race and/or creature would further an understanding of the tales themselves.

[Lhunithiliel]

I have developed an understanding that Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves and ... why!!!... even wraiths :p - are all just personifications of the different 'faces' of the human nature.

[Manveru]

well done, wraith

*angelic smile*

[Mrs. Maggott]

That is so, certainly. But there can be no doubt that various ethnic and racial groups have certain "characteristics" by which many people come to recognize that group. Italians are considered out going, the Irish belligerant, the English "low key", the French care-free, the Spanish hot tempered, the Germans orderly and so forth. Of course, these are doubtless stereotypes - but stereotypes with a certain amount of truth behind them. I don't think anyone would mistake a German for a Frenchman or an Italian for a Swede and not merely because of their physical characteristics.

Certainly, Tolkien indicated that the physical characteristics he bestowed upon his orcs were directly related to certain Asiatic tribes who were known for their fierce and bloodthirsty behavior. The elves physical beauty must be considered as being "classic" in nature and certainly in regard to the "ideal" of physical beauty which is limited to Caucasians. Of course, this is understandable given Tolkien's age and the culture in which he grew up. During his youth and in Western European culture, there can be no doubt that the standard of perfection was in fact "white" and not just "white", but certain nationalities among whites. Arabs and other darker skinned Caucasians do not find themselves included in the Elvish standard of perfection.

Does this make Tolkien - as some have suggested - a "racist"? Certainly not! Some of the very worst people in his tales are from the very best "racial" groups. I don't know of anyone who would champion Feanor as a model of perfection! But our present social conceptions of both "diversity" and "political correctness" simply did not exist in Tolkien's world and those who attempt to force his tales into those concepts are doomed to disappointment and failure.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I did not wish to deviate from the topic. I merely brought this up as a possible study for the Guild as a means of developing a deeper understanding of the works. Having read some remarks by Tolkien (I'm not sure where) that his orcs - at least physicially - were modeled on certain Asiatic "barbarians", I knew that he in fact did have certain actual human "types" in the modeling of his races and I thought it might be interesting as a Guild to study the matter in some depth.

If you wish to open a thread either here or in the Guild for comments on the matter, I have no objection. Indeed, that was the purpose of the thought. And, of course, it is lovely to "speak" with you again as well. :p

God bless and have a wonderful Labor Day weekend.

[Inderjit S]

Mrs. Maggot-I discussed with the whole racism issue in the following post, some time ago, check if out if you want.

Beauty Is Crooked In The Eye Of The Beholder (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=13718&highlight=Tal-Elmar)

Racism In Tolkien (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=9795&highlight=Tal-Elmar)

Also, whilst we are talking about Tolkien's (non-existent) racism, why is D.H Lawrence so tolerated, when he harboured racist views, and other artists such as the composer Wagner, who was a German nationalist? But then again, German nationalism was not rare in his day and age.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Mrs. Maggot-I discussed with the whole racism issue in the following post, some time ago, check if out if you want.

Beauty Is Crooked In The Eye Of The Beholder (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=13718&highlight=Tal-Elmar)

Racism In Tolkien (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=9795&highlight=Tal-Elmar)

Also, whilst we are talking about Tolkien's (non-existent) racism, why is D.H Lawrence so tolerated, when he harboured racist views, and other artists such as the composer Wagner, who was a German nationalist? But then again, German nationalism was not rare in his day and age.
Oh dear, oh dear! I sincerely hope that no one attributed to me the belief that Tolkien was a "racist". He was, however, a man of his time and also a classic scholar wherein many different nationalities and peoples were considered to exhibit certain characteristics. There can be no doubt that the dwarves exhibit many of the characteristics that classicists attributed to the Jews including certain physical and social characteristics (pervasive wearing of beards and the exclusion of dwarf/Jewish women from interaction with non-dwarves/Jews). I find it interesting to consider where Tolkien got his inspiration for his various races and as I am not "native" to today's "politically correct" culture - having, fortunately, grown up before it was established - I do not find the author's usages in any way bigoted or racist.

I only wanted to discuss the issue for the sake of a better understanding of the construction of his various racial/ethnic groups within the larger framework of his myths and not to once again bring up (for the umpteeth time) the argument that Tolkien was/was not a racist. :(

[Barliman Butterbur]

There can be no doubt that the dwarves exhibit many of the characteristics that classicists attributed to the Jews including certain physical and social characteristics (pervasive wearing of beards and the exclusion of dwarf/Jewish women from interaction with non-dwarves/Jews).

Just who are these "classicists" you speak of? They sound like people who conveniently lump groups into stereotypes. You are speaking of the ultra-orthodox, which comprise a very small minority of all Jews. I daresay I could put you in a room full of Jews whose looks you would never identify as Jewish. Your thinking makes my gorge rise at times, M.

...I am not "native" to today's "politically correct" culture

You can say that again!

Barley

[Arvedui]

I have now split this topic away from the original thread Guild of Tolkienology. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=16223) Hopefully, the conversation may go on unpolluted from here.

[Inderjit S]

Oh dear, oh dear! I sincerely hope that no one attributed to me the belief that Tolkien was a "racist".

Not really no, I stated that he was not a racist, but the topic was about Tolkien's treatment of races, and so I was continuing the discussion by adding a link to two similar discussions I had initiated previously.

Just who are these "classicists" you speak of

We are now in the age of antiquity (at least literature wise) in which Jews were reviled by Christian and anti-Semitism was widespread, albeit more widespread in some places then others. (For two main reasons-Jews were stereotyped as being "rich" hence the appearance of moneylenders such as the perfidious Shylock in 'The Merchant of Venice' and the rich Jewish merchant from Antony Trollope's 'The Way We Live Now' "As rich as a Jew was an old cliché", and they also hated Jews for theological reasons i.e. The Jews rejected Christ as the son of god.)

By old classicists, Mrs. Maggot may be referring to someone like Isaac from the novel 'Ivanhoe' by Sir Walter Scott, in which he is described pretty much as Mrs. Maggot describes the stereotypical Jew.

There can be no doubt that the dwarves exhibit many of the characteristics that classicists attributed to the Jews including certain physical and social characteristics (pervasive wearing of beards and the exclusion of dwarf/Jewish women from interaction with non-dwarves/Jews)

You forget money hoarding. And they weren't that bad. Although they did treat their women-folk with harshness it was to help them cope with the way of the world-and if any of their women were insulted or injured then the males took it as a great injury-greater then one done to themselves. I'm talking about the Dwarves here, by the way. ;) (Quote from HoME 12)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Just who are these "classicists" you speak of? They sound like people who conveniently lump groups into stereotypes. You are speaking of the ultra-orthodox, which comprise a very small minority of all Jews. I daresay I could put you in a room full of Jews whose looks you would never identify as Jewish. Your thinking makes my gorge rise at times, M.

Barley
Dear B.

Please go and read Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice for I assume you have never done so given your comment above. What I am speaking of has nothing to do with "my thinking" but with my OBSERVATIONS of what the "classicists" of Tolkien's time - and before - thought. There's no sense in getting angry with me unless you wish to pretend that nobody every thought anything about anything until our present culture! However, I suggest then that you don't visit any museums exhibiting art of past ages or read any books before the 1990s for if you do so, you may get a rude awakening to discover that people actually did have opinions and observations that don't fit into your nice little philosophy.

However, I would beg you to separate your annoyance with what those people believed, thought and did from those who comment upon those beliefs, thoughts and actions - unless, of course, you actually believe that someone who writes a biography of Hitler is necessarily a Nazi. It is, I suppose, an interesting concept - if altogether wrong.

[Inderjit S]

Walter-you know a lot about Germanic, Scandinavian legends etc.

It would be nice if you gave us some ideas on where Tolkien may have obtained the idea of Elves from-or any other race.

[Gothmog]

The Forum "Annals of the Eldanyárë" is for discussion about matters pertaining to Tolkien and his works. The argument I had to clear from this thread had no place in here. Please keep future posts to the point of applicability or non-applicability to Tolkien and/or his books.

In line with Walters excellent suggestion, I have renamed this thread.

If anyone wishes to continue with the argument removed from this thread it can be found in "The Forsaken Inn" under the title MisUnderstanding races (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=16291)

[Ciryaher]

(copied from the thread which I mistakenly posted in)

I don't think Tolkien himself used stereotypes, especially as far as the Jew-Dwarf idea is concerned. His perspective of them seems to come very much, if not entirely, from the Norse mythos. I don't think the Norse knew enough about Jews to make stereotypes about them (as in they hadn't ever seen them, and probably wouldn't have recognized them...everyone's the same when you're killing, looting, and pillaging).

Elves apparently describe what humans aspire to be (eternally-alive, strong) but appearances are often deceiving. With eternal life and great strength came apathy and corruption, which can be viewed as an analogy to what would happen to people with this power.

Numenoreans are also, apparently, a view on humans trying to achieve the status of the elves, as well as the downfall of such a path.

If anything, Tolkien used the Hobbits to show that the best way for people to live happily was not to struggle for power, but to live a simple life and keep friends and family close.

Thus, I believe the issue is not so much race as it is culture.

--------------------------- (from the second post)

I have stated that I believe that culture and philosophy were used by Tolkien to be represented in the different races. I will continue with that and say that I believe Dwarves are the representation of xenophobic humans. When a people begins to recede inward, they begin to die despite their effort to do otherwise. Society eventually stagnates, and the population dwindles. Dwarves are similar to Numenoreans in this analyses, in that their greed for power (wealth, in the case of the dwarves; life in the case of Numenoreans) was their ultimate demise. Dwarves were too concerned with wealth to marry in large enough numbers to keep the population up, thus they eventually dwindled to basically nothing.

[Turgon]

Just to play devil's advocate.

From a letter to Naomi Mitchison, 8 December 1955.

I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.....

I found this little quote as I was flicking though Tolkien's letters the other day, it may be pertinent to the discussion, but then again it may not.

I lost track of this thread way back when.

[Lhunithiliel]

Strange....
I haven't related the Jews to Tolkien's Dwarves .... but maybe there's sth. true in this. Besides, now that Turgon quoted that line from the letters, who can say "no" to such a comparison when Tolkien himself admits it! ;)

But maybe it isn't all that strange! Elves of ME "came" from the Germanic tales, and from the few 'glimpses' into those myths, ME-Dwarves - too.
Could those Germanic Dwarves[/i] in fact be a reflection of some general conception of the old Germanic peoples to the peoples from the South-East - peoples, who came with high culture, knowledge, wealth and ... unwilling to 'share' it too easily with the 'barbarians' from the North, but rather 'sell' it to them - just so normal for the worlds they had come from where trade and payment had been developed long before; peoples - looking very different from the Northern race (and if I'm not mistaken - much shorter in stature); peoples who, out of respect rather than anything else, didn't show off the exotic beauty of their women >> hence the myht they had no women ... or if there were any - those should've been very ugly to look upon ...
Basically, the Dwarves from the germanic tales and from there - into ME, to me seem as the 'picture' the Northern peoples had in ancient times about the peoples from the South-East.

But Tolkien, IMO, added to that 'picture, by endowing all the races of his fantasy worlds with a lot of .... in fact , all most human features.

He used those different creatures in two ways, as I see it: one - to make the world he created a truly fantastic place as any mythical world should be; and two - to project onto these races what we - humans, are in all the diversity of the human character.

Based on this, I personally think I can understand his choice of the Germanic Elves instead of the little mischivous English fairies.

[Osric]

Strange....
I haven't related the Jews to Tolkien's Dwarves .... but maybe there's sth. true in this. Besides, now that Turgon quoted that line from the letters, who can say "no" to such a comparison when Tolkien himself admits it! ;)Yeah I remember that, now.

The less appealing side of the Dwarves' nature -- their lust for gold and especially, in the First Age, the Nauglamir containing the Silmaril -- is also particularly close to the character of Alberich in Wagner's Nibelungleid (sp?). IIRC Alberich was widely considered to represent Wagner's distasteful concept of Jewish character.

Didn't Tolkien also say that the Dwarves' secret language of Khuzdul was (was intended to sound?) vaguely Hebraic?
I believe the tri-consonantal pattern -- e.g. KZD for words to do with dwarves themselves -- is also based on Hebrew. No doubt people here can confirm or correct that... ;_
But then ISTR that Adunaic, the language of Numenor best known to us in the names of the later Kings, was also intended to sound Semitic if not specifically Hebraic.


[...] his choice of the Germanic Elves instead of the little mischievous English fairies.I'm sure this is what you meant, but to be clear: Tolkien did believe the Elves of Faerie were like the Irish Sidhe: (the Tuatha de Danaan) and the Mediaeval Germanic conception of the Light Elves. He not only didn't choose to follow, but cordially disliked and deliberately chose to correct the later Victorian English drift towards depicting the Fair Folk as diminutive winged fairies.

I believe the small size and addition of wings is a misconception derived from the association with beings of the spirit world which are so elusive they can never be seen or touched. It's a bit like the way pointy ears were a carry-over from animal masks representing other spirits. Practically everything otherworldly is glommed together in the concept of the 'historical' Elves.

Cheers,
--Os.

[Lhunithiliel]

The less appealing side of the Dwarves' nature -- their lust for gold and especially, in the First Age, the Nauglamir containing the Silmaril -- is also particularly close to the character of Alberich in Wagner's Nibelungleid (sp?). IIRC Alberich was widely considered to represent Wagner's distasteful concept of Jewish character.
Well .... some Elves demonstrated no less greed than the Dwarves! Not to mention Men! Or ... Dragons! ;)
This is why I so much believe and ... sort of feel comfortable with the thought that the races of ME - all are we, only - each part of this 'us' being presented separately.


I'm sure this is what you meant, but to be clear: Tolkien did believe the Elves of Faerie were like the Irish Sidhe: (the Tuatha de Danaan) and the Mediaeval Germanic conception of the Light Elves. He not only didn't choose to follow, but cordially disliked and deliberately chose to correct the later Victorian English drift towards depicting the Fair Folk as diminutive winged fairies.
Granted! :)
I don't know too much about Tuatha de Danaan ... Maybe one day I shall come to those tales as well. :)