Mythological creatures in Tolkien's universe

[Ithrynluin]

Tolkien's world certainly contains many creatures that may be called 'unreal', but there are zounds more of these to be found in the mythologies of different cultures.

What of the griffin (http://www.goldenland-rpg.com/image/griffin.jpg), the unicorn (http://www.ruthsanderson.com/prints/unicorn.jpg), the centaur (http://www.booksbywrfarrell.com/centaur.gif), the pegasus (http://www.equinealley.furtopia.org/pegasus.jpg), the sprite (http://www.imagineer.co.jp/pc/products/hero3/image/n-sprite.jpg) and loads more?

Do we get any insight into the professor's thought process regarding this?

Did he even give especial thought to which of these fantasy creatures would grace his stories and which not?

Perhaps many of these, like the griffin, boast too extravagant and flamboyant characteristics and features, and are not very fitting for Tolkien's creation, where most things and concepts seem subtle and wonderfully worked out.

On the other hand, a creature like the unicorn does not seem over-done at all, and is graceful enough for us to be able to imagine it as part of Middle-earth. Basically, it is just a horse with a horn, much like an elf is just a human with funky ears. ;)

Thoughts and opinions?

[MichaelMartinez]

Why should such creatures have had a place in Middle-earth? Tolkien built his mythology from an etymological perspective. That is, if there was a name for a creature in Middle-earth, that name had to have a history. But what would the history have represented?

The "mythology", as all mythologies do, supposes that everything is real. Hence, to have a unicorn in Middle-earth, you have to have a place for it. How should it have fit into the scheme of things?

The Ents and the Eagles had roles to play. Even Tom Bombadil served some sort of purpose, although no one knows what it is. Thematically, he provided Frodo with a place of temporary refuge and a means of avoiding pursuit on the road. He also provided the reader some foreknowledge of things to come.

What could Tolkien have had a unicorn do that would have advanced a story?

[Ithrynluin]

Hence, to have a unicorn in Middle-earth, you have to have a place for it. How should it have fit into the scheme of things?

A plausible explanation would be to have the unicorn be the protector of the kelvar (at least the 'weaker' ones), much as the Ents are the shepherds of the trees. That does not seem at all far fetched to me, especially since in some stories unicorns are the protectors of forests.

What could Tolkien have had a unicorn do that would have advanced a story?

Much the same thing as any other creature in Tolkien's subcreation.

Why should such creatures have had a place in Middle-earth?

I'm not saying they should have, I am wondering why some did not while others did?

Did Tolkien use a certain set of criteria or not?

Did he model his creation after something specific or not?

[Eledhwen]

Shadowfax is a unicorn in all but horned head.

Even Tom Bombadil served some sort of purpose, although no one knows what it is. Perhaps we could have the same purpose for a Unicorn :D :p

[Inderjit S]

What I find interesting Walter, is that he eventually dropped a lot of those creatures from the legendarium, or, in the case of others, they did not play a great or even minor part in the history of Middle-Earth. But then again, we know so little about Midlde Earth, some of those characters may not have been wholly dropped-just ignored. ;)

[Eledhwen]

Tolkien's criticism of Zimmerman's storyline in his Letters gives a clue; for instance, Tolkien accuses Zimmerman of over-using the Eagles, which he believed should be used sparingly to keep the story believable. Imagine a Middle-earth stuffed with mythological creatures popping up here and there in the story, and you see what he means by over-use; a principle which would also apply to variety as well as quantity.

[Ciryaher]

Tolkien's works, while they did not include such creatures as listed above, did contain some interesting creatures, though these were mainly in the alternate versions (in my opinion, better versions) of certain stories from the Silmarillion that were written out more fully in the BoLTs and the other HoME books.

Let us not forget Tevildo, the Prince of Cats; or one of Sauron's incarnations, Thû, who could take the form of a wolf-man, or werewolf; nor the Vampire Thuringwethil who could become a bat.

Tolkien referred to other creatures "in the dark places of the Earth" and I've always been curious about what he had in mind.

PS: it's been a while since I read the stories, so if I was incorrect with those names, please correct me ;)

[Inderjit S]

Let us not the forget the nameless things which Gandalf only saw, and the mysterious evil creatures which have no name that are mentioned in the early chapters of LoTR.

[Eledhwen]

There have been debates on this paradox; partly resolved by starting the clock on Sauron's age from the day he entered Middle-earth, with him possibly living outside of time (and therefore ageless) before then.

[Eledhwen]

But then - following this line of reasoning - the "nameless things" could hardly be older either, could they?No, but those beings who step into time (Middle-earth) at a certain juncture cannot claim to be older than what was already there. That which exists outside of time cannot be measured by it. If Sauron had been in Middle-earth when these nameless, gnawing creatures of the discord were created, he may well have been aware of them; but he was not there and so was not aware. I think that is the gist of Gandalf's words.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Tolkien's world certainly contains many creatures that may be called 'unreal', but there are zounds more of these to be found in the mythologies of different cultures...

Did he even give especial thought to which of these fantasy creatures would grace his stories and which not?...

Thoughts and opinions?

I doubt if T sat down and decided which fantastic creatures he would (and would not) put into his tales. Methinks that they simply "arose" at the propitious time. Therefore he created what needed to be created at the time of need. It is one man's creation, after all. It is a far different kind of creation, written with a far different purpose than, say, Jo Rowling's Harry Potter tales, which consciously call upon all the "traditional iconography of magick" with such entertaining and telling effect.

Barley

[Eledhwen]

Since they entered the world not at a certain juncture, but at the very beginning of Time, there is hardly a chance for anyone/anything being "older" than one of those Ainur who chose to enter the world, IMO. Conceded!

The statement of Gandalf is IMO simply not congruent with other information about Tolkien's subcreation at the time.Then we must assume that Gandalf was wrong, or (admittedly unlikely) using the word 'older' in some other sense (both Treebeard and Iarwain have been called eldest).

Thus - to me - it only makes sense when I consider it an allusion to the myth of Yggdrasil and Nidhogg, especially since Tolkien uses a similar wording as is found in the translations of Snorri's Prose Edda...I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge on this one, as I can't even pronounce Yggdrasil.

[Ithrynluin]

There have been debates on this paradox; partly resolved by starting the clock on Sauron's age from the day he entered Middle-earth, with him possibly living outside of time (and therefore ageless) before then.

I put forth a similar (nutty?) theory on this very subject here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?p=365004#post365004)

We may claim that Gandalf, being clad in the flash of the earth, lost some of his knowledge, or it had become somewhat hazy.

Regarding Walter's quotes which allegedly reject this theory:

For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.

If the Great music was only a 'foreshowing' and nothing substantial had actually been created, what exactly did the Ainur enter into?

It was not the Ainur's part to create each and every detail of Arda, and it may be that Eru created a rough 'outline' of Arda with a few details (i.e. Tom Bombadil, the Nameless things, which might only have become 'nameless' after Melko tinkered with them) extant already, but not much, leaving the brunt of the work to the Ainur.

So, unless I am gravely mistaken, I'd say those quotes don't really do any substantial harm to the theory, as it is purely a matter of interpretation of those passages, which are not exactly devoid of ambiguity (and don't we love that?).

Anyhow, thanks all, for delving into this topic.