Who Performs the Weddings?

[Valandil]

In another forum, member 'no1liz' asks who performs the wedding of Sam and Rosie. Someone else points out that we're not told either that, or who performs that of Aragorn and Arwen. Same holds for other characters... Faramir and Eowyn, etc.

What do you folks think?

Was there a Justice-of-the-Peace who performed the wedding and recorded it? Did some other authority figure do the act? Did the couple simply promise themselves to one another? Or... jump over a broom?

Personally - I think maybe the latter two. In most cases, the couple would have just made a pledge to one another - likely less formal than today's weddings - but probably considered more binding.

I can see Hobbits jumping over a broom though... or some such! :p

[no1liz]

When I posted my question, I went to my bookcase and started dragging out my Tolkien reference books. I couldn't find anything. The Shire does have goverment. Sam becomes mayor. Bilbo and Frodo both make wills. There would have to be some kind of town hall or civil service. Don't you think? Liz in Aberdeen

[Valandil]

Even if these things were not recorded 'officially' - I would think there would have been some public component of it... either that it be done publicly as part of a big event or celebration - or at least that there be a requisite number of witnesses, who could be called upon to attest to the fact that they had pledged themselves together.

If a man and woman (male and female of your race of preference) were alone in an isolated area, if they agreed to the arrangement with no witnesses, I think it would also be legitimate. Sort of a 'common law' type of thing... but once they came into contact with any kind of society, they should make it clear to all that they are spoken for. (EDIT: I was trying to think of a 'ferinstance from Tolkien, and I finally did... Thingol & Melian!)

[e.Blackstar]

Maybe, if one was avalible, a wizard? :rolleyes:

[HLGStrider]

I remember once someone brought up the question "Do Elves have pre-marital sex?" I don't remember why or how it went, but I think someone pointed out that Tolkien had said (I think in the Unfinished Tales which I have not read fully, but it might've been elsewhere, and I don't remember which poster said this. . .) that in Elven culture sex was considered a contract so in Elven culture Sex=Marriage.

I always saw this as the case with Beren and Luthien. I never imagined them going through a ceremony. I just sort of saw Thingol finally giving in and saying, 'All right, boy, she's yours" and them rushing off to consumate it, and then it was done.

That said, I think there was a prerequisite, if you will, for paternal approval. A man would need to go through the dad, get the permission, and then make love to the girl in order to be married, which was the hang up in Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen's case.

With A&A I think it is further added in to that Aragorn was a king, so there would probably be a royal celebration, but I doubt it would've been what we would consider a ceremony, more of announcing to the kingdom the intentions to wed, a large party, exchange of gifts, and then consumation.

I think the Hobbits were more likely to have traditions involving a broom or the groom getting shanghaied by buddies, but really we can't tell, can we.

[Morohtar]

I'm guessing they would have some government official involved, but mostly just to keep track of what was going on. Something like "do you?" "yep" "and you?" "yep" "alrighty then, let me right this in the big book of 'what's going down in the Shire'."

And then they party.

Maybe that's it. They didn't really have any formal part to marriage till they figured out it was something they could celebrate with a party. Then they started having the big hullubaloo about it.

[Starflower]

The hobbits were the most likely candidates of having an official ceremony, after all, hobbits loved official things! Maybe the young couple went to the Town Hall or something and got 'married' by the Mayor.. then everybody ahd another excuse for a party :)

[Greenwood]

I had already posted my comment on this subject in the other thread so I will just copy it to here:

Yes, Tolkien did not put any organized religion in LOTR. As has been said, he took pains to avoid it in LOTR. Nevertheless, we can assume that in any settled society there is some sort of system of recognizing couples who have committed to each other. There are many such couples in LOTR. "Marriage" may have been just the couple announcing to their community that they were a couple. Tolkien says Sam and Rosie married, so we just have to accept that they did it by whatever method was normal in the Shire.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I like Valandil's earlier comment: "Jumping over a broom" does the job! :)

Ceremony is evidently something that neither man nor hobbits can do without. We seem to need some sort of structure that marks out a change from one basic way of being in the world to another. We have graduations, funerals, weddings, bar mitzvahs, baptisms, coronations, etc.

Each of them mark out a basic change in one's status or situation. Indeed, many cultures consider them a kind of magic. And many a person defines himself by the status that has been brought about through the mechanism of ceremony. They are helpful — indeed in many cases essential — in defining, clearly, and to an entire community, an individual's or a group's change from one status to another.

Barley

[Sushi]

There is one thing here that just aint right - Do we see Christianity in Middle Earth? I don't think so (I don't know at all though and please prove me wrong if I'm wrong). Wedding is a christian ceremony, so if they are not christian then they shouldn't be able to do that, they wouldn't actually know about it, would they? or what?

-Sushi

[Hammersmith]

There is one thing here that just aint right - Do we see Christianity in Middle Earth? I don't think so (I don't know at all though and please prove me wrong if I'm wrong). Wedding is a christian ceremony, so if they are not christian then they shouldn't be able to do that, they wouldn't actually know about it, would they? or what?

-Sushi

Marriage in itself is a Judeo-Christian ceremony, but the word has expanded to include the legally binding ceremonies held by many other cultures. The debate is currently "how far should that be allowed to go?", but I'll steer clear of that one. Basically, the book's written in English, so would use the word "marriage" for the legal and consentual binding of couples.

What I want to know is did Eöl "marry" Aredhel, considering she didn't really consent to it? I think it says something about him "taking" her as his wife, or how he "made her" his wife. If so, did she then "divorce" him when she ran away?

[Valandil]

:
What I want to know is did Eöl "marry" Aredhel, considering she didn't really consent to it? I think it says something about him "taking" her as his wife, or how he "made her" his wife. If so, did she then "divorce" him when she ran away?

We don't quite have this sense in our 'modern' world today, but for ancient societies - and much of history, consummation was a rather binding act.

There are even Old Testament biblical prescriptions about the obligation of a man to marry a woman he has had IIRC (I'd have to re-check that though). One I DON'T have to check is the biblical account of a woman who was raped by her half-brother - and then demanded that he marry her, which he would not do... and it was considered that he was wronging her in this.

In today's world, we would think that would be the LAST thing a woman treated in this way would want... but I think it speaks much about how the importance of the consummation was viewed. (EDIT: for that was what made them 'one flesh' - and the idea is that you cannot be 'one' with multiple people)

[Hammersmith]

I know that the consummation was often binding in history, but I was challenging the idea in this thread that the elves would require permission. Eol simply does the old caveman "Me like you" trick, then *poof*! She's married.

[Greenwood]

There is one thing here that just aint right - Do we see Christianity in Middle Earth? I don't think so (I don't know at all though and please prove me wrong if I'm wrong). Wedding is a christian ceremony, so if they are not christian then they shouldn't be able to do that, they wouldn't actually know about it, would they? or what?No, we do not see Christianity in LOTR, but some sort of relationship of two (or more) people to make up a "family" is a pretty common feature of nearly all (all?) human societies. (In the English language it is called marriage.) I believe there are lots of other cultures beyond the Judeo-Christian one that have some ceremony recognizing the joining together of two people. Humans are a social animal and kinship, by birth or sexual relationship, is pretty widespread in human societies. Many animals have stable relationships that last beyond the time of mating and the rearing of offspring. In some, the pair bond (to use the formal term from animal behavior literature) only lasts for the breeding season, but in others it is year round. In some the mates may split up at the end of the mating season (and even migrate separately), but come together again the following mating season.

[Meselyn]

I think I did see someone behind sam and rose. So maybe they had a special person perform the marriage.

[Valandil]

I think I did see someone behind sam and rose. So maybe they had a special person perform the marriage.

OK now... WHICH page is that on?? ;)

[Elfarmari]

I would think Hobbits would have some kind of legal document signed by several witnesses, perhaps in a special color ink. (I seem to recall the Sacksville-Bagginses being foiled with Bilbo correctly made out his will with the signatures of a certain number of witnesses in red ink). In other cultures, it does seem that it was more of an official declaration and party than any ceremony in our sense.

[HLGStrider]

I know that the consummation was often binding in history, but I was challenging the idea in this thread that the elves would require permission. Eol simply does the old caveman "Me like you" trick, then *poof*! She's married.

This case was, I think, a cruel exception in many ways.
I will clarify my "parental approval" clause a bit. I would say that it is possible to marry a girl without paternal consent BUT it is not looked upon as honorable and the girls family would most likely not recognize the match and possibly take measures to void it via the death of the unwanted son-in-law.


There are a few reasons that Eol's marriage to Aredhel is exceptional. For one, I would say that Aredhel was, at the point when Eol found her, not under "male-headship." For a girl to need the permission of a father she would have to have a father and recognized the authority of that father. I can't really remember who Aredhel's father was, but I think the idea was that she had struck out on her own against the will of those in power. Aredhel was, therefore, without male protection, something that would probably been viewed as necessary in such a society. She had no recognized father-figure to be given away by.

There is never any mention of her family coming after her to avenge her. Any other maiden, kidnapped against her will, would have had family rush to save her. If they reached her after she had been raped, I assume there would have been harsh action, most likely death, taken against the rapist, which would have been considered a nullment of his power over the girl.

Now, I imagine that, with a lack of legally binding ceremony, certain families probably would not recognize an unapproved match. Therefore a person could be married to another but have the parents of one or the other not see their child as bound by it. Again, I would say in this case, the unwanted-son-in-law would be indanger of reprisal by father or brothers. Had Beren attempted to consumate his union with Luthien before he gained the approval of Thingol, I imagine the head-elf would have slain him mercilessly.

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

Tolkien did say something along the lines of he wanted to avoid anything like religious ceremony in the Lord of the Rings and that's why Aragorn and Arwen's wedding is only brushed over and other such cases. However, it did say that Elrond came and put her hand in his, or something like that, so I suppose that may indeed be an indication that parental consent was an important factor at least with Elves and/or Men.

Aredhel was Fingolfin's daughter, and therefore Turgon's sister, hence Turgon putting Eol to death once he came to Gondolin even though this was something that Elves had never practised, the only case of what could truly be called capitol punishment in Tolkien's works (meaning that there was no battle involved and it was done strictly to settle a wrong). I believe the story was that he was thrown from the walls of Gondolin and as he was dying he cursed those that did it, Turgon in particular, and foretold the fall of Gondolin as springing from this, and that his own son (Maeglin) would die in the same way, which of course he did, during the sack of Gondolin. Fingolfin must have been dead when all this happened so his say wouldn't count for much :rolleyes:.

I guess I had always assumed because of that bit with Elrond and Arwen that it might have something to do with a pledge taken before a Lord or some person of importance to make it legally binding, but this is all purely speculation.

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:
In HoMe X Morgoth's Ring, I think it was, Tolkien wrote that Elves were not wont to make mistakes as regards love and marriage, and that they were always carefully thoughtful about it. The couple would be betrothed for a year, at the beginning of which time they would exchange silver rings, then they would give them back to each other on their wedding day to keep and treasure somewhere but instead wear gold rings once they were actually married. I seem to remember that the families were at least involved in some way, but I don't think it was that a particular person had the right to forbid a marriage, more that it was always expected that everyone in the family would be told and consulted and be present at the actual ceremonies. I suppose then that the explaination for Beren and Luthien is like in the Lay of Leithian: Beren felt bound by his oaths to pay the bride-price Elu Thingol asked, even if Luthien were to beg to him to run away with her. Can anyone else remember something from any versions of the tale that might bear on this?

[HLGStrider]

Aredhel was Fingolfin's daughter, and therefore Turgon's sister, hence Turgon putting Eol to death once he came to Gondolin even though this was something that Elves had never practised,

But the execution was not punishment for rape but murder. Before the spear took Aredhel, I see every indication that Turgon was planning to let Eol live, what with all that haggling about Eol wanting to leave with his son and Turgon saying he couldn't for it would endanger the hidden city.

Turgon doesn't seem to mention, "Oh, yeah, and by the way you deserve to die for your treatment of my sister."

I can't remember the exact bit, but there is something about after they had found happiness Beren being called by his oath to try and find the Silmaril again, isn't there?

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

I think you're right about that, I had forgotten that of course Eol kills Aredhel because he didn't want anyone to have her if he couldn't...but there was still the implication in some of Tolkien's writings that it may have been wrong for Eol to be executed even then, as Elves had never done such things before. I don't have exact quotes, but I'm sure I read something of the sort. Of course this could be one of those things Tolkien changed his mind about, but I think it was in some of his latest published writings.

Sorry I haven't checked back in this thread for so long, should have noticed and replied sooner.

And yeah, I'm almost certain there was something about Beren and Luthien being happy alone in the forest for some time then Beren going off in search of the Silmaril anyway. He sneaked off while she was asleep in the Lay.

[The Bull Roarer]

My assumption has always been that a wizard did the more important ceromonies, i believe Gandalf crowned Aragorn, so i always figured, if possible, and the event be important enough, a Wizard was head of stuff like that.

[Greenwood]

My assumption has always been that a wizard did the more important ceromonies, i believe Gandalf crowned Aragorn, so i always figured, if possible, and the event be important enough, a Wizard was head of stuff like that.Welcome to the Forum Bull Roarer!

As for the crowning of Aragorn, in "The Steward and the King" in ROTK, Faramir says:"Men of Gondor, the loremasters tell that it was the custom of old that the king should receive the crown from his father ere he died; or if that might not be, that he should go alone and take it from the hands of his father in the tomb where he was laid. But since things nust now be done otherwise, using the authority of the Steward, I have today brought hither from Rath Dinen the crown of Earnur the last king, whose days passed in the time of our longfathers of old."and thenThen to the wonder of many Aragorn did not put the crown upon his head, but gave it back to Faramir, and said: "By the labour and valour of many I have come into my inheritance. In token of this I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory."Thus, it was not normal for a wizard to crown the king. Also, since there were only six wizards and of them Saruman stayed in Orthanc and three others mainly stayed in the East (if I remember correctly), then poor old Gandalf and Radagast would have been hard-pressed to perform all the marriages and other ceremonies in Middle Earth. :D

[Barliman Butterbur]

...poor old Gandalf and Radagast would have been hard-pressed to perform all the marriages and other ceremonies in Middle Earth. :D

But think of the side business they could have had! All those weddings taking place in the Fourth Age...

Barley

[Greenwood]

But think of the side business they could have had! All those weddings taking place in the Fourth Age...Maybe that's what happened to Radagast? We never heard of him taking ship to the West. :)

[HLGStrider]

Ah yes, he went to Minas Vegas and opened Radaghast's chapel of love! I can see it all now. . .

Gosh, I have been working on a laptop all week. Makes a desktop keyboard feel really weird. . .

Anyway, HG, I wasn't arguing about whether the death penalty was normal for Elves. I was just stating that you had the accusation wrong.

Anyway, I particularly remember a point in the story of B and L where it is announced, "and for this point on they were husband and wife."

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

Ah yes, he went to Minas Vegas and opened Radaghast's chapel of love! I can see it all now. . .

Anyway, HG, I wasn't arguing about whether the death penalty was normal for Elves. I was just stating that you had the accusation wrong.

Anyway, I particularly remember a point in the story of B and L where it is announced, "and for this point on they were husband and wife."

LOL, I can't even describe the utterly hilarious picture that brought into my head...

I think I'm gonna subscribe to this thread. I forget all about it and then when I finally remember something really interesting has happened...two months ago.

And yes, you were right, I had the accusation all wrong, and even my correction had a false implication since it had been so long since I read the Sil, I have since re-read it.

HERE I CLARIFY WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AND WHY I'M SUCH AN IDIOT:
Eol tried to kill Maeglin, saying he had the right to choose death for his son as well as himself, but Aredhel jumped between them to save her son, and then died much later that evening, for even though the wound in her shoulder was slight, Eol's javelin was poisoned and for whatever dark, brooding reason that guy had he didn't tell anyone so until too late.

All right, as for Beren and Luthien...I really don't remember that, though that's hardly to say it's not true, just that I need a refresher course. Does anyone have some exact quotes from some of the B & L stuff that might be helpful? I can't believe I can't keep this stuff straight, but then, there's a lot of it, even if you don't count the different versions Tolkien so loved to write, so I guess I won't be too mad at myself.