Did the people evolve?

[Firawyn]

A question came to mind...about ten seconds ago..that's why I'm posting..he,he :D Um..so in our world, creatures develope and change over time, as well as humans and such...Did this happen in Middle Earth?

[Alatar]

Yes. it says that the elves bodies changed to fit there nature, and the Dunadain shrunk after the downfall.
Afew people here are of the opinion that hobbits are a strain of men so...

[Firawyn]

Okay, hobbits didn't get tall...or did they shrink? What direction of evolution? :confused: :D

[YayGollum]

Yes, the nasssty humans obviously shrunk. The reason ---> Their bit of Beorning blood (known for being Animalic) helped them out with their main concern ---> being tiny, easily overlooked, stealthy, tricksy, and quiet, as many smaller animals are good at. Some of the times that nasssty hobbit sneakiness is described, it seems to me to be that a bit of magic might have been involved. Beornings definitely have a bit of magic in them. I remember spouting off my Beorning/nasssty hobbit connection one time, and other people showed up with quotes that actually gave this crazy idea a basis in fact. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[Barliman Butterbur]

A question came to mind...about ten seconds ago..that's why I'm posting..he,he :D Um..so in our world, creatures develope and change over time, as well as humans and such...Did this happen in Middle Earth?

The best starting places to answer this question for yourself are perhaps reading everything Tolkien had to say in the LOTR appendices, and then tackling The Silmarillion. After that, perhaps the History of Middle Earth.

Barley

[Firawyn]

Barley: Yes I know I need to do this but my dear, I'm in highschool, I have barly enough time to wipe my butt, let alone read an in depth work such as the Sil. I'm working on in, I've finished the Unfinished Tales, and I'm on round three of Lord of the Rings. That's pretty good for a person who didn't read Tolkien until after the Fellowship came out in theaters.

YayGollum: I'm begining to feel stalked! ;) :D Every where I post, you follow. We NEVER posted in the same threads until I began to post in the 'Opinions on the RPG' thread!! He,he!! :D

[Alatar]

Yes it is good.
But i only started reading a few months before that and i've lost count of LotR and read UT the Sil BoLT1 BoLT2(Im reading that now for the frist time .The Fall of Gondalin!!!!Whoa i love the heraldry of the houses)
I thought that hobbits are just a smaller sort of men check out the "why three strains of hobbits thread".

[Barliman Butterbur]

Barley: ...I have barely enough time to wipe my butt...

It is to be fervently hoped that you do set aside time for at least that, if only for the sake of your Dear Mother who, I assume, still does your laundry...;)

Barley

[Barliman Butterbur]

I will not walk with your progressive apes,
erect and sapient. Before them gapes
the dark abyss to which their progress tends --
if by God's mercy progress ever ends,
and does not ceaselessly revolve the same
unfruitful course with changing of a name.
I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art.
I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,
nor cast my own small golden scepter down.
(J.R.R. Tolkien: "Mythopoeia")

Well there you are: that should settle any argument: In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution, only a private creationism. This was Tolkien's world, was it not, precisely as he wanted it to be, it was the one place he could escape to, away from what he hated about the real world, and have things exactly as he liked them. Having created such a world meant that there was no need for evolution. Eru created it and set it going according to predetermined laws — exactly according to the author's wishes. Eru existed as Tolkien created him. He had no power to do anything other than what Tolkien directed, being one of T's subcreations. Some of us act as if Middle-earth is real and subject to speculation as if it is real. It isn't real. It's a figment of a man's imagination, let us continue to remember...

Barley

[Nóm]

Barliman, like to explain how you reach the conclusion that "In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution"?

I think you are mistaken to say that settles the arguement. (Though I didnt know there was an arguement.)

Where is any indication that genetics worked differently in Middle-earth? There are only those indications that say it did not, as far as I am aware.

Just because the children of Iluvatar came into existance through creation (as far as I know this was never in doubt) does not mean that they do not evolve. At least, not that I can imagine... unless you care to explain?

[Barliman Butterbur]

Barliman, like to explain how you reach the conclusion that "In Tolkien's world, there was no evolution"?

I think you are mistaken to say that settles the arguement. (Though I didnt know there was an arguement.)

Where is any indication that genetics worked differently in Middle-earth? There are only those indications that say it did not, as far as I am aware.

Just because the children of Iluvatar came into existance through creation (as far as I know this was never in doubt) does not mean that they do not evolve. At least, not that I can imagine... unless you care to explain?

The explanation lies in the fact that we are dealing with an imaginary place. None of it ever existed. As far as I know, Tolkien never gave the slightest thought to such as "genetics" working in any fashion at all in Middle-earth. You would not apply such speculation to a painting of a person or a piece of sculpture — why with fiction? And "argument" is the term I am using to describe the speculations about things that simply never existed because they were never said to exist by the author. Tolkien never discussed any aspect of anything "evolving." The closest he came was writing about cobbling together orcs from elves, and that certainly isn't evolution, that's Tolkien being an author. The whole idea is to "willingly suspend disbelief" and simply take in the art (at least at first) as the artist intends.

There are some things that can be inferred: that hobbits moved their bowels and washed their hands afterwards, or they'd have some very serious problems. It can be inferred that they patched their clothes when they needed to, and did all the million and one things that any rustic people would do. But since they have no place in the story, there is no point in mentioning them. Perhaps you put the existence of genetics in that category as well. Since Tolkien never mentioned anything about genetics, there's no need for me to wonder about it — I assume that Tolkien has told us — and told us well — about every single thing he really wanted us to know about. He never mentioned genetics — not even once. :)

Barley

[Thorondor_]

If there is no evolution, that what is the purpose of evil? And we do see in the Simlarillion a "downward" trend - however I just call that finishing the Creation. In my opinion, the fact that Manwe had no knowledge of evil was a great obstacle against creation, and therefore Melkor was one of the forces driving onward the Creation. Would there have been any stars without Melkor? And without them, would the elves have appeared? The same with sun and moon, and the appearence of humans. Eru himself said that even those who oppose him only participate in the making of his Creation. Even within us, struggles only bring outwards - hopefully - the best of us.

The battle between evil and good IS the path of the evolution. And if there is evolution in the history of Ea as a whole , there should be evolution in the part of it,- genetics.