Middle E(ngland)arth

[scotsboyuk]

How many of you are interested in the history that inspired Tolkien? Has one led you to an interest in the other?

[Alatar]

Well no but living where i do its imopossible not to think about the shire.I have been told (no deffinent sorces though)Tolkein wrote some of LotR near a forest called cannock chase in staffordshire :) :rolleyes: . I can see that forest though my widow. I love living in the shire.

[Barliman Butterbur]

How many of you are interested in the history that inspired Tolkien? Has one led you to an interest in the other?

Are you speaking of English history?

Barley

[scotsboyuk]

Are you speaking of English history?

Barley

Primarily, although of course there are other cultures, which inspired and lent themselves to Tolkien's works.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Primarily, although of course there are other cultures, which inspired and lent themselves to Tolkien's works.

Alas, my only formal study of English history took place back around 1958 when I was a college freshman or junior, and that was only part of a more general history class — useless now. My only other contact with it now is what has come up in reading Tolkien and reading about Tolkien. Have you any recommendations?

Barley

[scotsboyuk]

Have you any recommendations?

Barley

It would depend upon what sort of thing interests you. Anglo-Saxons? Normans? Celts? Wars? Religion?

[Barliman Butterbur]

It would depend upon what sort of thing interests you. Anglo-Saxons? Normans? Celts? Wars? Religion?

I am completely bereft of the history of the British Isles. I am however, partial to Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

Barley

[Eledhwen]

I am completely bereft of the history of the British Isles. I am however, partial to Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

BarleyThe Post-Roman history is pretty well documented, and the so-called Dark Age is beginning to be understood by interested historians at last. I was apallingly taught in this subject at school; and I suspect many others were too. Since then, I have read up on British History myself, and find I am far more interested in what can be learned of ordinary folk than the goings on at court or the murderous antics of the likes of Richard Coer de Lion (I was delighted when Tony Robinson showed that the current Royal line was the result of bastardy, and that our real king is a man called Michael, a Plantagenet who lives in the Australian outback). I prefer the ordinary, which history largely ignores. Most of what we know is from the Domesday Book. I recently attended a lecture, run by the local Historical Society, on Drove Roads. Fascinating!

I also enjoy the stories that are beginning to be referred to as the British mythology. The Mabinogion is a large source; and historians are peeling off the Christian layers applied by the early church, to find ancient gods behind the stories of many famous British saints. The same goes for Arthur and his round table.

I bought a book 'Caesar against the Celts' to know my Romano-British history a little better; as most of us leave school knowing, through vague recollections of role play in primary school, that Caesar invaded Britain, then Boudicca fought back and lost, then killed herself. Even towards the end of Roman rule it's interesting. Everyone I have spoken to, to date, on the subject of Carausius, is completely unaware that Britannia was, for seven years, a Republic under this man's control, after he declared UDI following an order, from Emperor Diocletian back in Rome, to return forthwith to be questioned on his navy's piracy. Am I the only person who finds this stuff interesting?

Yet, the only part of British History I see playing a significant part in Tolkien's mythology is World War I. It's the myths and legends of the deep past from throughout Europe that have played the bigger part in shaping Tolkien's imagination; his love of England - the one he saw passing away with the beginning of the 20th Century - gave us The Shire; and Tolkien soon saw that Hobbits and their little peaceful land were a necessary part of the story, without which there would be nothing ordinary to set against the high mythology of the Elves and the Valar.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I bought a book 'Caesar against the Celts' to know my Romano-British history a little better; as most of us leave school knowing, through vague recollections of role play in primary school, that Caesar invaded Britain, then Boudicca fought back and lost, then killed herself. Even towards the end of Roman rule it's interesting. Everyone I have spoken to, to date, on the subject of Carausius, is completely unaware that Britannia was, for seven years, a Republic under this man's control, after he declared UDI following an order, from Emperor Diocletian back in Rome, to return forthwith to be questioned on his navy's piracy.

I will share a little secret: I have always thought it unfortunate that the Original Peoples of the British Isles who were conquered by Christian forces adopted that religion (I assume there was no choice — as usual). I always thought that the indiginous people would have been much better off with their original religion — Druidism. Looking at it from "across the pond" at the troubles in Ireland for instance: all the hell between the Catholics and the Protestants — such an appalling shame. I think that Wicca and/or Druidism would have been so much better (judging from what little I know of those religions). And I have never seen the logic for non-white people adopting a religion where God is depicted as a white man...talk about building in a serious inferiority complex and serious self-esteem problems...

Barley

[Hammersmith]

I bought a book 'Caesar against the Celts' to know my Romano-British history a little better; as most of us leave school knowing, through vague recollections of role play in primary school, that Caesar invaded Britain, then Boudicca fought back and lost, then killed herself. Even towards the end of Roman rule it's interesting. Everyone I have spoken to, to date, on the subject of Carausius, is completely unaware that Britannia was, for seven years, a Republic under this man's control, after he declared UDI following an order, from Emperor Diocletian back in Rome, to return forthwith to be questioned on his navy's piracy. Am I the only person who finds this stuff interesting?
Have you read any books by Rosemary Sutcliff? They're fiction obviously, and I'm told they're aimed at children but I would never have guessed. They're fabulously well researched, magnificently written and many focus in depth on Roman Britain, building up stories of those who witness the historical events. Carausius and his exploits form a central position in The Lantern Bearers. Quite worth a read for some (albeit not strictly historical) intrigue!

...a religion where God is depicted as a white man...
I trust that you're well aware that is an entirely Medieval concept, Barley?

[Eledhwen]

Have you read any books by Rosemary Sutcliff? Quite worth a read for some (albeit not strictly historical) intrigue!I haven't come across these, but just looked at them in Amazon.

Druidism? Even the Romans found their practices apalling, which included bestiality and human sacrifice according to contemporary (Roman) accounts. I'm not sure that the white sheet clad tree huggers who gather at the stones on midsummer's eve these days would be recognised by the original practitioners. I suspect the Romans came at a time when Druidism, like many religions, had become a power thing; with the Druids in absolute control through fear. From the Roman point of view, they simply had to be dispatched; and their secrets died with them.

Long before Eric von Danniken made his fortune suggesting that we came from Gods; the ancient Britons were sure of it; and the result wass some really magical tales with outrageously impossible quests to rival those in the Kalevala. These tales are jewels which have been covered in dross; and hats off to those researchers who are determined to unearth the original tales from the clues left behind in the less-Romanised areas.

SORRY Walter, I didn't make myself very clear. I meant to say that the only part of British History as it is generally taught that plays a part in Tolkien's inspiration is WW1. There's plenty of the sort of stuff that never gets it's toe into the door of a school History class that was food and drink for Tolkien's imagination. I have posted somewhat in the thread that complains about the proposed dropping of Classic Literature from British Schools; but the sad thing is that the richest and deepest classics never got opened in the first place. We're like The Hobbits - we've forgotten our own history and mythology.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Druidism? Even the Romans found their practices apalling, which included bestiality and human sacrifice according to contemporary (Roman) accounts. I'm not sure that the white sheet clad tree huggers who gather at the stones on midsummer's eve these days would be recognised by the original practitioners...

Ah, so I have completely misunderstood these pre-Christian religions! I thought they were a bunch of sheet-clad tree huggers! My bad...:eek:

Long before Eric von Danniken made his fortune suggesting that we came from Gods; the ancient Britons were sure of it; and the result was some really magical tales with outrageously impossible quests to rival those in the Kalevala. These tales are jewels which have been covered in dross; and hats off to those researchers who are determined to unearth the original tales from the clues left behind in the less-Romanised areas.

Now that sounds intriguing!

Barley

[Ingwë]

How many of you are interested in the history that inspired Tolkien? Has one led you to an interest in the other?

I am interested, too. But as far as I know Tolkien was inspired by (or used info provided in) the mithology of the Scandinavian peoples.
And I also now that there is relationship between the Ring and the argh, I don't know the word in English; anyway... Relationship between The One Ring and the Cup of Jesus.

[Alatar]

I also now that there is relationship between the Ring and the argh, I don't know the word in English; anyway... Relationship between The One Ring and the Cup of Jesus.
I think the word you are thinking of is the holy grail.
Really? i have read many books about his work in genral including the magical worlds of the lord of the rings that is about the myths that inspired him.
although that book is bad in his world (eg leaving gandalf aS AN ANGEL no not maia angel*shuder*) It gives real life myths and facts on the names of orcs dwarves and other, mainly scadavian, myths.

[scotsboyuk]

@Barely

The truth is that we really don't know very much about religion in pre-Roman Briton. What information we do have primarily comes from Roman accounts and archaeology, both of which are less than conclusive.

There is a good deal of evidence to show that pre-Roman Briton was a sophisticated place with a high degree of culture, but which lacked political cohesion. This shouldn't be taken as being comparable with something like The Shire though. There is evidence to show that there was cannabalism going on as recently as 500 B.C. and one wonders when the practice completely died out ...

It is often said that the Normans changed Briton, but I would argue that the Romans had a far greater impact than the Normans ever did. Christianity was actually a force for good in Britain in so far as it provided a cohesive force to unite the country again.

Tolkien's England was the England of the 18th and 19th centuries, it had already gone when Tolkien was born. The Shire perhaps represents those small areas where that old England still lingered on.

[Eledhwen]

As Scotsboyuk points out; the description of Britain at the time of the Roman invasion was written by the invaders, as the Britons were either non-literate or used a form of writing that has not survived as usable documents. This might also mean that accounts of isolated incidents of bestiality and/or cannibalism, written because they were notable, have been given far too much historical weight in the general culture. It's like reading an account of Jack the Ripper's behaviour and assuming that that was the usual treatment of street women of that time.

One effect of the Roman invasion was that it held back the Saxon invasion for about 500 years. What difference that made can only be speculated on; cultures, under different leaders, can change a lot in 500 years.

But Middle-earth is not a stage of English history, it is a stage of imagined history. There were still pockets where echoes of the unmechanised era remained in Tolkien's youth; (I have seen photographs of farm labourers/herdsmen etc in their traditional Wiltshire smocks taken as late as the 1950s!) and he had the discernment to notice and mourn that era's final moments.

I think it's ironic that thanks to the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien's own imagined world came to an end with the dawning of the 4th Age - an age of unmagical ordinariness which he found too unattractive to complete a further sequel.

[scotsboyuk]

The most obvious comparisons to be made between the Grail and the One Ring are of course the ideas of 'the quest' and as an object of immense power.

There is of course the idea of purity too; only the purest were allowed to find the Grail and only the purest could withstand the evil of the One Ring.

There are too many differences between the two, however, to make any sort of direct comparison though. Interestinly though, both the Grail and the One Ring were brought to England and The Shire, respectively, from different lands where they remained hidden.

[Eledhwen]

For me Ancient Europe - (8000 BC - AD 1000) Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World has proven an invaluable piece of information about those pre-literate times in Europe....I did a search on Amazon, and it came up with "Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples, 8000 BC to AD 1500" instead. Where can I get one (assuming it's in English, that is!)

[Eledhwen]

(be warned it is huge, heavy and not quite cheap)...Understatement of the year! At least there are two volumes, so it feels like you get two books. This isn't a good time for me to be spending £200 on a book.

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

[scotsboyuk]

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

They are both objects of a quest. They are both magical items. They are both only able to be handled by certain people. They are both hidden for long periods of time. They are both derived from divine sources.

Good and evil are often perspectives, both the Grail and the One Ring can be used for good and evil.

[Ingwë]

I don't get the comparison between the Grail and the One Ring. The Ring is an embodiment of evil. The Grail is a cup - the third cup of the Jewish Passover; specifically the one that Jesus used. What am I missing?

Eledhwen, indeed there are relation between the Grial and the One Ring. I found such thread in other Tolkien forum, but it is in Bulgarian: http://bgtolkienforum.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=886
I will try finding the information in English. It is very interesting. :)

[Eledhwen]

What a pretty forum! And such long posts - a pity I don't understand a word of it. I did recognise the forum members though; so why don't they all just post all that stuff here in English (a bit each shouldn't be too much trouble) and enlighten me. :cool:

[scotsboyuk]

@Eledhwen

What exactly is it that you wish to know?

[Ingwë]

What a pretty forum! And such long posts - a pity I don't understand a word of it. I did recognise the forum members though; so why don't they all just post all that stuff here in English (a bit each shouldn't be too much trouble) and enlighten me. :cool:

Well, Eledhwen, they aren't members of TTF. There are good Tolkienologist there but they don't visit other forums. I don't know why...
Anyway, I send PM to the author of the thread so I hope he will give me a link to an English site.

[Eledhwen]

@Eledhwen

What exactly is it that you wish to know?Only what all those excellent insights are on the Bulgarian Tolkien Forum.

[Eledhwen]

They are both objects of a quest. They are both magical items. They are both only able to be handled by certain people. They are both hidden for long periods of time. They are both derived from divine sources.

Good and evil are often perspectives, both the Grail and the One Ring can be used for good and evil.So we're talking about the legend of the Holy Grail, not the known historical item (as in Indiana Jones and...)

[scotsboyuk]

@Eledhwen

The two are intrinsically linked now. If the Holy Grail is indeed the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper then it stands to reason that it did exist at some point and may still do.

Where the Grail becomes complicated is in the fact that many different theories exist as to what it could have been (or still is as the case may be). These theories range from the afore mentioned drinking cup to a lost bloodline to an ancient Celtic magic cauldron.

The legend of the Grail is similar to legends found in other cultures, where a hero would journey far and face many dangers to obtain a magical item e.g. the Golden Fleece.

Part of these legends is that to obtain such items the person on the quest usually has to be a great hero or pure in some way. As I've commented before, this ties in with the One Ring and the concept of Frodo being resistant to its power.

[Eledhwen]

Where the Grail becomes complicated is in the fact that many different theories exist as to what it could have been (or still is as the case may be). These theories range from the afore mentioned drinking cup to a lost bloodline to an ancient Celtic magic cauldron.Like Arthurian legend, the coming together of many myths. I like your comparison of the Grail and the Ring; Tolkien too was influenced by the myths and legends he had encountered.

[Alatar]

Tolkien was definitly influenced by other legends. The dwarfs in Mythology, are scared of light, evil, live under ground, love gold, and are well... short.
These fit nicely into good and evil, Orcs are scared of light, evil, live under ground, and Dwarves live under ground, love gold, and are well... short.
The same for Odin cutting down to Sauron and Gandalf, each takes some from him. Tolkien said Gandalf was Odinic.

[clashoftheash]

who were conquered by Christian forces adopted that religion

A lot of them adopted it well before there were any christian forces conquering anyone. Ireland became a haven of education, wealth and a refuge for scholars dring the middle ages.

people would have been much better off with their original religion — Druidism

At the time there was no religion called druidism. There was druids who held a high position as advisors and keepers of the law to the rí (king). The Celts/Gaels never wrote anything down because they felt it would be "writing it in stone" and things have to change. So the druids spent 13 years learning everything from older druids who learned it before them.

Because of this we know so little about the religion that was practised. There are people who call themselves "druids" today and they probably believe it themselves but whatever they practice as religion has no baring to what was actually practised by the Gaels.

at the troubles in Ireland for instance: all the hell between the Catholics and the Protestants — such an appalling shame

They're not fighting over religion. Religion has very little to do with it. Its simply the general division of the lines. Most Catholics are nationalist, most Unionists are Protestant.

No one actually cares what religion they are, most of them wouldn't even know the difference between the two religions. Its simply an "Us" vs "them" Situation where you can generally identify "them" as being Catholic/Protestant.

[scotsboyuk]

A lot of them adopted it well before there were any christian forces conquering anyone. Ireland became a haven of education, wealth and a refuge for scholars dring the middle ages.

That is more true of Ireland than Great Britain though. The Romans first introduced Christianity to Britain, but of course it declined under the Germanic invasions. The pattern of religious conversion in Great Britain, especially England, is one of persuasion and politics. The thing we must remember though is that the conversion process didn't happen over night. There is evidence to suggest that Christianity existed alongside paganism in certain cases, with the individuals involved seemingly committed to both.

This isn't all that strange when one realises that many pagans would have approached Christianity from a pagan perspective i.e. Christ was another god to add to their pantheon.