The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

[Silme]

Hi, I'm new here (joined today) but not a new fan - I read LOTR for the first time more than 20 years ago.... Been in love with it ever since, and have read Silmarillion etc. many times, too. Anyway, I've now seen the LOTR movie twice, and think it's quite good, especially visually although I don't like all the changes PJ has made. Now about the Bridge of Khazad-dûm-scene.... It has seemed to me that in the movie the balrog doesn't actually drag Gandalf to the pit, it just falls him off the bridge with it's whip, and Gandalf falls simply 'cos he can't manage to keep hold of the bridge. A minor thing, I know, but IMHO it makes Gandalf seem weak. What does everyone think?

There - my first post here!! :)

[Kuduk]

Welcome Silme! I'm new too! (so Welcome to me too! ;))
Anyway, I think that while the movie only shows the whip wrapping around Gandalf's legs and dragging him over the edge, the implication is that the whip (with the Balrog still holding on) is still wrapped around his legs even while he is gripping (and losing his grip). I don't think Gandalf's inability to withstand the weight and strength of a Balrog while holding onto a rocky ledge with his fingers reflects poorly on the wizard. After all, even in the book, Gandalf is thrown down the steps leading from Balin's Tomb in his initial encounter with an unspecified evil which would turn out to be the Balrog.;)

[WarriorMay]

Welcome! I hope you enjoy it here.

[Rian]

I will admit that was one scene PJ got correct.

"But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasping vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and was gone."

- The Fellowship of the Ring, Book two, Chapter 5

[Silme]

Yes, it's a great scene alright :) What I meant was - I've always got the impression from the book that the balrog *dragged* Gandalf down, whereas in the movie it only makes him loose his footing on the bridge.... But that may well be what JRRT meant, and I've got it wrong. Oh well.... I did like the balrog, and the cave troll as well, but think that the battle at the Chamber went on a little bit too long.

[Deathknell]

This is another example of saving money, in my opinion. To have managed 15 Orcs and an Orc-chieftan (as in the book), probably using digital enhancements, might have been logistically more difficult, or more expensive, than to place a single CGI cave troll in the room and have all the Fellowship fight just him. It was convincing, and just as scary; true, not exactly as Tolkien wrote it, but it it's own way I think it communicated the gravity of the scene just as well as the book. And, they left in the very important part where Frodo gets whacked by the troll but is saved by the mithril coat.

[bunnywhippit]

I loved this part of the film. It was quite intense, but did anyone else feel that Gandalf seemed to let go/dragged off the bridge with a force? It wasn't just slip, slip, scrambling to grab hold then down he goes, was it? More of a yank. lol. That just struck me as quite interesting.

Silme, it never occured to me that Gandalf couldn't managed to keep a hold on the bridge - for whatever reason, weakness etc. I suppose, that's quite a plausible thought. He had been through quite a lot (esp. in the book), so maybe that was a factor? The book doesn't really give a truly clearcut version either. Was the whip still holding onto him/ did it only knock him off balance? I suppose it's open to your own interpertation.

[apan14]

Originally posted by Harad
Silme,

I saw it exactly as you saw it...and I didnt like it.

It is clear if you measure in your mind the time after the whip knocks him over that the Balrog falls way down the chasm, much longer than the length of any real whip. Then after the Balrog is "way gone," Gandalf falls.

Maybe the Balrog has an EXTREMELY stretchable whip that becomes almost invisible as it lengthens, but I think we actually see the whip come off of Gandalf well before he falls.

Furthermore, if there is a big delay between the Balrog falling and Gandalf falling (its probably for cinematic purposes so that Gandalf can say dramatically "Fly you fools" without the indignity of having a Balrog hanging on him) then how does Gandalf catch up with the Balrog to fight him. Maybe they just land near each at the bottom of the bottomless pit?


furthermore, it would look kind of silly if Balrog was hanging on to Gandalf, while he was saying "fly you fools". I mean, how much does Balrog weigh theoretically?

[Herllich]

Hey,

this is my first post so go gently :)

The scene of Khazad Dum in the film seemed to remind me of the Obi Wan Kenobi death scene in the first ( or 4th now I guess ) StarWars film.

Maybe he was destined to fall to the bottom of the pit just as fate transpired that Obi Wan was to be slain by Darth Vador.
Maybe J R R Tolkien had it in mind for his character Gandalf that he should return from beyond the grave more powerful than ever as we see in the second book when he disposes of Saruman the White. It seems that the way Peter Jackson has portrayed it that Gandalf himself realises this and makes a remarkably feeble effort at climbing back up.

Who knows???

Anyway, that was the way it looked like in the film as Peter Jackson scripted it.

[Eonwe]

what a balrog weighs depends on if it has wings or not. And if it has wings, why did it fall?:D

[Herllich]

perhaps he was to be going out to a fancy dress party that very same evening!!

[apan14]

Originally posted by Eonwe
what a balrog weighs depends on if it has wings or not. And if it has wings, why did it fall?:D


cuz he didn't drink "RED BULL".

Ironically Balrog looked like a "Red Bull" but couldn't fly. Maybe Red Bull doesn't give you wings. =)

[bunnywhippit]

apan, Harad - LMAO! You guys crack me up. :D And the "post office", that's one i've never heard before. I rather like that. lol.

Hello Herllich! Just wanted to say hello to the fellow Scot :) I like that added thought of the Gandalf-suicide, it adds another dimension to it all. It's certainly a brain teaser, this whole affair. :)

[Silme]

Geeez.... I've never thought that affair from this Gandalf semi-suicide angle before! Certainly adds all new dimensions to it.... Are there any hints in the book that Gandalf knew his fate/destiny from beforehand? At least Aragorn had some premonition as he warned Gandalf of entering Moria... And this is going off topic, but does Gandalf KNOW things?? When he says after the battle at the Chamber "Not yet!" when Aragorn thinks Frodo is dead, I've always got the impression that Gandalf knows Frodo was not "supposed" to die at that point....

[Tar-Palantir]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harad
I don't buy that Gandalf in any sense planned to snuff it, but that he was WILLING to sacrifice himself to enable the Quest to continue.

How did Aragorn know that Gandalf in particular was at risk in Moria? We are not told, but IMO it was because Aragorn (and Gandalf) knew that the Balrog was there and that only Gandalf could stand up to it, and at great risk to himself.

After the Orc-Chieftan injures Frodo:

"I am all right," gasped Frodo, "I can walk. Put me down."
Aragorn nearly dropped him in his amazement. 'I thought you were dead," he cried.
"Not yet!" said Gandalf...

Not necessarily advanced knowledge by Gandalf. [/QUO

Oh Harad my friend.....you just proved it. :) I still hold that Gandalf knew (or sensed) that he was gonna die in Moria. He had to die in Moria.

[Herllich]

In the book Gandalf tells the fellowship to 'fly' and then he falls to his apparent death.

Maybe he was trying to save the company but it just has a touch of mystery surrounding it. He falls knowing that he will probably die....BUT also in the knowledge that the company will allowed to escape now the Balrog is out of the picture.

For a man ( read all powerful wizard ) you would expect him to be able to conjure up some sort of magic to lift himself up and to entangle the pesty Balrog once and for all - but he must have thought if he fell with it, it would stop it returning to the bain of the company. (phew - long winded sentence!)

IF, as Harad suggested, he wanted to save the fellowship by falling to his doom then does this not implicitly imply suicide.......

just my humble opinion though!

Hail to the fellow Scots!! :)

[Greenwood]

What about the simplest explanation of all -- Gandalf was exhausted from his confrontation with the Balrog and simply could not hang on or pull himself up from the edge of the broken bridge?

[Herllich]

There is a difference between "falling to his doom as a consequence of saving the Fellowship" which I believe, and "saving the Fellowship as a consequence of falling to him doom," the "semi-suicide" hypothesis.

Both, arguably are true. He saves the fellowship - he falls. He falls - he saves the fellowship. He saves them twice!! - what a guy!!

In the second instance by falling he saves the fellowship by scaring the Balrog away once they hit the bottom as told in the Two Towers.

ANYWAY......I dont believe Tolkien would have anticipated this kind of response. I dont reckon for a moment he meant the "semi suicide" idea.

The idea only came to my mind when watching the film. In the book it never occured to me but when thinking about it sort of makes sense.

[lilhobo]

DONT call me Shirley !!! goddamit!! :D

isnt ist amazing that gandalf knows so much about gollum "having important things to do before all this is end"....

btw, remember it told the dammed balrog with wings to "fly you FOOL" :D

[lilhobo]

now you KNOW my experiment :D

[Silme]

Lilhobo,
I had forgotten that Gandalf seemed to know about Gollums role in the end, but he does say "the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least". This certainly gives me the impression that Gandalf knows something about the things that are going to happen. But he doesn't seem to know everything - sorry Harad, I don't think Gandalf knew about the Balrog. He does say "A Balrog. Now I understand." and that does sound like he didn't expect it..... But how did Aragorn know? Uh huh, my head hurts :rolleyes:

[DGoeij]

After the first time watching the movie I saw this thread, but I had no clear memory of the encounter with the Balrog. I saw it again last friday and clearly Gandalf is tackled by the whip, after the Balrog fell down with the broken bridge. Then the whip lets go and the Balrog dissapears out of sight. Gandalf tries to pull himself up, can't, and with some effort urges the fellowship to fly. After that he falls off the bridge.

From the book I still have the impression that the whip remains around Gandalfs knees when he hangs on to the bridge. Not a detail to have a debate about, IMHO.

I remember that same remark. I thought Galadriel or Celeborn said that, but in FOTR, chapter The Mirror of Galdriel, they only mention their suspicions of something dreadfull in the Mines of Moria. Not this excact quote.

here it is, Gandalf himself says that:
FOTR, chapter A Journey in the dark, just before they enter the room where they find Balin's tomb.
(typing errors on my account)
>>>>The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: They delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from wich they fled, Durin's Bane.<<<<

And shortly after that, the fellowship discovers that Durin's Bane in fact is a Balrog. Ouch.

[DGoeij]

LOL. You're right about that. To imagine Ian McKellen with that Balrog dangling under him like some sort of wind-up toy. Not something that would add to the effect of the moment.:p

I don't feel Gandalf choose to 'die' in Moria. He may have accepted his faith at that moment, but I don't think he deliberately went for it.

[Silme]

Harad,

I agree with you on that - Gandalf (and Aragorn) knew there was *something* evil in Moria, but not necessarily that it was a Balrog. That's quite clear on the book.

[Eonwe]

Hi Silme

I always thought of Gandalf saying Fly you Fools! as he was falling...


Sorta like

FLLLYYYY Yooooouuuu foooooools!

[Eonwe]

they did! He was making a snow angel!

[DGoeij]

LOL. I thought he went sky-diving, by the way he held his arms and legs.
I think the close-up as it was in the movie wasn't bad either, but the combination of the tekst with Ian McK allready falling would have worked. At least better than the snow-angel. *grinning*

[Silme]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Hi Silme

I always thought of Gandalf saying Fly you Fools! as he was falling...


Sorta like

FLLLYYYY Yooooouuuu foooooools!

That's exactly what how I've imagined it, too!!

[ReadWryt]

It's sad that it would probably be impossible to relate what Tolkien had wanted this scene to be in the context of Gandalf's part of the story. Heck, it elluded me in the book...I had it backward and thought that he was sacrificing himself and that his "Death" was a chance to shed his self conscious humility, but Tolkien meant it to be Gandalf GAINING humility and sacrificing himself upon his realization that HE was not crucial to the success of the Fellowship. All in all I thought that the acting and photography was spectacular in this scene though, as good as it could be and still keep the action moving.

The only thing that bugged me was the obviously hand animated Whip the Balrog had, but that was just fine...I realise that not everyone would notice and it was such a small thing in the grand scheme. My friend Mark the Playstation Addict (Who has never read the books) said that he didn't like the Balrog because it reminded him of something he would see in Final Fantasy...but then when asked what he thinks of the animation and cut scenes in the Final Fantasy games he said he thought they were great:eek:

...as he and I are living proof, there is no pleasing some folks 100%, ever...

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Silme
Harad,

I agree with you on that - Gandalf (and Aragorn) knew there was *something* evil in Moria, but not necessarily that it was a Balrog. That's quite clear on the book.

Though they knew something evil was in Moria, Gandalf's comment about "understanding" that it was a Balrog came from having his door-closing spell counteracted...What created being in all ME could have matched an Istari's power?? When the Balrog revealed himself, Gandalf realised that that power came from an evil Maia..

RW,

I don't fully understand your understanding of the book's version...Gandalf had no time to save himself (unless he could have cast a levitating spell, but I believe that he and the Balrog were fighting all the way down). The Balrog's whip took him into the abyss.

In the movie, the whip took him and then he hung there first before he dropped. The whether to save himself or not is really only a movie issue, not a book issue.

[Harad]

Thorin,

You may want to get out the nitro, but I agree with you...in one of my (many) deleted posts, I mentioned that I thought for cinematic reasons, Gandalf hung around after the Balrog fell, so PJ could focus on his face during "Fly you fools," without the indignity of a Balrog hanging around his knees. I dont believe it had ANYTHING to do with Gandalf choosing to fall.

[Thorin]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rigel]

Hello, this is my first post here...

I'd like to explain why Gandalf doesn't feel the need to save himself from the free fall with tha Balrog.

First of all : tha Balrog is a very, VERY powerful creature in Tolkien Mithology. Balrogs are so powerful that they don't actually obey Sauron (maybe only if they feel fit to do so) and serve only Morgoth, their banished master. (for those who haven't read the Silmarillon, Morgoth is what we can call the Supreme Lord of Darkness, since the once named Melkor is a Valar, while Sauron is "only" a Maiar, thus his servant)

Gandalf cannot attempt to use his magic to battle the Balrog while the fellowship is still in Moria, since, as he tells ater when he rejoins Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, the battle between him and the ancient evil continued in the depths of Moria for days, and eventually ripped the entire mounatin apart, thus making Moria collapse on itself.

This is also why Gandalf prefers to make the Balrog fall from the bridge: to give enough time for him and his fellowship to escape.

[Harad]

Welcome Rigel,

The movie and the book are somewhat different with regards to Gandalf's fall. In the book there is no delay between the Balrog's fall and Gandalf's. Gandalf is literally dragged by the Balrog's whip into the chasm. In the movie the Balrog and his whip are out of sight before Gandalf falls, hence the confusion in the movie.

The book give no indication that Gandalf dives in after the Balrog to finish him off. Rather that had he been able to escape cleanly, he would have.