Stature or Form of Sauron in 3rd Age

[pgt]

Can anybody provide guidance on this one? I've looked but find little to no reference on the subject. But this guy has the titular role!

The 2 times I'm curious about are when Sauron seems to figure prominently in this age. That is at it's beginning and end or thereabouts. 1) final battle of the last alliance where he strikes down GIl Galid and Elendil and is then downed by Isildur where he looses his finger etc. and then 2) the quest to destroy the ring and war of the ring.

There was also the time he was run out of Guldur but that was only relayed 3rd party and I'm guessing his form to be same/similar to the form he remained in through the end of the 3rd age and his destruction.

1. I presume he was at the battle and dressed accordingly. Also that he was probably of large stature or at least a capable warrior. The movie has him as a giant. Did PJ get it right or overdo it? Any references to his appearance at that time in any of the books?

2. At the end of the 3rd age he plays more of a behind the scenes shot caller. He doesn't really come forth and interact with any of the characters save one: Pippin. Pippin conveys little if anything as to his appearance. (in fact I thought the few words he uttered to Saruman er Pippin were somewhat informal for someone of such self-importance) Input?

PS: I do recall that way back when in previous ages as mentioned in the Sil, that he did take different shapes at times. But as they say, that was then, this is now. Since it took him a very loooong time to take a form again after being vanguished by Isildur I dont' get the idea that he changes shapes at the snap of a finger (anymore). Perhaps some of his power was lost or changed or vested in the ring by then... who knows.

***Another thread on this same topic has been merged with this one effective 02/06/02***
Grond

[Elanor2]

Hi,

What I remember from the Sil (sorry, I do not have the books in front of my PC now), Sauron could adopt any form he wanted, up to a certain limit. After Morgoth was defeated, he took a pleasant form to try to lure elves and humans into believing that he had really changed hart and was good again. So I do not think that he was a giant then.

However, if I remember well, after the forging of the ring, the men from Numenor came to give battle to him in ME, but he saw that he could not win so he pretended again to submit and was taken prisoner to Numenor. There, over some thousand years he corrupted the monarchy until they disobeyed the Valar and tried to conquer Aman.

Sauron remaind in Numenor as the Valars relinquished their power to Eru so that he could change the shape or Arda, drowning Numenor and making Aman inaccesible to humans. His body was destroyed when Numenor went under, and after that he took quite some time to get into shape again. And this time he could not longer take pleasant shapes to lure people, but only horrid ones. Of course, powerful ones as well as horrid.

Regards. Elanor2

[Walter]

For a post without "cheating" Your's is remarkably well done Elanor :D

I haven't found any references about Sauron appearing in a physical form after the battle of Dagorlad - at least not in the LotR or the Sil, so I simply assumed he had none - except for his appearance as "The (lidless) Eye" on several occasions. And I also thought that this was what Pippin saw. And whenever something has to get done that requires a physical presence it is done by the Nazgûl...

Of course I may be wrong, maybe someone with a more profound background can help some more...

[Elanor2]

True. The only reference of Sauron "getting shape" again is when Bilbo found the ring. That time Sauron was the Nigromant in Dol Guldur (I hope I got the name right) at the south of the Mirkwood. The White coucil thought that he was one of the Nazgul, but Gandalf discovered that it was Sauron himself. However, they do not mention how, or what shape he was in at the time. Nigromant is not specific enough.

[Gandalf714]

I think you mean necromancer Elanor2, but like you I don't have my FOTR in front of me. As to his shape, I don't recall any mention of his looks at the time of the end of 3rd Age. He may however have had a body, at the end of FOTR Frodo felt like a finger was reaching out to him.

[Ragnarok]

Sauron was a Maiar. The most powerful one. (I think) He could take the shape of many things, wolf and human-giant were the most likely. Sauron mustve been in physical form during the Battle of Oroduin. Gil-galad and Elendil werent attacking a big eye. :p I think he was like PJ showed him. Bigger than a normal human, clad in some kind of armour that looks scary.

BTW Elanor2, it's Necromancer. Not Nigromant, hehe. :) (A necromancer was a magician that could raise the dead at his will. What a cool dude.)

[Walter]

Ragnarok: You are correct that Sauron was a Maia, and as such a spirit rather than a creature, who at first could assume various physical forms to his liking. However it always seemed to take a while until he could regain another physical form after his "body" died. Therefor I purposely wrote: I haven't found any references about Sauron appearing in a physical form after the battle of Dagorlad

Also please keep in mind that those of us who don't have English as our first language - like myself and probably El also - might have read the books in our native language where many of the names have been changed in the translations (e.g. Shelob is named Kankra in the german issue) so it will happen at times that one accidently makes such a mistake like El with the "Necromancer"...

If You nonetheless want to help a member correct such a "mistake" try a subtle hint (like I did at the beginning of my posting where I tried to hint that Maiar is plural and the singular form of it is Maia) ;)

[Elanor2]

Necromancer. Right. I think that I used the spanish translation, nor the correct English name.

[Elanor2]

Hi Walter. Wie gets dir?

If "Kankra" is the German name for Shelob, in Spanish is Ella-Laraña (She-TheSpider).

Ich hoffe das, wann mein Deutsch besser geworden ist, kann ich Der Herren des Ringes in Deutsch lesen.

Elanor2

[Cian]

Gollum describes Sauron's "hand" in LotR, but for better 'evidence' of a Third Age (ultimately) physical Sauron, Tolkien's Letters are the thing. The Prof. is very consistent in this regard in his various letters. In one quote JRRT states that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when vanquished; another (minimally) describes Saurons "physical" form:

Tolkien on Sauron, the context is the "Palantír struggle" with Aragorn, a Third Age event of course. JRRT explains first that Aragorn was the rightful owner, and:

"Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." JRRT

[Dengen-Goroth]

PJ used art depicting Melkor, not Sauron, to show him in FoTR. Sauron could no longer attain a fair shape after the fall of Numenor. He was not the most powerful of Maia. He was unable to take a true form by the war of the ring because he placed to much power into the One. He did have a physical form during the battle, though doubt he actually came out and fought. He basically hurled stones from Barad-Dur.

[LadyEowyn]

Ragnarok-

A necromancer isn't a person. It's the practice of communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future. (supposedly) In other words, it's Black magic. :)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
PJ used art depicting Melkor, not Sauron, to show him in FoTR. Sauron could no longer attain a fair shape after the fall of Numenor. He was not the most powerful of Maia. He was unable to take a true form by the war of the ring because he placed to much power into the One. He did have a physical form during the battle, though doubt he actually came out and fought. He basically hurled stones from Barad-Dur. Dengen, as an astute student of Tolkien, I'm sure you realize that Sauron came down from the Barad-dur and wrestled with Elendil and Gil-galad. I don't have my book in front of me either, but know that Sauron couldn't take a form that was ever again pleasant to behold, but I'm sure that would make his form all the more terribly and awe inspiring. He would have had to be exceptionally strong to vanquish both Gil-galad and Elendil... so in this one, I'm not so sure that PJ would have been far off. Maybe 9 or 10 feet instead of 20.;)

[LadyEowyn]

Grond-

You have once again posted exactly (Well, not exactly but pretty close) what I was about to post. You seem to be a faster typer then I am.=)
If you keep this up, I'll never get to post again.=)

[Bucky]

Regardless of the movie version, of course Sauron had a body at the end of the third age.
Gollum said that he only had nine fingers but that was enough.

It says in Akallabeth that Sauron could not take a pleasant shape after the drowning of Numenor.
He formed a new shape...and the eye of Sauron few could endur.

So, in the 3rd age, he still has the eye; he's probably in the same form as prior to his defeat in the 2nd age.

And, after Pippin looks in the palantir, he says 'the winged shapes grew & filled all the globe...then HE came'. Sounds like a form to me.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
He was not the most powerful of Maia. He was unable to take a true form by the war of the ring because he placed to much power into the One.

Tolkien (minimally) describes the act of self-incarnation in Letters and makes no mention of the loss of the Ring as a hindrance to a physical form ... he does make the statement that it took Sauron longer to re-build after the Last Alliance (than after the fall of Númenor) but again, the Ring is not mentioned as the possible "reason", but rather that: "... each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination." JRRT.

In fact Tolkien ends the 'explanation' (the "re-building" of form of Sauron) by saying: "The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." Note after destruction of Ring, not loss.

In the quote I gave earlier Tolkien basically says that Sauron had the physical form of a Man (in a Third Age context).

[pgt]

Thank you all very much!

[Úlairi]

Cian is correct in saying that Gollum did describe Sauron's hand. In truth he does. In the Two Towers, at the Ash mountains (the mountains surrounding Mordor) Gollum says that there are four fingers on 'The Black Hand'. I believe that Sauron CAN take physical shape in LOTR yet taking the form of the 'Great Eye' is a preferred form and with that form he can see farther and can monitor the whereabouts of the Ring whenever Frodo puts it on. Remeber when, at the end of FOTR, Frodo puts on the Ring to get away from Boromir when he reaches the top of a mountain that overlooks Mordor and at once Sauron captures his gaze with the Great Eye.

[lilhobo]

dont you this JRR could have used the BIG RED EYE as a metaphor rather than a "real" form for Sauron???

as an all seeing being rather than an eyeball floating around???

coz what good is a ring if u have no fingers??/

[Bucky]

Tolkien says, in The Silmarillion, in Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:

'There (Barad-Dur) now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape, and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power, and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure'

It was in this form that he fought & was defeated by The Last Alliance & the ring was cut off by Isildur. Gollum certainly saw that missing finger as is previously stated.

However, I seriously doubt Sauron was able to change (in the post Numenor days) from a manly form as The Dark Lord to a big eye.
I strongly suspect that his form as a Dark Lord post Numenor was one with only one eye.

[Elanor2]

I tend to go more in the other direction. I think that the Great Eye is more the visualisation of Sauron's mind, searching and looking into other people's minds, as Frodo, Galadriel and Pippin (through the Palantir) perceive it. I think that his physical form was more or less human, with 4 fingers, as Gollum describes.

But I also think that without the Ring, he could not be completely formed, so his projections are a bit ghostly, like the smoke hand at the end, and so on.

[Cian]

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." JRRT 1957

I must disagree (respectfully :)) that without the Ring Sauron could not be fully formed. My reasons are culled from the following quote (among others) posted below for reference.

In the following Tolkien somewhat explains the 'real' nature of the self-incarnate ("physical actuality" not vision & etc, "destructible like other physical organisms", and so forth) ... he goes on to say that Sauron took a long while to "rebuild" after the LA, thus the implication would seem to be that he simply rebuilt, but that it took a long time.

The Prof. adds that it took longer (after the LA), than it had after Númenor's fall. And if I say a 2nd batch of cookies took longer than the first, for example, or a second set of tennis took longer, the natural reaction to this info is that the 2nd X was completed, albeit one may naturally ask "why longer"? Tolkien goes, or attempts to go, into that within the parenthetical digression that immediately follows, with "each building-up ..." and so on. Nothing about the loss of the Ring affecting Saurons ultimate ability to "reform" though, and the One gets mention next in this "mythological" (not scientific) explanation ~ JRRT saying that the impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring is sufficiently clear. Indeed, if it were impossible to rebuild after the Rings loss, then JRRT's opening statement that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when vanquished would be awkward, considering the end of LotR.

Tolkien's literary Sauron is quite a different thing: a shadowy figure yes, a master stroke to greatly evoke terror in the minds eye of the reader. But despite the vagueness, the wonderful use of "the Eye", I think that Sauron (ultimately) can be as "physical" as he was against Gilgalad and Elendil, the self-incarnate Third Age counterpart to the physical Morgoth, who himself could be wounded and go lame of foot as a result.

Tolkien's choice of terminology, if not overly-detailed (as one would expect to this) speaks to a physical being, an "incarnate" daemon of a Mythic Age, no longer able to rebuild his form as history passes on to the dominion of Men, waning by degrees away from the Mythic.

"It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss if from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." JRRT 1957

[Walter]

I feel tempted to say that this is - just another - excellent posting of Cian, but of course I will refrain from it, because s/he would - again - just reply that this was an easy task and about every Tom, **** and Harry would come up with such a posting if they had only so much as sticked their nose into any one of Tolkien's books for a little while... ;)

[Cian]

LoL & Cheers Walter! Just my cookie-inspired opinion.

he-Kian :)

[Urylia]

What species is Suron...was he an elf, a man, a wizard, a hobbit, what was he?
My friend is betting on a wizard, me i'm just confused.

[Gothmog]

Sauron is a Maia. one of the Ainur who were before the creation of Arda who then come down into it. The Valar and the Maiar are both Ainur but of greater or lesser power.

The Istari or Wizards are also Maia, but they were enemies of Sauron.

So your friend is on the right lines. Both the Istari and Sauron were of the same order of being.

In order of being (or power)
Valar
Maiar
Elf
Mortal(Man, Dwarf, Hobbit etc.)

hope that is of some help.

[Urylia]

ok...thank you very much...i understand now
I have some serious reading to do before i post any more stupid questions...

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Urylia
ok...thank you very much...i understand now
I have some serious reading to do before i post any more stupid questions...


You should read the sil!!!:D :)

[Lantarion]

Yes, please do, Urylia. It is extremely informative on the matters of Middle-Earth, and indeed the rest of the World (Arda), as well as being the most incredible piece of beautiful mythology you have ever encompassed. Forget the Kalevala, the Eddas and the fairy stories of old; The Silmariliion is the lord of all myhtology. Compared to thr Sil, the plot of the LotR is soap opera! (Ok, not quite, but you see I'm serious.)
Anyway, welcome to the forum! :)

[Diabless]

Yes, But was Sauron at the time of Frodo and Sam. Was he a feasible red Eye, a spiritual one, was he a shadow?

[Grond]

In LotR, Gollum speaks of Sauron with only nine fingers. That would indicate to me that Sauron had again taken a physical form (else how would Gollum have known he had only nine finger?) How could he wield his powers and use that Palantar without some form of physical existence?

The books (from LotR - Sil - Unfinsished Tales - Histories of Middle-earth) make it clear that Sauron could still assume a physical form, just never one that was again fair in appearance. (He appeared in fair form to the Elves of Eregion when seducing them into forging the Rings of Power in the Second Age.)

He is symbolized by a red, lidless eye. All seeing, never sleeping, always searching.

[Brent]

I recall from my distant readings that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's finger BUT that it was Gil-galad and Elendil who overcame him. It was not Isildur who slew Sauron.

[Lantarion]

But I think Sauron was vanquished when the Ring was wrenched from his hand by the shards of Narsil, because the schock of losing so much power and strength in a hundredth of a second must have some kind of an effect on the wielder (who had probably had it on his finger for hundreds of years!). When you say 'Gil-galad and Elendil overcame him', I agree, but they simply sort of wounded him or something, so Isildur had the chance to smite him. And I'm not sure if Sauron could be killed simply by slashing at him with a dirty great sword. Ah, but his body might.. Oh well. :rolleyes:
:)

[Wood Elf]

Cool thread, I just read and pick up all this information by you really smart people who know all this stuff. :)