A problem with the age of elves (or more accurate their ageing)

[jarvig13]

Elves are immortal. Therefore they can become let’s say 1 mio. years old (and of cause even more). But someone like Galadriel is about 6.000 years old and looks – well not old – but mature. On the other side someone like Legolas is about 3.000 years old and looks young. In other words it looks like elves do age. But if they looks mature (or old) at the age of 10.000 they must look very, very, very, very old at the age of 100.000. Now of cause you can’t blame Tolkien this, because he could easily say that the timeframe of his universe (from when elves arrived to Arda to the end of LotR) do not account for this problem. But logical there is a problem.
One could say that at the age of 10.000 elves do not age anymore, but to me that is a ridiculous answer – its just fits to good whit the span of time in Tolkiens universe. Why could they not stop ageing at the age of 50.000.

Does anyone have a better answer?

Sorry about my English but I’m from Denmark. And even though I do speak English very well I do not write just as good.
:(

[Lantarion]

I don't think Elves physically age in any way, no matter how old they are (except for Cirdan, he's a freak of nature with his 'long, grey beard':)) They all look young, about 20-25 in today's human ageing.
I think you write splendid English, Jarvig. Don't worry about it, there are very very very few people on this forum who can spell at all; and they're all english- speakers! :) Welcome.

[Tyaronumen]

Elves *do* bear signs of age... but not physically... they bear the age of the world in their spirits... this is why an Elda such as Galadriel, mighty among the Noldor and witness to many of the sorrows of the world, might seem in some way 'middle-aged'...

Anyhow, I don't recall seeing Legolas' age given anywhere authoritatively as 3,000...?

[Eol of Doriath]

From my understanding, Tolkien never really through beyond the Third Age. Since it appears that each age only last for a several thousand years, I am sure he never really thought about the aging beyond Several ten of thousands of years because the earth would cycle after a period of time, and since *most* elves do not return, six thousand years is not doing too bad.

The exceptions are Glorifeld and another elf....cannot recall who it is at the time.

[J'ohn]

Perhaps you were thinking of Luthien, Eol?
Oh, and Glorfindel of Rivendell has not been confirmed to be the same one that appears in the Silmarillion, so we can't know that he returned from Valinor, for sure...I think...

Anyway, that was off topic...
I think that elves are not immortal per se, but rather live terribly long...Think of that text in the Silmarillion..."...neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries..."
Agreed, a million years is a terribly long time span, but it's finite.

That said, I think that elves alter their external characteristics over the ages... a wrinkle here and there, some gray threads of hair, etc. But I think this rather reflects their inner age, their maturity. Surely, Galadriel has seen lots of things, so it's almost expected that she looks older than a young elf.

After all, we don't know for how long time elves are considered to be "children"...when does one elf mature? If the life span of an elf is indeed a million years, then all the elves we read about are considered babies!:)

Oh, and Jarvig, don't worry...your english is very good!

SBS:)

[Beorn]

It's can be argued either way as to immortality, but we just say they're immortal. Anyway, I've not a direct quote, but the elves live as long as the earth is there. They are bound to the earth, which is why they are skilled in blending in, and in general the ways of nature.

Anyway, elves are said to become more beatiful with age...So, whether or not they look 'mature' they still grow more beatiful. And, where did you find the word 'mature' to describe Galadriel? Perhaps it was a translation problem...

[Gandalf714]

Elves must be immortal,one exempt from death, since death is given as a "gift" to men from illuvitar. The gift to die and so leave the earth. I don't have my Sil in front of me so I can't give the exact quote. From there it can be infered that the elves didn't recieve that gift.

[Eol of Doriath]

The elves are not immortal. Immortalty implies that one cannot and will not die. Since elves are subject to death, they cannot be immortal.
"It is with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it... Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poingant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief( and to both these seeming deaths they are *subject*)"(Silmarillion 42 last paragraph).

They are not immortal, they just an insanely long time....

on another tangent...

When they[elves] died an "untimely" death ie slain by a sword, Feanor, grief as in Mirel, do they still go to the halls of mandos? This may be mentioned somewhere, but I cannot recall it forsay.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Eol of Doriath
The elves are not immortal. Immortalty implies that one cannot and will not die. Since elves are subject to death, they cannot be immortal.


They are not immortal, they just an insanely long time....

on another tangent...

When they[elves] died an "untimely" death ie slain by a sword, Feanor, grief as in Mirel, do they still go to the halls of mandos? This may be mentioned somewhere, but I cannot recall it forsay.

They don't just live an insanely long time. Their fate is bound to the world and the fate of the world is theirs.

For all intents and purposes, they are indeed immortal, although it is definitely possible to debate about the specific terminology used... Obviously, the very concept of immortality fails utterly in the face of various ideas about a finite and bounded universe, so say rather that the Quendi live, and do not perish, save that they are slain or overcome by grief.

As for the fate of the elves who die... well, it is known that Feanor is in the Halls of Mandos because there is a statement in the Silmarillion to that effect... don't have my books in front of me to quote, I am afraid. My understanding is that all of the elves go to the Halls when they perish. It seems obvious that some of them must be released from time to time, since we are told in the Silmarillion after the death of Finrod Felagund that Finrod walks beside his father Finarfin (who was not dead, but rather ruled that remnant of the Noldor who remained in Aman)...

[Eol of Doriath]

Thanks....

[Arathin]

Actually the term immortal, reverse I believe to only not being able to die from age or sickness. Now on that tangant, some people would gladly agrue the point that grief is a sickness. But for all intensive prepouses, lets just say that grief is NOT a form of sickness.


And Jarvig your English is very good. As you can see, I can't spell either, and I have always lived in the U.S. Now that is sad.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by J'ohn
Perhaps you were thinking of Luthien, Eol?
Oh, and Glorfindel of Rivendell has not been confirmed to be the same one that appears in the Silmarillion, so we can't know that he returned from Valinor, for sure...I think...

I think he might have meant Cirdan. Also, though not Tolkien's original intention, the Glorfindel of Gondolin is the Glorindel of LoTR reincarnated. The Elves do have the chance to come back again (Luthien and Beren did it).

As Mike B said, the elves age with the earth until they tire and grow weary and go west to Valinor. And reiterating what Tyaronumen and Arathin were saying, the elves are immortal in the sense that they do not die from sickness and they live as long as the earth exists. They can be slain in battle and from there they go to the Hall of Mandos to decide their fate (To stay in Valinor or be reincarnated).

[ReadWryt]

What I'm interested in about the nature of the life of Elves is what Tolkien refered to as "Serial Mortality". When an Elf comes back after being killed, do they keep any of their memory?

[Arathin]

That is a very good question, and one that I would like an answer to as well. I think that they probably do because of the already immortal statis of their beings. (This is only my opinion. I have no evidence either way.)

[Lantarion]

I agree, Tyaronumen, that Elves age spiritually: but I was indeed speaking of physical ageing, ie. wrinkles, bad bones, etc.

I think that when an Elf dies (I haven't read Letters or HoMe, yet) his spirit is reincarnated in another (newborn?) Elf; I like to think that they keep their knowledge, but not their memory. On the other hand, without existing memory how do they remember their knowledge? Aargh! :)
No, but it would be rational for the Elf in question to start "anew" when he is transported into a new body post-mortem. Speaking of which, they would have to 're-inhabit' the body of a baby-Elf to begin their life again. But I don't believe Tolkien gives any examples or descriptios of Elf-children! :confused:

[Cian]

It can be seen with the concept of re-birth (as reincarnation) that Tolkien desired a "recapturing", explaining that, as an Elf Child grows up (he or she) recaptures the memory of its previous life.

Reincarnation through re-birth was eventually abandoned (as far as we have written record), and the 'last' idea is apparently that the Elven former body was restored, if desired, by the Valar.

We might look to the general concept that the Elvish fëa retained a memory or imprint of its hröa, its 'former house', a memory so powerful and precise that the reconstruction of an identical body could proceed from it. Christopher Tolkien's error in an earlier conclusion (which he corrected) seems to be more about whether the fëa itself was allowed or enabled to reconstitute its house. His correction seems to be that, barring mention of the possibility of enabled fëa (in the late Glorfindel essays), it would seem that his father decided reincarnation by the Valar was the thing, which was described ~ after his purging of any guilt and release from Mandos, Manwë "restored" Glorfindel. Glorfindel was then a living incarnate person, and had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar.

"Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice: Gondolin was destroyed, and all his kin had persished, and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living. But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwë." JRRT Last Writings

[Legolas_lover12]

someone said "when do elves mature?" well, if they're anything like us................................;) :D ;)