Chapter Three - A Short Rest

[baragund]

It's Wednesday!! :) Time for the next chapter...


In this chapter we see the first description of Elves. So very different to how they are described in The Silmarillion or even LOTR. They sit in trees singing nonsense songs. They laugh and joke and carry on like a bunch of children. They seem to be most interested in eating, drinking and telling stories yet there is a hint of something more about them, like how they seem to already know all about Bilbo and the Dwarves and their mission, and how they “know what is going on among the peoples of the land, as quick as water flows, or quicker”.

Nevertheless, it’s such a departure from the stuck-up sourpusses or the stiflingly formal nobles that are in The Silmarillion! Can you imagine a Feanor or a Fingolfin sitting in a tree singing tra-la-la-lolly? :p

How does one reconcile the two different images of the Elves between The Hobbit and the mythology? I like to think Tolkien intentionally “dumbed down” the Elves in The Hobbit to better suit his target audience which are children.

On a different note, don’t you just love the description of Elrond and his house:

He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

His house was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Evil things did not come into that valley.

Another question for Walter: Were Elrond and the references to Gondolin, “the wars of the goblins and elves”, “the first men of the North”, “before the beginning of History” and the like in the original edition of The Hobbit? Each of those things existed in the mythology as it existed in 1930.


Finally, what do Elves smell like? "Hmmm, It smells like Elves", Bilbo says as he and the Dwarves make their way down the valley toward Rivendell. Old Spice? Aqua Velva? :D

[Wraithguard]

Glad I noticed the thread when I did else we'd have 2 on our hands. I'll post some questions tomorrow since I have all day to finish the chapter because Wraithguard ate moldy hamburger buns yesterday and is regretting it thanks to a certain issue I'm having now.

[AraCelebEarwen]

*trying to ignore Rai's post*

Hey! If elves can be like that, then maybe I really CAN say I'm an elf! :D

Though maybe they had been getting into the wine a little early for Midsummer... ;) :p I can't help but laugh at how silly they are in that! I mean, it's like, 'Elves? These are ELVES?! No way!' But maybe their the younger ones that none of the others want to talk about... :rolleyes: Anyone got a pic to go with this one?! How many elves can you find?! *snicker* That one in the water must have lost a bet or something. :eek: That's gotta be cold!

What DO elves smell like?! Trees and water, but how would you sort that out from the other stuff around you? Maybe it's more like that tropical vanilla stuff! :D That would make a statement in a pine forest!

About the map. Moon-letters? Like a water mark I would think... Sounds cooler though!

[Inderjit S]

Hm...yes, I see what you mean, those Elves were problably Sindar or something, there is no way the Noldor would act in such a way. But it does show a 'seperate' side of the Elves, since most of what we hear about them is when they are at war and even then we hear about the proud ones, the nobles and the princes , we get to see how Elves, or the less mature Elves behaved in times of peace, and we swiftly come to the conclusion that they behave like morons. Apart from the Noldor of course. :p
Sam kind of notices this difference between the Elves too, some were merry and some proud.

[Wraithguard]

What DO elves smell like?!
Root Beer.


The description is incredibly different and it, in a way, makes sort of a mental change. Am I the only one this happens to? In the Sil you see Elves one way and in the Hobbit you see them completely different.

[Ithrynluin]

I think that when Bilbo says 'Hmmm! It smells like elves!' he means that it feels like elves, as he goes on to tell us that the stars were burning bright (something of a symbol for elves) and how they burst into song.

Does anyone else really like the song that the elves sing? I imagine the rhythm to be very jolly and upbeat, and the 'ha! ha!' is a nice wrap to each stanza.

Right after the song concludes, we are told that 'So they laughed and sang in the trees;'. I don't recall that elves of Rivendell made any habit of climbing trees or dwelling in them, as did the Lorien elves. Or do you think climbing trees was some sort of universal elven ritual? ;)

It's amusing to observe how the elves tease the approaching company. I laughed out loud when they addressed Thorin with 'Don't dip your beard in the foam, father! It is long enough without watering it.' :D

We are told that 'The master of the house was an elf-friend'; Isn't it strange that Elrond should be called an elf-friend, since he himself chose to be an elf? It seems that the title elf-friend is reserved for mortals who are in especially good terms with the elves. Elrond is rather a Man-friend, I would say!

All in all, quite a refreshing chapter, and one of my favourites.

[Walter]

Tolkien had in his youth encountered two very different types of Elfs.

On the one hand these came in the Germanic/Northern tales (which had only in Iceland survived the Christianisation relatively "unharmed"), where they are mentioned - sparsely enough, though - usually in the same breath with the Aesir, the gods.

On the other hand there were the tiny little winged creatures (resembling butterflies, IMO) of folktales (mostly remnants of Irish or Welsh tradition) which ever so often come across in a childish or silly way. Tolkien, btw., seems to have blamed Shakespeare - namely his A Midsummer Nights Dream - at least in part for this picture.

In the Lost Tales Tolkien goes great lengths to explain these different pictures and we witness an attempt of some sort of a "reconciliation" of the Germanic/Northern Elfs with the surviving remnants of the Tuatha-de-Danaan.

And while in the early parts of the legendarium we find quite a few creatures mentioned, which had become part of the Celtic tradition (but which are at least in part rooted in an earlier, pre-Indo-European, tradition) like brownies, fairies, pixies and leprechauns, such creatures do not come in the later parts of the legendarium.

Regarding Elfs, Tolkien seems to have slowly freed himself of the picture of tiny winged fairies and focused on the Germanic/Northern tradition which became the noble and wise Gnomes and Elves of his legendarium.

It seems, that at least in his children's tales the traces of the tiny fairies of the folktales were still present in his description of Elves. To have them sitting in the trees singing silly songs is - IMO - one such trace...

----
Baragund, I don't have the book here, I'll answer your questions during the weekend...

[baragund]

Here's a picture of the Elves singing in the trees. Even this image portrays the Elves in "A Short Rest" as more mature than the image that comes to my imagination. I picture the Elves in this chapter more like the pixies that Walter described above. Or even like a somewhat less garish version of the munchkins in The Wizard of Oz.

And why can't a Noldo get all goofy? I'll bet Caranthir would be a hoot if you get a couple of bottles of Dorwinion wine in him! :D

Walter, thank you again for checking The Annotated Hobbit (I really need to get my own copy of that book!) While you're looking, I'd appreciate it if you checked one more thing: Elrond refers to Thorin as a Longbeard in this chapter. The Longbeards (aka the Indrafang) did exist in the 1930 Quenta.

[Walter]

Another question for Walter: Were Elrond and the references to Gondolin, “the wars of the goblins and elves”, “the first men of the North”, “before the beginning of History” and the like in the original edition of The Hobbit? Each of those things existed in the mythology as it existed in 1930.

Concerning the paragraph: "The master of the house was an elf-friend .... , and Elrond the master of the house was their chief" there is only one note and this regards Elrond: first a reference to Letter #257 (which I suppose you have) and then anotherone to the "Sketch of the Mythology" of 1926 (HoMeIV; p38 - all page references from HarperCollins ed.) but no other comments regarding “the wars of the goblins and elves”, “the first men of the North”, “before the beginning of History” are given.

The reference to the "High Elves of the West" originally (1937) was "swords of the elves that are now called Gnomes". Then follows a brief explanation of the term Gnomes (basically identical to this entry at the TolkienWiki (http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Gnomes)).

There is a note about Gondolin and that it was one of the earliest parts of the Legendarium (1916-17), but no different text of 1937 is given, hence this reference may already have existed in the original version.

Walter, thank you again for checking The Annotated Hobbit (I really need to get my own copy of that book!) While you're looking, I'd appreciate it if you checked one more thing: Elrond refers to Thorin as a Longbeard in this chapter. The Longbeards (aka the Indrafang) did exist in the 1930 Quenta.
The book is indeed a worthwile reading, IMO.

There are two notes in that paragraph, regarding Durin and the seven fathers of the Dwarves: A reference to HoMeXII (p301) also mentioning that the distinction of 7 houses is a later conception whereas in The Hobbit originally only two races of Dwarves are mentioned. Also Anderson comments on the connexion to the Lombards of Germanic history (and references HomeV; p.53)

Edit: I just noticed that my copy of The Annotated Hobbit (http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Annotated__Hobbit) is a Houghton Mifflin ed., thus it may well be that the page references apply to the HM edition of the HoMe series as well...

[DGoeij]

I have so far been unsuccesfull in finding my copy of the Hobbit. After reading chapter two, I must have left the book somewhere (unless it deserted me for some reason, but I'm awfully kind to all of my books).

I was, up until last weekend, quite sure I had left it at my girlfriend's place, but no luck there. Which means I have to search my own room. Since that place also claimed my SUV, scuba-gear and two bulldozers during my last search thorugh the slightly more crowded parts, some patience from you people will be required.:rolleyes:

[Wraithguard]

Impressive. Don't worry, I keep having difficulties with my many, many personal injuries. On the topic of messes, I found a three-year-old grapefruit under my bed one time.

[AraCelebEarwen]

Grapefruit is alright, but after three years of living with even the calmest dust bunnies..! :eek:

:o I don't think I've even read chapter four yet... I was sure we would have another thread up by now, but maybe it's part to do with no one being able to get on... *shrugs* Anyway. I need to dig my book back up and get that next chapter done... :D

[Walter]

I have so far been unsuccesfull in finding my copy of the Hobbit.

<snip>

Since that place also claimed my SUV, scuba-gear...

Et tu, amicus? ("The Lost Hobbit" (http://tolkienwiki.info/mathom/chw/hobbit_lostnfound.jpg)) ;) :D :p