Suggestions for debate format [Archive]

Ingwë

10-01-2005, 06:46 PM

The following suggestions were discussed:

Standart debate. We form teams and start debating :)
A limited Post Challange.
Each debator would have only a certain number of posts in which to give their side of the argument. The smallest number of posts would be Three per side giving 'Opening Argument' 'Rebuttal' and 'Closing Argument' but the number of posts would be set at the beginning of the debate. (by Gothmog)
How about reducing that to one single post (and thus also limited in size) and hence make it a "competition" rather than a debate? Given a topic that interests me I could imagine taking part... (by Walter)
I Thought I would ask your opinions on an idea for one on one debates. (By Gothmog and Élhendi)

Wraithguard

10-01-2005, 07:59 PM

We lack sufficient membership to even have one guild nonetheless enough to have a debate tournament. If we could get the members that join the forum to regularly post we may have a chance. I say we just have people choose sides before the debate and then when they are done choose different sides for the next debate. At least until we have enough active and regular members to form guilds.

Thorondor_

10-01-2005, 08:03 PM

I don't fancy that much guilds; apart from giving a certain status, you are forced at times, as many have said already, to debate against what you believe. I too say 'go with the flow'...

Wraithguard

10-01-2005, 08:27 PM

I'm not opposed to guilds I'm just saying we don't have enough "manpower" to maintain them.

Ingwë

10-01-2005, 08:52 PM

I'm not opposed to guilds I'm just saying we don't have enough "manpower" to maintain them.No need to have enough 'manpower' to maintain them. Check Ithy's post: #117 (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showpost.php?p=461281&postcount=117) in thread Good ol' times? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=16276). We don't discuss opening Guilds but a debate format.

Wraithguard

10-02-2005, 01:08 AM

Calm down now Ingwë, no need to give me a thumbs down just because I posted my opinion. I wasn't intent on getting off topic but oh well. I suggest you be nice else I'll have my family in Macedonia invade your country! ;)

Let's think of this from a military POV.

We should form teams like platoons. Have a Platoon Leader (Team Captain) and Platoon Sergeant (Team Assistant) and then those beneath (without seperating into Squad Leaders and Squad Members). When we start a debate have 2 people volunteer to act as Captains for both sides and let the others fall in beneath them.

YayGollum

10-03-2005, 01:47 AM

Thorondor_

10-03-2005, 06:31 PM

I agree with Yay... we must get it rolling a.s.a.p...

Ingwë

10-04-2005, 01:26 PM

I suggest you be nice else I'll have my family in Macedonia invade your country! What do you mean? First off, however, I'd like to mention that Macedonia is West Bulgaria :D And Macedonians cannot invade my country :)

Have a Platoon Leader (Team Captain) and Platoon Sergeant (Team Assistant) and then those beneath (without seperating into Squad Leaders and Squad Members). When we start a debate have 2 people volunteer to act as Captains for both sides and let the others fall in beneath themI agree with you. That is good idea :)

Ithrynluin

10-05-2005, 08:11 PM

Sounds good to me. Anyways, Garn! This is taking too long. I see no need to debate about debate formats. This section needs to be cleaned up. All of the old threads need to be swept out, or, if any of them look like they are still being used, call the people in charge of them to finish them off. Maybe a thread for depositing debate topics can be made. Maybe a place for judges to volunteer. Maybe that prototype debate can be finished? Or should that be gotten rid of, because, as far as I can see, we know what we're doing already? Guilds have nothing to do with the new debate format. Stop writing about them. The idea of random people forming teams and choosing whatever side they like the best makes all kinds of sense. Someone inform me of what else must be decided. Don't merely sit about and agree with each other.

I quite agree. I've cleared up these forums of old threads and sent them to the archive so we can start with a more or less clean slate. Now, I was thinking, so as not to stall debating too much discussing rules, how about we borrow Snaga's proposed topic Was Fëanor proven right? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14233) and base the rules more or less on how they stand in that very thread.

Thorondor_

10-05-2005, 08:33 PM

I agree with Snaga's proposal

YayGollum

10-05-2005, 08:38 PM

Good job. The only problem that I have with the snaga1 person's debate format thing was the names that he gave to the teams. But then, it would be cool if whoever the host was got to name the teams. I could come up with some fun stuff.

Anyways, ithrynluin person, were you writing that we have a debate, it is the one that the snaga1 person already made, and we will have to find all of the people involved in that to continue it? All of that, except we find new people for it? Or were you writing that we are just using those rules, and topics still need to be thought up?

Also, are you the moderating type in charge of this debate stuff? Wait. Are you even a moderating type person anymore? I don't keep up with that stuff. oh well. I doubt that you have such a formal title as ---> The Moderating Type In Charge Of Debate Stuffs. The point of that was ---> Who else would make the most sense for me to toss these Private Message things at to help move things along, if ever tossing those things at moderating types would be efficient?

Maybe I should put this in both places to make sure. Garn. Am I really this bored? *looks quizzically at the people who are still agreeing* :rolleyes:

Ingwë

10-06-2005, 03:14 PM

Good idea, Ithy :)

Here are the rules:
(1) I, the host, will post a topic.
(2) There will be two teams, each taking one side of the debate. People may put themselves forward to be one of the teams. (ie you choose which side of the topic you are debating).
(3) Each team will have 5 members. When both teams have 5 members the debate may commence.
(4) The team that was filled first, posts first.
(5) The debate lasts exactly one week from the first post. (Extensions may be applied and will be granted at the discretion of the host, if both sides agree and there seems to be more to be said.)
(6) The host will appoint four other judges to assist him in voting for the winning team. Whichever team gets the most votes wins (obviously!)
(7) Each judge may also nominate one 'star debator'.
(8) Normal standards of behaviour in the debate apply... try to be friendly and honest at all times.
I also agree with the corrections:
In regards to (3), I don't think we need to set any kind of limit, or at least not as high a number as that, given that interest in debating has waned. We may simply see how many people are interested and even out the number of teams then.
About (5), I think the debate can last well over a week, perhaps a fortnight, so that those who don't have loads of free time on their hands, needn't be too strained to hurry up and deliver their post within the nick of time.This may be the general rules of the debates. And we also may use Yay's thread Yay For Debate Topic Suggestions! Originality, Yes? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=18083) for suggestions or we will post the debates and them form a team?
The only problem that I have with the snaga1 person's debate format thing was the names that he gave to the teams. I think that it is not a problem. The teams may have different names for each debates. The easiest way is to call the teams ''A'' and ''B'' :D

Aulë

10-06-2005, 05:56 PM

Haha!
So you're getting the evil Debate Tournament cranking again, eh?
Well good luck to whoever trys to organise it this time. Speaking from experience, you're gonna need it!! ;)

Ithrynluin

10-06-2005, 06:16 PM

It's not a debate tournament at all.

We brought the debate section back so that members can hold debates when they feel like it, rather than the other way around.

Arvedui

10-08-2005, 12:01 PM

As long as the participants are allowed to choose side themselves, I am happy.

Ingwë

10-14-2005, 04:37 PM

I want to suggest something else:
We have 2 teams for each debate; we have judges. They will give points for each team. Why don't they give points for each debator? Max: Ten points. Debators will participate in many debates so we may have points per debate. After some time we will make final possition and we will have best debator.
Btw, what was the format of 'Best of the Best'. This suggestion reminds me 'Best of the Best' tournament.

YayGollum

10-14-2005, 11:56 PM

Argh. That seems a bit too evil to me. Much room for the annoying as well as achingly useless and distracting show type of boating. I say ---> People pick the side that they would gain the most fun out of. Those people work as a team. Judges decide which team made the most sense.

I see no need for star debating type things at all. If one person does an especially cool job at debating, I would expect that one to get some praise for it, but that's about all. No disunity.

I am imagining much arguing over who gets the final post for each team. I am imagining not so much cooperation through Private Message type things on where the team should be headed. Mostly ---> I wouldn't trust all to stick to the idea of a 'team' win. :rolleyes: No offense, of course.

Wraithguard

10-15-2005, 04:29 AM

I agree with you. However, the TTFers that remain active are of a more passive nature which solves the arguing problems especially with who gets the last post. We could use a third subforum for the organisation of debates as well which would keep this forum neat with debate discussions and would keep the debate subforum neat with just the debates themselves. As for moderation I wouldn't mind getting back into the biz myself considering I'm an ex-mod from 2 dead forums, but that really isn't my decision to make there is it? I've got plenty of free time and the urge to get some debates going!

Ingwë

10-18-2005, 11:29 AM

I got the idea when I read the thread Best & Fairest Debator - Results (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14861) so I thought that it will be interesting if we do something like that.
However, we haven't started the first debate (it will start after a few days) and we have enough time for decisions ;)

Gothmog

11-08-2005, 02:31 AM

I have been thinking about formats for debates and thought I would ask your opinions on an idea for one on one debates.

A limited Post Challange.

Each debator would have only a certain number of posts in which to give their side of the argument. The smallest number of posts would be Three per side giving 'Opening Argument' 'Rebuttal' and 'Closing Argument' but the number of posts would be set at the beginning of the debate.

So, what does everybody think?

Arvedui

11-08-2005, 12:12 PM

That, my friend Gothmog, sounds like a very interesting challenge!
Brilliant idea. Just brilliant.:)

Ingwë

11-09-2005, 02:02 PM

That is not bad idea. Each debator would have at least 3 post and at most... I don't know :) We will decide :) That will limit the posts and will make the posts greater, containing more information. But what about the limit of 10000 characters per post. Some people would like to make longer posts if we have limit. WE must debate on that.

Arvedui, what did you do? What is that username? I still prefer Arvedui because it is kinda 'of a cult'! What is Êlhendi?

Ithrynluin

11-09-2005, 03:22 PM

It's worth trying in any case, if the participants wish so. Such a debate would not last long, and it would be much easier on the judges as well.

Arvedui wanted a name change. Apparently it means 'Star-eyes'.

Arvedui

11-09-2005, 10:01 PM

...or it would have meant if I hadn't committed a typo. :(
It should of course be Élhendi, not Êlhendi. I really need to get my Quenya together.

The character Élhendi just popped into my mind some weeks ago, but he is much more personal (which you wouldn't know until you saw me) than Arvedui , who was a rush-decision three years ago. A decision that I have felt uncomfortable with ever since.

EDIT: Thanx a bunch, Ithrynluin!

Walter

11-10-2005, 10:51 AM

No more sailing, stranger?

Btw. El meaning 'star' (Q) or El meaning 'God'? ;) (El was the first Hebrew name for God [later: Elohim]; I am fairly certain that Tolkien did not choose that parallel arbitrarily, all known stellar bodies back then were identified with gods)

P.S.: Oh well, I imagine that shipwrecking must've been a traumatic experience, which would explain a certain preference for clinging on an overhanging cliff rather than giving up dry land for an uncertain end amidst the waves....:D

----

And a little off topic (on the "limited post challenge") but serious nonetheless: How about reducing that to one single post (and thus also limited in size) and hence make it a "competition" rather than a debate? Given a topic that interests me I could imagine taking part...

Arvedui

11-10-2005, 04:03 PM

Él- as in poetic Quenya, meaning "star.":)
There is no way that I would have dared to call myself "God." Even the idea of being "a cult," as Ingwë stated is very strange to me. So the King and the cult is gone. What remains is a simple character gazing at and through the stars.:)

And the sailing days are not necesarily over. Remember how people navigated before GPS and other means. ;)
But I guess it is only fair to say that Élhendi does what Arvedui should have done...

Anyway, this thread is for Suggestions for debate format, not my user-name format...:p :D

Gothmog

11-10-2005, 08:51 PM

And a little off topic (on the "limited post challenge") but serious nonetheless: How about reducing that to one single post (and thus also limited in size) and hence make it a "competition" rather than a debate? Given a topic that interests me I could imagine taking part...
This is also a very good idea. I believe that it was tried in the Halls of Tolkenology before.

I don't see any reason why we cannot include it in the debating forum as well. :)

Alcuin

11-12-2005, 06:02 AM

Since I’ve just worked through the judging end of the debate process, I would like to offer this observation, if I may. I think that limiting the number of posts is counterproductive. Limiting the time of the debate to a couple of weeks or so seems reasonable, but the number of posts is probably best left to the participants, in my opinion. It can make it harder on the judges in a very long or involved debate, but it is the choice of individual TTFers to decide to judge a long debate or not.

For me personally, it would be hard to judge another debate like the Fëanor debate again any time soon. But that is my situation, and other folks might find their time less constrained.

In any case, the participants can establish whatever rules they like at the beginning of the debate. Surely that is negotiable on a debate-by-debate basis?

Arvedui

11-12-2005, 09:36 AM

Alcuin

11-12-2005, 09:26 PM

Alcuin,
I understand your post to the effect that you are talking about settling for one standard format for debates. But if I have understood the various suggestions so far, there will probably be a set of debate-formats to choose from, so that one debate might be done as we just did with Fëanor: a time-limit; while the next might just as well be post-limited, and so on.

And as Walter's post indicated: this might attract various participants, which is a good thing, IMOMy bad. I was concerned that long debates might be banished. I was urging that each debate have its own format, negotiated by the participants before commencing. So if one group wanted to debate opening-argument-rebuttal-close, 4 posts each side total; and another wanted to go on without limit; both would be game as long as that’s what they agreed to do going into the debate. If I seemed to be putting forward a one-size-fits-all proposal, then I apologize for the confusion.

Gothmog

11-13-2005, 01:31 AM

My bad. I was concerned that long debates might be banished. I was urging that each debate have its own format, negotiated by the participants before commencing. So if one group wanted to debate opening-argument-rebuttal-close, 4 posts each side total; and another wanted to go on without limit; both would be game as long as that’s what they agreed to do going into the debate. If I seemed to be putting forward a one-size-fits-all proposal, then I apologize for the confusion.
There's no problem. When I proposed the limited post chalenge it was to open up the number of formats for debates. As is shown by my agreement with Walter's idea as well. The more forms there are for debate the better.

I don't want things to get traped in a single debate format. This could prevent some members from getting involved. :)

Ingwë

11-14-2005, 10:07 AM

Well, it seems that this thread is useful :)

And a little off topic (on the "limited post challenge") but serious nonetheless: How about reducing that to one single post (and thus also limited in size) and hence make it a "competition" rather than a debate? Given a topic that interests me I could imagine taking part...First off, however, I'd like to mention that I didn't mention this paragraph from your post because of the '-------' - I thought it is a signature.
That will be funny. Surely it will be a competition, not a debate because the users will participate with only one post. It will be easier for the judges and more difficult for the 'debators' but I think it will be funny at all :)

About the other suggestion: I think that limiting the posts and the time will make the judging easier because the posts will be sift out by the debators :)

It seems that we'll have several debate formats. That is good because the members can choose.
Which format will we choose for a certain debate? I think that it is host's decision. He/She will decide whether the debators will choose the format or he himself.

Arvedui

11-15-2005, 07:20 AM

One thing that hasn't been mentioned as far as I know, is the possibilities for doing "one-on-one"-debates. We've tried that, and it worked, sort of.

And we could have debates concerning more "bizarre" matters such as Best Orc Pentathlete: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=2604

Gothmog

11-15-2005, 02:44 PM

I did mention one on one debates in my suggestion of limited post challenge ;)

Arvedui

11-16-2005, 08:49 AM

I did mention one on one debates in my suggestion of limited post challenge ;)
That's what you get for getting old: the Alzheimer kicking in again :rolleyes: :D :D

Ingwë

11-18-2005, 10:50 AM

No, Arvedui, you age is not the problem. I didn't see it, too...

I also added all the suggestions in my first post. Now it is easier to find them.
Post #1 (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showpost.php?p=461399&postcount=1)

Bethelarien

01-15-2006, 04:22 AM

Any chance anyone's ready to get another debate started? I wish I'd been around for this last one, incredible posting on both sides. Now I'm all fired up.

baragund

07-18-2007, 11:54 PM

As a participant and judge of these debates, I'd like to offer some observations of the current format and a suggestion of an alternative that may increase everyone's enjoyment of them.

Right now, the debate formate is to pick sides (3 or so per side), set a duration (say, 2 weeks), and then allow each person to post away in a free-form conversation until either a) the alloted time passes or b) one side or the other runs out of things to say, whichever comes first.

This makes for a loooooong debate. The one I just judged was 77 printed pages long. Also, the free-form style of posting results in a lot of reiteration of points already made. In an effort to get through the entire debate and make a reasonably intelligent judgement, I found myself skimming parts that had already been beaten to death. That increases the possibility of the judge inadvertently missing an important point. Also, the multiple postings increases the liklihood of fatigue setting in on the part of the participants, resulting in a more meandering and less organized debate.

How about a tightly organized format that would consist of the following:

a. Opening Statement (each side)
b. 1st Rebuttal (each side)
c. 2nd Rebuttal / Redirect (each side)
d. Closing Remarks (each side)

This makes a total of 8 posts for the debate. Each post would be a team effort where each member contributes to the post (say, via PM, email, etc.). To equally distribute the work load, each post could be managed or coordinated by a different team member.

Maintain the 2 week time limit. Or set a time limit per post. That makes a default in the event one of the teams drag their feet and don't get their posts up in a timely manner.

What do you think? I think this will make the debates more concise, more enjoyable to read and it will encourage teamwork.

YayGollum

07-19-2007, 03:38 AM

Argh. Yes, it would encourage teamwork. A weak point of mine. *hides* One of my few, I'm sure. :rolleyes: Sure, I enjoy the type of debateses that we have now, but this idea does make more sense. I see no reason for whoever is in charge of setting things up to lay out all kinds of rules like that. Every debate need not be the same. If the players all agree to the rules, make up all kinds of crazy ones! :rolleyes: