Chapter 4 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[baragund]

Well, I'll go ahead and get things started...

The title of the chapter gives us the origin of Frodo’s alias when he journeys from The Shire to Bree in LOTR. Don’t you just love the way Tolkien links the two stories in so many subtle ways?

Here is yet another example where Tolkien does such a marvelous job of describing the setting that you really feel like you are walking along with Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves. I love the description of boulders tumbling among them or over their heads among the “lonely peaks and valleys where no king ruled”.

They encounter the playful yet mischievous Stone Giants, who seem to be having a great time lobbing boulders at each other. I don’t get the impression that these giants are particularly evil or malicious, even though the mountain passes are supposed to be full of “evil things”. They seem to be content playing with each other and goofing on whoever happens to pass by.

The big thing in this chapter is that here is where we encounter Goblins for the first time. (That’s assuming someone who is new to Tolkien would read The Hobbit first.) Similar with the Dwarves and Elves, the description of the Goblins strikes me as a little more comical and definitely not as hideous as they are portrayed in LOTR and definitely in the films. Most interesting is the description of their handiwork. It’s a little long but I’ll include it in full:

Now goblins are curel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people tom make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosion always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far. They did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them. But they had a special grudge against Thorin’s people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned, but which does not come into this tale; and anyway goblins don’t care who they catch, as long as it is done smart and secret, and the prisoners are not able to defend themselves.

Check out the references to being able to make many clever things, the ability to mine better than any but the most skilled dwarves, their ability to invent machines and ingenious devices (even though it is with the intention of killing people). I get the impression here that they are smarter and more industrious than how they are portrayed in LOTR or even The Silmarillion. This seems to tie better into Tolkien’s earlier thoughts of how Goblins were corrupted and perverted versions of Elves rather than the later thinking that they are bestial creatures.

Finally, we get a glimpse of the magical or supernatural abilities of Orcrist and Glamdring. Gandalf uses Glamdring to cut through the chains that the Dwarves are bound with like a hot knife through butter. Similar to the description in “Many Meetings” in LOTR when Bilbo gives Sting to Frodo and he demonstrates it’s abilities by inserting it into an oaken beam with about as much effort as if the beam were made of mush.

[AraCelebEarwen]

*scuffs into the room, walking backwards and dragging a giant timeclock*

I'm really sorry. I Guess this thing is getting the better of me. *points thumb over shoulder at clock* And by the looks of it... I may not be the only one... :o Hello?

Just off the top of my head, I thought it was interesting that Gandalf has a wand that he uses. Maybe I missed it elsewhere but it's just something that I caught. I thing it's interesting to think that the change from a wand in the Hobbit to the staff in LOTR could be seen as a sign that Gandalf is aging. (or am I just that tired? :p )

Interesting chapter... can't think of much right now though... I only just got it done last night and have been crazy bizy the last few days! *sigh* I hope someone else shows up soon... it's a little too quiet in here right now... :)

[Thorondor_]

Just off the top of my head, I thought it was interesting that Gandalf has a wand that he uses. Maybe I missed it elsewhere but it's just something that I caught. I thing it's interesting to think that the change from a wand in the Hobbit to the staff in LOTR could be seen as a sign that Gandalf is aging.
Tolkien uses wand and staff for designating the same object; in chater 1, "Gandalf struck a blue light on the end of his magic staff"; in Unfinished Tales, The istari, Tolkien wrote:

"Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, "the Elf of the Wand". For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear"

"It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated with them, since his alliance and friendship wit Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues"

A staff and a wand are only slightly similar in shape or size. According to the Oxford dictionary, a wand could mean "a stick or rod thought to have magic properties, used in casting spells or performing tricks". I believe wand is sometimes used to signify the magic of the staff (though I know some members of this forum who wouldn't agree with me on this one ;) ).

[Walter]

I thing it's interesting to think that the change from a wand in the Hobbit to the staff in LOTR could be seen as a sign that Gandalf is aging. (or am I just that tired? :p )

Already Gandalf's first introduction in the later version of The Hobbit reads: "...an old man with a staff". But it is interesting to note that in the first drafts Gandalf was the leader of the dwarven party, as gandalfr is one of the names of the dwarfs in the Völuspá. We might thus speculate, that Gandalf became the name of the wizard (which was Bladorthin at first) only after Tolkien had pondered the possible etymological origin of the name gandalfr.

gandalfr consists of the terms gandr and alfr. While the latter part clearly denotes an elf, the origin and meaning of the former is more ambiguous.

Whereas gandr in the somewhat more modern use means 'wand', 'staff' or 'cane', it is more specifically assigned to a staff with magic runes carved on it. But it also seems to mean wolf or dragon/serpent, or maybe generally a monster, as we find the root in Jörmundgandr, the midgardserpent/-dragon which encircles the world and in Vánargandr, the wolf Fenrir, both the offspring of Loki, the trickster god/giant....

They encounter the playful yet mischievous Stone Giants, who seem to be having a great time lobbing boulders at each other. I don’t get the impression that these giants are particularly evil or malicious, even though the mountain passes are supposed to be full of “evil things”. They seem to be content playing with each other and goofing on whoever happens to pass by.
As I mentioned already in an earlier post, I think Tolkien is alluding here to the myth of the two giants, one at Windover Hill, the other at Firle Beacon throwing stones at each other across the valley.

The big thing in this chapter is that here is where we encounter Goblins for the first time.

....

Check out the references to being able to make many clever things, the ability to mine better than any but the most skilled dwarves, their ability to invent machines and ingenious devices (even though it is with the intention of killing people). I get the impression here that they are smarter and more industrious than how they are portrayed in LOTR or even The Silmarillion. This seems to tie better into Tolkien’s earlier thoughts of how Goblins were corrupted and perverted versions of Elves rather than the later thinking that they are bestial creatures.
Goblins/Orcs are a derivation of the döckalfar (or svartalfar), the dark-elfs (black-elfs) in Germanic/Northern mythology and there even the Dwarfs are sometimes seen as representing döckalfar...

[AraCelebEarwen]

YEY!!!! There are others still there! :D

*grins slightly* ummm... well, I'll let you all get back to it then. It would appear that I did manage to bring it back though. ;) :p I knew you would find it sooner or later.

Staff, wand or whatever; like I said, it was just something I could think of at the time. Glad to see it got this running. :cool:

[wizard2c]

Thanks for the insight. It definitely is worth researching being a wizard myself. I will be visting here quite often because I am preparing for a journey.

:)

[baragund]

Here's a fun picture of the Goblin King. This is very close to the picture I had of what goblins and orcs would looked before I saw the LOTR movies.

Also, I'd like to point out again Tolkien's description of goblins that I pasted in my last post. Here we see the environmentalist in Tolkien, comparing technological "advancement" to goblinesque ways. Interesting, don't you think?

[Eledhwen]

I get the impression here that they (the Goblins) are smarter and more industrious than how they are portrayed in LOTR or even The Silmarillion. This seems to tie better into Tolkien’s earlier thoughts of how Goblins were corrupted and perverted versions of Elves rather than the later thinking that they are bestial creatures.The Goblins were free agents, under their various warlords, after Sauron was defeated. Once the Dark Lord was back, and also Saruman had need of slaves, they become (once again?) little more than a proletariat doing their master's bidding - leaving no room for individual craft.

Finally, we get a glimpse of the magical or supernatural abilities of Orcrist and Glamdring. Gandalf uses Glamdring to cut through the chains that the Dwarves are bound with like a hot knife through butter. Similar to the description in “Many Meetings” in LOTR when Bilbo gives Sting to Frodo and he demonstrates it’s abilities by inserting it into an oaken beam with about as much effort as if the beam were made of mush.One has to wonder how such swords can be sheathed! Carefully, I suppose.

I do medieval sword fighting (using a two-handed, 42" sword), and few of the sword moves I use would work against Glamdring, which would presumably slice through my own sword.

[DGoeij]

Woohoo! I'd never believe I would ever be happy with exams, but during the weekend, while searching for missing notes from a course I had over a month ago, I retrieved my copy of the Hobbit. I'll try to catch up, once again.:rolleyes:

[baragund]

Great to have you along DG!:)

I have been remiss in starting the discussion on "Riddles in the Dark" but I'm in the middle of judging the recently completed debate. If you would like to get that chapter started, by all means go ahead.

[DGoeij]

Hah, I've just finished chapter 4, so no 'riddles in the dark' for me yet.

I was wondering about the entrance to the Goblin tunnels. Apparently nobody in the party, including Gandalf, realised they were camping out on the very doorstep of the local Goblin community. Although Gandalf was clearly suspicious about this cave, he somehow missed the fact that is was not a dead end, but an entrance.

And of the chain-cutting abilities of Glamdring, my guess is Gandalf added some of his 'magic' to ensure the chains would break. Unless iron-cutting abilities were quite common amongst elven blades, but that feels a bit over the top for me.

[Eledhwen]

And of the chain-cutting abilities of Glamdring, my guess is Gandalf added some of his 'magic' to ensure the chains would break. Unless iron-cutting abilities were quite common amongst elven blades, but that feels a bit over the top for me.Yes, the flashes of light sound more Gandalf than Glamdring. I don't remember any other mention of elven blades having this property. Shelob-webs, yes.

[baragund]

I dunno, DJ and Eledhwen. I always had the impression that Elvish blades had certain abilities of their own that put them a cut above (Har!) regular swords. Along with the examples I gave above, there is the account in Shelob's lair where Sam's sword from the barrow downs could not cut through her webs but Sting could. And Sam's blade was Numenorean at that! Calling them magic seems to be too strong of a term but Elvish swords seem to give one a distinct advantage over regular swords.

[DGoeij]

Personally, I feel a serious distinction between cutting Shelob's web and cutting actual steel.

Shelob was evil to the inner soggy depth of her exoskeleton (you can't say bad to the bone when dealing with an arachnid, now can you? :rolleyes: ), so I feel that the Numenorean blade was twarthed more by that evil then the strength of the web in itself. Just like elven rope hurt Gollum, I somehow feel that an elvish blade (like Sting) 'hurt' the web and made it possible to cut it.

I'm not enough into Tolkien-lore to be able to back my 'claims' very much. It's just a personal and hopefully somewhat educated guess.

In case of Gandalf cutting steel by using Glamdring (in what originally was a children's story anyway), I feel he added some of his own powers to a great sword. Again, more because it fits better into my personal mental picture, than becasue of available quotes, gathered over the years, delving deep into the Tolkien universe.;)

Oh, and I'm not a DJ. I like music, but I have a terrible memory for artist and song-titles. My brain was developed for movies and storylines, not music.:D I've been called DG a lot, Elgee preferred Big D somehow (I'm 1.90 metres tall, but I weigh a mere 72 kilograms :rolleyes: ) and I could very well live with those. *high pitched voice* DJ is just so not me.

[baragund]

I meant to type DG. Sorry about the typo...

So what is your impression of Bilbo being able to insert Sting through an wooden beam in "The Ring Goes South" with seemingly little effort? I'd have to hunt around for the references. but I also vaguely recall Aragorn being able to do cool things with Narsil.

Here is the passage from "The Ring Goes South":

He took from the box a small sword in an old shabby leathern scabbard. The he drew it, and its polished and well-tended blade glittered suddenly, cold and bright. 'This is Sting,' he said, and thrust it with little effort deep into a wooden beam. 'Take it, if you like, I shan't want it again, I expect.'