Was Fëanor proven right?

[Thorondor_]

Ok, I hope that my first post in an official debate won't be a difficult memory to live with:

And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me
Whatever fire Feanor had, it sure was no match the balrogs from Angband; thus, the words which were said to him (previously to this statement):
Vala he is, you say. Then you have sworn in vain, for none of the Valar can you overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom you name had made you thrice greater than you art were proven most true; he cannot even face balrogs, let alone a Vala; therefore, his first claim is false.
What he brings about is the fall of the elves; he starts a "hopeless war", a slaying of the elves and a most blasphemous oath - and these "dog all later heroism, generating treacheries and undoing all victories". Whatever later merits the elves had in containing the enemy he cannot claim, since he uselessly dies in an early battle - one of the main reasons for which Fingolfin joined the noldor exiles was that he would not leave his people to "the rash counsels of Feanor" - a wise thing to do. noldor in the Battle under the stars, the first one mentioned is also due to the Valar: "for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible"].
Do the exiled noldor have a collective merit? Yes; but Feanor's goal was neither keeping Melkor at bay, nor teaching the Men; his personal actions and achievements fall short of his primary goal - that is the recovery of the silmarils, which is attained, irronically, by "the final intervention of the gods", the same Gods he rejected and defied.

[YayGollum]

Mayhaps I just couldn't understand that first part of your post, Thorondor_ person. Please excuse me. What does Feanor not being able to survive an attack from who knows how many minions of Mel have to do with the knowledge that the Valar types have of how much of a fiery spirit he has? I hope that that sentence made sense. :rolleyes: Poor Feanor character. No experience in battle. Only a superly cool as well as fiery spirit, righteous fury, and one of the first swords ever made by an elf to help him out. Everybody writes about how much better other elves were when he didn't even have the chance to become great. They all show off their fighting prowess after many years of battling Mel. oh well. What was I writing about? Yes, I did not understand that first part of your post. If he can't survive certain attacks, the Valar types know how much of a fiery spirit he has? I see no relation. sorry about that. Please excuse me.

What else? For my side, I would say about the first part of the quote that I have to deal with ---> I am about to ignore the first part of the quote, since I do not see how it can be proven what the Valar types know about how much of a fiery spirit the Feanor character has. Maybe your quote actually does make sense? I don't know.

And for the ---> "Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it." part of the quote, you are writing that any hurt that other elves did to Mel doesn't count as Feanor hurting him because he was killed very early on? just wondering.

For my side of that part of the quote, I would write ---> Is there any quote that you people can give to prove it right or wrong? I don't remember ever reading that the Valar types ever talked about the stuff that Feanor did. I would not be surprised if we could all agree that it would have just been common sense for them to have mentioned it at least once, though. Unless they are the pure evil types who heard that part of his quote and all decided to never speak of him again, just to make him wrong. :rolleyes: This part of the quote looks like a good one to ignore, too, since it can't be proven either way. Maybe not, though. You show me. Anyways, I would think that the dude did do much hurt to the Mel character. There is the not so oftenly mentioned bit of him killing off a few minions of Mel in his first encounter with them, which is any hurt at all to the Mel character. There is also the fact that, without him, the elf types wouldn't have come to Middle Earth to mess with Mel at all. That is also a superly direct hurt that he did at the Mel dude. They were achingly happy in paradise and would be happy to sit there and continue brainlessly praising the gods in the dark. Ick. Yay for Feanor!

For the last part of the quote ---> Yes, they did follow him. As you mentioned in your post, the Valar types finally did show up in Middle Earth. Or is that not who he was talking about following him?

[Ithrynluin]

Published Silmarillion - The Flight of the Noldor
Then turning to the herald he [Feanor] cried: "Say this to the Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!"

Were the (underlined) words of Feanor proven true?


Clearly, the underlined words of Fëanor were not proven true. What they are is a simple and typical arrogance outburst of Fëanor. He boasts in his usual manner and then claims a ludicrous promise that not even one (or several, for that matter) of the Valar could assert with any veracity. He had hardly caused any hurt to the "Foe of the Valar" with his rash onslaught to Angband, let alone done "such hurt...that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it." Rather, he had caused hurt to his own 'side', that of good, first by alienating himself and his people from the Valar, then by abandoning Fingolfin & co. who then crossed the deadly Helcaraxë where many a warrior was lost, and lastly and most importantly, by bereaving the Noldor of the leadership and skill of a most talented elf, who otherwise may have put their strength together and oppose the Dark Lord much more effectively and efficiently. Not to be discarded is also the fact that he had burned the Telerin ships, whereupon his own son had perished. This goes to show the state of Fëanor's mind from the time of the rebellion against the Valar onwards to his death - he was extremely irrational and cocky, overglorifying himself, misjudging his foe, and ultimately doing harm to everyone but. The only thing the Valar may have wondered at regarding Fëanor's escapade to Middle-earth would be his extraordinary and unprecedented fiery death, though I somewhat doubt that this caused the Foe of the Valar much hurt. ;)

Mayhaps I just couldn't understand that first part of your post, Thorondor_ person. Please excuse me. What does Feanor not being able to survive an attack from who knows how many minions of Mel have to do with the knowledge that the Valar types have of how much of a fiery spirit he has? I hope that that sentence made sense. Poor Feanor character. No experience in battle. Only a superly cool as well as fiery spirit, righteous fury, and one of the first swords ever made by an elf to help him out. Everybody writes about how much better other elves were when he didn't even have the chance to become great. They all show off their fighting prowess after many years of battling Mel. oh well. What was I writing about? Yes, I did not understand that first part of your post. If he can't survive certain attacks, the Valar types know how much of a fiery spirit he has? I see no relation. sorry about that. Please excuse me.

What else? For my side, I would say about the first part of the quote that I have to deal with ---> I am about to ignore the first part of the quote, since I do not see how it can be proven what the Valar types know about how much of a fiery spirit the Feanor character has. Maybe your quote actually does make sense? I don't know.


I believe what Thorondor was getting at is that Fëanor was, despite all his greatness, only an elf, and thus many times removed, as concerns intrinsic power, from not only one of the gods themselves such as Melkor, but also from their servants and helpers the Maiar, such as the Balrogs, one of whom slew Fëanor in the end.

Anyways, I would think that the dude did do much hurt to the Mel character. There is the not so oftenly mentioned bit of him killing off a few minions of Mel in his first encounter with them, which is any hurt at all to the Mel character.

Weigh 'a few minions' of Melkor against the loss of one of the greatest elves. The first is insignificant at best.

There is also the fact that, without him, the elf types wouldn't have come to Middle Earth to mess with Mel at all.

How do we know they wouldn't have? Fëanor certainly was the catalyst in the rebellion of the Noldor, but without him others may have gone about organizing it much better and may even have obtained the help of the Valar early on. Fëanor can claim no credit for what others achieved after him in Middle-earth.

For the last part of the quote ---> Yes, they did follow him. As you mentioned in your post, the Valar types finally did show up in Middle Earth. Or is that not who he was talking about following him?

Of course they followed him. Only the gods had the power to clear up the mess that he had initiated.;)

[YayGollum]

So I have secured the third part of the quote for my team, at least. :rolleyes: Yay!

Anyways, Yikes! All of the hurtful accusations tossed at one of that Tolkien person's best characters! Also, do most of the sentences in that first little paragraph thing of yours, ithrynluin person, pertain to the debate? Please excuse me, but we are merely focusing on the underlined bit of quote, right? sorry if I was confused, and there is much else that I should be looking at. We should be writing about --->

1. If that Eru character put a bit more fieriness into him that the Valar types are aware of.

2. If he did enough hurt to Mel that the Valar types will mention it at some point.

3. Well, that is already secured for my team. The Valar types did end up following him. :D

It looks like you are merely attempting to make the Feanor character look bad. I shall now check out the later parts of your post. *hides*

To your bit on the first part of the debate ---> Your point is that the Feanor character's race is elf, which is not as spiritually fiery as a balrog or Valar type thing? How does that prove what the Valar types know about this particular elf's level of fiery spirit? It looks like it doesn't, but maybe I need that bit explained to me even more. :eek: :rolleyes:

To your bit on the second part of the debate ---> I was merely proving that the achingly cool Feanor character did hurt the superly entertaining Mel character at all. Yes, I strayed from what I was supposed to be proving about the second part of the debate, but the Thorondor_ person mentioned stuff that the Feanor character did, so I thought that I would show other stuffs that he did. sorry about that. Really, all we should be debating about is what I wrote as that Number Two part, which I don't see how it can be proven or disproven since it wasn't really specified. *hides*

[Celebthôl]

Right guys, lets get this thing really going!

*clears throat*:

Yay's pretty much hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter how Feanor fights, thats not all a spirit is about. In short, we aren't here to discuss his fighting ability, but of course his spirit. We therefore must bring up the key factor of the manner of his death. His body was so powerfully engulfed by his spirit that no earthly remains were left.
Also how can it not be agrued that so many elves followed him to Beleriand unless due to the spirit he showed in wanting his Silmarils back? Only a mighty spirit could have roused half the Noldor into removing from Elf heaven into the bowels of hell.

It is quite clear that Feanor did do hurt to the foes of the Valar, he led the Noldor to Beleriand, if he hadn't then there would have been no siege of Angband no loss of the Silmaril for Morgoth by Beren and finally no coming of the Valar in the end. They all seem pretty large hurts to the foes of the Valar to me, all caused indirectly by Feanor (there is nothing in the quote about "direct" hurts).

And as i've just stated, the Valar did follow Feanor.

Now young Ithy, you make quite a few claims that I feel must be dealt with.
You claim Feanor was acting (in your own words) "extremely irrational", yet we know he was always in such passionate moods all the time from before the Silmaril's were stolen, this all due to his mightly fire within.

Another point:
I believe what Thorondor was getting at is that Fëanor was, despite all his greatness, only an elf, and thus many times removed, as concerns intrinsic power, from not only one of the gods themselves such as Melkor, but also from their servants and helpers the Maiar, such as the Balrogs, one of whom slew Fëanor in the end.

Now Ithy, i'm sure you can't have made such a mediocre mistake as this?
Must I remind you of 2 certain Elves who took down Balrogs (and one even took down the Lord of Balrogs Gothmog himself), Ecthelion and Glorfindel. Neither of these as mighty as Feanor and certainly neither had as much "intrinsic" power (as you say) as any Ainur, yet they managed to kill one.

How do we know they wouldn't have? Fëanor certainly was the catalyst in the rebellion of the Noldor, but without him others may have gone about organizing it much better and may even have obtained the help of the Valar early on. Fëanor can claim no credit for what others achieved after him in Middle-earth.

For this point all I can say is "How do we know they would have come to Middle Earth?" Neither of us can prove that point either way, so its useless to use it. ;)

Of course they followed him. Only the gods had the power to clear up the mess that he had initiated.

Well, i'm not sure what to say except, thank you, you've just admitted what you were supposed to argue against, therefore proving our point. There seems nothing left to say on this part of Feanor's quote. ;)

[Ithrynluin]

I'll address some points briefly for the time being.

So I have secured the third part of the quote for my team, at least. Yay!


3. Well, that is already secured for my team. The Valar types did end up following him.

Well, i'm not sure what to say except, thank you, you've just admitted what you were supposed to argue against, therefore proving our point. There seems nothing left to say on this part of Feanor's quote.

Amusing. Unfortunately, my point was tongue in cheek (hence the little blue fella ;)). Who the Valar ended up following (if they "followed" anyone at all) was Melkor, whose evil it was their duty to foil as guardians of Arda.

Also how can it not be agrued that so many elves followed him to Beleriand unless due to the spirit he showed in wanting his Silmarils back? Only a mighty spirit could have roused half the Noldor into removing from Elf heaven into the bowels of hell.

Did someone say he was not a mighty elf? You might want to recheck my previous post. His lust for the Silmarils was the main driving force that led him to follow Melkor. He was certainly one of the greatest elven orators, which is how he convinced the Noldor to follow him into a hopeless flight.

It is quite clear that Feanor did do hurt to the foes of the Valar, he led the Noldor to Beleriand, if he hadn't then there would have been no siege of Angband no loss of the Silmaril for Morgoth by Beren and finally no coming of the Valar in the end. They all seem pretty large hurts to the foes of the Valar to me, all caused indirectly by Feanor (there is nothing in the quote about "direct" hurts).


No. First of all, in the quote he claims that he will do such hurt to the Foe of the Valar...etc. Ascribing everyone else's deeds against Melkor to Fëanor is utterly false logic. If you're going by it, you ought to continue along the path of such a faulty rationale and claim that it was actually Eru who caused such hurt to the Foe of the Valar, since it was Eru who created both the Elves and the Valar, and without him there would have been no...(continue sentence at your own leisure).

[Celebthôl]

Amusing. Unfortunately, my point was tongue in cheek (hence the little blue fella ;)). Who the Valar ended up following (if they "followed" anyone at all) was Melkor, whose evil it was their duty to foil as guardians of Arda.
But they followed him none-the-less. He went to Middle Earth, then the Valar did, they simply followed the path he went.

Did someone say he was not a mighty elf? You might want to recheck my previous post. His lust for the Silmarils was the main driving force that led him to follow Melkor. He was certainly one of the greatest elven orators, which is how he convinced the Noldor to follow him into a hopeless flight.
Without being one of those really annoying types, please provide a quote...
He was a powerful spirit, it's pointless to argue against that as J.R.R.Tolkien states so himself. By what he did and what he said, it is clear he was a powerful spirit.

No. First of all, in the quote he claims that he will do such hurt to the Foe of the Valar...etc. Ascribing everyone else's deeds against Melkor to Fëanor is utterly false logic. If you're going by it, you ought to continue along the path of such a faulty rationale and claim that it was actually Eru who caused such hurt to the Foe of the Valar, since it was Eru who created both the Elves and the Valar, and without him there would have been no...(continue sentence at your own leisure).
I agree and he DID do such hurt to the foes of the Valar, but indirectly.
How is it false logic? The hurts that Melkor undertook after the Noldor came to Beleriand would never have happened if Feanor had not been. It's as simple as that. I'm not at all saying that ALL hurts to Melkor were because of Feanor, not at all, before Feanor exisited any hurts that Melkor recieved were from somewhere else. However, any hurts Melkor recieved in Beleriand, after the time that Feanor came there were due to Feanor, he was the reason Fingolfin came there and nearly stood his ground to Melkor, he was the reason Beren took the Silmaril from Melkor, for no Elves there meant that Men had no quarrell with Melkor. Etc.

[Ithrynluin]

But they followed him none-the-less. He went to Middle Earth, then the Valar did, they simply followed the path he went.

That is a strawman. Why say that the Valar followed Fëanor, who perished more than 500 years before their coming? You might make the similarly pointless claim that the Valar actually followed Melian to Middle-earth. The Valar were in Aman, Melkor was in Middle-earth, and they went there to dispose of him, just like they have done much earlier when Melkor was in his old fortress of Utumno and the Valar defeated and chained him. The point is that the Valar always came after Melkor, completely irregardless of Feanor or anyone else for that matter.

Without being one of those really annoying types, please provide a quote...


The Silmarillion: The Flight of the Noldor
After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!'

The use of 'we' here is similar to when Saruman tempts Gandalf to reveal to him the whereabouts of the One Ring, so that they (plural) could make use of it together. Further on:

The Silmarillion: The Flight of the Noldor
Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

His priority, before anything else such as vengeance for his father or the well-being of his people, is to regain his precious jewels.

Finally, we have the words of Fingolfin:

The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth; The Shibboleth of Feanor: Note 33
'I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Feanor seeks first his stolen treasures.'


Greedy possession of the Silmarils was indeed Feanor's main driving force. Avarice is no virtue.

[Hammersmith]

I'll chip in further to that, in an attempt to prove myself something other than a deadweight :D

But they followed him none-the-less. He went to Middle Earth, then the Valar did, they simply followed the path he went. They did follow him. But one must question if Feanor did his followers more harm than good. How many elves were slaughtered through his actions? How many died at the Helcaraxe? Up until his death, though they were following him he did his utmost to hurt or kill dozens of his followers. Would it not have been better for the Noldor to ignore Feanor's hot-headedness and wait until the Valar themselves reckoned the time right to lead the liberation of Middle Earth? I don't honestly see how the elves' following Feanor can vindicate him. If anything it loads the scales against him and can be seen as a terrible crime.


The hurts that Melkor undertook after the Noldor came to Beleriand would never have happened if Feanor had not been. It's as simple as that. I'm not at all saying that ALL hurts to Melkor were because of Feanor, not at all, before Feanor exisited any hurts that Melkor recieved were from somewhere else. However, any hurts Melkor recieved in Beleriand, after the time that Feanor came there were due to Feanor, he was the reason Fingolfin came there and nearly stood his ground to Melkor, he was the reason Beren took the Silmaril from Melkor, for no Elves there meant that Men had no quarrell with Melkor. Etc. By all means; attribute all hurts suffered by Melkor to Feanor if that's what you want. It changes little. Regardless of how much he hurt Melkor his effort was meaningless, because neither he nor his descendents could finish the job. They were injuring themselves in pursuit of the unattainable. I think it's fair to agree that of all the generations of elves assailing Melkor, none made much of a dent in his power.

[Thorondor_]

Yay's pretty much hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter how Feanor fights, thats not all a spirit is about. In short, we aren't here to discuss his fighting ability, but of course his spirit. We therefore must bring up the key factor of the manner of his death. His body was so powerfully engulfed by his spirit that no earthly remains were left. I disagree; the aspect in question was exactly Feanor's fighthing capability. How else is he going to achieve his ends, avenging his father and recovering the silmarils? By proving to the orcs what a great orator he is? By showing the balrogs his beautiful works? Did he actually expect Melkor to bow in front of his mighty spirit? No, he sets out to "pursue with vengeance" and overcome the evil lord through war.
Also how can it not be agrued that so many elves followed him to Beleriand unless due to the spirit he showed in wanting his Silmarils back? Only a mighty spirit could have roused half the Noldor into removing from Elf heaven into the bowels of hell Even if his eloquency is not the issue, I can't agree with your positive view on his speech; his words filled with anger, pride and the lies of Melkor "stirred the Noldor into madness". Not something to brag about, is it?
It is quite clear that Feanor did do hurt to the foes of the Valar, he led the Noldor to Beleriand, if he hadn't then there would have been no siege of Angband no loss of the Silmaril for Morgoth by Beren and finally no coming of the Valar in the end I presume that the coming of the valar in the end is the war of wrath. Well, first of all, Eonwe seems to be the only "high representative", and he is only a Maia. And do you have any reason to assume that at any point the Elder King forgot his "prime function and task", that of opposing Melkor? Isn't Manwe described as the sprit of greatest wisdom? His actions are done in accordance with Eru's will, a thing which Tolkien qualifies in Osanwe kenta as being "more than wisdom".
Must I remind you of 2 certain Elves who took down Balrogs (and one even took down the Lord of Balrogs Gothmog himself), Ecthelion and Glorfindel. Neither of these as mighty as Feanor and certainly neither had as much "intrinsic" power (as you say) as any Ainur, yet they managed to kill one In what sense weren't they as mighty as Feanor? Let us look at this description in "Of Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie":
"Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant"
I may be wrong, but there is no refference to his fighting skills, only to his eloquency and craftmanship. His poor judgement of battlefield conditions (unlike Fingolfin, later on) doesn't make him that much of a fighter.
Well, i'm not sure what to say except, thank you, you've just admitted what you were supposed to argue against, therefore proving our point. There seems nothing left to say on this part of Feanor's quote.
Now, really, leaving all joke aside, who followed who in the war against Melkor? Weren't the valar the first ones to attack him? How could Feanor claim that he sets the precedence? They fought against Melkor even before Feanor was born.
For this point all I can say is "How do we know they would have come to Middle Earth?" Neither of us can prove that point either way What do you mean? Do you actually agree with Feanor that the elves were held in thaldom? The messenger of the valar was only warning against leaving in an "evil hour".
Your point is that the Feanor character's race is elf, which is not as spiritually fiery as a balrog or Valar type thing? How does that prove what the Valar types know about this particular elf's level of fiery spirit? It looks like it doesn't, but maybe I need that bit explained to me even more The issue that the messenger of the valar raised was that Feanor was not great enough to fight against a vala - let alone "the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä", as Melkor is described in "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor". As history has it, Fenor obviously over-estimated "the fire Eru set in him", as in ability to achieve his goals. He, as an individual - which is what we are discussing - failed rather early on in his quest.

[YayGollum]

Here is the quote again --->

And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest.

Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it.

Yea, in the end they shall follow me

Here are the easy to swallow bits that we must prove or disprove --->

1. If that Eru character put a bit more fieriness into him that the Valar types are aware of.

2. If he did enough hurt to Mel that the Valar types will mention it at some point.

3. If the Valar types would ever end up following the Feanor character in any way.

Try to stay focused, crazy people. I am seeing a lot that deviates from those three points. For the first point, you people are debating about whether or not the Feanor character had great fighting or speaking abilities. Neither of those are talked about in the quote. What the quote does speak of is what the Valar types know about his spirit. Show quotes that prove this either way. It looks impossible to know, in my opinion. Also, Thorondor_ person, your opinion on if the way that the Feanor character uses his oratory gifts is good or not doesn't matter to the debate. Why bring it up? *sniff* Poor Feanor. :rolleyes:

For the second point, you people are debating about whether the Feanor character hurt the Mel character at all. Lots of indirect counts because direct or indirect weren't specified in the quote types of points. No large deal. What the quote does speak of is if the Valar types will mention his deeds at any point. Show quotes that prove that they did or did not ever speak of those. This also looks impossible to know.

For the third part, Yay you people for sticking to it! But then, why are you sticking to it, if it is so achingly already secured for my side? Both sides have admitted that the Valar types followed the Feanor character in any way at all, yes? Yes. Why should points be brought up about ---> "Oh, but the Feanor character was following the Valar types, since they went to that Middle Earth place before he was ever born!" or ---> "Sure, the Valar types showed up in that Middle Earth place after a while. This does not mean that they were following him. They were following plenty of characters that we are actually fans of. They were following for particular reasons that did not have much to do with the Feanor character." Those do not really matter. They did end up following him in any way. Intentions do not matter. The quote speaks of actions only.

Anyways, what's with the Feanor character study that I see going on in this thread? Much information is being brought in that has nothing to do with the three points. Why worry about the Feanor character's reasons for doing things? Stick to the quotes, unless you can explain how your defamation of character directly pertains to them. Garn. Evil other side of the debate, attempting to make their side look better by way of wielding the popular opinion of the superly cool Feanor character! :eek: ..... :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter in this debate (all might just wish to ignore this part of my post, since I am only having a bit of fun with points that I think don't pertain to this debate at all, but Yay for the other side explaining to me how these things do directly pertain to the three points!), but for the sake of me having fun ---> You people write that he brought elves with him definitely because he was an achingly evil as well as self-centered person who only wanted to look at his pretty shinies for all time and didn't care about anyone else. Wrong. Those little quote things? Useless. Feanor speaks of the silmaril type things in his oath because that's what others would wish to hear and speaking of avenging his father person shouldn't matter to most others. The boring Fingolfin character's opinion should have no bearing, either. Unless there is some bit of evidence that the Fingolfin character was infallible. :rolleyes:

Also, Hammersmith person, why ask whether the Feanor character really ended up helping the elves very much? That doesn't matter in this debate, either. Those elves definitely only got there because of what the Feanor character did. Those elves definitely did much hurt to the Mel character that the Valar types definitely did speak of at all. The quote says nothing about finishing any unspecified job. The quotes mention hurting the Mel character at all, which did happen. Again, this is not a character study. We should be focusing on the three points that the quote brings up. Why worry about things that could have been? Prove the quote wrong or don't.

[Hammersmith]

Also, Hammersmith person, why ask whether the Feanor character really ended up helping the elves very much? That doesn't matter in this debate, either. Those elves definitely only got there because of what the Feanor character did. Those elves definitely did much hurt to the Mel character that the Valar types definitely did speak of at all. The quote says nothing about finishing any unspecified job. The quotes mention hurting the Mel character at all, which did happen. Again, this is not a character study. We should be focusing on the three points that the quote brings up. Why worry about things that could have been? Prove the quote wrong or don't.
Yaygollum, I see it as central. Was he proven right that he would do harm to Melkor? I think that to answer this we need to determine how much damage he did and how much the Noldor did. Certainly he catalysed their journey, but you seem to be suggesting firstly that all of their actions where they caused Melkor minimal injury (definitely not 'such hurt that the mighty shall wonder to hear it') were entirely due to Feanor and his institution of their campaign and secondly that if it were not due to Feanor's action as a catalyst, such a journey would have been impossible to undertake. I was challenging both of these premises by illustrating the futility of the Noldor campaign and by pointing out that Feanor hindered the Noldor as much as he helped them, which suggests that the deeds of the elves were not due to Feanor but were in spite of Feanor.

[YayGollum]

Yes, he was proven right that he would do harm to Mel. I gave examples where he hurt the guy at all. Here they are again ---> In that first little skirmish where he died, he killed at least one minion of Mel. Also, he brought the elves to Middle Earth.

Knowing how much damage he did versus how much damage an entire race did does not tell us if he did any damage at all to Mel, which is what the quote is looking for. Only the first part of the versus thing tells us that. :rolleyes:

Anyways, to what you have to write about what I seemed to be suggesting ---> No. It would be pretty crazy of me to write that Feanor gets all of the credit for all of the damage done by an entire race of elves. I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that he did a lot of harm to Mel by way of bringing elves to that Middle Earth area. I am not putting much into stone. I happen to merely be writing ---> "Do what? You people think that bringing lots of elves who have gotten very focused on the idea that Mel is evil (thanks to Feanor's speech) and deserves to be punished was not harmful at all to the Mel character? Craziness!" A bit has been written about this dude's oratory skills. Tell me what the elves thought of Mel before Feanor rallied them. Looks to me to be that it was something like ---> "Hm? Who's this random dude that our gods have brought out of jail? Mel? They say that he's alright? Cool. Doobedoobedoo... Hey, thanks, Mel, for all of the cool things that we are learning from you! You're a pretty down to earth sort of being. Not like that Spirit Of Sock Puppet Manwe, sitting on his mountain, looking down on us all of the time. Doobedoobedoo... Hey! Sucking our pretty trees dry? Why'd you have to do that, Mel? oh well. We don't need light to survive. That was kind of mean, though. Hm? Meeting at the town hall? Sure, I'll come! I have no goals or hopes or dreams here in paradise. Nothing else to do. Doobedoobedoo... Woah! Feanor is the greatest! Nice speech! Have you ever heard of a better speech than that? Not bad! Mel is pure evil! He obtained our confidence only to betray us muchly! Kill Mel, even though we should be self-centered enough to not care about what he did! It's just too bad that we are sheep and are now focused on that superly cool speech! Yes, yes. Kill Mel!"

As to your point on my second suggestion ---> Whoops. I did not intend to seem as if I was writing that the journey would have been impossible to take. Why would I think that the elves did not have the ability to grab some boats and journey to Middle Earth? That's just craziness. They had muscles and whatever else was required. What I was actually attempting to communicate was the idea that they would not have gone to Middle Earth at all, if it wasn't for him. You saw that little quote that I gave of the average elf's view. They were sheep. Had no problem with sitting around in paradise for all time. Had no motivation to leave until Feanor.

[Hammersmith]

As to your point on my second suggestion ---> Whoops. I did not intend to seem as if I was writing that the journey would have been impossible to take. Why would I think that the elves did not have the ability to grab some boats and journey to Middle Earth? That's just craziness. They had muscles and whatever else was required. What I was actually attempting to communicate was the idea that they would not have gone to Middle Earth at all, if it wasn't for him. You saw that little quote that I gave of the average elf's view. They were sheep. Had no problem with sitting around in paradise for all time. Had no motivation to leave until Feanor.
So you're quite comfortable with the conclusion that Feanor's instigation of the Noldor to travel to Middle Earth was not due to his inflammatory character, and that being "sheep" as you so candidly describe them, the Noldor would have probably gone anyway (such as when the Valar decided the right time had come)? Okay. *Crosses off list*

As to the other point, I think you've misunderstood my main aim. That happens a lot; I'm sorry. My point was chiefly that Feanor hindered the Noldor just as much as he helped them in the crossing, and that to crown him as the architect of their limited victories is as flawed as suggesting that he should take all the credit for the entire race's acts.

[YayGollum]

Hm. Sure, the Noldor types probably would have headed to that Middle Earth place if ever the Valar types asked them to. Why not? Does that idea help your side of the debate at all? The fact that they could have been led to any place by any force doesn't matter to this debate. The fact that Feanor did it does matter, though. What's with all of the something versus something else points? Are the three sentences that I keep bringing up too straightforward for you people to use, since you gots to twist things so much to make it look like your side makes any sense?

Anyways, as to the thing that I might have misunderstood a bit of ---> Yes, I have the ability to understand why anyone might think that way, but the idea that the Feanor character hindered or helped the Noldor types in any way doesn't matter, since we should only be debating about whether or not he was able to use them effectively. :D In any way. Or at all.

[Arvedui]

Is it truly the right thing to take the underlined text that we are given to debate, so out of context that my predecessors have done?
And, following that, do we have the right to discuss line by line, instead of looking at the whole quote in view of who Fëanor was, and what he accomplished in his far too short lifespan. And also keep in mind what situation Fëanor was in when he uttered those words?
I'm not too sure...

Fëanor's abilities was not in fighting war. As our honourable opponents have already shown:
From The Silmarillion:
Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame.
He is the orator and handyman, not the warrior. So when the Valarian team want to debate how great a warrior Fëanor was, they are being unfair towards Fëanor and the author IMO.
So what then was the great thing that Fëanor did?

He brought the Noldor to Middle-earth!

And as Tolkien himself wrote:
From Myths Transformed:
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the Northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements of Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

And do you have any reason to assume that at any point the Elder King forgot his "prime function and task", that of opposing Melkor?Oh? Was that really Manwë's prime function and task?
I have always thought that governing Arda was his prime function. Silly me....;)
And let us have a look at what Eru himself thought on how well Manwë fullfilled that task:

From The Converse of Manwë and Eru
Eru answered: [....] As for my First-born, have ye not removed great numbers of them to Aman from the Middle-earth in which I set them?

So what Fëanor did, was to bring the Noldor back where Eru had intended them to be in the first place. And as I provided in the quote from Myths Transformed, thus letting Men make contact with Firstborn that had experienced the Blessed Realm. And when one think a bit further, and realize that Men would in the end rule Middle-earth, that was probably not such a bad thing was it? For the Valar didn't do much to give such learning to Men, did they?
Not until the Istari were sent to M-E thousands of years afterwards...

Concerning Fëanor's spirit, there isn't much to say that isn't already known to most readers of Tolkien. There are no tales showing any living of the Children that had been provided with a stronger spirit than Fëanor. At least none that I have found that were born with a spirit so strong that it emptied all strength from his mother:

From The Silmarillion:
In that time was born in Eldamar, in the house of the King in Tirion upon the crown of Túna, the eldest of the sons of Finwë, and the most beloved. Curufinwë was his name, but by his mother he was called Fëanor, Spirit of Fire; and thus he is remembered in all the tales of the Noldor.
Míriel was the name of his mother, who was called Serindë, because of her surpassing skill in weaving and needlework; for her hands were more skilled to fineness than any hands even among the Noldor. The love of Finwë and Míriel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son Míriel was consumed in spirit and body, and after his birth she yearned for release from the labours of living. And when she had named him she said to Finwë: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.
And I am not too sure that the self-centered Valar actually understood how great a spirit Fëanor had. Actually, from their actions, I think it is fair to say that the Valar understood very little about the Children of Ilúvatar at all!
But on the other hand: how could they have understood much about them? The Children didn't enter the Music while the Ainur participated, did they?
From The Silmarillion:
For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free,

[Thorondor_]

he led the Noldor to Beleriand, if he hadn't then there would have been ...no loss of the Silmaril for Morgoth by Beren You must be skipping the part where the great house of Feanor actually hindered the recovery of the silmarils ;)
He is the orator and handyman, not the warrior. So when the Valarian team want to debate how great a warrior Fëanor was, they are being unfair towards Fëanor and the author IMO. I sure do agree with not taking things out of context; the statements which are debating were said in reply to the messenger of the valar, who said:
"Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art"
Could the messenger actually compare Melkor and Feanor in terms of oratory, craftmanship and based on these criteria declare that Feanor is no match? I truly doubt that this was what he had in mind.
To the messenger he replies (sorry for repeating):
"Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell"
And he previously said:
"After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying"
To what war is Feanor is going to? Not one of debates ;)
He is here estimating his martial capabilities; he is not asserting other qualities since they would be meaningless in the war he is going to. He definitely wasn't thinking that his skill of hand or word would win the day against Morgoth; he actually believed he is a match for Melkor. How wrong he was; too bad he only realised this at the moment of his death - better later than never.
And one more bit about the valar following Feanor: who were the first ones to pursue Melkor after he stole the silmarils? Was it the noldor or Feanor? No. The valar were the first ones; how could Feanor claim precedence?
So what then was the great thing that Fëanor did?

He brought the Noldor to Middle-earth! Why do you give him this merit? Galadriel (and maybe Fingon) sure did play a part in convincing the noldor to come - a thing which they would have done sooner or later, since: they weren't held in Aman against their will (this is only a lie instilled by Melkor); "the memory of Middle-earth under the stars remained in the hearts of the Noldor". And, as Hammersmith has so eloquently put it, the greatest number of the noldor eventually reached Middle-Earth in spite of Feanor, not due to him.
Oh? Was that really Manwë's prime function and task? Yes, I sure do think so:
Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim and the extrusion of Melkor was the end of 'Morgoth' as such, and for that age (and many ages after). It was thus, also, in a sense the end of Manwë's prime function and task as Elder King, until the End. He had been the Adversary of the Enemy. And let us have a look at what Eru himself thought on how well Manwë fullfilled that task Let us look elsewhere too - the part that you skipped in the quote from Myths transformed:
"But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru"
And I am not too sure that the self-centered Valar actually understood how great a spirit Fëanor had
I think they understood pretty well the status of Feanor compared to any vala, let alone the "mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä"; history proved their assesment quite true.

[YayGollum]

Hm. Cool point, Arvedui person. A good thing for hurting Mel that the Feanor character did was ---> Correct the mistake of the Valar types by taking them back to where they were meant to be. Also, good point on how the Valar types most probably did not know exactly how much of a fiery spirit the Feanor character had. Also, also, look at that part of the quote again ---> "And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest." I now get to nitpick and write that the word ---> "may" was used. Which means ---> "You might know how much of a fiery spirit that I have, and you might not." :rolleyes: So, either way, this part of the quote is now secured for my side, too.


Anyways, Thorondor_ person ---> Good point on what the Feanor character was probably talking about when he mentioned hurting Mel. I would not be surprised if you were correct about his state of brain and that he was only talking about achingly directly hurting Mel with his own sword. No large deal, though. Intentions don't matter. What actually ended up happening matters. Taking quotes out of context? I shall not. But I can correctly write that he was technically or at all correct by saying ---> "Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it." Well, at least that first part. Is there some quote that says whether or not the Valar types ever talked about him again? He doesn't specify as achingly direct as hurting Mel with his own sword. Also, sure, it my be the fault of some other characters for large masses of elves ending up in the Middle Earth place, but you will be correct by admitting that Feanor did the same at all, too.

As to your mention of who started pursuing Mel at all after the silmaril theft, sure, you are correct, but your side already admitted that the Valar types followed Feanor. Sure, the Valar types may have been the first to fight Mel. Sure, they may have been the first to pursue him after the theft of the silmaril things. But still. They still technically or in any way :rolleyes: followed him.

The Feanor spirit versus any random Ainur spirit point makes no sense in relation to proving whether or not the Valar types knew the level of fieriness in the Feanor character. sorry about that.

[Hammersmith]

As to your mention of who started pursuing Mel at all after the silmaril theft, sure, you are correct, but your side already admitted that the Valar types followed Feanor. Sure, the Valar types may have been the first to fight Mel. Sure, they may have been the first to pursue him after the theft of the silmaril things. But still. They still technically or in any way :rolleyes: followed him.
"Technically" only counts in horseshoes. As someone correctly pointed out earlier, "Technically" they could have followed Melian. Or even Tulkas. Simply proving that Feanor made the same journey chronologically before the main Valar assault does not prove that they followed him. Would you not agree that by "following him" they would have to have agreed with his philosophies and aims and gone in his footsteps? They didn't. They went with the goal of destroying Melkor; that much they had in common. But they went about it a different way for different reasons (out of mercy, not greed). Once again even they were hindered by Feanor's sons. I'm calling you up on your definition of the word "followed". I see it as meaning the spirit in which they went, which was definitely not following Feanor's. If you're talking about the geographical area they travelled to after he did, then frankly your argument is very weak.

[YayGollum]

Hm. I thought that it was ---> "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." oh well. :rolleyes: Anyways, why may I not be technical with the facts that I have? Because it is inconvenient for you? sorry about that.

Yes, I remember someone mentioning that you could truthfully write that the Valar types followed others to that Middle Earth place. None of those others matter to this debate, though. The part of the quote that you are writing about is only talking about the Valar types following the Feanor character in some unspecified way. I get to prove that they did. You get to try to prove me wrong. Why bring up characters and situations not mentioned in the quote?

Yes, I would agree that by "following him" they would have to have agreed with his philosophies and aims and things and gone in his footsteps. But then, I would have to add that there are many ways to look at the definition of ---> "follow" My technical way is any way at all, which is all that I need to win.

By the way, *sniff* poor Feanor. He didn't go for greed, even if you are excluding the righteous fury that I still think was his main motivation for doing stuff. If you are only thinking of him going to get his silmaril things back, he still didn't go for greed. He went to regain his spirit. A dude that the Feanor character might have admired but would never admit to admiring kills his dad, then steals a large chunk of his spirit. Poor artist, losing the best bit of art ever to be seen, ever. :( :rolleyes: oh well.

Anyways, how is my arguement weak if we are only looking at things in a geographical sense? The Feanor character headed for the Middle Earth area. So did the Valar types. I do not see how you could get confused. :confused:

[Hammersmith]

Yes, I would agree that by "following him" they would have to have agreed with his philosophies and aims and things and gone in his footsteps. But then, I would have to add that there are many ways to look at the definition of ---> "follow" My technical way is any way at all, which is all that I need to win.
I disagree that they 'followed him'. Their disparate goals happened to be in the same place, that is all. Feanor went for bloody vengeance and greed, the Valar went for justice on their own completely different terms.

By the way, *sniff* poor Feanor. He didn't go for greed, even if you are excluding the righteous fury that I still think was his main motivation for doing stuff. If you are only thinking of him going to get his silmaril things back, he still didn't go for greed. He went to regain his spirit. A dude that the Feanor character might have admired but would never admit to admiring kills his dad, then steals a large chunk of his spirit. Poor artist, losing the best bit of art ever to be seen, ever. :( :rolleyes: oh well.
Well, to argue that you forget that even before he knew of the theft and the murder of his father he was willing to fight the Vala themselves for the rights to the jewels (not that it would have come to that). I'd say that greed was a highly motivating factor.

Anyways, how is my arguement weak if we are only looking at things in a geographical sense? The Feanor character headed for the Middle Earth area. So did the Valar types. I do not see how you could get confused. :confused:
If I go to Surbiton to get a pizza and you also go to Surbiton to stop the heinous business of pizza selling, does that mean you've followed me? A simplistic example perhaps, but the premise that they both headed to the same place does not prove that one group were following the other. I'll repeat that Feanor went in one spirit, the Noldor initially went with him (being partially persuaded by his arguments) and were later hindered grossly by his foolish actions. The Valar went of their own volition as the would inevitably have gone. In fact, aside from his sons and their minute and ineffective clan, nobody really followed Feanor all the way.

[YayGollum]

Sure, I can see why you might think that going to the same place, one after the other, might not look like the later group was following the first group, but wait... No. That makes no sense. You disagree that one group going to the same location as a previous group does not equal following in any sense? Sounds crazy to me. Also, their intentions and later actions do not matter. Why not stick with the strictly physical as well as geographical idea? I understand why you wish for me to admit that following someone must have to deal with their reasons for going to the same location, but, as I wrote, there is more than one way to look at it. You haven't proven me wrong about my way of looking at it. Kind of annoying, smacking this bit of technicality around? Just drop this part of the debate. Look at another one. I have this part secured for my team. :eek: :rolleyes:

Anyways, here are a lot of bits that I am just having fun with which have no bearing on the debate (that I can see) ---> I would say that they both went out of different sorts of senses of duty, wouldn't you? Feanor, out of the duty of avenging his father person. The Valar types, out of the duty of stopping Mel from doing that which is popularly thought of as evil type things. Not good enough? :rolleyes: Hm. oh well.

How's about I tackle that bit about greed again? ---> Craziness. Is it greedy to wish for what is achingly as well as obviously yours? No.

How's about this point? ---> "later hindered grossly by his foolish actions." Why all of the focusing on this when we are only writing about whether he hurt the Mel dude or not? Who cares how much he might have indirectly helped him? oh well.

Also ---> "The Valar went of their own volition as the would inevitably have gone." Where is proof that they wouldn't have just stayed in paradise for all time? Sure, I understand the idea that they are expected to save the day, but I see no proof that they ever would have, if not for other people's actions.

"In fact, aside from his sons and their minute and ineffective clan, nobody really followed Feanor all the way." Have you ever attempted to peer into the brain of the average joe elf who never gets a line in any of this Tolkien person's stories? I have, just now. :rolleyes: Why not? I see that, since he has no especially main characterish defense in his brain, he was achingly moved by the Feanor character's speech and never forgot it. You saw how well that thing spurred large groups toward his ends. Sure, they later followed other leaders, but I would not be surprised if that speech was what laid the foundation for a pretty unreasonable hatred of Mel for all time. Sure, they later mostly praise their living leaders instead of Feanor, but do you think that the average joe elf ever stopped thinking that the Feanor character was a good one? oh well. Was it really a minute and ineffective clan? I obtained the sense that it was a pretty large group. Whoops.

[Thorondor_]

You disagree that one group going to the same location as a previous group does not equal following in any sense?...Why not stick with the strictly physical as well as geographical idea
But why not stick with chronology also? For the valar went out of Aman against Angband at the time of the awakening of the elves. So, technically and chronologically, he only follows the valar, not the other way around.
Also ---> "The Valar went of their own volition as the would inevitably have gone." Where is proof that they wouldn't have just stayed in paradise for all time? Sure, I understand the idea that they are expected to save the day, but I see no proof that they ever would have, if not for other people's actions
Could we look for some reasons in the Silmarillion concerning the actions of the Valar? First of all, the valar wouldn't attack sooner because "the hour is evil", or, as mentioned elsewhere by the sages of the elves, "the hour was not yet come". Then, you fail to mention that it was the evil deeds of Feanor (chief among them the oath, but let us not forget the blood-spilling) who alienated the noldor from the help of the valar. The oath must find its end, and the noldor must discern the truth spoken by the valar from the lies instilled by Melkor through grief, unfortunately. And let us also mention that Feanor spoke against the chance of repentance given by Mandos, thus causing the noldor to "shed tears unnumbered".
Was it really a minute and ineffective clan?
To a certain degree, ineffective it was, since "to evil end shall all things turn that they begin well". This too proved rather true, wouldn't you say? And their misfortune is also caused by Feanor.
"And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest." I now get to nitpick and write that the word ---> "may" was used. Which means ---> "You might know how much of a fiery spirit that I have, and you might not.
The Feanor spirit versus any random Ainur spirit point makes no sense in relation to proving whether or not the Valar types knew the level of fieriness in the Feanor character
I disagree; the word "may" actually implies that even Feanor doesn't believe the above statement 100%; call it wishfull thinking. In the quick end, he was proven wrong.
"Fire" is not a general refference, with little applicability or use in the real world (quite the contrary); sure, he had enough fire to burn himself out; anything else significant for achieving his ends? You previously agreed that I was correct concerning "what the Feanor character was probably talking about when he mentioned hurting Mel". To achieve this, he believes (or at least whishes) that Eru set enough fire (in terms of power) in him. The balrogs awakened him from his fantasies of inner power.

[YayGollum]

Thorondor_ person, I still win if we are sticking to the chronological order. Sure, the Valar types started out with a paradise in Middle Earth. Sure, they later came back to escort Mel to a holding cell (I came up with this crazy short story where, while Mel was being held in the halls that belonged to that Mandos dude, he noticed that Vaire lady weaving stuff. I never decided what he would have done, but way later, some random dead elf would notice the artwork and find that it had some fundamental flaw or deeply set as well as silly philosophical bent to it. oh well. :rolleyes: ). Even though the Feanor character headed to the Middle Earth area after they did, they still ended up following him. Yikes! Much confusion on what following can mean, for some reason! :confused: The timeline that you wish to write about ---> "Valar types are in Middle Earth...Feanor heads there later...Valar types end up following" That looks good to me. Sure, you could write that he followed them. Why not? They still ended up following him, which is all that the quote mentions.

To your bit versus my mentioning of the word ---> "may" ---> Sure, it could imply that the Feanor character isn't completely sure about what he's talking about. Why not? He doesn't know for sure what they know about him. But then, how was he proven wrong? Did you find some quote that tells us what they knew about his particular level of fieriness? Yay! I eagerly await it!

[Arvedui]

Why do you give him this merit? Galadriel (and maybe Fingon) sure did play a part in convincing the noldor to come - a thing which they would have done sooner or later, since: they weren't held in Aman against their will (this is only a lie instilled by Melkor);
You asked for a reason, and here it comes:
From The Silmarillion:
Fëanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it; and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and few were his words, and filled with anger and pride; and hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness. His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils. He claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar. [...]
But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone; and Orodreth, alone of his sons, spoke in like manner. Finrod was with Turgon, his friend; but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little; and with Fingon stood as they ever did Angrod and Aegnor, sons of Finarfin. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.
At length after long debate Fëanor prevailed, and the greater part of the Noldor there assembled he set aflame with the desire of new things and strange countries. Therefore when Finarfin spoke yet again for heed and delay, a great shout went up: 'Nay, let us be gone!' And straightway Fëanor and his sons began to prepare for the marching forth.
Could you tell me where you get the idea that Galadriel played a part in this? At least a part in bringing the Noldor to Middle-earth because of their own idea? Good luck...
Now, for bringing up the question concerning the responsibilities of the Valar again.
From Converse of Manwë and Eru:Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
Ok, this saying from Eru is in retrospect and is mainly concerning the fact that the Valar should have acted against Melkor long before the Children awoke. But still they managed to make the same mistake all over again. When Melkor/Morgoth destroyed Laurelin and Telperion, and after that committed the first murder in Aman, the Valar did nothing until many long years had passed, exept from one thing: the raising of the Pelóri, to guard their own land, thus don't giving a damn about most of Arda. Probably because Fëanor had hurt their feelings or something. Some governors, eh?
The Valar didn't move one bit until Eärendil managed to pass through all their traps and come to plead on behalf of the Two Kindreds!

Oh, and who can say that Eärendil would have come to be after all, if it hadn't so happened that the Noldor followed Fëanor to Middle-earth?

[Thorondor_]

Could you tell me where you get the idea that Galadriel played a part in this?At least a part in bringing the Noldor to Middle-earth because of their own idea?
But you gave the exact quote I had in mind: "but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone" [her role in the debate confirmed in the Anals of Aman "As AAm was first written the alignments of the Noldorin princes were already changed from the account in QS, since Angrod and Egnor were now opposed to Feanor - and Galadriel now has a part in the matter, being eager to leave Aman"; in Unfinished Tales, we learn that she was "proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget"]
the Valar did nothing until many long years had passed, exept from one thing: the raising of the Pelóri, to guard their own land, thus don't giving a damn about most of Arda. Probably because Fëanor had hurt their feelings or something. Some governors, eh?
The Valar didn't move one bit until Eärendil managed to pass through all their traps and come to plead on behalf of the Two Kindreds I think your presentation of the actions of the valar is rather questionable:

- "but they were not idle, as Feanor declared in the folly of his heart, for the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands" and "they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile"

- they made the sun and the moon, which proved very helpful in the war against Melkor; for he retreated into the depths of his fortress out of fear, and his plans were hindered by this "unlooked-for stroke of the Valar"; but the noldor don't make that much of a good use of his hesitation -which is, again, due to Feanor's great deeds;

- "Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth". Should we make a quick review of the importance of the eagles? They saved (start counting): Fingon & Maedhros; Beren & Luthien; Gandalf, Sam & Frodo, Bilbo. They also guard Gondolin and saved the body of Fingolfin, marring the face of Melkor;
[One quick note: when Fingon pleas for help, Manwe responds, for he "still had pity for the exiled Elves" - now pity isn't exactly what Feanor had in mind, is it?]

- it is due to Ulmo that the cities of Gondolin and Nargothrond are built.
The Valar didn't move one bit until Eärendil managed to pass through all their traps and come to plead on behalf of the Two Kindreds Oh really? What about Ulmo, who:
- helps the survivors of Gondolin to pass over the mountains;
- saves Elwing (who casted herself into sea, running from the sons of Feanor - go figure) together with the silmaril, ["the light of which the Valar themselves had made"] that helped them reach the Aman:
"And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows, and they looked upon Tol Eressea the Lonely Isle, but tarried not"
Oh, and who can say that Eärendil would have come to be after all, if it hadn't so happened that the Noldor followed Fëanor to Middle-earth? Imo, this is twisted view on the historry; if Feanor hadn't committed all his crimes against the valar and the elves, he wouldn't have alienated the noldor from the help of the valar, now would he? He drove them onward in an "evil hour", even against their chance of repentance; the elves pay the bill of his megalomany.

[Ithrynluin]

2. If he did enough hurt to Mel that the Valar types will mention it at some point.

What the quote does speak of is if the Valar types will mention his deeds at any point.

It's not about that at all. It's about whether Fëanor did so much hurt to Melkor that even the gods would marvel to hear it. Feanor was slain instants after he arrived to Middle-earth. That is hardly something to be wondered about by even one coeval to Feanor (i.e. one of the Calaquendi), let alone by the gods who were the only ones who could do, and did, any real damage to Melkor.

For the third part, Yay you people for sticking to it! But then, why are you sticking to it, if it is so achingly already secured for my side? Both sides have admitted that the Valar types followed the Feanor character in any way at all, yes? Yes. Why should points be brought up about ---> "Oh, but the Feanor character was following the Valar types, since they went to that Middle Earth place before he was ever born!" or ---> "Sure, the Valar types showed up in that Middle Earth place after a while. This does not mean that they were following him. They were following plenty of characters that we are actually fans of. They were following for particular reasons that did not have much to do with the Feanor character." Those do not really matter. They did end up following him in any way. Intentions do not matter. The quote speaks of actions only.


The Valar did not follow Fëanor. The Valar did not follow anyone. They went to Middle-earth at the behest of Earendil to salvage Men and Elves from the superior power of Morgoth. If you continue to persist with this absurd notion, then show how it was that the Valar followed Fëanor exactly, and not Earendil, Melian, Melkor. Feel free to tackle all of these examples and successfully illustrate the difference between Feanor's case and the rest, as regards the gods following any of them. I won't be holding my breath.

Those little quote things? Useless. Feanor speaks of the silmaril type things in his oath because that's what others would wish to hear and speaking of avenging his father person shouldn't matter to most others. The boring Fingolfin character's opinion should have no bearing, either. Unless there is some bit of evidence that the Fingolfin character was infallible.

The death of their High-King wouldn't matter to others? My my. Talk about persevering in one's own opinion despite clear-cut evidence by Fingolfin, half-brother of Fëanor, and Fëanor himself.

By the way, *sniff* poor Feanor. He didn't go for greed, even if you are excluding the righteous fury that I still think was his main motivation for doing stuff. If you are only thinking of him going to get his silmaril things back, he still didn't go for greed. He went to regain his spirit. A dude that the Feanor character might have admired but would never admit to admiring kills his dad, then steals a large chunk of his spirit. Poor artist, losing the best bit of art ever to be seen, ever. oh well.


Oh that is rich. Where is it said that Feanor poured part of his spirit into the Silmarils? None could do that save the Ainur. The only "spirit" that could be said was in the Silmarils was that of Yavanna and perhaps a few other Valar, from whom the light of the Two Trees proceeded.

Yes, he was proven right that he would do harm to Mel. I gave examples where he hurt the guy at all. Here they are again ---> In that first little skirmish where he died, he killed at least one minion of Mel. Also, he brought the elves to Middle Earth.

He brought the Noldor to Middle-earth!


Let's call a spade a spade, why don't we? At least one minion of Melkor's against probably hundreds of thousands of his servants in total? And dying in the process? Frankly, that is pathetic, and could not be more insignificant. About his "bringing the elves to Middle-earth" - he 'brought' noone to Middle-earth, the stolen ships did that. He only dragged a rather limited following with him, consisting of his sons and other faithful followers. The great bulk of the Noldor was lead to Middle-earth by Fingolfin, so even if you consider the deeds of Fëanor's sons after Fëanor's death as somehow reverberating his own glory and giving him credit (which is smack-down wrong), you cannot in any way claim the same for the majority of the Noldor and keep a straight face. Sowwy doc.

Knowing how much damage he did versus how much damage an entire race did does not tell us if he did any damage at all to Mel, which is what the quote is looking for. Only the first part of the versus thing tells us that.

The quote is looking for an immense amount of damage and outstanding deeds performed against Melkor, that could not be expected to be done by anyone other than the peers of Melkor themselves - the Valar. The Valar would wonder to hear if Feanor could indeed achieve that. He failed in causing any, even miniscule, damage. Sadly, even all the Noldor combined, albeit keeping Morgoth at bay for many a century, also failed to do "such hurt to the Foe of the Valar."

He is the orator and handyman, not the warrior.So when the Valarian team want to debate how great a warrior Fëanor was, they are being unfair towards Fëanor and the author IMO.


Indeed. By what stretch of the imagination, then, did the orator and handyman conceive that he and his relatively small following could do any substantial hurt to Morgoth? Arrogance it was that guided his heart to utter boisterous words back in Valinor, and arrogance it was now that amplified visions of his personal strength to the n-th degree.

Concerning Fëanor's spirit, there isn't much to say that isn't already known to most readers of Tolkien. There are no tales showing any living of the Children that had been provided with a stronger spirit than Fëanor. At least none that I have found that were born with a spirit so strong that it emptied all strength from his mother:

His spirit was very great. None denied it, neither we nor the Valar. It is Fëanor's hubris and overweening pride, however, that make him underestimate the Valar's appraisal of the greatness of his own spirit, the very same spirits who were in immediate contact with Iluvatar, the maker of Fëanor's spirit.

How's about I tackle that bit about greed again? ---> Craziness. Is it greedy to wish for what is achingly as well as obviously yours? No.


Sure it is when your intent is to drag a whole people into it under the false pretense that you want to deliver them from alleged thraldom. Here we have it, ladies and gents, the biggest sheep of all - Fëanor bringing the lies of Melkor to fruition more than anyone else. Pitiful.

[YayGollum]

Yay for the ithrynluin person! Showing a bit of fight! :rolleyes: Yay for you finding anything wrong with my summing ups of the three points that we should be sticking to in this debate, too. Sure, it looks like you are correct. But still. Neither of us has any proof as to whether or not the Valar types ever wondered at what the Feanor character did. Sure, we both have evidence that our sides won't stop writing about, but neither of us has anything definitive. Dang. You people write ---> They most probably wouldn't have wondered at what he did because of all that they were capable of and ended up doing. We write ---> They most probably did wonder at what he did because he was achingly obviously the greatest elf of all time and, even though they most likely were not large fans of what he did, he accomplished some pretty cool feats for some random as well as spoiled elf who never had to work a day in his life. :rolleyes: See? Not much for either of us, really.

No need for holding of breath, crazy person. That would be unwise. Even if I had been here at the time of your post. I would not want my opponents passing out too early. :rolleyes: Anyways, at your challenge ---> No, there is not much of a difference between the Valar types following the Feanor character versus them following any of those other characters that you mentioned. At least not in the way that I wish to write of them following anyone. :D Here is one more example of what I am attempting to communicate ---> One guy heads to the aforely mentioned pizza selling establishment. Years later, his son goes to the empty lot where the building once was. He was following in his father's footsteps, says the random as well as especially observant passerby, as the kid blinks inquisitively, since he grew up in an orphanage and never knew his father. :rolleyes: See how intentions don't have to matter?

I didn't write that the death of some random elf wouldn't matter to some. I wrote that that particular death shouldn't have mattered to the still alive people. Not that it matters that much to this debate. :rolleyes: Calm down.

Hm. I am not sure if it is ever achingly as well as specifically written that the Feanor character grabbed a large chunk of his spirit and inserted it into the "Insert Large Chunk Of Creator's Spirit Here" slot cunningly hidden on the silmaril things. I always thought that it went without saying. Whoops. Am ashamed, but not really, of course. Did not elves make a large deal about making random bits of art and never having the ability to do it again? I thought that that was because they had a certain amount of spirit energy that they could ever use. Just like Mel was weakened since he was spreading his spirit energy around too much. I thought that since a large chunk of the Feanor character's spirit went into making the silmaril things, he was pretty justified in being so angry that his enemy had them. Am I wrong? Not that this matters to the debate, either. just having fun.

Versus your bit on speaking of spades only as that which their manufacturers wish us to call them (I disagree on that point, but oh well. I call them ---> "evidence-removing aid type things" and ---> "specialized abyss forming tools" or ---> "the type of playing cards that are everyone's favorite, which means that they can't be mine" :rolleyes: The point was ---> keep an open mind, crazy people.) and the Fingolfin character stupidly volunteering to weed out the elves without cold resistances ---> I was attempting to communicate the idea that the Feanor character did much hurt to the Mel character by setting the elves in motion that obviously worked for him in the end. I wasn't trying to write that he brought the most elves to Middle Earth, so he gets the most credit. :rolleyes:

I shall skip your next two points to move on to ---> "His spirit was very great. None denied it, neither we nor the Valar. It is Fëanor's hubris and overweening pride, however, that make him underestimate the Valar's appraisal of the greatness of his own spirit, the very same spirits who were in immediate contact with Iluvatar, the maker of Fëanor's spirit." You are writing that for the Valar types most probably knew exactly how much of a fiery spirit the Feanor character had just because they had any sort of contact with the big as well as creepy dude in charge? I doubt it. That seems a bit tedious of the big as well as creepy dude in charge. "Okay, Spirit Of Sock Puppet, or as I muchly prefer, Manwe, Eru's Pet, are you paying attention? Write this down. Oh, you have no Sticky Notes on hand? Fine, then. Just remember this: I have the list of the levels of fieriness that I have put into every elf in existence so far. Measured in the brand new unit of measurement that I came up with just for fieriness of spirit, the Ackthat'sfiery. Well, directly at the top of the list, we have Feanor, with twenty-seven thousand Ackthat'sfierys. Why so much? Oh, you'll see. It'll make a great story!" :rolleyes:

Sure it is when your intent is to drag a whole people into it under the false pretense that you want to deliver them from alleged thraldom. Here we have it, ladies and gents, the biggest sheep of all - Fëanor bringing the lies of Melkor to fruition more than anyone else. Pitiful.

Anyways, for your last bit that has nothing to do with the debate ---> Sure, you could write that it wasn't true that they were prisoners, but why blame the Feanor character for the lie? Did not all of them believe that at the time? Is it not understandable for them to be angry if it was true? Also, part of the point of me calling characters sheep is because they have no brains of their own and merely follow any random dude who looks like a leader. Calling the Feanor a sheep doesn't make much sense, just because he was tricked by Mel. Also, also, isn't calling the Feanor character the biggest sheep kind of not in tune with what calling people sheep means? oh well.

[Arvedui]

First of all, dear Valarians. The question we are debating is the following:
And it may be that Eru has set a greater fire in me than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me
The debate is not if Fëanor's actions were evil or whatever...:rolleyes:
And this is Manwë's take on the matter at hand:

From The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor:
And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

But you gave the exact quote I had in mind: "but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone" [her role in the debate confirmed in the Anals of Aman "As AAm was first written the alignments of the Noldorin princes were already changed from the account in QS, since Angrod and Egnor were now opposed to Feanor - and Galadriel now has a part in the matter, being eager to leave Aman"; in Unfinished Tales, we learn that she was "proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget"
Read the whole quote I provided:
No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart,[...]Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words and the final paragraph states the point directly: At length after long debate Fëanor prevailed, and the greater part of the Noldor there assembled he set aflame with the desire of new things and strange countries. Therefore when Finarfin spoke yet again for heed and delay, a great shout went up: 'Nay, let us be gone!'

So again: one cannot single out Fëanor's personal fighting capabilities and discuss those. It is the results of his actions as a whole that is to be debated. And the main result is that most of the Noldor brought the fight to Morgoth, thus limiting Morgoth's destruction to a limited part of northwestern Middle-earth.

[Thorondor_]

He didn't go for greed, even if you are excluding the righteous fury that I still think was his main motivation for doing stuff. If you are only thinking of him going to get his silmaril things back, he still didn't go for greed
I disagree; "For Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own"(chapter 7)
And this is Manwë's take on the matter at hand:
No, these words of Manwe don't address our quote, but the last words of Feanor in reply to the herald which proclaims the Doom of the Noldor; here, indeed, Feanor is talking about the merits of the noldor, not his:
We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda

A different game...
And, also, as Mandos states after the quote you gave:"And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon." No mention of his great deeds I would say, only of a quick end. This is what I believe the valar came to think about him "and they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil". They didn't wonder to hear about him, they mourned him, as someone marred.
[moreover, even the quote you provided (which deals with the merits of the noldor) does not imply that the valar will ever wonder to hear about even their merits]
one cannot single out Fëanor's personal fighting capabilities and discuss those
However, we are not talking about capabilities, but of achievements. What did he achieve? Bringing strife between the noldor and the valar and among the noldor themselves and ending the high days? Burning the greatest ships ever to be build? Slaying of his kin? Drawing the sword against his brother?
And the main result is that most of the Noldor brought the fight to Morgoth
The desire for Middle-Earth is a noldorian characteristic, it didn't begin with Feanor; moreover,when push comes to shove, he renounced them:

"What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn"
And, concerning the consequences of this action for Fingolfin's host:

"..Finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxe and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe. There Elenwe the wife of Turgon was lost, and many others perished also; and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Outer Lands. Small love for Feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him"

[Arvedui]

Throughout their posts, the Valarians have come up with quite a few statemants and assumptions that up until now have remained uncontested:
Whatever fire Fëanor had, it sure was no match the balrogs from Angband; thus, the words which were said to him were proven most true; he cannot even face balrogs, let alone a Vala; therefore, his first claim is false.
What on earth has the “size” of his inner fire have to do with fighting Balrogs and whatnot?

Not to be discarded is also the fact that he had burned the Telerin ships, whereupon his own son had perished.
Where do you get that idea? If you read The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand and Its Realms you can be able to place each and everyone of the sons of Fëanor in places in Beleriand long after the first landing.

How do we know they wouldn’t have? Fëanor certainly was the catalyst in the rebellion of the Noldor, but without him the others may have gone about organizing it much better and may even have obtained the help of the Valar early on.
This is pure speculation, and there is no hint anywhere in Tolkien’s works that may give your speculation any support.

The point is that the Valar always came after Melkor, completely irregardless of Fëanor or anyone else for that matter.
The point is that the Valar did not come after Melkor/Morgoth this time, not until Eärendil came to beg for aid. Oh, and Eärendil was 50% Noldor, wasn’t he?

Up until his death, though they were following him he did his utmost to hurt or kill dozens of his followers.
I want you to give us one proof of this. The crossing of the Helcaraxë was not something that Fëanor forced on those who ventured on that adventure. In fact, they could have chosen to return to Aman.

Would it not have been better for the Noldor to ignore Fëanor’s hot-headedness and wait until the Valar themselves reckoned the time right to lead the liberation of Middle-earth?
First of all, there is no knowing, is there?
Secondly, when would the Valar have reckoned the time to be right? Keep in mind that by the time that Fëanor and his sons landed in Middle-earth, the Armies of Morgoth had already overrun most of Beleriand:
From The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor:
The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim with great slaughter, and hunted over the Mountains of Shadow into the great plain of Ard-galen, that lay northward of Dorthonion. There the armies of Morgoth that had passed south into the Vale of Sirion and beleaguered Círdan in the Havens of the Falas came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin. For Celegorm, Fëanor's son, having news of them, waylaid them with a part of the Elven-host, and coming down upon them out of the hills near Eithel Sirion drove them into the Fen of Serech. Evil indeed were the tidings that came at last to Angband, and Morgoth was dismayed. Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves.

What were the Valar doing at this moment?

I may be wrong, but there is no refference to his fighting skills, only his eloquency and craftmanship.
Oh yes, you are indeed wrong:
From The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor:
For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin.
Read this, and say again that there is no reference to his fighting skills!

To what war is Fëanor going to? Not one of debates ;)
I think that the war was in fact called Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the Battle-under-Stars. The Second Battle in the Wars of Beleriand.

Well, to argue that you forget that even before he knew of the theft and the murder of his father he was willing to fight the Vala themselves for the rights to the jewels Can you find the quote that says that Fëanor was willing to fight the Valar? Because I can’t find it.

- they made the sun and the moon, which proved very helpful in the war against Melkor; for he retreated into the depths of his fortress out of fear, and his plans were hindered by this "unlooked-for stroke of the Valar"; but the noldor don't make that much of a good use of his hesitation -which is, again, due to Feanor's great deeds;

- "Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth".
Would the valar indeed have done any of this if the Noldor hadn’t rebelled and gone to Middle-earth? Up until this moment, the Valar hadn’t given much thought to Middle-earth had they? And as you yourself have stated earlier, Manwë sent the Eagles because he still had pity for the exiled Elves!

Oh really? What about Ulmo, who:
- helps the survivors of Gondolin to pass over the mountains;
- saves Elwing
And who admits that his acts are contrary to what his fellow Ainur wants…

Let's call a spade a spade, why don't we? At least one minion of Melkor's against probably hundreds of thousands of his servants in total? And dying in the process? Frankly, that is pathetic, and could not be more insignificant.
I think that I have already provided a fitting quote to show that you are underestimating Fëanor’s actions more than just a little bit…
He only dragged a rather limited following with him, consisting of his sons and other faithful followers.
From The Silmarillion, Of the Flight Of the Noldor
And of all the Noldor in Valinor, who were grown now to a great people, but one tithe refused to take the road Hmmm… OK, I guess that 90% can also be called a limitation…

And, also, as Mandos states after the quote you gave:"And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon." No mention of his great deeds I would say, only of a quick end.
Again: are we debating whether his actions were great, or if they were evil?

"and they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil".
Thank you, I was planning on bringing up that quote myself. But I had in fact planned to give the following sentences as well:
For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head.
But I can surely understand why you didn’t want to bring that to the table, though. Is there really any reason to keep debating how great a fire Eru had set in Fëanor?

However, we are not talking about capabilities, but of achievements. What did he achieve? Bringing strife between the noldor and the valar and among the noldor themselves and ending the high days? Burning the greatest ships ever to be build? Slaying of his kin? Drawing the sword against his brother?
A number of points to be made:
1) It was the actions of Melkor/Morgoth that ended the high days.
2) The Ainur also slayed their own kin, so I guess that they followed Fëanor on that point.
3) Drawing the sword against their brother? I guess that it is only fair to say that the Valar were in fact the first to do that…

Finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxe and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe. There Elenwe the wife of Turgon was lost, and many others perished also; and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Outer Lands. Small love for Feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him
But they did not turn back! They were free to do so if they had wanted to.

[Arvedui]

Such hurt will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it.

What does it mean to actually hurt Melkor/Morgoth? To make a good assumption of that, one will have to take a look at what Morgoth sought to accomplish:

From HoME X, Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed:
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. (…)
Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction.(…)
This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.

So again: by bringing the Noldor to Middle-earth, Morgoth was in fact checked. The quote to prove this has been given before.

And what else can be said was achieved because Fëanor talked the Noldor into returning to Middle-earth?
From The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
These things the Valar did (the making of the Sun and the Moon), recalling in their twilight the darkness of the lands of Arda; and they resolved now to illumine Middle-earth and with light to hinder the deeds of Melkor. For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwë knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh.
Now it dawned on the Valar that Arda was in fact more than Valinor…

From The Silmarillion, Of Men
The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor.
Here we have it again: but for the valour of the Noldor.

From The Silmarillion, Of Men
To Hildórien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world.
A good thing that Men encountered the Noldor then, before all of them came under the dominion of Morgoth!

From The Silmarillion, Of Men
But in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor. And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the offspring of elf and mortal, Eärendil, and Elwing, and Elrond their child.

And it was not only Men who gained from befriending the Noldor:
From The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor
Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit; for the Naugrim learned many secrets of craft in those days, so that the smiths and masons of Nogrod and Belegost became renowned among their kin,

So what it came down to was that Elves, Men and Dwarves were united against Morgoth, and prevented him from destroying all living peoples. The only reason we have been given as to why the Noldor came to Middle-earth, is because they were seduced to do so by Fëanor.
Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

[Thorondor_]

Throughout their posts, the Valarians have come up with quite a few statemants and assumptions that up until now have remained uncontested:
Quote:

Whatever fire Fëanor had, it sure was no match the balrogs from Angband; thus, the words which were said to him were proven most true; he cannot even face balrogs, let alone a Vala; therefore, his first claim is false. What on earth has the “size” of his inner fire have to do with fighting Balrogs and whatnot? :eek:
The issue that the messenger of the valar raised was that Feanor was not great enough to fight against a vala - let alone "the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä", as Melkor is described in "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor". As history has it, Fenor obviously over-estimated "the fire Eru set in him", as in ability to achieve his goals. He, as an individual - which is what we are discussing - failed rather early on in his quest.
...
"Fire" is not a general refference, with little applicability or use in the real world (quite the contrary); sure, he had enough fire to burn himself out; anything else significant for achieving his ends? You previously agreed that I was correct concerning "what the Feanor character was probably talking about when he mentioned hurting Mel". To achieve this, he believes (or at least whishes) that Eru set enough fire (in terms of power) in him. The balrogs awakened him from his fantasies of inner power. The point is that the Valar did not come after Melkor/Morgoth this time, not until Eärendil came to beg for aid I disagree; the valar went after Melkor even sooner than Feanor. And let us not forget why the valar didn't give help to the exiled noldor *cough*Feanor*cough*

Would it not have been better for the Noldor to ignore Fëanor’s hot-headedness and wait until the Valar themselves reckoned the time right to lead the liberation of Middle-earth? First of all, there is no knowing, is there? But why disregard the messenger of the valar?
Against the folly of Feanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee He doesn't say: it will be bad for you no matter what; he only warns that they shouldn't follow Feanor's plans.
Drawing the sword against their brother? I guess that it is only fair to say that the Valar were in fact the first to do that… Yes but in the case of the valar we are speaking of duty, doing the right thing, observing the will of Eru; in the case of Feanor, we speak of marring. You sort of miss morality in your above comparison.
But they did not turn back! They were free to do so if they had wanted to But guess what: they decided to come to M-E, which is against Feanor's plans. And who actually plotted the noldor return to Middle Earth in the very first place? Melkor. If Feanor has merit out of talking others into a certain action, he should split it. However, whatever merit he had at starting a rebellion in an evil hour, he sure did renounced it, as proven by the given quote.
A good thing that Men encountered the Noldor then, before all of them came under the dominion of Morgoth! Melkor marred the Men before their meeting with the noldor.
Secondly, when would the Valar have reckoned the time to be right?
While remembering that at the time of the noldor rebellion, Melkor was named the mightiest of all the dwellers in Ea, let us look at these quotes from Morgoth's Ring:
But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda

The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body

[Thorondor_]

Can you find the quote that says that Fëanor was willing to fight the Valar? From Of the flight of the noldor:
They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Iluvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwe they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession
To what war is Fëanor going to? Not one of debates ;) I think that the war was in fact called Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the Battle-under-Stars. The Second Battle in the Wars of Beleriand I already posted about the Battle under the stars; my tongue-in-cheek remark was addressing your statement:
He is the orator and handyman, not the warrior. So when the Valarian team want to debate how great a warrior Fëanor was, they are being unfair towards Fëanor and the author IMO But then again, you seem to have changed your mind about it.
Up until his death, though they were following him he did his utmost to hurt or kill dozens of his followers. I want you to give us one proof of this. I would say that these actions of Feanor brought most hurt to his followers:
- "stirring the noldor into madness" by his speech, which was a mere spreading of Melkor's lies;
- the oath - need I say more?;
- the slaying of the elves;
- overhasting the noldor in their return, so that they don't have time to reconsider the foolishness of their actions
- speaking against the chance of repentance given by the last herald of the valar
- the stealing and the burning of the teleri ships
And he really did try seriously to accomplish all these ;)
The crossing of the Helcaraxë was not something that Fëanor forced on those who ventured on that adventure. In fact, they could have chosen to return to Aman These elves, one of the proudest ever, could not have returned to Valinor in shame and face the doom of the valar for the kinslaying (again, thank Feanor for that too). It was Feanor's treason that gave them the right push to do something that even he thought it is impossible.
What were the Valar doing at this moment? Creating the sun and the moon ?
And who admits that his acts are contrary to what his fellow Ainur wants I disagree; in the continuation of the quote you gave from "Of Men", it is stated that nonetheless "took thought for [the Men] aiding the counsel and will of Manwe". I doubt that Ulmo's other actions are at odds with the valar, esspecially since, in Ainulindale, it is stated that "And Manwe and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar".
The only reason we have been given as to why the Noldor came to Middle-earth, is because they were seduced to do so by Fëanor I disagree:
As the ages passed the Vanyar grew to love the land of the Valar and the full light of the Trees, and they forsook the city of Tirion upon Tuna, and dwelt thereafter upon the mountain of Manwe, or about the plains and woods of Valinor, and became sundered from the Noldor. But the memory of Middle-earth under the stars remained in the hearts of the Noldor When he saw that many leaned towards him, Melkor would often walk among them, and amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought. Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will, in power and freedom in the East; and then whispers went abroad that the Valar had brought the Eldar to Aman because of their jealousy, fearing that the beauty of the Quendi and the makers' power that Iluvatar had bequeathed to them would grow too great for the Valar to govern, as the Elves waxed and spread over the wide lands of the world

[YayGollum]

Has this quote been offered yet? Lots of crazy quotes have been flying, most of which I don't believe are achingly as well as strictly focused on the quote (added by the incorrect side to be negative typed distractions, no doubt! :eek: :rolleyes: ), so I might have missed this, which helps out with the "Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it" part of the quote --->

"And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwe the answers of Feanor to this heralds, Manwe wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: "So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been."

People are always debating about whether or not the stuff that the Feanor character did was really worthy of praise. They can't debate about whether or not the Valar types wondered at what he did, which is all that the quote looks for. In the quote that I gave, this Spirit Of Sock Puppet Manwe character wonders at the fact that the superly cool as well as achingly original Feanor character could summon a creepy conversation with that Eru guy in his brain. He is obviously surprised. He wonders at what the Feanor character did.

Also, the quote that is part of the premise of this debate has the Feanor character specifying that he will "do such hurt" or something like that. The quote that talks about the Manwe character's reaction shows that at least he thinks of Feanor as the Noldor. Or maybe just that the Noldor are Feanor's implements of destruction. If the mighty in that Ring Of Doom place consider the stuff that the Noldor will do as Feanor's will being implemented, they achingly obviously wonder at the hurt that he did to the Mel dude.

[Arvedui]

I disagree; the valar went after Melkor even sooner than Feanor. And let us not forget why the valar didn't give help to the exiled noldor *cough*Feanor*cough*
If we were to follow your argument, the whole debate is void. We are now debating what happened after the Noldor left Tirion.

But why disregard the messenger of the valar? Ever heard about something called "Free Will"?

Yes but in the case of the valar we are speaking of duty, doing the right thing, observing the will of Eru; in the case of Feanor, we speak of marring. You sort of miss morality in your above comparison.Why are you constantly trying to make this a debate of wrong and right? It is not!

Melkor marred the Men before their meeting with the noldor. Melkor marred all the Eruhíni, not only Men. That is the consequence of Arda Marred.

Now, Thorondor_, you provided a long quote from Morgoth's Ring. Very good. I will not repeat all of it here, but only emphasize one sentence:The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. This is the sum of a lot of what is stated in your quote. And I recognize that you are agreeing that destruction was limited to Beleriand. And as I have given in quote before: The reason that destruction was limited to Beleriand was that the actions of the Noldor checked the expansion of Melkor/Morgoth!

I asked if you could provide a quote that said that Fëanor was willing to fight the Valar. You reply with quoting from the Oath-taking. But: Your point to begin with was that Fëanor was willing to fight the Valar before he knew that his father was dead. The Oath was sworn some time after he knew that. Please be consistent.

I already posted about the Battle under the stars; my tongue-in-cheek remark Ooops! I guess I need to lighten up a bit, don't I ;) :D
However:
But then again, you seem to have changed your mind about it.
No, I have not. I merely pointed out that Fëanor did in fact take up arms on one occation. If he had been a true warrior, he would not have run away ahead of the others. But I guess that he did this because of his great inner fire...

I would say that these actions of Feanor brought most hurt to his followers:
- "stirring the noldor into madness" by his speech, which was a mere spreading of Melkor's lies;
- the oath - need I say more?;
- the slaying of the elves;
- overhasting the noldor in their return, so that they don't have time to reconsider the foolishness of their actions
- speaking against the chance of repentance given by the last herald of the valar
- the stealing and the burning of the teleri ships
And he really did try seriously to accomplish all these
First of all, the Oath: Only Fëanor and his sons swore that oath.
Secondly: none of your points work to show how Fëanor directly hurt or killed any of his followers.

These elves, one of the proudest ever, could not have returned to Valinor in shame and face the doom of the valar for the kinslaying (again, thank Feanor for that too). It was Feanor's treason that gave them the right push to do something that even he thought it is impossible. If we were to follow your earlier reasoning, then Fëanor didn't want those Elves to follow him to Middle-earth, did he? You are being inconsistent again.

Creating the sun and the moon? Why did t