Similarities of Valar

[Noldor_returned]

Just wondering who people think is similar to each of the Valar for eg: Morgoth and the Devil, Ulmo and Poseiden.
If you make a suggestion, can you also put what race they're from.

[Majimaune]

well there are similarities between the Valar and the Greek/Roman gods but the thing is that the Greek/Roman gods i think have more power then the Valar
I say get barly on this thread he'll have something good to say

[Walter]

Just wondering who people think is similar to each of the Valar for eg: Morgoth and the Devil, Ulmo and Poseiden.
Generally I think this is not a bad idea, but - especially since this thread is in an area where a some in-depth discussion is expected - I would suggest that we also elaborate a little (and with "a little" I mean more than but one sentence) why we do see a similarity...

Hence I would ask you to write a few paragraphs on what parallels you have in mind for Morgoth and the Devil and Ulmo and Poseidon. Maybe you could also explain where the parallels cease...


...or else, I think, we should ask a moderator to move the thread into one of the more lighthearted sections...

[Noldor_returned]

I see your point. Well for Morgoth and the Devil, I find that few people picked up on this. Morgoth, formerly Melkor, was a creation, of Eru Illuvatar, a.k.a. God. Melkor dreamed of more power and fought back against Eru. This is similar to Lucifah (i don't know the correct spelling) or Satan, fighting back against God.
As for Poseiden and Ulmo, this came to me fairly easily. Poseiden was the Greek God of the ocean and seas, who also had a terrible temper. Ulmo is Tolkien's God of the sea and has a terrible temper.
Now, if anyone else has an answer, please don't be afraid to post it.

[Thorondor_]

Ulmo is Tolkien's God of the sea and has a terrible temper
I wouldn't agree. Perhaps you are reffering to Osse as having "a terrible temper".

[Majimaune]

I wouldn't agree. Perhaps you are reffering to Osse as having "a terrible temper".
yes i think it was osse that had a terrible temper
there are other similarites that are there for instance not just between gods and tolkien gods but people as well such as i think achilles and aragorn i dont know why though but there are similarites between the too
1) they both have a very high ansestry eg. elendil and herecles
2) they are both born to be kings
3) they are both strong leaders
i cant think of any more at the current time but if i do i'll post them up

[Noldor_returned]

Can I just say now, you're welcome to put any character simalarities up, but try and keep it to Valar only.

[Walter]

I see your point. Well for Morgoth and the Devil, I find that few people picked up on this. Morgoth, formerly Melkor, was a creation, of Eru Illuvatar, a.k.a. God. Melkor dreamed of more power and fought back against Eru. This is similar to Lucifah (i don't know the correct spelling) or Satan, fighting back against God.
I hear you, but I was hoping for a few facts that would back up your observation.

In the Gospels of the New Testament we have the Devil or Satan or Beelzebub and there he seems mostly busied with temptating Jesus during his time in the wilderness and as evil spirit possessing people, etc.. Hence I'd like to know what parallels to Morgoth/Melko you note there.

In the Revelation Satan is equalled with the dragon/serpent of the Mesopotamian creation myth (aka Enuma Elish) and what is said there also reminds me of Zoroastrian lore, but I am not sure what parallels to Melkor you have in mind here.

Satan in the Old Testament seems - aside from what little is told in the Chronicles and Zechariah - mostly bargaining with the Lord about the temptations of Job. Again I ask what parallels you draw to Melkor.

Lucifer - the lightbearer who comes as Eärendel in Tolkiens legendarium - is mentioned but once in the Biblical Canon but nonetheless probably worth to be examined a little closer.


As for Poseiden and Ulmo, this came to me fairly easily. Poseiden was the Greek God of the ocean and seas, who also had a terrible temper. Ulmo is Tolkien's God of the sea and has a terrible temper.
Now, if anyone else has an answer, please don't be afraid to post it.
Do we have other parallels than that both are the gods of the sea?

[Noldor_returned]

As for Melkor's act of temptation, (I'm not quite sure) I think it says in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales that he tempted the elves. I'm not all that familiar with the Bible, but I do have a basic knowledge of the events in it.
As for more similarities between Ulmo and Poseiden, their tempers? They both get fairly angry and they both have semi-gods (in Ulmo's case he has Maiar such as Osse), but I think that's enough evidence. If you think of more, I'd be delighted to hear it.:)

[Noldor_returned]

I hear you, but I was hoping for a few facts that would back up your observation.

Well I am not looking for someone who is exactly the same, has done the same/similar things and the only difference is name.
I am only looking for a base similarity.

[Walter]

I see...

Here's anotherone:

Yavanna & Yggdrasil are basically similar...

[Noldor_returned]

I am only looking for similarities between Valar and Gods. You people are really starting to annoy me, especially you Walter. Yggdrasil is a tree! Not a God, but A TREE! From now on can everyone try to keep to things that talk and are Gods/Goddesses.

[Thorondor_]

I think Walter's post was in refference to the (draft) Letter #212:
Their [the valar's] forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and loves. They need not be anthropomorphic (Yavanna wife of Aule would, for instance, appear in the form of a great Tree.) But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men

[Walter]

Just wondering who people think is similar to each of the Valar for eg: Morgoth and the Devil, Ulmo and Poseiden.
If you make a suggestion, can you also put what race they're from.

I am only looking for similarities between Valar and Gods. You people are really starting to annoy me, especially you Walter. Yggdrasil is a tree! Not a God, but A TREE! From now on can everyone try to keep to things that talk and are Gods/Goddesses.

Sorry for annoying you...

A few things come to my mind:

In which aspect do you consider the Devil a God (the Capital G in your last post is a typo I presume)?

What do you mean then with "If you make a suggestion, can you also put what race they're from"? Do we have to take different races of Valar or of Gods into consideration?

I think considering Yggdrasil a mere tree is a misconception, considering Yavanna a goddess (in the Olympian sense) anotherone. Btw. did you try finding out what the name Yggdrasil could mean? Another puzzle, isn't it? (Why Odin, why horse, e.g. - or an entirely different meaning?)

I think Walter's post was in refference to the (draft) Letter #212:

Yes indeed! That and the so called "Koivienéni- Manuscript" of Marquette (MSS 3.9.13; a discussion of which can be found in VT #27...

[Lhunithiliel]

Now, if anyone else has an answer, please don't be afraid to post it.

You see, mate, ;) comparative mythology is not only an extremely exciting subject, but one that needs profound and widely comprehensive knowledge in this so very specific field!

I, personaly, am truly afraid to "post an answer" because I do not presume I have knowledge enough as to freely and justly compare gods and godesses and other mythological creations among the various mythologies of the world.

For me it is highly not sufficient to just say : "Ah! What d'you know! This Ulmo guy very much resembles Posseidon, doesn't he?!" It would be wasting of time, the least to say!

Besides, how many, and which exactly mythologies do you, as the starter of this thread, have in mind ?
How many and which mythologies of the world do you have comprehensive knowledge of, in order to compare them?
And ... do you think that Tolkien's is a 'mythology' at all?
Why do you call the Valar "gods"?
What is your understanding of "God" in mythological sense, in the first place?
How different do you find, if at all, "the powers of the world" and the "gods"?

I am trying to let you see that a topic as the one that you have suggested, is in itself highly interesting, but it also requires a very serious approach and attitude! If you can't provide that, I would like to at least read opinions of others, showing reliable understanding and knowledge on the subject, you know, so I suggest you either provide some meaningful and attention - worth information, or just let others do so!
No need to get annoyed or anything, indeed! :rolleyes:

[Noldor_returned]

Im sorry everyone, but I was annoyed at something else. I agree with everything that has been said. I haven't actually read the letter Wlater referenced to, and i have almost finished my list.
I also agree that this is a serious topic, and I will put a similarity up every day if possible, with at least three reasons for each.
From now on, I will accept any similarity, but can any similarities of the Valar and another God be put in Bold. Thankyou.
P.S. Once again, I'm sorry everyone.

[Noldor_returned]

I have just about finished my comparison/analysing so watch this space...

[Majimaune]

so watch this space...
which space the one above ok

[Walter]

We're waiting with bated breath... ;)

[Ermundo]

I was just dropping by this thread (Personally, I had nothing to do:D ).
I'm not an expert on Greek, Hellenistic, Norse, Roman, Finnish, or any other mythology but...


morgoth from the Silmarillion, could be compared to Iblis from the Quran (Islam's holy book)

Iblis is basically the devil. In the beginning, god summoned a councel to all the angels to them that he was going to make man. Iblis was a jinn but was lord of all the angels(I guess you could say a supreme archangel). Well, god indeed created man, a man named Adam and also God created a woman named Howa

God teaches Adam many things about the universe. So God one day decides to gather all the angels before Adam and asks the angels questions. The angels do not know the answers to these questions. But than God tells Adam to answer the questions, and Adam answers them all correct.

(OK Here's the important part)

Well, the angels bombed the test so God orders all the angels to bow before Adam. It so happens that Iblis doesn't bow.

"Why should I bow before a creature wrought of Clay. I am greater than him, I am fire."

Iblis thinks he's mister high and mighty and delibirately disobeys god. So god gets really mad and banishes Iblis from Heaven. Iblis makes a vow to always bring the good things to his dark and evil side. So god curses him to do what he will till Judgement day when he and his followers will be cast into the fires of hell (Basically all the evil people)

There are some similarities you can tie in between Iblis and Morgoth. I just brifly summarized the history of Iblis.


P.S I know ( Noldor returned) that you want comparisions between GODS and the Valar. But cut me some slack since this took a while to type and it took a long time to learn it all.

P.S.S

Don't be afraid to post, even if you're a total n00b to mythology.

[Withywindle]

OK, I shall tread carefully here as I see people have got strong feelings on this subject.

Rather than make one-to-one comparisons, we might consider the Theology of Middle Earth as against others. Middle Earth is to my mind unique in combining a One God creation with a Pantheon. Eru is a Father-Creator: creator of time and space, and father of Man (and Elves as well in this case), the progenitor of everything but fairly non-interventionist in the day-to-day of the World. So Eru is very similar to Christian-Semitic God.

However, we also have beings of supreme power - the Valar who, like the Greek gods, directly and constantly control all aspects of the life and fabric of Arda - they are "in all things". They are both supreme governors of the World - but, the Valar do everythig for the sake of Men and Elves (whom they love), and are in a sense less important than them in creation. The Greek gods are far above Men whom they abuse, torment, and generally sneer down on.

[Annaheru]

A comparison between Melkor (Morgoth) and Lucifer (Satan):

Lucifer was created as the greatest of all the angels, but he became proud and desired to be "like the Most High", i.e. replace God (Isaiah 14:12-14). In his rebellion, he drew a large number of angels with him, and fought against the hosts of heaven with these "demons" (1/3 according to Revelation 12: 3,4,7-9 (it should be noted that these verses are historical within the text, and refer to events that explain why other events are about to happen, but I digress)). As the the father of sin (first sin: pride) he lies to mankind, and causes them to fall (Genesis 3). He was given control of the earth as the Prince of the Power of the air, but is unable to hinder God's divine plan, and will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire (too many ref. to list here).

Melkor was created with the greatest gifts of power and knowledge among the Ainur. He lead a rebellion in the Music, and many other spirits joined him. He wanted the Flame Imperishable so he could become the creator, and he fought the Valar for control of the earth. For a long time he held control of much of the earth, but was not able to thwart Eru's ultimate purpose. He caused the Noldor to "fall", and estranged men from the Valar and Elves.

There, that's the short version. I'm hoping that I don't need to include refs for the part on M. (if I do, let me know and I'll add them).
The biblical stuff follows many commentaries' interpretation of these passages, and the 'why' lies in christian understanding of them- so please don't ask questions like "how do you know the prince of the air is the same being as lucifer" cause the answers would require us to go deep into how christians interpret the bible.


Of course not all of these points line up exactly, but they were all similar enough that I felt they could be included.

[Noldor_returned]

Hey...I'm haven't had my say yet. But I suppose I should have done it by now. Next week, or perhaps in 2 days time.

[Noldor_returned]

So much for 2 days or even a week. But doesn't matter, I am finally posting:o
First off, I found something that is quite strange. I recently started reading the Sil again, and decided to read the letter in the beginning for the first time ever. Well, I was amazed at what I found:
Originally written by the Master in a letter from J.R.R. Tolkien to Milton Waldman, 1951:

...I am not learned in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also- and here I hope I shall not sound absurd- I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its own tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing, its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)


This seems to me as though Tolkien is saying he based some parts of his writings on mythology and religion. That would seem as though all my thoughts (about this topic) are fairly correct so far, yet I want to see what you say about some of my choices. I will say now though, that some choices are barely linked, and may have been dreamed up by Tolkien himself. However, I found a God/religious being who has something/things in common with each of the Valar. I have run out of time once again, but I will post again in the near future.

[valaroma]

Speaking of religion within the context of worship in middle earth, I noticed a lack in temples and cults. Are there temples dedicated to Illuvatar or the other Valars other than Melkor? I know Sauron exhorted the Numenoreans to worship Melkor, but was he successful?

Within LOTR, I couldn't find a single prayer uttered before a battle. The Elves revered Elbereth and calls for her light every now and then, but I couldn't find a prayer dedicated to her. A prayer should essentially ask for two(2) things; forgiveness and deliverance.

If they were mentioned somewhere, I missed it.

[Noldor_returned]

Suaron managed to convince the Numenoreans that Melkor was the greatest and Illuvatar was weak. I think they made a temple where they sacrificed "faithful" Numenoreans to Morgoth, and that was just about the whole reason why Numenor ended, as far as I know.

[YayGollum]

Hm. Well, I always figured that there weren't a lot of temples and things to the Valar types since the elf types actually knew where to look to kiss their feet. Why waste materials on a place to worship some creepily overpowered things that are supposedly always paying attention to you? Why produce little symbols or likenesses when the real things actually exist just across an ocean? Well, I guess that they might enjoy looking at them. oh well. There was a temple to the Eru dude, which makes a lot more sense to me, on that Numenor place. I don't remember the elf types especially caring about Eru, though. just humans. Also, there was an allusion to the two blue wizards heading over to the far east and having anything at all to do with some cult. Also, also, that Sauron dude started some religion to Mel, which this Noldor_returned person mentioned, but I remember reading something about how he also started something in the far east, but to himself.

[valaroma]

Err..YG? Can I call you that instead of YayGollum?

You are brilliant. Really. I never thought about it, but if our own God is merely across some ocean and we can actually go talk to him, then yes, we don't need temples or prayers. We just go see him or shout very loudly if we want something.

You should write a book, man.

[YayGollum]

I thank you muchly, valaroma person. Yay for people with exquisite taste! :rolleyes: But then, I would guess that you were being sarcastic. oh well. I am brilliant, I should write several books, and if whatever deities you happen to be a fan of actually exist on your plain of existence, you know where they live, and they are such large fans of you that they'd even catch a whisper, yes, what use do you have for temples? I would guess that anything you'd have to say to what you consider to be a deity would be called a prayer, though. Hm. I was thinking of the Noldor types who left paradise, though, and actually knew the addresses of the Valar types and could have regularly had tea with them, if they felt like it. It would make way more sense for the Dark elf types to make creepy temples and regular and only half-faithful prayers, since they were pretty creeped out and overawed by paradise.

[valaroma]

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. What you saw wasn't obvious. I can't imagine how many temples there are in this world, but I imagine they were all built under the pretext some god can hear you and can actually reach out to help you. Perhaps some were even built in the hope that god may come down and live here. Ironic, because the very fact that a temple was erected for a particular god also implies that that god is no longer around.

[Noldor_returned]

But Yay, the Dark Elves were never really interested in the Valar enough to build temples. There wasn't much written really about the doings of the Dark ones, so from what I can remember, they didn't seem like the type who would start a cult type thing. The only ones who were "dedicated" enough to show their appreciation materialistically were the Numenoreans, but they made a big mistake. I think there were other instances where people did things physically to show their thanks, but not many temples.

[Ithrynluin]

But Yay, the Dark Elves were never really interested in the Valar enough to build temples.

Not only the dark elves, the Eldar built no shrines or temples either as far as we know. I suppose the Valar were to the elves teachers and mentors rather than gods to be worshipped, whereas mortal men had no contact with the Valar whatsoever.

[Varokhâr]

Lately, I've noticed a similarity of sorts between Eru and the Slavic creator-god Svarog, each of whom makes the world, fathers the Gods, then steps back and observes quietly.

There really wasn't anything known about ancient Slavic mythology when Tolkien was putting his works together, and of course it isn't an airtight similarity, but there are few of those.

[YayGollum]

Makes all kinds of sense to me, Varokhar person. So many forget about that unobtrusive Eru dude. Probably because he so forgettable and unobtrusive. But then, I would think that there would be plenty of temples and things to him, since the elf types were only told that he existed and that he was the big dude in charge of everything. oh well. As to the Dark elf thing, sure, they were pretty creeped out by that Orome dude. I wonder why they never came up with a religion of their own, or at least some different views. But then, they would have heard about the Valar types eventually, after the Noldor types came back, yes?