Valar and Fate

[Curufinwe]

Can the Valar change peoples fate? I was reading UT and it has all this reference to Tuor's fate and Ulmo changing it and how Osse obeys Mandos more than Ulmo. So can the Valar change peoples Fate?

[ReadWryt]

I've come to suspect that the Valar had a hand in at least one individual falling into a volcano some time in The Third Age.:)

[Curufinwe]

But then would Mandos know there true Fate or the one that was originally in plan?

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
I've come to suspect that the Valar had a hand in at least one individual falling into a volcano some time in The Third Age.:)

Or similarly, another individual finding a ring?
Do you have a quote or 'proof' for that, or is it just a feeling? I'm certainly no expert having only read the Sil once and a long time ago at that. But the reason why I have trouble believing that is that if the Valar are allowed to 'help' in this way, then where is the limit? You're sort of on a slippery slope here, and might end up with the Valar picking up the Ring and throwing it in the fire themselves? Maybe there are rules what they can and can not do? Did those rules change over time? Oh well, I guess I'm just showing my ignorance here. Hope someone can clear things up.

[Elanor2]

Well, when discusing he fate of Earendil, Mandos and Ulmo get into a fight because Mandos says that a mortal man (father was Tuor) should not be allowed to see Aman and go on living and Ulmo says that he is also the son of Idril (elf) so he should. Manwe tranches the discussion by saying that in Earendil case (and also Elwing, Elrond and Elros) "the power of doom is given to me".

It seems that the Valar can change fate in special cases, but only with Eru's permission. And we do not know the whole of Eru's mind, so perhaps He had already foreseen that there will be cases where destiny should be changed, and how and why.

Is it really a change, if Eru knew upfront that it should be changed? I cannot say. Depends on how much you believe that Eru fixes destinies and that all is predetermined and how much is left to personal decisions. I believe that Eru sees many paths, some better than other, and lets you choose up to a certain limit.

If Manwe had not decided to ask Eru if it was possible to change Earendil and his family's destiny, (and Luthien, Tuor, and all the other exceptions) the world would have been different, perhaps worse or perhaps better. We have to trust Eru, I think.

my2cents. Elanor2

[Lorien]

but if the valar can influence in such ways(people falling into volcanoes..) then why not go all the way?? and the thing that confused me in UT was when it was stated in the Sil that osse was working for ulmo then why should he obey mandos more....??? personally i feel if the valar were allowd to cause people falling and finding things they might as well have come out themselves and taken on sauron....why the indirectness.....

[Curufinwe]

We'll then does that mean that Mandos was in a higher position than Mandos for Osse was obeying Mandos not his own real Valar.

[ReadWryt]

Bill,

I have no quotes from the books or from the professor. I just figured that it was a good explaination for why Gollum didn't just slip the ring on and run off.

As for the Rules, I'm not certain. I would think that it would have to be a very dire situation, otherwise why created the Istari to watch over things in the mean time.

Lastly, you can't measure that speed, Darkons are not detectable like Photons.

[Merry]

Hmm

Not sure about all this talk of fate and the Valar influencing the future of others. Surely Eru created all things with the freedom of will to make their own decisions and make their own choices whether it be for good or evil. I find it difficult to believe that Gollum was influence to fall into the fire and destroy the ring. If Bilbo and Frodo had the pity not to murder Gollum, surely the Valar would not have condemned him to death!!

I think that they may have influenced people through their actions, i.e.. sending the Istari to fight/ counsel and teach others, but pure mind control or fate weaving does not wash with me!

I have no quotes to defend my thoughts and am open to correction.

[Flame of Utumno]

Mandos is meant to know all fates within the Great Music. The lives of the Valar, Maia and Elves are all controlled by the results of the Music of the Ainur. However, an aspect of the 'Gift of Men' is such that they have unlimited free will as well as the ability to transcend the fate of the great music, and after death go to a place that is unkown even to Mandos and only to Iluvatar.

[lilhobo]

dont you get the feeling gandalf knew the fate of gollum, its as if because of their ability to see the future, they know that certain events will come into pass if certain other conditions and events are met

hence, gandalf is forever rushing around, guiding "fate"