Norse Myth and LotR similarities

[e.Blackstar]

I really don't know where this should go, so please move it, someone, if it's in the wrong forum.

I was reading some information on Nordic tribes and culture, and I came across a few interesting pieces that have been put into tales by both Tolkien and Lewis. For instance, there is a wolf named Fenris, who was slain by Tyr, god of War. Fenris, is of course, also the name of Fenris Ulf, the wolf chieftain of the White Witch in Narnia. Also, the goddess Freya is said to have spent a night with the dwarves, and was paid with the ‘sacred necklace Brisingamen’. Sound familier?

There were a few other bits that I found that I can't remember off the top of my head, but I was just wondering if anyone had found any other mythological pieces in Tolkien's works. Of course, we know that he based bits and pieces on the myths of several cultures, but until this point, I'd never noticed anything so blantant.

Anyone else have mention?

[Ar-Feiniel]

My husband was reading a book on mythology and he told me that there was a god of forges and metalworking named Gimli. Sorry, but I don't remember if he was a Norse deity and I don't have the book handy to check it.

[Wolfshead]

Gimli is the Norse name for the heaven that the righteous survivors of Ragnarok would go.

It's also a place in Canada, apparently, which was founded by Icelandic settlers.

[Helcaraxë]

Many of Tolkien's names as well as some plot devices were influenced by Norse myth. Most of the dwarves' names, Frodo, etc. Some stories in the Silamillion bear remarkable similarity to some Norse myths, particularly that of Turin. I don't recall exactly what the Norse myth was called, but it was a similar story.

[Corvis]

A lot of Tolkien's world has always seemed to me very similar to many different mythologies. Didn't tolkien study or teach mythology a lot? I have always thought that the Valar and how they had watched the happenings of elves and men in the early days of middle earth are much like the Greek Gods and how they watched men in Greeek mythology.

[Arvedui]

For those with a particular interest, a number of Norse writings can be found at http://www.northvegr.org/main.php
Both the Kalevala and the Eddas can be found there, for instance.

Happy hunting:)

[Walter]

The Norse myth with a story similar to that of Turin of the Silamillion could be the Finnish Kavelala. And the hero there is called Kurvello...

... or so ...

[Haldatyaro]

For those with a particular interest, a number of Norse writings can be found at http://www.northvegr.org/main.php
Both the Kalevala and the Eddas can be found there, for instance.

Happy hunting:)
Sweet Odin's eyeball, what a fantastic site! I have most of them in hard copy, but this will make it really easy to look up specific passages. Thanks!

[Walter]

Sweet Odin's eyeball, what a fantastic site! I have most of them in hard copy, but this will make it really easy to look up specific passages. Thanks!
...and you don't even have to trade an eye for it... ;)

[elrilgalia]

Tolkien was a great lover of Norse mythology, and tales... Take Brunhilde and Siegfried etc..

The Norse myth about the creation of the world, mentions that the first man, Ask and the first woman Embla, formed from two logs, first came to live in a world called Midgard.

There is also a World Tree. Yggdrasil that towers over the world. One root in the realm of the dead, Nilfheim, and the other in the realm of the Gods, Asgard. It was here that Odin, the High God, learned the secret of the magic runes.

(I think the tree, is much like in symbology the White tree of Gondor)

and like Gandalf, (almost) Odin rose from the dead, and holds mankind in his care. and welcomes them into the halls of Valhalla. (perhaps the word Tolkien adjusted for the Vala)

[Noldor_returned]

I have started a thread similar to this...called similarities of the Valar. Basically, it talks about what Valar is most similar to what God. Yet I will write more on this topic when I have the time. Perhaps an essay...

[Alcuin]

In Norse mythology, the gods decide to bind the ravening wolf, Fenrir, who has escaped constraints before. Fenrir suspects that the gods have some trick that will really keep him bound, and he refuses to accede unless one of the gods will place his hand in Fenrir’s mouth. Only Tyr has the courage to do this, and when Fenrir discovers that he cannot break loose, he bites off Tyr’s hand. That story is faintly reminiscent to me of Tolkien’s tale of Beren and Carcharoth, though it is far from a perfect match.

Tolkien’s Quenya word Ainur recalls the Æsir of the Norse, the Asura of the Hindu, and the Ahura of the Persians. I don’t know if there is a correspondence there, but The War of the Jewels essay “Quendi and Eldar”, page 399, says that the word Ainur is from the language of the Valar and their word ayanūz, which is very like the Proto-Indo-European root *əensu-. This root gives rise to the Germanic *ansu- and the Sanskrit ásuh by way of Proto-Indo-Iranian *n̩suras meaning “vital spirit” or “life.”

[Varokhâr]

Aragorn also has some Thor-like traits in that he is the ultimate protector of Middle-earth. Also, like the Thunder-god's hammer Mjolnir, Aragorn also wields a Dwarven-forged weapon of great might and destiny (Anduril), necessary for his role and the fulfillment of such.

Aragorn's sword also calls to mind Arthur's Excalibur.

[Noldor_returned]

Yeah, it was definitely handed to him by a lady in a lake;) (jk)

I can see where you're coming from, although that might be a thin connection with Excalibur. Well, I guess there was the whole protection thing with the scabbard. But that's about it.

That connection with Aragorn and Thor is a bit stretched as well. What, Aragorn as the ultimate protector of Middle-Earth? Please, what was Gandalf sent there for? To protect the free peoples of ME. And you're semi-wrong about Anduril. Narsil, its predecessor was made by the dwarves, but Anduril was not forged by them...the re-forging of Narsil into Anduril was at Rivendell, which was an Elvish haven...make sure you get the specifics right...I'll eat you alive over them.

[Alcuin]

Yeah, it was definitely handed to him by a lady in a lake;) (jk)Listen, strange women lyin’ around in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you. If I went ’round sayin’ I was Emperor just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away!– Dennis the Peasant

[Noldor_returned]

– Dennis the Peasant
Indeed. He would have much to say if you introduced Aragorn to him as the saviour of the world because he has a few similarities to Thor

[Majimaune]

I personally don't think there are that many similarities between Thor and Aragorn. I have read a few Norse stories to knoew something of what I'm soeeking about.

Quite a few of the Valar are very similar to the Greek/Roman gods. This is discused in a thread that NR meantioned earlier.

[Varokhâr]

I only said there were some similarities - re-read my post.

And I'm not wrong about Anduril. I know it was re-forged by the elves in Rivendell. So sue me if I didn't please you with my post.

What a bunch of crybabies, all offended over a little connection I drew :rolleyes:

[Walter]

In Norse mythology, the gods decide to bind the ravening wolf, Fenrir, who has escaped constraints before. Fenrir suspects that the gods have some trick that will really keep him bound, and he refuses to accede unless one of the gods will place his hand in Fenrir’s mouth. Only Tyr has the courage to do this, and when Fenrir discovers that he cannot break loose, he bites off Tyr’s hand. That story is faintly reminiscent to me of Tolkien’s tale of Beren and Carcharoth, though it is far from a perfect match.
The resemblance is close enough for even Tom Shippey to mention it....

[Alcuin]

The resemblance is close enough for even Tom Shippey to mention it....I have not read Shippey. Reader’s Companion quotes him as if he were St. Thomas Aquinas. Should I read him, which books, and which one first?

[Noldor_returned]

I only said there were some similarities - re-read my post.

And I'm not wrong about Anduril. I know it was re-forged by the elves in Rivendell. So sue me if I didn't please you with my post.

What a bunch of crybabies, all offended over a little connection I drew :rolleyes:

I wasn't offended, it's just the connection was small and minute that I think you're wrong. Aragorn, the ultimate protector of Middle-Earth? Please, he may have done a bit, but ultimate implies the only one. Gandalf's role in ME was to protect it.

[Varokhâr]

I wasn't offended, it's just the connection was small and minute that I think you're wrong. Aragorn, the ultimate protector of Middle-Earth? Please, he may have done a bit, but ultimate implies the only one. Gandalf's role in ME was to protect it.

Gandalf did his fair share, yes, but Aragorn was chief of the northern Dunedain. Gandalf did not spend the vast majority of his life in combat, as it seems Aragorn certainly did. And Gandalf had a role as a behind-the-scenes influencer of others; his role was far more Odinic than Thorish. Aragorn bears more of a semblance to Thor than Gandalf.

[Walter]

I have not read Shippey. Reader’s Companion quotes him as if he were St. Thomas Aquinas. Should I read him, which books, and which one first?
Aquinas and Shippey have quite different approaches and intentions...

The Road to Middle-Earth was the first book about Tolkien I have read and back then it has helped me greatly to gain some understanding about where Tolkien was coming from and what his "sources" and "inspirations" were.

J.R.R. Tolkien - Author of the Century I read much later when I was already familiar with some of Tolkien's sources. Though Shippey's second book about Tolkien covers roughly the same topic as his first, they are rather different to read. While I found the former a great overview of many of Tolkien's sources which furthermore mentions many "parallels" to these, the latter is more refined and takes a more analytical approach to Tolkien's legendarium.

Given how familiar you are with anything Tolkien, the first might contain little you do not already know, whereas the second might be an interesting reading for you nonetheless...

[Alcuin]

Given how familiar you are with anything Tolkien, the first might contain little you do not already know, whereas the second might be an interesting reading for you nonetheless...Thank you for both the information and the compliment. Does Shippey cover sources along the topic of this thread, “Norse Myth and LotR similarities,” in his first book?

[Majimaune]

Aragorn was the protector of only the north. He didnt go down south and protect it as well until he became king and then he laid of the north a bit. He wasnt the designated protector as Gandalf was.

[Noldor_returned]

Gandalf did his fair share, yes, but Aragorn was chief of the northern Dunedain. Gandalf did not spend the vast majority of his life in combat, as it seems Aragorn certainly did. And Gandalf had a role as a behind-the-scenes influencer of others; his role was far more Odinic than Thorish. Aragorn bears more of a semblance to Thor than Gandalf.

The Dunedain: a small and dwindling race in the North. Aragorn was the chief, and this makes him most like Thor and ultimate protector of Middle-Earth?

Gandalf in battle: Thor didn't spend all his time in battle either. Gandalf had a much more pivotal role. He discovered the secret of the ring, organised the capture of the ring, saved Faramir from the Nazgul, helped with the healing of Frodo, defeated Saruman at Isengard, defeated the Balrog and much more. Sure, he was wise, but he spent a lot of time in battle too. Aragorn may have fought every now and then protecting the Shire. But Gandalf: he faced the Nazgul on Weathertop a few days before Aragorn, fought the orcs in Moria, fought off the wolves on Caradhras, defeated the Balrog, plus fought in every other battle Aragorn did except for Amon Hen. The there was all his battles in the Hobbit. Is it possible he fought more major battles, but a little less?

Do you see what I mean? Thor, although he may have been a protector of the Norse, he had a mighty anger, and Aragorn didn't. There are other differences too.

[Varokhâr]

I see what you mean, but it still doesn't invalidate my observation. Again, re-read what I wrote; I never said Thor and Aragorn were identical, just shared the role of mighty protector and wielded a legendary and powerful weapon of Dwarven-make. Aragorn fought more battles but certainly less notable adversaries - yet still, he fought them.

Nor did I say that Gandalf didn't have the more important role, as you seem to imply. Gandalf fought less battles but definitely won those decisive encounters. And, as I said, Gandalf's own role as protector was quite different than Aragorn's. As Aragorn said at the Council of Elrond (in response to Boromir's boasting), that it was not Gondor alone who kept Middle-Earth safe, and though the Dunedain of the North were dwindling in number, their own role in protecting the land was significant.

[Majimaune]

As Aragorn said at the Council of Elrond (in response to Boromir's boasting), that it was not Gondor alone who kept Middle-Earth safe, and though the Dunedain of the North were dwindling in number, their own role in protecting the land was significant. The Dunedain actually did a better job then Gondor. There were less of them and more land to protect. I cannot liken them to anyone/group in myths and I know quite a few.

[Varokhâr]

The Dunedain actually did a better job then Gondor. There were less of them and more land to protect. I cannot liken them to anyone/group in myths and I know quite a few.

Very true; and while certainly there are no direct comparisons in Tolkien's works to any single individual or group in any body of ancient lore, it is why I drew the Thorish comparison to begin with. Few Dunedain (led by Aragorn) successfully defending against foes from Mordor does have a parallel with the lone Thor successfully defending against Aetin-folk, though of course not a perfect one.

It's not that big a stretch to see a few honest similarities in Norse lore, with which I am also familiar (being a believing Heathen and so forth).

[Noldor_returned]

I agree that there are a few similarities, but Aragorn and Thor I disagree. Thor wasn't the only main guy who fought the Aesir, there were a few others such as Njord and Magni. Thor is merely the most known and thus portrayed as mightier.

The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence. Thor was neither king, and received the hammer as a gift. Anduril/Narsil was an heirloom of sorts, and would only be carried by the king. Besides, when Aragorn had it, it was Anduril which was put back together by elves from the original pieces of the dwarves work.

[Varokhâr]

I agree that there are a few similarities, but Aragorn and Thor I disagree. Thor wasn't the only main guy who fought the Aesir, there were a few others such as Njord and Magni. Thor is merely the most known and thus portrayed as mightier.

Thor is protrayed as mightier than Njord or his son Magni as part of his nature, not simply because he receives the most press. But that's off-topic. Aragorn wasn't the only one who fought the foes of Middle-earth either - another small similarity.

The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence.

True but irrelevant; the only similarity I pointed out was that both weapons were of Dwarven-make.

Thor was neither king, and received the hammer as a gift. Anduril/Narsil was an heirloom of sorts, and would only be carried by the king. Besides, when Aragorn had it, it was Anduril which was put back together by elves from the original pieces of the dwarves work.

Thor was no king, true, but that wasn't something I mentioned. The sword borne by Aragorn had a different nature than Mjolnir, but that's also not important. The only thing that is similar is what I originally mentioned - their Dwarven origin.

[Majimaune]

The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence. Are you sure about that (even though I think it is a coincidence as well). Narsil would have been a gift most likely as well so even if it was a coincidence it is still a similarity.

[Walter]

Does Shippey cover sources along the topic of this thread, “Norse Myth and LotR similarities,” in his first book?
Very much so, but he covers OE and Finnish and other sources as well, along the way. The "origins" of Tolkien's Elves and Dwarves as found in the Germanic & Norse myths (at least in what little has survived Christianisation in certain regions like Iceland) or the similarities of the Aesir with the Ainur (in Tolkiens oldest parts of the legendarium) or the "origin" of Frodo (as in Fróthi) are some things I seem to recall...

Moreover he elaborates on how Tolkien's philological work seems to have sparked his fantasy when for example words of unknown or doubtful origin - once freed of the constraints of scholarship - became creatures in Tolkiens legendarium (ie the Sigelhearwan).

Tolkien himself reveals a lot about that in his essays (e.g. Monsters & Critics, Fairy-Tales or Secret Vice) but by the time I read Shippeys books I had not yet read the essays.

[Majimaune]

(at least in what little has survived Christianisation in certain regions like Iceland) It wasnt me I promise.

To other matters... Who is Lokee?(not sure who to spell it) I cant remember who he is. Is he the messenger of the gods or is he the evil god person?

[Varokhâr]

Loki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) isn't an evil god so much as he is a royal pain in the ass much of the time. He does some evil - and even does some good. It's because of him that Odin's steed Sleipnir was born and Thor's Hammer (among other items) were forged to begin with.

[Majimaune]

Right thanks for that, now I remember.

[scotsboyuk]

Loki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) isn't an evil god so much as he is a royal pain in the ass much of the time. He does some evil - and even does some good. It's because of him that Odin's steed Sleipnir was born and Thor's Hammer (among other items) were forged to begin with.

Yes I would agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Loki more a force of balance between good and evil?

[Majimaune]

Very possibly. Its been awhile sinse I heard any Norse myths.

[Noldor_returned]

From what I know of him, he was more just the kinda guy who isn't really evil, but he plays bad tricks and does a few bad things. Kinda like the guy who thinks it's fun to plant banana peels in the hope someone slips over.

[Majimaune]

So the guy who laughs at other peoples miusfortune.

[Walter]

He was not only mischievous and a trickster (and here we find some parallels to the early Gandalf), but also responsible for Balder's death. Together with the fact that he is the father of Fenrir, Hel and Jormundgand he can be considered a main cause for the Ragnarok, the doom of the Aesir and the end of the world...

[Majimaune]

Right. I had never/cannot remember if I heard all that you just said then Walter.

Merry Christmas.

[scotsboyuk]

Just how much of Norse mythology comes to us from Christian scholars? As far as I remember back to university it was a sizeable chunk, if not all of it e.g. Sæmundar Edda and Snorri's Edda.

It's such a shame that we don't have more sources from the period itself, rather than sources from later centuries. I was a student of Anglo-Saxon history at university, and the lack of sources in some areas was always such a blow to understanding those people. Having said that, it does add mystery. :p

[Varokhâr]

That is the problem; considering the authors' background (which was one that was hostile to Pagan myths), the possibility of Heathen legends having been altered is very real.

[scotsboyuk]

That is the problem; considering the authors' background (which was one that was hostile to Pagan myths), the possibility of Heathen legends having been altered is very real.

Indeed, one does wonder at certaina spects of Norse mythology. Odin hanging on the tree, for example, and being pierced by the spear does sound similar to Christ on the Cross.

[Noldor_returned]

Now that is a good point...But there's Christian similarities in almost everything if you look at it.

[scotsboyuk]

Yes I would agree. The old adage of history being written by the victors would seem to apply.

[Majimaune]

Yeah nothing is written by the losers of battles, always by the victors.

[scotsboyuk]

I wasn't so much thinking of the 'victors of battles' as I was the spread and growth of Christianity at the expense of the pagan beliefs that had previously existed. The centres of scholarship and book manufacturer in the medieval period were Christian monasteries and religious centres. Thus one can expect a Christian bias to accounts of pre-Christian beliefs.

[Turgon]

I think christian tampering with pagan legend is a given really. Though quite what this entailed I'm unsure of. I wonder how much Beowulf changed over the years, being an oral poem, from it's pagan roots to the christianised version we have now? Also how much of this was due to the churchmen recording these tales, and how much was due to oral tradition? As the people listening to the stories became christians did the stories change to suit their taste? Or was this change forced upon them by the church? Given the nature of oral tradition I think either way is possible.

Classical mythology from instance has no christian influence, but then all of these tales came from a literate society, although they too had their roots in oral tradition, but been comitted to script long before the church took hold, they were kept 'pure' so to speak. Given how classical literature has been handed down to us, through the medieval churchmen and such, they could have tampered with them had they wished. Of course, it's a different thing in this case, the classical world being something of an ideal to some churchmen. All those Aristoleans in the universities and such.

I guess my point is, if your average viking could carry a slab full of runes in his backpocket, the world would be a better place. Of course that might put pay to all his roving and pillaging, so it would a different place too. I'm guessing it would be quite tricky to throw a woman over your shoulder for a start.

Um... that's about it really.

[Varokhâr]

Indeed; Xian tampering with original texts presents an eternal problem for scholars. I remember the walls I ran into with my initial studies with the Beowulf poem. Gladly, though, most scholars can work around it, but I wonder how much was lost :(

[Walter]

Classical mythology from instance has no christian influence, but then all of these tales came from a literate society, although they too had their roots in oral tradition, but been comitted to script long before the church took hold, they were kept 'pure' so to speak.
If we consider that e.g. the Trojan war took place several centuries before some people (usually referred to as "Homer") wrote the tale down, we cannot - IMHO - rightfully presume that these were tales from a literate society. Of course, IIRC, the period of the Trojan war roughly correlates to the period of Linear B, but the society back then certainly was not literate either. Nor would Linear B have been a suiting tool to write Homerian poems.

Aside from that the "Classical" (="Olympian") mythology was the last stage of a transition of myths which - at least in part - stemmed from periods much (millennia) earlier, the earliest parts (from the then existing matriarchal and matrilinear society) probably being tradited from the late neolithicum.

As to get to my point, IMO "Classical" mythology has undergone quite a radical transition before it was "frozen" by being put to paper, probably even more so than "Germanic" or "Northern" mythology...

[Turgon]

I am aware of the oral traditions of the Olympian myths, and of their origins, my point was in regard of christian scholarship, and that is what I mean when I say they were frozen already. But yes, my bad. Greek myth is protean, all myth is protean. Even written myth. With a literate society like the Greeks and Romans for instance, there is also the influence of the most meddlesome of mythmaker, the writer, so even during the golden age of Athens, the myths are undergoing transition as for instance the tragic poets, alter myth to make their own point in there own stories, this goes on even today, we retell myth to mirror our own values or ideas.

Perhaps my post was all nonsense, I do tend to get carried away on various whims. I think my original post was meant to be a question. Were myths changed to make them more acceptable to Christian ideas, that is to say to suit the Church? Or did the change come about to suit a public whose own ideas had been changed by Christianity?

Anyhoo, I think that was my point. Reposting so I don't look quite so ignorant in the face of Walter's scholarship...:confused:

Hehe! Nice to see you around Walter!

[Walter]

Hehe! Nice to see you around Walter!
Likewise! :)

Regarding your question whether or not those Christians who wrote down these pagan myths also tinkered with them: Yes they probably did, some more others less, some more subtle others less. After all they had an agenda...

From Snorri's Edda:

1. In the beginning Almighty God created heaven and earth, and all
things that belong to them, and last he made two human beings, from whom
the races are descended (Adam and Eve), and their children multiplied
and spread over all the world. But in the course of time men became
unequal; some were good and right-believing, but many more turned them
after the lusts of the world and heeded not God's laws; and for this
reason God drowned the world in the flood, and all that was quick in the
world, except those who were in the ark with Noah. After the flood of
Noah there lived eight men, who inhabited the world, and from them the
races are descended; and now, as before, they increased and filled the
world, and there were very many men who loved to covet wealth and power,
but turned away from obedience to God, and so much did they do this that
they would not name God. And who could then tell their sons of the
wonderful works of God? So it came to pass that they lost God's name;
and in the wide world the man was not to be found who could tell of his
Maker. But, nevertheless, God gave them earthly-gifts, wealth and
happiness, that should be with them in the world; he also shared wisdom
among them, so that they understood all earthly things, and all kinds
that might be seen in the air and on the earth. This they thought upon,
and wondered at, how it could come to pass that the earth and the beasts
and the birds had the same nature in some things but still were unlike
in manners.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-8.txt, my Italics

In this example the author tried to put the pagan myths into context with the christian "truth" (as it was seen) by creating a frame within which the myths could exist without interferring with or violating the christian beliefs through creating an excuse: "the people at the time just didn't - or even: couldn't - know it any better. Thus writer and reader could be content and just read on...

[Starflower]

a note on the original subject of the thread... the story of Turin is a near-identical replica of the story of Kullervo in the Finnish epic Kalevala. Down to him marrying his sister and killing himself with a sword when he find this out...