Narnia's Anarchy

[Hammersmith]

Suggested by the esteemed Maeglin, seconded by a Mr Blackstar (in this thread) (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=18257), here is the question of the hour:

What happens to Narnia when the Pevensie royalty return through the wardrobe? Is there a period of anarchy? Are there loyalists? How long before new monarchs are declared? What do the Narnians think happened?

Lewis wasn't as obsessive as Tolkien in his appendixkeeping, so much of this will probably remain speculation. But hey, what's the use in a forum if you don't use it for speculation?

Let the hypotheses begin!

[e.Blackstar]

Mr. Blackstar speaks:

I think that since the Sons of Adam and the Daughters of Eve were seen as divine gifts from Aslan, after everyone got over the initial confusion of them disappearing, it was accepted as an act of 'god'.
Here's what happened: Other than the fauns, who were slaughtered en masse by the centaurs in a kind of ethnic cleansing, the people of Narnia developed an autonomous collective and lived happily ever after without a king until about 50 years later when the Telmarines invaded.

:D :cool: :p :rolleyes: :o :D

[Wolfshead]

Suggested by the esteemed Maeglin, seconded by a Mr Blackstar (in this thread) (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=18257), here is the question of the hour:
Mr Blackstar? :eek:

Here's what happened: Other than the fauns, who were slaughtered en masse by the centaurs in a kind of ethnic cleansing, the people of Narnia developed an autonomous collective and lived happily ever after without a king until about 50 years later when the Telmarines invaded.

Scene 3 (http://www.rit.edu/~smo4215/monty.htm#Scene%203)

ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the
week.

Et cetera :D

[e.Blackstar]

Exactly. :D


Mr, Herr, Monsieur, whatever. :rolleyes: They think they know best.

[Narsil]

Here's what happened: Other than the fauns, who were slaughtered en masse by the centaurs in a kind of ethnic cleansing, the people of Narnia developed an autonomous collective and lived happily ever after without a king until about 50 years later when the Telmarines invaded.

:D :cool: :p :rolleyes: :o :D

My understanding is that it was the Telmarines who slaughtered the fauns, dwarves, silenced the trees and talking animals, etc. I'm not quite sure how long it was between the disappearance of the Pevensies and the invasion of the Telmarines but I thought it was at least 100 years. Then the Telmarines invaded and drove all the "Old Narnians" underground or slaughtered them and their occupation lasted several generations until Caspian met up with the Pevensies.

[e.Blackstar]

Ja, it was the Telmarines. Joke, it was. :p

[Narsil]

Ah! Got it. All the smiley faces should've clued me in. ;) :D

[Hammersmith]

In a doomed attempt to inject some gravity into this situation, I'll try and postulate my postulations.

The Telmarines did arrive, and if Aslan can be believed they arrived from our world after being shipwrecked on an island. Remember, Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve only turn up in Narnia after King Frank and Queen Helen entered at the dawning of the world.

It's my understanding that this race of royalty and humanity continued in Archenland while the Telmarines established a peaceful government in Narnia with the support of the Narnians. Remember, Caspian IX was a good king who was maybe even murdered by Miraz the Lord Protector. Many of the good Telmarines - think Caspian himself, the lords who were his father's friends that he sought out (Bern, Octavian, Maveramorn, Rhoope, etc), the Telmarines who opt to stay in Narnia.

If I remember it's about a thousand years (Narnia time) before they return. Cair Paravel is ruined, earthquakes and erosion have changed the course of rivers and as Peter (?) remarks, it's for the Narnians as though King Arthur had returned to Britain.

Basically, we could probably assume that no government immediately steps in to take over the dynasty after the Pevensies. We have precedent in Trumpkin's stewardship to assume that Narnia was familiar with managing without a king, and we know from Lord Peridan that Narnia had a royal class, replete with candidates to take the reigns without being king. Why am I certain they did not crown a new king? Because when the Telmarines came, they started a new royal line without trouble and with the support of Narnia until evil Miraz appeared. Suggests that they didn't depose an established royal line.

Sound reasonable? Pick holes in my theory.

[e.Blackstar]

Pick holes in my theory.
I would, but I can't manage to find any, really. ;)

[Hammersmith]

I would, but I can't manage to find any, really. ;)
Oh, Blackie. Don't make me argue against myself now...:o

[Narsil]

It's my understanding that this race of royalty and humanity continued in Archenland while the Telmarines established a peaceful government in Narnia with the support of the Narnians. Remember, Caspian IX was a good king who was maybe even murdered by Miraz the Lord Protector. Many of the good Telmarines - think Caspian himself, the lords who were his father's friends that he sought out (Bern, Octavian, Maveramorn, Rhoope, etc), the Telmarines who opt to stay in Narnia.

...If I remember it's about a thousand years (Narnia time) before they return. Cair Paravel is ruined, earthquakes and erosion have changed the course of rivers and as Peter (?) remarks, it's for the Narnians as though King Arthur had returned to Britain.

... Why am I certain they did not crown a new king? Because when the Telmarines came, they started a new royal line without trouble and with the support of Narnia until evil Miraz appeared. Suggests that they didn't depose an established royal line.

Sound reasonable? Pick holes in my theory.

A few tiny holes...

While Caspian IX might've been a good king his predecessors came from to Narnia because there was a famine in Telmar. The first Caspian was called "Caspian the Conquerer" and he and his descendents "silenced the beasts and the trees and the fountains, and who killed and drove away the Dwarfs and fauns, and are now trying to cover up even the memory of them.".

The takeover of Narnia by the Telmarines wasn't wanted nor peaceful. It seems that the Telmarines weren't deposed because the Narnians weren't able to do so, not because they weren't inclined to do so. Plus it was hinted that there was "some disorder in Narnia" at the time of the arrival of the Telmarines so perhaps there was a state of anarchy at some point.

I will agree that it seemed that many generations and even hundreds of years went by from the time of the four Pevensies to the time of Prince Caspian, as evidenced by the ruins at Cair Paravel and all the changes in the landscape, etc.

Unfortunately C.S. Lewis wasn't nearly as detailed a writer with his Chronicles as Tolkien was with the story of Middle Earth so a lot of things are left to the imagination.

[Hammersmith]

While Caspian IX might've been a good king his predecessors came from to Narnia because there was a famine in Telmar. The first Caspian was called "Caspian the Conquerer" and he and his descendents "silenced the beasts and the trees and the fountains, and who killed and drove away the Dwarfs and fauns, and are now trying to cover up even the memory of them.".

The takeover of Narnia by the Telmarines wasn't wanted nor peaceful. It seems that the Telmarines weren't deposed because the Narnians weren't able to do so, not because they weren't inclined to do so. Plus it was hinted that there was "some disorder in Narnia" at the time of the arrival of the Telmarines so perhaps there was a state of anarchy at some point.

Ah, well done. I'd forgotten about that pesky conquerer. Hm. How much did my theory hinge on him? Ah, okay. I'll say that the Telmarines established an eventually peaceful throne after forcably unseating whatever regent was elected. How's that? As for the rest, I think it stands fairly well. I'm adamant on the length of time being at least a thousand years though. Hinged mainly on Peter's statement, plus the mythology grown around the Pevensie rule. It's taken for granted that the Civil War happened as written in history only 400 or so years ago, but less is known for certain about the reign of William the Conquerer. The surviving Narnians had largely forgotten or fictionalised the Golden Age.

[Narsil]

Ah, well done. I'd forgotten about that pesky conquerer. Hm. How much did my theory hinge on him? Ah, okay. I'll say that the Telmarines established an eventually peaceful throne after forcably unseating whatever regent was elected. How's that? As for the rest, I think it stands fairly well.

Perhaps the invasion of the Telmarines was a lot like William the Conqueror in that initially there was a conquest and subversion and eventually the Telmarines were grudgingly accepted by the Narnians as rulers. The next 8 Caspians (after the initial "Conquerer") might very well have been better than the first and even good kings but it seems that the evil doings of Miraz undermined whatever good will there might've been.

By the time Caspian met up with the "Old Narnians" they weren't living openly at all and the Telmarines had allowed the woods to grow up around the sea because they were afraid of both the sea (where Aslan came from) and the trees (with whom they had quarreled). You get the distinct impression that the dwarfs and talking animals kept themselves well hidden, even before Miraz. It seems that Miraz made a bad situation worse but it didn't sound very good to begin with.

I'm adamant on the length of time being at least a thousand years though. Hinged mainly on Peter's statement, plus the mythology grown around the Pevensie rule. It's taken for granted that the Civil War happened as written in history only 400 or so years ago, but less is known for certain about the reign of William the Conquerer. The surviving Narnians had largely forgotten or fictionalised the Golden Age.

Yep, I agree with this. I don't think they ruled all that long to begin with. A few decades perhaps? So it stands to reason that reality quickly became shrouded and enhanced by mythology. :)

[Hammersmith]

Yep, I agree with this. I don't think they ruled all that long to begin with. A few decades perhaps? So it stands to reason that reality quickly became shrouded and enhanced by mythology. :)

We know that they ruled long enough to grow into adults, yet not old to the point where they were unable to hunt on horseback. We also know that they ruled at least until Susan was of an age when Lewis would have felt comfortable marrying her off - doubtless at least early twenties. I'd say that a reign of between fifteen to twenty five years would be accurate, remembering that it also has to be an 'age' rather than just an anomaly between kings.

[Firawyn]

We know that they ruled long enough to grow into adults, yet not old to the point where they were unable to hunt on horseback. We also know that they ruled at least until Susan was of an age when Lewis would have felt comfortable marrying her off - doubtless at least early twenties. I'd say that a reign of between fifteen to twenty five years would be accurate, remembering that it also has to be an 'age' rather than just an anomaly between kings.

For informations sake, as of HHB, Peter was 27, Susan was 26, Ed 24, and Lucy 22. That was as of HHB, whick took place during thier reign. Now in PC, Susan talks about planting the orchard right before the whole ordeal with Tashban occured, and in VDT I belive, there was a reference made that the orchard had matured before they left Narnia. So that leads be to believe that they stayed in Narnia at least 2 or three more years after HHB, making Peter roughly 30.

[Hammersmith]

For informations sake, as of HHB, Peter was 27, Susan was 26, Ed 24, and Lucy 22. That was as of HHB, whick took place during thier reign. Now in PC, Susan talks about planting the orchard right before the whole ordeal with Tashban occured, and in VDT I belive, there was a reference made that the orchard had matured before they left Narnia. So that leads be to believe that they stayed in Narnia at least 2 or three more years after HHB, making Peter roughly 30.
!Wow! Thanks, Firawyn! Do you own an appendix to the books that nobody else has heard of, or have you actually been to Narnia? I'd love to know where you found that out. Good old Clive was a bit sketchy on background details.

[Narsil]

I've never seen actual ages listed. I'm wondering if that's off a CON forum or something I haven't read. I don't recall any ages being listed in the book.

I just reread The Last Battle and in it Tirian, the last king of Narnia says it's 200 years between him and Rilian. Caspian was Rilian's father and it's mentioned that the same children who helped Caspian "had been in Narnia over a thousand years before." It was also mentioned that all of them reigned till they were no longer children but "great Kings and lovely Queens" so those ages Firawyn listed do make sense.

[Rhiannon]

This is a fascinating discussion.

...that was all I had to contribute. I've asked this question many times, but I've never actually thought about it long enough to come up with an answer.

[Firawyn]

!Wow! Thanks, Firawyn! Do you own an appendix to the books that nobody else has heard of, or have you actually been to Narnia? I'd love to know where you found that out. Good old Clive was a bit sketchy on background details.


lol, I'll take that as a complament Hammersmith. I've read the Chronicals at least 20 times, no joke. My secret, however is, 'The Companion to Narnia' by Paul Ford. BEST REFERENCE BOOK EVER!!! :D

All the ages for characters from our world are listed in one of the apendixes. I'm acctaully attempting to write a book that covers the reign of the four children more in depth than Jack did in HHB. He dropped so many clues throughout the books he did write that writing about the Golden age is merely about filling in the blanks. I could make half the book about the voyage to Galma and the Seven Isles, etc.

Fir-

PS...I've been to Narnia many times, thank you! ;)

[Hammersmith]

Well thanks a lot, Firawyn, and it was most definitely a complament ;)
I too have read all of the books more times than you've had hot dinners, but I wasn't even aware any appendices existed, much less any reference books. Thanks for your reply!

[Firawyn]

lol, thanks.

There's no apendixes in the book themselves, you're right, Lewis was scetchy. The apendixes in 'the Companion' are a blessing!

Fir-