Is Dumbledore Really Dead?

[Narya]

There has been a lot of debate about Severus Snape's true character after HBP was released. Before HBP, he was a shadowy character but everyone had the same opinion of him: He hates Potter, but is loyal to Dumbledore.

Then he goes off and kills the old man.

Now many speculate that it was all planned out. That Snape in fact did what Dumbledore wanted him to do. However, there is another line of thinking going around, and it is a bit twisted. Some say that Dumbledore didn't actually die. That it was all an elaborate Hoax to give the impression that Snape is worthy of Voldemort's trust because this was all done in the presence of doubting Death Eaters.

There is even an entire website dedicated to this idea.

I throw the question to you all now. Is Dumbledore dead or alive? Support your answer with a bit of explanation. Discussion is always good and I like a good debate :D .

So...what do you guys think?

[Erurainon]

He says "Avada kedavra" so Big D. has to be dead. I don't know how can this be stopped by a tired old wizard.

[Turgon]

I agree with Erurainon, and I think it would be a little too 'Tolkien' to bring the great wizard back from his (seemingly) tragic death. A shame really, I was quite sad to see Snape fall back into darkness. I was always hoping he would turn out to be the real hero in the end... but who knows? Perhaps he will redeem himself? Yet I think Harry needs to face the coming darkness without Dumbledore in the final book... and so I'd be quite surprised to see the wizard again. In the flesh anyway.

Did Dumbledore's portrait appear in the Headmaster's study? I can't remember.

[Narya]

I agree with Erurainon, and I think it would be a little too 'Tolkien' to bring the great wizard back from his (seemingly) tragic death. A shame really, I was quite sad to see Snape fall back into darkness. I was always hoping he would turn out to be the real hero in the end... but who knows? Perhaps he will redeem himself? Yet I think Harry needs to face the coming darkness without Dumbledore in the final book... and so I'd be quite surprised to see the wizard again. In the flesh anyway.

Did Dumbledore's portrait appear in the Headmaster's study? I can't remember.

Yes, it did, Turgon, and that is where the whole Dumbledore-is-still-alive theory frizzled. You can't have a potrait there unless you're really dead -- unless of course Dumbledore has some kind of weird-ass magic we don't know of or will be revealed in the last book.

Actually, that was my first thought, that if JK was to bring the old wizard back it would be too "Gandalf", and Harry is going to be too "Frodo". Like Frodo Baggins, he had to face the ultimate challenge without the help and protection of his most powerful ally. Though Tolkien did bring the beloved wizard back to life (much to my delight, because I did cry after reading his fall in Moria), Frodo did everything he set out to do only with the help of Sam (and yes, of course of Gollum/Smeagol).

If Harry was = to Frodo, and Ron = Sam, does that mean that Hermione is = Smeagol?

We'll never know. Maybe, maybe not.

Anyone else have a theory?

[Erurainon]

If Harry was = to Frodo, and Ron = Sam, does that mean that Hermione is = Smeagol?

Dude, Dobby is smeagol:p, hermione is Arwen and whoever is her girlfriend is Aragorn!

Anyway, his portrait is still there, and there is probability that Harry will spare Snape's life and Snape will help Harry achieve his goal at the end. Would be really plagiarized that way...

[AraCelebEarwen]

Dumbledore is gone. Dead. Not coming back to the world of the living.

Are we never going to see him again?


That, I kind of doubt.

........

[Narya]

Dude, Dobby is smeagol:p, hermione is Arwen and whoever is her girlfriend is Aragorn!


Are you saying that Hermione is a lesbian?


Anyway, his portrait is still there, and there is probability that Harry will spare Snape's life and Snape will help Harry achieve his goal at the end. Would be really plagiarized that way...

...not following...:confused:

[Erurainon]

Are you saying that Hermione is a lesbian?

Ops.


...not following...:confused:

...the way Sam spared Smeagol's life on the climb to Orodruin, and how Smeagol "helped" the ring get destroyed?

[Barliman Butterbur]

Dumby's dead. Rowling wouldn't kid around with a thing like that with her readers, especially the younger ones. The question is: who are going to be the two who die in the last book????

Barley

[Arvedui]

I am not sure if he is really dead.
In the physical form, yes. But the hint at the funeral when Harry sees something like a phoenix soaring in the smoke, lead me to believe that Dumbledore might return at a later point. Much like Gandalf really. And with all the other close resemblances to LoTR, I would not be surprised.
And Dumbledore is/was regarded to be the greatest wizard.

[Turgon]

The question is: who are going to be the two who die in the last book????

It better not be Ron and Hermione.

:mad:

*waves a fist in Rowling's direction*

[Erurainon]

As far as I know it will be Ron and/or Neville, sorry.

[Narya]

As far as I know it will be Ron and/or Neville, sorry.


I think it's going to be Ron, One of the Twins, or Ginny (I hope it's her! She's really annoying!). Anyway, I think Ron is a sure goner. There are just far too many clues in all six books to deny that it would happen in the last one. I think it is also going to be the reason why Harry would like to die in the end. To sacrifice his own life --- happily. Because everyone he loves are already dead.

Hermione will become an Auror. Neville will become a Hogwarts teacher, and the subject will be Herbology.

Back to the topic, did anyone notice the way Fawkes was singing at the end of the story? Some say the song was reminiscent of the same song he sang whilst healing or protecting Harry. This led many to suspect that Fawkes was actually "healing" Dumbledore.

Another thing that they say is evidence that he's alive is the way he actually "died". The Flying Kedavra, is what they call it.

Anyone want to comment on that?

[Durin's Bane]

Ok, speaking of Smeagol, or rather a simmilar charecter... that'll be Snape...
And concerning Dumbledore's death... with all the phoenix stuff around him... and being the greatest of wizards... let's put it this way... Death is just another path... and you can't tell where it goes...

[Barliman Butterbur]

As far as I know it will be Ron and/or Neville, sorry.

And just how do you know this?

Barley

[Turgon]

Sorry for going off topic Narya... but I just can't help wondering what it would have been like if the internet was around back when LoTR was published? Would people be having these same discussion about Gandalf's death in the Fellowship?
Or at the end of Towers with Frodo? What did people think then? When I first read these books it was no problem for me to trot out and buy the next one... problem solved in a moment. What about those who had to wait to find out? Makes me wonder what they thought?

Anyway... back on topic... what on earth is The Flying Kadavre? Is that like a dead body thrown out a window or not? Enlighten us Narya...:D

[Narya]

Sorry for going off topic Narya... but I just can't help wondering what it would have been like if the internet was around back when LoTR was published? Would people be having these same discussion about Gandalf's death in the Fellowship?


I would think so. I would be one of those bawling my eyes out while typing a sort of Eulogy for Gandalf. I really did cry after reading that part. I was like 16 then and very emotional and gullible, and read the Hobbit before LOTR. I love Gandalf's character.

I think Gandalf has done more for his "constituents" than Dumbledore has for his students, Harry in particular. His persona is more endearing I think.


Or at the end of Towers with Frodo? What did people think then? When I first read these books it was no problem for me to trot out and buy the next one... problem solved in a moment. What about those who had to wait to find out? Makes me wonder what they thought?


Yes, that cliffhanger had me on pins and needles for at least an hour. I already had a copy of all four books so it wasn't hard to jump into the next one. But I had to do something else before going into it again.

I had that experience when I read the trilogy His Dark Materials. I got the first copy just to try it out. Then the bookstores ran out of stock of the next two books for like two months. :eek: I was on the brink of ordering it online - which would have been very bad for my finances. Good thing someone had it on ebook form and emailed me the second and third book. That got me through until I found copies of the books being sold and bought the two next volumes when I had the chance.



Anyway... back on topic... what on earth is The Flying Kadavre? Is that like a dead body thrown out a window or not? Enlighten us Narya...:D

This needs a new post. It's quite a long essay.

[Narya]

THE FLYING KEDAVRA
(SOURCE: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html)

As soon as I read the description of exactly what happened the moment that Snape killed Dumbledore, little red flags were popping up in my brain, but I didn't pay attention to them at first. This was actually the very first clue that alerted me to this whole thing.

Every other time we've seen the Avada Kedavra performed, the victim simply falls over dead:

He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor. (GoF pg 15/19)

From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF pg 638/553)

However, in Half-Blood Prince, when Snape curses Dumbledore with the same spell, Dumbledore violently flies up and away from the tower:
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP pg 596/556)

Why would this application of the Avada Kedavra be so different from every other time we've seen it?

Perhaps his spell was different because even though those were the words Snape said, he didn't perform the killing curse at all. Remember all the importance this book gave to "nonverbal" spells? Perhaps Snape said Avada Kedavra, but the curse he was really thinking, the nonverbal one, was a different curse, one that only made it appear that Dumbledore was dead.
The possibilty that Snape said one curse and cast another nonverbally might not be as likely if we couldn't recognize the curse that was really cast, but we can! Thanks to Brave Sir Blogger (http://www.coffeeshoptimes.com/bsbpottertheory.html) and Lindsay for bringing these passages to my attention:

Both of them swung their wands above their heads and pointed them at their opponent; Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: He flew backward off the stage, smashed into the wall, and slid down it to sprawl on the floor. (CoS pg 190/142)

Harry made up his mind in a split second. Before Snape could take even one step toward him, he had raised his wand. "Expelliarmus!" he yelled -- except that his wasn't the only voice that shouted. There was a blast that made the door rattle on its hinges; Snape was lifted off his feet and slammed into the wall, then slid down it to the floor, a trickle of blood oozing from under his hair. He had been knocked out. Harry looked around. Both Ron and Hermione had tried to disarm Snape at exactly the same moment. (PoA pg 361/265)

In these examples from Chamber of Secrets and Prisoner of Azkaban, different wizards are issuing the Expelliarmus spell with the results being described almost exactly the same way, the victim being voilenty blasted up and backwards. This also happens to be similar to the description of when Dumbledore is attacked up in the tower. So, even though Snape said Avada Kedavra, the evidence from the books shows that the nonverbal curse he cast was Expelliarmus!

Even the title of the chapter this all takes place in is suspicous, "The Lightning-Struck Tower". Even though this is the name of the ominous tarot card that Trelawney was worried about back on page 543/507 in chapter 25, is it possible that J.K. is hinting here that the spell was not Avada Kedavra, but some other spell that had lightening-type effects instead?
But there is even another clue that Dumbledore's flying off the tower that night was a prearranged ruse between himself and Snape. Back in chapter nineteen, when Harry orders Dobby and Kreacher to follow Malfoy around in an effort to figure out what he was up to, Dobby replies:

"Yes, Harry Potter!" said Dobby at once, his great eyes shining with excitement. "And if Dobby does it wrong, Dobby will throw himself off the topmost tower, Harry Potter!" (HBP pg 422/395)

Notice, Dobby says "throw himself", not something like "you can throw me". Also, Dobby specifically mentions "the topmost tower", exactly the place where the "death" of Dumbledore later occurs in the same way.
Now, even though we know Dobby gets around and probably hears a lot of things he shouldn't in the castle, we're not suggesting Dumbledore could so easily slip up and let Dobby be privy to such a secret plan. But what we are suggesting is that J.K. is not above using something Dobby says to plant a clue for us that later on in the story it would be Dumbledore, himself, who planned the whole death cherade, and caused himself, or arranged for himself, to be thrown from the top of the tallest Astronomy tower.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Narya, ya oughta be a lawyer — good exposition! We'll find out the facts when Book 7 comes out! :)

Barley

[Narya]

*wonders if she should tell Barliman Butterbur that she did not write that piece*

Oh well, guess I could use a bit of ego-tripping. :D

Think that was a good deposition, do you? Hmmm....*rethinks career*

[Erurainon]

Read it somwhere, Barliman:p (dont remember where, however)

[Arvedui]

I am sorry to rain on your parade, but what the writer is calling evidence, is not evidence at all. It is nothing more than his/her own speculations. Take for instace this phrase:
So, even though Snape said Avada Kedavra, the evidence from the books shows that the nonverbal curse he cast was Expelliarmus!
The tone in this sentence is like nothing I have ever heard or read since Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Or since Colin Powell showed the proof of existing WMD's in Iraq for that matter.
Even if Dumbledore may have reacted the same way as others reacted to the Expelliarmus curse, it is no evidence that Snape used that non-verbal curse. At best, it is a possibility.

Also, the use of Dobby's statement as proof can only be a result of wishful thinking. Chances as that mrs. Rowling meant nothing by it when that was written. After all, with all the logical loopholes in the history, I would be very surprised if such care was taken to hint at the possibility that Dumbledore might not be dead after all.

And Narya, before attacking: remember that I am one of those who believe that Dumbledore didn't die. I think that your mentioning of Fawkes' song is a much bigger piece of the puzzle, than the self-exlaimed "evidence" in the writing you quoted.

And I'd better start looking for a shelter, right?;):D

[Barliman Butterbur]

I am sorry to rain on your parade, but what the writer is calling evidence, is not evidence at all. It is nothing more than his/her own speculations.

Right on! And God knows, this place is no stranger to speculation! ;) :p :eek:

Barley

[Arvedui]

Right on! And God knows, this place is no stranger to speculation! ;) :p :eek:

Barley
What!!!!:eek:
Have I ben misinformed all these years?:cool::D:D

[Narya]

And Narya, before attacking: remember that I am one of those who believe that Dumbledore didn't die. I think that your mentioning of Fawkes' song is a much bigger piece of the puzzle, than the self-exlaimed "evidence" in the writing you quoted.

And I'd better start looking for a shelter, right?;):D

Attacking? What am I, a dragon? Do not be afeared of me, Arvedui. In this particular topic, believe it or not, I am neutral. I can't make up my mind.

[Arvedui]

You are more or less just like me, then: can't wait for the book to turn up for sale. :)

[Maeglin]

I believe that Dumbledore really is dead, but that we will see him again. I think Harry will end up seeing him again in the pensieve, in which Dumbledore will have planted a memory explaining Snape's innocence. :cool:

[Durin's Bane]

I think Harry will end up seeing him again in the pensieve, in which Dumbledore will have planted a memory explaining Snape's innocence. :cool:
Now that's a good one!!!

I've been thinking of the portraits... One can drift between all the portraits he's in, right? So where is Dumbledore's other portrait?

[Narya]

I like that Pensieve Idea, Maeglin. It sounds so "Dumbledorish". I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's actually true, I never did believe that Snape was evil. He hated Harry and his father and for good reason. James (and Sirius) were cruel to him at school. What they did to Snape is far worse than what Draco does to Harry, and Harry has friends and the entire Gryffindor house to back him up. :(

[Barliman Butterbur]

You are more or less just like me, then: can't wait for the book to turn up for sale. :)

You can sign up at Amazon for an email notification of when you can pre-order the book.

Barley