Goldberry a Mermaid?

[Kementari]

I havent posted a thread in YEARS

Has this question been posed before? I’m sure it must have been at some point...

I was idly flipping through the Fellowship of the Ring and I noticed a small detail that I had passed over many times before:

“...her shoes were like fishes’ mail” - In the House of Tom Bombadil.

It happened that I was just watching the Little Mermaid (favourite movie as a kid)

The two rambling neural pathways collided and my imagination fired. Whoa. I went back over the previous pages to look for more evidence. Goldberry had been away the whole day performing secretive cleaning activities in the middle of a rain storm that is far too messy for ordinary people. I thought: hair dryer, Deryll Hannah, Splash– hello!

In the poems about Goldberry its seems clear that she used to live in the Withywindle River before Tom lured her away. Personally I think it would be uncomfortable sitting around by a river all the time with a tree-dwelling humanoid body.

I think that its very obvious that Goldberry is an allusion to the common “river goddess”that exists in many ancient religions: Saraswati, the wife of the first god in the Hindu trinity, is a good example. Goddesses or gods were also worshiped regionally by native populations, we don’t have all the names but it seems like a fairly common practice. Well known examples of other water deities are the Greek water Nymphs, like Thetis, Arthur’s Lady of the Lake ect... Grendel’s mother lived underwater if i remember correctly... And I think the creatures with the strongest links to Goldberry are the German Nixes. Upon further research I have discovered that Nixes lived in fresh water, are associated with water lilies, and could take the shape of a human or a fish!

Do you think its possible that maybe Goldberry was anthropomorphic? Or that she could change into fish like Nixes perhaps?

[Firawyn]

Fasinating theory...I'm with you. (plus Little Mermaid is still my favorite movie!)

Another possability is that Goldberry is Tolkien's idea of an Atlantian...

I'm also curious to know why Tolkien did not make more 'Goldberrys' in his books.

And of course there's the ever standing question of what Tom Bombadil is as well.

What race has the power to draw Nixes out of the water? And that brainwave, was Goldberry a slave in her own mind...unable to leave Tom and return to the water?

[Kementari]

I re-examined "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", a hard to find poem published seperatly in a poetry collection of the same name
(yeah--when I am *suppose* to be researching a history essay I'm researching this--bad, :D) To me it confirms that Goldberry was a fish-lady of some kind

"sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.


There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter;
pulled Tom's hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing...

...said Tom Bombadil. "I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!"

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry..."

The last part quoted is a direct allusion to Beowulf. He translated it. He knew.




What race has the power to draw Nixes out of the water?

I found some rather exciting information! According to Karl Haupt who has complied German/Polish folklore:

"On dry land [a nix (fem. nixe)] is powerless, and can be taken prisoner and forced into servitude."


From the "Aventures" it seems Tom didnt so much lure Goldberry as violently kidnap her.

"He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: "Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me!"


And that brainwave, was Goldberry a slave in her own mind...unable to leave Tom and return to the water?

EXCELLENT and kinda kinky question. I think its impossible to guess what she was thinking. Goldberry seemed to perform pretty menial slave-girl type tasks like cooking and cleaning. On the other hand, Tom seems eager to satisfy her and keep her happy, by going out and bringing her flowers and things...Hmmm, hard to say

On a side note, Ive also seen sources that link both nixes and Tom Bombadil to the Norse god Odin

[Firawyn]

Another question to pose: Have you acctaully read the orginal "Little Mermaid" story? Now that's an odd one! :eek:


You know I always liked Tom...not now. He's an @ss. Humm...I'd like to get some other view points on this topic...anybody else out there besides me and Kem?

[YayGollum]

I am here.

Yes, I do believe that the Goldberry character could have been anthropomorphic. Or that she might have been able to turn into a fish like a Nix thing. Why not? I would still call her a watery type of Ainur thing, though, but then, mayhaps that title is just too general?

I doubt that the Goldberry character could be the Tolkien dude's idea of an Atlantian, though. That would be Numenoreans, yes?

Why he didn't make more Goldberry type things in his books ---> Like all Ainur type things, the ones who were overly sociable with lesser races outside of Valinor were rare. Most hung out in Valinor (who wouldn't?), or they'd just hang out in their favorite spots without wearing their physical forms.

As to the poor lady being some brand of slave ---> Sounds unlikely. But then, mayhaps a large as well as avoided reason that most at that Council Of The Wise Dudes didn't wish to bother Tom Bombadil with One Ring duties would be because they weren't large fans of speaking with such an evil guy. :eek: :rolleyes:

I have read the original The Little Mermaid story. A while ago.

I never liked that Tom Bombadil enigma dude, either. Mostly because he's annoying, super powerful, and very boring.

Also, crazy fans of that The Little Mermaid movie. *still can't say "Poor unfortunate souls!" without singing* :rolleyes: How could that be your favorite?

[Firawyn]

I doubt that the Goldberry character could be the Tolkien dude's idea of an Atlantian, though. That would be Numenoreans, yes?

*nods head* Yes, I think you're more on the mark there.


As to the poor lady being some brand of slave ---> Sounds unlikely. But then, mayhaps a large as well as avoided reason that most at that Council Of The Wise Dudes didn't wish to bother Tom Bombadil with One Ring duties would be because they weren't large fans of speaking with such an evil guy.

Perhaps they all knew that he'd take it for himself...hey I wonder if Sauron and Tom were brothers...you know how they always have a brother who is super good and a brother who is super bad...or maybe Sauron was just misunderstood.;) :p And maybe Tom really isn't all that good.

I have read the original The Little Mermaid story. A while ago.

It's worth the read!

I never liked that Tom Bombadil enigma dude, either. Mostly because he's annoying, super powerful, and very boring.


I thought he was boring too. Perhaps that's why I didn't get so mad about them keeping him out of the movies... Great minds think alike!:cool:

Also, crazy fans of that The Little Mermaid movie. *still can't say "Poor unfortunate souls!" without singing* How could that be your favorite?

LOL, me niether! Right now however, I have Joan Jett playing in the background so I'm all good!:D

[Shireman D]

One of Valar was said to have all waters under charge - sorry can't remember which one. If Goldberry is a child of that kind of character that would mean she had - at least - Ainur status, maybe even be of the line of the Valar. That would make her an appropriate match for Tom.

The whole Tom episode is an odd diversion (reluctantly, I think PJ was probably right to leave it out of the film) and seems like a narrative dead end. I get the feeling that JRRT was not altogether sure of what to make of him either.

[Kementari]

Nope, i havent read the story, but i should look into it. i like folklore...


Also, crazy fans of that The Little Mermaid movie. *still can't say "Poor unfortunate souls!" without singing* :rolleyes: How could that be your favorite?

I have the exact same problem when i say "Kiss the girl" or "Under the Sea"--somehow it always comes out with a Jamacian accent. It just rocks! "Come ahhn"

The whole Tom episode is an odd diversion (reluctantly, I think PJ was probably right to leave it out of the film) and seems like a narrative dead end. I get the feeling that JRRT was not altogether sure of what to make of him either.

Hm...I think that in the beginning Tolkien must have been writing LotR in the same light style as The Hobbit. We get a little taste of the dark grimness of the book in 'Shadow of the Past' but it really doesnt develop fully until around the time Boromir dies, in my opinion. Tom really is out of place and must have been writen when Tolkien was heading in a different direction. Like most authours he probably didnt have the heart to destroy his creation and take Tom out of the book.