Mîm and the great 'tater' mystery?

[Ancalagon]

This is rather a pointless question but one that I have been mulling over since I re-read The Children of Hurin. It is not the most important question I have from reading the book but it still niggles me nonetheless:)

But when they were cooked these roots proved good to eat, somewhat like bread; and the outlaws were glad of them, for they had long lacked bread save when they could steal it. "Wild Elves know them not; Grey-elves have not found them; the proud ones from over the Sea are too proud to delve," said Mîm.
"What is their name?" said Túrin. Mîm looked at him sidelong. "They have no name, save in the Dwarf-tongue, which we do not teach," he said. "And we not teach Men to find them, for Men are greedy and thriftless, and would not spare till all the plants had perished; whereas now they pass them by as they go blundering in the wild. No more will you learn of me; but you may have enough of my bounty, as long as you speak fair and do not spy or steal." Then again he laughed in his throat. "They are of great worth." he said. "More than gold in the hungry winter, for they may be hoarded like the nuts of a squirrel, and already we were building our store from the first that are ripe. Unfinished Tales

I borrowed this from UT as it closely resembles The Children of Hurin version.

I wonder then do Mîm's 'roots' tally with Sam's 'taters' when he is cooking his rabbit in 'Herbs and Stewed Rabbit'? The problem for me is that 'taters' can't be stored for long whereas Mîm would say these 'roots' may be horded like nuts.

What do you think?

[Turgon]

Seems quite a reasonable deduction really. I think hardier varieties of potato can be stored for a few months given the right conditions? I remember hearing that on Gardeners World or some such program. Maybe somebody with better horticultural knowledge will tell you more. I guess the Gaffer would have been the chap to ask. Quite the expert on taters as I remember.

[Ancalagon]

Hello Turgon old friend:)

I am of the opinion however we could be considering a new and as yet unheard of 'root'. Taters unfortunately have a shelf life of about 3 weeks max as far as I know, probably the same as turnips, so I am not convinced they are one and the same!

[Annaheru]

I dunno, me dad grows potatoes and he keeps them longer than three weeks. . . longer than 3 months, actually. If you keep them in a cold, dry area so they don't rot and cut off the eyes when they start growing they easily last all winter.

[Turgon]

Hey Anc, nice to see you around too!

:)

Annaheru, that's what I heard myself, though any attempts at growing taters on my part (I admit there was only one attempt) ended in total failure. The infomation I had though was about homegrown potatoes, perhaps it is the case that taters grown specifically for the market are bred for taste and so not as hardy? When I was a kid, some time ago now, we used to get potatoes in giant sacks, which seemed to last for an age. Although I was to young to remember the specifics, that is to say I had no interest in potatoes at the time. I'm sure they were just stuck somewhere cool and dark.

[Chymaera]

Hi Anc, Hi Turgon. :)

I am afraid that Mîm's roots are one of those story lines that the Prof. just did not pursuit.

I like the idea of a link between Mîm's root and Sam's taters though. Neither one has to have a real connection with modern potates.

[Barliman Butterbur]

This is rather a pointless question but one that I have been mulling over since I re-read The Children of Hurin. It is not the most important question I have from reading the book but it still niggles me nonetheless:)

Unfinished Tales

I borrowed this from UT as it closely resembles The Children of Hurin version.

I wonder then do Mîm's 'roots' tally with Sam's 'taters' when he is cooking his rabbit in 'Herbs and Stewed Rabbit'? The problem for me is that 'taters' can't be stored for long whereas Mîm would say these 'roots' may be horded like nuts.

What do you think?

I think that the description matches the breadfruit tree:

"Breadfruit is a staple food in many tropical regions. They were propagated far outside their native range by Polynesian voyagers who transported root cuttings and air-layered plants over long ocean distances. They are very rich in starch, and before being eaten they are roasted, baked, fried, or boiled. When cooked the taste is described as potato-like, or similar to fresh baked bread (hence the name)."

Barley

[Annaheru]

Except that breadfruit grow on a tree and are, in any case, a fruit-- not a root.

I think the Prof. was thinking of something more familiar and that the root is either a potato or (as Chymaera stated) something we're not familiar with.

Personally I think we're seeing the potato- 1) it's a small round root long hidden from Europeans, 2) it became a staple food during the 15th-17th centuries, and was indeed overused (as Mim predicted) leading to the Irish potato famine, 3) I don't know about anywhere else, but here in southeastern Pa many people love their potato bread.

the potato just seems to fit.

[Snaga]

In the tale there is an unanswered question about whether Mim's sacks only contained root veg, or whether there was something more valuable that he was concealing in there. At least I think its never quite answered. Androg thinks Mim has something else in there, but Mim says no. Turin calls Androg a fool for voicing his theories, but then, unless I am mistaken nothing else is ever said of it.:confused:

Or have I not read carefully enough?

[Barliman Butterbur]

In the tale there is an unanswered question about whether Mim's sacks only contained root veg, or whether there was something more valuable that he was concealing in there. At least I think its never quite answered. Androg thinks Mim has something else in there, but Mim says no. Turin calls Androg a fool for voicing his theories, but then, unless I am mistaken nothing else is ever said of it.:confused:

Or have I not read carefully enough?

If this guy's name is Mim, then what was the name of the only female dwarf every mentioned in the book?

Barley

[Turgon]

Wasn't that Dís, Barley? Thorin's sister? I know she is mentioned in the Appendices, I'm not sure if that is who you are refering too though.

Chymaera! Good to see you around old chap!

[Barliman Butterbur]

Wasn't that Dís, Barley? Thorin's sister? I know she is mentioned in the Appendices, I'm not sure if that is who you are refering too though.

I'm not sure, but the name was just one syllable, so that may have been it. Are you talking about the LOTR appendices? If so, I'll go have a hunt (after my 2nd-breakfast nap)...

Barley

[Turgon]

Just reread the Mîm section of the UT version of the story, you piqued my interest Snaga.

It does say this in the footnotes:

'The mystery of the things in Mîm's sack is not explained. The only other statement on the subject is in a hastily scribbled note, which suggests that there were ingots of gold disguised as roots, and refers to Mîm seeking 'for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the "flat stones" '. These were no doubt those refered to in the text as 'great stones, leaning or tumbled together', at the place where Mîm was captured. But there is nowhere any indication of what part this treasure was to play in the story of Bar-en-Danwedh.'

[Snaga]

Thanks Turgon, old friend. Its reassuring to know that I wasn't wrong that this was a loose end. No doubt one that would have required further expansion of the tale by the good professor, and therefore further delayed and prevented its publication in his time.

I think perhaps this might have provided the basis for a slightly better reason for Mim's betrayal of the outlaws to the orcs. I felt that it was a little bit of a push that Mim would have taken the risk of going to the orcs purely out of loathing for Beleg. On the other hand, a threat to his wealth adds a greater motivation, maybe.

[Turgon]

:)

I agree with you on that Snaga it does give Mîm a better motive for his betrayal. It also potrays Mîm as something of a deceiver right from the start, he makes such a big deal of the sack, ending up in bonds for the sake of what seems to be nothing more than pride, which lends him quite a sympathic air upon first meeting. Hmm... but I digress. Yes it would be interested to know quite how Tolkien planned on using this gold. I was skimming through the Lost Tales version of Túrin last night thinking maybe there was an answer to your question there. In BoLT though, that whole section is missing. Mîm plays the part of a Captain of Glaurung who is set to guard the treasure in Nargothrond, cursing Glaurung's gold when Húrin slays him. This gold goes on to create all manner of mischief. Very different from what is in the published Silmarillion. I wonder if Tolkien's scraps on das Rootgold were not a vestige, or at least a nod to this earlier version.

[Snaga]

Hmmm... well Mim's role in cursing the gold remains in the published Sil, but the matter of the roots is wholly absent. Following your lead I also looked at BoLT2 - to read for myself the astonishing idea that Mim was Glaurung's Captain. I must say, the subsequent modifications are an improvement!

I also looked at HOME3 (Lays of Beleriand). Only to find that the name of Mim does not appear, and neither is there a dwarf. The traitor is an elf who was taken to Nogrod, the city of the - at this point in the development - evil dwarfs, and raised there. His name was Blodrin (which sounds Welsh!), but of course those Lays don't proceed far enough to see how the episode with Hurin after Glaurung's death would have been handled.

It seems to me there was a progression in the development in the motivation of 'the traitor' from 'evil by nature' to 'evil by embitterment' and... if we are right... then it may have changed yet again.

[Turgon]

Hmmm... well Mim's role in cursing the gold remains in the published Sil, but the matter of the roots is wholly absent.

Does it? I did mean to check up on that, but I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Silmarillion when I moved a large portion of my books to new bookcases down in my living room. I guess my knowledge of the Silmarillion is on the slide, perhaps I am due for a reread.

It seems to me there was a progression in the development in the motivation of 'the traitor' from 'evil by nature' to 'evil by embitterment' and... if we are right... then it may have changed yet again.

Yes, it's no wonder he never got the thing finished. Though I don't really mind the Beleg motive, he did rob Mîm of vengence for his dead son after all, something quite important in the dwarven mindset, I think greed would make a good substitute, or addition to his later actions. Especially considering Mîm's apparent respect and/or affection for Túrin.

As a footnote: This whole Rootgold thing has got me wondering whether or not potatoes would make a nifty disguise for ingots. To quote those old KP crisp adverts.

Old Monk: 'What is it?'

Young Monk: 'I don't know, it's all covered in mud.'

[chrysophalax]

Leave it to my fellow Dragon to dredge up an obscure item like this one. I suppose I really should get the HoME books so I can actually have an opinion...

I was amused by Turgon's comment on the ingots *imagines a dwarf scratching his beard while looking down at a potato-shaped ingot mold and pondering whether or not to create a sweet potato version just for the sake of variety.*

Am wondering where Yay is on this topic. since Mim is among his favourite characters. When he sees this, expect a rant.

[Turgon]

Well Chrys, my thinking went this way: Perhaps the ingots were not the shape we have today, or that maybe the ruins Mîm had been searching had been set to the torch and the ingots melted into convenient potato shapes. On reflection though it is a stupid idea, and you are right to be humoured by it. It seems quite obvious to me now that the actual roots the ingots were disguised as are, in fact, your common or garden carrot. Yes, that right. The carrot. In fact, if my dwarf-lore doesn't fail me, wasn't the carrot the original standard of gold purity set by Durin the Deathless? Indeed legend doth tell that Durin himself did wear a pinky ring of no less than sixty-nine carrot gold.

*nods sagely*

[chrysophalax]

Methinks you could be right, friend Turgon, save in your spelling. In Khuzdul, I think it would be "kharat-weight". Sorry, Anc. :o I'll try to behave...

[Snaga]

Hahahaha!

I wish I had something less sensible and more witty to add. But, alas...

I note that (it seems) the word 'ingot' is Christopher Tolkien's - is it not? I would think it would make more sense if Mim had nuggets rather than ingots in the sack. A large nugget could ... perhaps ... be mistaken for a root vegetable. Or a piece of reconsituted chicken.

[GuardianRanger]

In the tale there is an unanswered question about whether Mim's sacks only contained root veg, or whether there was something more valuable that he was concealing in there. At least I think its never quite answered. Androg thinks Mim has something else in there, but Mim says no. Turin calls Androg a fool for voicing his theories, but then, unless I am mistaken nothing else is ever said of it.:confused:

Or have I not read carefully enough?

I just read that chapter today, and I was wondering the same thing.
(I've read the posts after yours......)

[YayGollum]

Argh! So sickeningly reliable! So easily summoned! I wouldn't make a good deity, since ignoring so many calls seems to be a prerequisite. oh well. I haven't read that The Children Of Hurin book yet, which is why I haven't jumped in here yet. I'm waiting for it.

Anyways, yes, I easily envision Mim's roots to be some superly cool and Dwarvishly magical food. Yay for Dwarvish potatoes! Way better than elfy wafers! Magic doesn't even have to be a part of them, either, I guess, since Dwarves are easily the best at whatever their chosen fields end up to be. Dwarvish gardeners would be the best. They'd have had plenty of time to breed the best potatoes, then let them loose on Middle Earth. Mim had plenty of pride in the things, since he's a Dwarf, and none of the more boring races had figured the things out.

As to the other bit of discussion going on, is there a question that needs answering? Looks as if it's pretty clear. Mim was out looking for gold, didn't have much skill at finding it, made sure to disguise the bit that he could find. His reason for leading Orcs to his place was still the same as it was for leading humans to his place. ---> They are pure evil and would have killed him if he hadn't. :confused:

[Snaga]

I think you may already be deity for the hopeless underdogs!;)

Anyway... on the last point - once Mim was in the hands of the orcs, you are right they would have killed him. The thing is, he knew about the orcs, and went to make a deal with them. So it was his choice to betray Turin, Beleg and the outlaws.

[YayGollum]

Betray? Good old Mim? Nah. He's too cool. In that The Children Of Hurin book, he ran outside shouting, "Hey, Orcses! Proceed towards my voice and obtain me!" then introduced himself and offered to lead them to a good source of fresh meat? Hm. Is that how it happened in that The Silmarillion book? Why do I not remember him ever seeking Orcses out? oh well. However he came into contact with Orcs, he'd have to give them something to keep from getting killed, and he had no reason to be loyal to a bunch of humans and some sickening elf. Those dudes forced their way into his home and started eating up all of his food and being nosey about his gold. Always coming in and out, how soon would it have been before Orcs found his place and killed him, anyways? Just because he made life inconvenient for a bunch of humans and some sickening elf doesn't make him a traitor. They were just as much his enemies as the Orcs were, even if he had the odd friendly-seeming conversation with Turin elfbane.