Who was most to blame for Turin's fate?

[Snaga]

OK so some of those poll options are perhaps a little bit frivolous but there is an interesting question. Does Turin make his own mistakes, or is his fate inescapable because Morgoth's power is too great? Or indeed, that Glaurung's was too great?

[UnderTheOath]

Morgoth. Definitely Morgoth.

Sure Turin makes his own mistakes, but that is all Morgoth's influence.

[YayGollum]

I voted for Turin elfbane. Are not humans supposed to have free will? Most people can point out the parts in the story where he made mistakes. I don't see Mel or Glaurung or any of those others sitting on his shoulder and persuading him to be unintelligent. Mel's little curse was merely a parlour trick. He knew what was going to happen before it happened, of course. He had a bit of each of the talents that every other Ainur type had, yes? Seeing into the future was one of those talents. Making a large deal about tossing a curse at the guy was merely another form of torture for his dad.

[Annaheru]

I voted for Morgoth because of the impression made by the introduction to The Children of Hurin. I hadn't known that Tolkien almost titled the story something like Morgoth's Curse. It seems to me that Tolkien thought of the curse as the primary means of determining Turin's fate.
Obviously Turin's actions bear some responsibility (esp. those in Doriath where the curse seems to have been cancelled out by Melian's girdle) for his fate, but Morgoth's curse seems to be "most to blame."

[Barliman Butterbur]

In the introduction to COH, CT explains that these elves were born into a set of conditions set up by Morgoth specifically designed so that no matter what the elves did, they were doomed to fail. They were actually born into a reality designed to bring them down.

Barley

[Chymaera]

I have to vote for Turin. As Yay says he was Human and one of mans gifts was to have freewill (trumping Vala type curses:D )

And if Morwen had gone to Doaith with him right away chances are that he would have stayed longer with Thingol and also have met his sister. Solving all kinds of problems later on.

[Snaga]

Taking these points together... at one point early-ish in the story when Melian tries to get Morwen to come to Doriath to forestall Morgoth's plans, and Morwen refuses, the narrator comments that Melian realises that Morgoth's plans cannot lightly be put aside. Indeed, all the attempts of the elves to warn Turin, Morwen etc of the web that has been spun for them fail (e.g. Gwindor's warning to Turin about not abandoning Finduilas).

Does this mean that the elves cannot halt Morgoth's plan, but Turin might have? We also have the comment that Morgoth fears that Turin may become so great as to break free from his schemes.

Nevertheless, I think it is a harsh call to really blame Turin for a lot of what happens. Even the things that I used to consider to be a straightforward "mistake" by Turin - in particular his "Nargothrond Forward" Policy - I'm less convinced of now. Turin's argument that Nargothrond should fight now because they would meet their fate in end whatever they did and therefore better to do so boldly almost had me convinced.

[Chymaera]

The question is who is most to blame.

Turin is most to blame, but I think that that is an unfair question. I think that if Hurin had died in battle or had lived and to returned home either in defeat or in victory, Turin's fate would have been much the same in the end, pain, dispare, misunderstanding, treachery, all that stuff. The details would be differnt but the end would be the same.

[chrysophalax]

Definitely Turin. Talk about someone in desperate need of a therapist!

[Ingwë]

I voted Morgoth.
Turin was cursed by Morgoth and all events were caused by that curse.

[YayGollum]

Where is evidence that anything is caused by any curses? What, those dead dudes that the evil Aragorn ended up using? No curse caused their spirits to hang around. Their own stupid as well as strongly held beliefs kept them around. Yay for the power of the mind? :rolleyes: But then, did Turin even know that Mel tossed that curse at him? Doesn't matter. Some problems were caused by Mel throwing actual threats around. Most of the achingly horrible stuff just happened because Turin made incorrect decisions.

[redline2200]

How many times did Turin turn down wisdom and advice given to him by friends and allies throughout the story? Vala or not, Morgoth's curse did not [I]control[I] Turin's fate. It was a threat that he made to Hurin to intimidate and frighten him. Although Morgoth certainly did do everything in his power to bring about the fulfillment of his curse, it was ultimately Turin's foolish ignoring of the repeated sound advice he recieved that sealed his fate.

My vote is with Turin Turambar ;).

[Thorin]

How many times did Turin turn down wisdom and advice given to him by friends and allies throughout the story? Vala or not, Morgoth's curse did not [I]control[I] Turin's fate. It was a threat that he made to Hurin to intimidate and frighten him. Although Morgoth certainly did do everything in his power to bring about the fulfillment of his curse, it was ultimately Turin's foolish ignoring of the repeated sound advice he recieved that sealed his fate.

My vote is with Turin Turambar ;).

I agree redline. I believe that most of Turin's problems were due to him remaining in the wilderness to lead the outlaws. Turin was pardoned by Thingol and Melian for why he left Doriath. Beleg searched high and low for him and brought the tidings of forgiveness and the imploring to come back. Turin refused.

Did Morgoth's curse cause him to refuse?

If pain and sorrow followed him back to Doriath and nothing he could do even in that blessed land could turn out right, then the point might be made that Morgoth's curse sealed Turin's destiny, but Turin didn't even do his own part.

He had the chance for reconciliation but chose to remain an outlaw. His problems and eventual downfall followed.

[Master of maps]

i voted turin, because though morgoth had a hand in deciding turins fate, he was ultimately the one who made the decisions that eventually resulted in his taking of his own life. morgoths curse could probibly have been avoided, had he made different (less irrational) decisions;)