Does Morgoth sacrifice Glaurung to spite Hurin?

[Snaga]

Morgoth boasts that he is in control of Turin's fate, and that his curse is on all the children of Hurin. Did he know he would lose Glaurung? Did the loss of Glaurung seem worthwhile? And was he, from his point of view - i.e. militarily, right?

[Maedhros]

Morgoth boasts that he is in control of Turin's fate, and that his curse is on all the children of Hurin. Did he know he would lose Glaurung? Did the loss of Glaurung seem worthwhile?
Of course not. Morgoth may boast but he is not in control of Túrin's fate.
From the War of the Jewels: Referring to Húrin
[Some have said that] maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide.
Besides I don't see Glaurung been killed by Túrin just because Morgoth tells him so.

[Snaga]

Your second point is obviously right, Maedhros. Glaurung clearly didn't know that Turin would kill him - but that doesn't tell us anything about what Morgoth knew. After all, Morgoth would not have told Glaurung if it did not serve his purpose.

Now, on the first point, I don't really believe that Morgoth had 100% control, but he certainly was influencing events. Otherwise, what does his curse count for? The question is, then, how much does he know? And how too, does his curse come home, if Turin does not kill Glaurung? When Glaurung is killed the horror of Turin's marriage to his sister is revealed, and that is when he realises what has befallen.

I suppose what I'd really be interested in is some guesses as how to how Morgoth believed events would turn out.

And if Morgoth considered Glaurung was at all vulnerable?

[Nóm]

I think Morgoth knew it would happen. What did he care at that point? The Noldor were in ruin, and he had the likes of Ancalagon down in Angband in case Turgon, Dwarves, Valar, or anybody got "stupid enough to try anything".

We can be sure Morgoth didn't have any affection for the creature. He was not capable of it.

Militarily? Not smart if you ask me. I think his lust for destruction and his burning hatred for all things could sometimes overrun his rational thought.

Who knows what Glaurund might have gone on to do... great things maybe? Might have taken out Earendel and those refugees from Gondolin.

And yeah, I think Morgoth knew the dragon was vulnerable. He even knew he was vulnerable himself. For instance he always hid in Angband. Also, he only faced Fingolfin so he could look big in front of his captains. And I bet they knew it.

[Starbrow]

If Glaurung had not been killed, I'm sure that Morgoth could have found another way for Turing to find out about his marriage to his sister. -Probably an even more humiliating way.

[Eledhwen]

Morgoth's loss of Glaurung is the triumph of this story.

Although Hurin and Morwen lost all their children and have only the briefests of reunions at the end of Morwen's life; Hurin's surviving children are like those of Oskar Schindler - They were the many who would have suffered and died in the event of the continued existence of Glaurung, but instead lived and multiplied.

[Starbrow]

This is a bit off-topic.
I was surprised to find Glaurung described in my son's book about kinds of dragons. I hadn't thought that he was so well-known as to be listed in a children's book along with Smaug and Norwegian Ridgebacks (from the Harry Potter series).

[Barliman Butterbur]

My understanding is that Morgoth so structured reality concerning the family of Húrin, that no matter what they tried or how valiantly or how long or determinedly they tried it, they would eventually, over time, lose in the end. The curse was in the very nature of things, in the very interstices of reality. However, that's not to say that all was predetermined and guaranteed. Things could go amiss for even the most powerful evil. One of the major things that went amiss was the loss of Glaurung, the net effect of which was merely to delay, for a bit, the general overlying curse placed on both elves and men: a temporary minor holdup of their combined "long defeat." (Men eventually outlasted elves of course, but I submit that that may have been the most Pyrrhic of victories...especially when one gets into Tolkien's aborted writings dealing with the Fourth Age (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17202&highlight=fourth+age).)

Once I realized this (that nothing would stop the doom placed on them), I stopped reading COH (which is a kind of distilled Silmarillion with dialogue) and SIL. They are, for me at least, Tolkien at his most depressing and hopeless. I believe the general black mood and tone is the direct result of his experiences in WW I, and his attempted cartharsis of them.

Barley

[Nóm]

I think the Doom of the Noldor in the following of Feanor back to Middle-earth under the circumstances, the idleness of the Valar, had more power than Morgoth over the Elves of Middle-earth. The Noldor had cursed themselves more surely than Morgoth in a way. The primary means of this was, IMO, their distrust of eachother. They failed to cooperate together, in part because of the blasphemous Oath of Feanor and his sons, but also, as the Prophecy of the North says - treachery and fear of treachery among kin.

I hope you decide to read the COH through some day Barliman, just in case you might find something in it.

The Silmarrillion is filled with dark and terrible despair but there is hope that shines through in the end. Though personal experiences must have shaped JRRT's fiction, I think that just as influential over his writting was his own religious beliefs, and in the case of bleakness - his views on the very nature of Man.

In the Legendarium, it is only someone as powerful and utterly evil as Morgoth who could have the power to bring about the Fall of Men. This could not be accomplished without Morgoth doing terrible deeds and having reign over Middle-earth at some point.

I know The Silmarillion is more gloomy in nature than The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but in the latter can be seen the same principals at work in the world as were also in The Silmarillion. Men were destined to always battle evil within themselves, desire to dominate - be it people or nature - is ultimately disastrous in every case. And yet, within men, there are nobler people among them. From Earendil and Beren on down through Aragorn and Arwen - a line that will never fail.

Barliman, I can think of one text off hand that shows as much hopelessness as CoH, IMO, while at the same time it also does show hope - or at the very least hope for hope. If you have HoME volume 10 I recommend you look at Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth if you haven't already. This also gives a unique glimpse at just how deeply JRRT's own hopes and doubts in particular, permeated his Middle-earth creation. Another tale so dark in tone as anything from the First Age is "The New Shadow", which you seem to be familiar with.

JRRT was, imo, as talented, creative, brilliant and good-hearted as anyone ever was. This shows through in his stories, and that is what makes it superb. That is why their feeling is so keen, and the complexity so vast.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I hope you decide to read the COH through some day Barliman, just in case you might find something in it.

I have read my copy through three times. Each time my current view is corroborated.

The Silmarillion is filled with dark and terrible despair but there is hope that shines through in the end.

Examples?

I know The Silmarillion is more gloomy in nature than The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but in the latter can be seen the same principals at work in the world as were also in The Silmarillion. Men were destined to always battle evil within themselves, desire to dominate - be it people or nature - is ultimately disastrous in every case. And yet, within men, there are nobler people among them. From Earendil and Beren on down through Aragorn and Arwen - a line that will never fail.

Read the first two lines of my signature, then take a look at the news.

JRRT was, imo, as talented, creative, brilliant and good-hearted as anyone ever was.

No one doubts the goodness of the man. But I think the horrors of the war poisoned his spirit and withered his faith in man's ability to conquer himself, a view that I see as suffusing all his works, especially SIL.

Barley

[Eledhwen]

This is a bit off-topic.
I was surprised to find Glaurung described in my son's book about kinds of dragons. I hadn't thought that he was so well-known as to be listed in a children's book along with Smaug and Norwegian Ridgebacks (from the Harry Potter series).Don't forget the book was written by a dragon geek; so Glaurung would be up there with the biggest and best - and, IMO, should be!

I have a book on British Dragons, by Jacqueline Simpson. There were dozens of them; and written records began in the year 1120 continuing through to 1793.

I think the horrors of the war poisoned [Tolkien's] spirit and withered his faith in man's ability to conquer himself, a view that I see as suffusing all his works, especially SIL.I think that seeing the horrors of WWI, then watching Europe plunge into darkness again within his lifetime (and the agony of Christopher being a pilot in the RAF - a very short life expectancy) gave him plenty of inspiration for 'the long defeat'.

Tolkien's coining of the phrase 'eucatastrophe' indicates that, in stories at least, good would and should prevail over evil.

[Nóm]

I have read my copy through three times. Each time my current view is corroborated.

Sorry Barliman. I mistook "Once I realized this (that nothing would stop the doom placed on them), I stopped reading COH (which is a kind of distilled Silmarillion with dialogue) and SIL. " to mean you had never got around to finishing it.

But as for the examples you ask for I could name Earendil. The existence of the silmarilli and the prophecy that they will be found. Also the survival of the Faithful from the Fall of Numenor. Remember how Ulmo brought dreams to two elven kings and appeared before Tuor? Ulmo essentially says that no matter what the Doom may be on the people there is always a rift in it, there may still be a way to avoid complete darkness. I think this does show that there is always reason to hope, and even though individuals come to ruin Morgoth never did have the ultimate destruction that he wanted. Even from the death of Finwe's first wife something good came. His re-marriage to Indis brought Fingolfin and Finarfin who, along with their descendants, play a great role for good.

Maybe most hopeful of all is that in the Legendarium there is a God, gods, and Istari, even if men do not always know it or believe it. The Children of Iluvatar are supposed to join in the music with the Ainur in the end. That the Gift of Men, though it had become seen as a curse, is that no matter what befalls them in Arda they will eventually be free'd of it.

I'm not argueing the desperate tone of the stories in Sil, I just think they are not without hope.

And sure, I fully agree with you that war must have had an impact for the worst on his view of men.

Have you read the Athrabeth I mentioned? I think you would find it interesting because it deals directly with a mortal woman's total loss of hope and faith in God. It puts forth the notion that just maybe Morgoth was able to destroy Men in a way that made them irredeemable as a race and beyond the reach of Iluvatar. IMO, this is the darkest thing in his writings.

The belief of the woman and her people is that Men had originally a kind of immortality and that Melkor took this from them. However it happened, at the very least it was him who caused Men to fear death rather than see it as a Gift. And this fear of death that men have is (IMO) a root cause of our tendencies to evil and can bring about death even more quickly. It seems tied in with greed. I tend to believe that the Woman in Athrabeth was mistaken. That we were not designed to be immortal within the world, but that our life was shortened. I think that originally Men were ment to be much like the Numenoreans are in their early days. Eventually they grow old and elect to pass away from the World as Aragorn did.

[Illuin]

from Starbrow
"I was surprised to find Glaurung described in my son's book about kinds of dragons. I hadn't thought that he was so well-known as to be listed in a children's book along with Smaug and Norwegian Ridgebacks"



Hi Star,

Ha…that’s funny. I have an expensive, detailed and very lengthy book (for adults though….I’m a Dragon freak) that has prints, paintings, illustrations, and at least a hundred pages of in-depth text which explains much of the history and origins concerning the lore of Dragons (including references to works such as Beowulf). I was also quite surprised to find numerous references to Glaurung, Smaug The Golden, and Ancalagon The Black. The book also mentions they are among “the most famous” of the lore; with Smaug The Golden being the most notorious of them all. It also states that the public’s mental image and perception of Dragons was different before J.R.R. showed up (which is true of Wizards and many other things as well). So yeah, indeed….Tolkien’s work is far reaching, and he has influenced so much in the realm of fantasy that is taken for granted, especially by younger people. :)

[Prince of Cats]

I've just finished reading the Silmarillion through and I get the opposite of Barley's perceptions. The points on Numenor are packed with dread and the follies of men, but that's a (IMO level headed) social commentary I think is very important to present - then and today. Of Beren and Luthien on the other hand was awesome and inspiring concerning men

As for Glaurung ... I got the feeling that he was often doing what pleased himself rather than always following Morgoth's orders.

[Alcuin]

I’m not really in this thread, and I don’t want to interrupt a serious discussion, but…

I was cruising along, looking at the various lead posts in each forum, and I saw this:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/MorgothCats.jpg

And I read, “Does Morgoth sacrifice cats?”

And I thought, “Well, that’s strange. Why would Morgoth sacrifice cats? Then again, why wouldn’t he?”

And then, of course, I reread it because I had to, and it began to make sense.

(Actually, “Prince of Cats” is a very fine, very Tolkien-ish moniker.)

Apologies for the interruption. Carry on!

[Nóm]

Yes, Telvido Prince of Cats - somewhat ridiculous sounding outside of the context of the older tales, isn't it? Is it just me, or is it difficult to associate the word prince with evil? But as for your mistake Alcuin, I'm sure Melko tossed some kitties into the fire. Nothing was beneath him!

[Alcuin]

“Prince of Evil” has a Biblical pedigree. “Prince of Cats” is an intentional echo, I think. “Telvido Prince of Cats” is Tolkien’s precursor of Sauron, if I remember aright.

I don’t think Tolkien liked cats.

We probably should return to the regularly scheduled program: “Did Morgoth sacrifice Glaurung to spite Húrin?” in the context of Children of Húrin. I’m afraid I haven’t had time to complete the text, so I am unable to make any meaningful contribution, and my participation so far has been a distraction.

[Illuin]

by Nóm
I'm sure Melko tossed some kitties into the fire.


Ahhh! That is an area I do not wish to go. It parallels the “Chinese food thing”. I’ll pass. I rescue cats…many cats. Yes; I’ve seen the bumper sticker; “So many cats; so few recipes”. Seeing that; let’s just say that it’s a good thing that I am a man who does not choose to own a gun. People who think like that are no more than Orcs in my opinion. They would be wise to keep their distance.