The enmity between elves and dwarves [Archive]

YayGollum

06-17-2007, 09:14 AM

Greetings. Why do we need a defining event? I was planning on making a list of things that each race did to the other that might have annoyed them, then adding up all of the points, then showing how much these points mattered in the end to easily prove that the sickeningly popular elves did more to cause enmity. No representative of either race's intentions or plans really matters. Yay for attempting to make either race look worse than another, but what actually matters is what each race counted as a slight.

For your one event, you've got a king murdered, elves killed, and stuff plundered as slights against the elves. For slights against Dwarves, we've got what the Dwarves in Nogrod believed and Dwarves killed. For the nasssty elveses, even though they weren't large fans of those particular Dwarves, they got a nice conclusion. The Dwarves who killed their king were killed, they got their stuff back, every Dwarf that came at them was killed, they got a nice feeling of self-righteousness when some Ents popped out of noplace to help them out, they got a great story when Beren made a showing, the Nandor also participated in the Dwarvish slaughter, producing all kinds of happy little feelings of unity, and the silmaril ended up with Luthien, giving them that extra little paradise in Middle Earth for a bit, which was a lot nicer than Thingol hoarding the thing. The Dwarves got no happy conclusions, so were therefore way more understandably peeved with this particular scene.

Other points ---> Of course, calling them Naugrim, stunted people. An insult that was never remedied. Even though they were Outcasts, word reaching other Dwarves about Nargothrond being stolen from the Petty Dwarves, and, worse, the hunting of Petty Dwarves by the nasssty elveses. As Mim also pointed out, the fact that the elves renamed everything. Sure, not such a large deal, but cause for a bit of enmity, whereas Dwarves always leave everyone else alone. Oo! Also, the stuff that made me hate elves in the first place ---> Those nasssty Rivendell racists making fun of Thorin the superly cool and his buddies on their way in. And ---> Those evil Mirkwood types casting evil spells on Dwarves for no good reason, then keeping them locked up for no good reason. :eek:

Thorondor_

06-17-2007, 10:49 AM

For slights against Dwarves, we've got what the Dwarves in Nogrod believed
What the Dwarves of Nogrod chose to believe or not cannot constitute a fault of the elves. To make an analogy, if it was an agent of Melkor that spread those lies about what happened, you would still consider the elves as responsible for those lies. They simply had nothing to do with what the two survivors said. That was completely in the dwarves' hands.
The Dwarves got no happy conclusionsKilling the greatest elven king of their time? Destroying the best defended realm (which in the end had even Dior killed, because the girdle could no longer protect him)? Having Melian leave Middle Earth? I would say their thirst for blood and revenge got more than satisfied. They achieved more than what Morgoth and the sons of Feanor did until then. And Nogrod still stood, without even being attacked.
Even though they were Outcasts, word reaching other Dwarves about Nargothrond being stolen from the Petty DwarvesI am not sure I follow. Nargothrond was built for Finrod with the help of the dwarves of the Blue Mountains.
the hunting of Petty Dwarves by the nasssty elvesesIt was the petty dwarves that first attacked the elves. Given the situation, it is reasonable to believe that should the dwarves themselves have been put in a situation where they were attacked by creatures, who they could not have identified as rational beings, they would have acted just like the elves.
As Mim also pointed out, the fact that the elves renamed everything. Sure, not such a large deal, but cause for a bit of enmity, whereas Dwarves always leave everyone else alone.What do you mean? That the dwarves adopted the original names of all places and people? With no secret language of their own?;) Do you claim that somehow the elves imposed names for use by other races?
Those evil Mirkwood types casting evil spells on Dwarves for no good reason, then keeping them locked up for no good reason. The reason is given in the book itself. They wandered into Thranduil's realm without leave (causing some issues also), and they would not state their purpose.

Snaga

06-17-2007, 11:57 AM

The thing about enmity is not who does something bad to who first, but who is holding onto the grudge? Who is sustaining the ill-will?

I think we should be fair about the issue of the Petty Dwarves. This is not the reason for the enmity. From Quendi and Eldar (HOME IX):this grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-Dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations...
What is clear here is that the dwarves are prepared to listen to reason, and put aside the past.

Let's contrast that with Celeborn, who let's remember is according to Galadriel is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle Earth" who regrets letting the WHOLE FELLOWSHIP into Lorien, because they are in the company of a dwarf, because some other dwarves had been killed by a balrog, which he considers to be their fault. That's really holding onto a grudge - 6000 years he's had to get over it, but he won't.

Thranduil is probably worse. Then he's not the wisest is he?! As Yay says, his welcome to the dwarves was hardly welcoming.

The reason is given in the book itself. They wandered into Thranduil's realm without leave (causing some issues also), and they would not state their purpose.How exactly are the dwarves supposed to ask permission? As soon as they get near to any elves they start using their elven-magic to confuse the dwarves, and run away. Let's remember the dwarves were starving and despairing, and posed no threat, when clearly outnumbered. The elves were clearly full of prejudice, and hostile. The dwarves were in no way to blame.

So the contrast is this: the dwarves will put aside the hunting of their own kind when they hear the facts, vs. the elves will continue fuelling the fires of this dispute for 6000 years, sustaining their irrational prejudice either without listening to reason at all, or being completely unreasonable when they do.

Thorondor_

06-17-2007, 12:13 PM

Let's contrast that with Celeborn, who let's remember is according to Galadriel is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle Earth" who regrets letting the WHOLE FELLOWSHIP into Lorien, because they are in the company of a dwarf, because some other dwarves had been killed by a balrog, which he considers to be their fault. That's really holding onto a grudge - 6000 years he's had to get over it, but he won't.
However, Celeborn makes it clear that he "spoke in the trouble of [his] heart". Moreover, we are talking about a hypothetical grudge :).
The dwarves were in no way to blame.They knew they had to stick to the path, for their own good. If they were to go astray and stumble on the private property of any one, then the right owner (esspecially if a king, who is under obligation to protect his realm and subjects) it is entitled to protect his realm against any possible threat, and detain persons who are suspicious (and who would not state their purpose also).
the dwarves will put aside the hunting of their own kind when they hear the facts
I wouldn't agree. The text you are quoting from leaves room to interpret otherwise (emphasis added):
But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mim, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.

YayGollum

06-17-2007, 01:11 PM

Towards my point about what the Nogrodian (Nogrodish? Nogrodese?)Dwarves believed, the elves still caused the two to report with mayhaps exaggerated information. They get some responsibility.

Towards my point about happy conclusions for the Dwarves ---> The Dwarves that heard about everything that happened would not have had a happy conclusion. "Hm? So those smiths that were hanging out in Doriath got killed, but two escaped? Yeah, I heard about that. They reported that they barely escaped from some crazed elfish king? Old news, man. Ah, do what? A large group of our warriors went off to obtain justice, ane all were killed? Oh, well, Yay us! A grand victory? Do we have many who'll be off to obtain more vengeance? More importantly, who'll be defending us from the always encroaching Orcs?"

Also, was Thingol greatest elven king of the time? I would disagree, but oh well. I doubt that the Dwarves were snickering, "Heh! Finally killed Thingol, though, didn't we? Happier shall be the lives or our hairy little Dwarf cubs, without that elf!" They didn't destroy the best defended realm around, beside the way. And ---> Melian running away was all her fault. I would write that what thirst for blood as well as revenge that they might have had was squelched when those with the stuff were killed. Let us sniff for their relatives, though.

Towards elves stealing Nargothrond ---> What? That happened. Petty Dwarves lived there first. The nasssty elveses merely expanded it.

Towards Dwarves being killed by elves ---> Okay, Yay for excuses, but also, Yay for continually decent reasons to latch onto enmity. Hey, if the Dwarves ran around hunting things that looked a lot like them except for the warped proportions (elves, in this hypothetical situation, elves, which are usually counted as decently intelligent, for some reason :rolleyes:), I'd give the point to you.

Towards those annoying elves renaming everything, I merely meant what I wrote. Not a large point, but room for a bit of enmity, as Mim demonstrated. Poor Dwarves, wandering around trading and things, some human asks if he's from Erebor, and the Dwarf has to quickly search through his brain for what the name means. Of course, whatever the name for the place in his secret language would come up first, but he'd remember The Lonely Mountain being the usual name for it, then grumble a bit as he realized that the human was using the elfish name for the place.

Towards evil elves of Mirkwood messing with the superly cool Thorin and his buddies ---> Nasssty elf reasons for doing things doesn't matter. Merely enmity caused by them. Their evil actions caused some, you would admit, yes?

Thorondor_

06-17-2007, 01:51 PM

the elves still caused the two to report with mayhaps exaggerated information
How?
They didn't destroy the best defended realm around, beside the wayTheir actions caused the girdle of Melian to dissappear;they also plundered Menegroth and killed many warriors. Whatever was left, was taken care of by the feanorians. The dwarves caused all these.
Melian running away was all her fault. I disagree; the main reason she stayed in Middle Earth was Thingol, who the dwarves killed.
Towards elves stealing Nargothrond ---> What? That happened. Petty Dwarves lived there first. I wouldn't mind some quotes showing that Elves removed the petty dwarves by force from Nargothrond. But in the end, it really does not matter; those caves were built not just with the assent of the dwarves, but with their help also.
Hey, if the Dwarves ran around hunting things that looked a lot like them except for the warped proportions (elves, in this hypothetical situation, elves, which are usually counted as decently intelligent, for some reason :rolleyes:), I'd give the point to you.Indeed, the elves are shown as some of the most intelligent and perceptive races. I would like you to show me any reason why the dwarves would have acted any differently. The root of the petty dwarves problem lies also with the dwarves, esspecially with their racial purity trait ;).
Poor Dwarves, wandering around trading and things, some human asks if he's from Erebor, and the Dwarf has to quickly search through his brain for what the name means. Of course, whatever the name for the place in his secret language would come up first, but he'd remember The Lonely Mountain being the usual name for it, then grumble a bit as he realized that the human was using the elfish name for the place.Whatever language the humans choose or not for naming, it has nothing to do with any fault of the elves. This point is irrelevant.
Nasssty elf reasons for doing things doesn't matter. Merely enmity caused by them.I disagree; trespassing is enough of a reason, and such was the case.

YayGollum

06-17-2007, 02:15 PM

By way of killing most of them, of course. Enmity caused by elves, resulting in lies, magnifying enmity.

Well, the Dwarves didn't whisper to the Feanorian types, "Hey! Check that out, dudes! We totally softened those guys up for you! Go on! One round of kin slaying isn't enough!" Anyways, no, Melian running off caused her girdle to slip. There was no self destruct button that some Dwarf pressed on his way out. Sure, plundering and killing probably softened them up, but I figure that they were a bit more annoyed by the Feanorian types, when they actually came along to conquer them. My point was that, at the end of the episode that you brought up, the elves had plenty to be happy about, while the Dwarves had nothing but enmity caused by elves.

Towards Melian ---> Your point, then, is that Melian lacked free will, and the only thing keeping the creepily magical force field up was Thingol's existence? Craziness. An elf might be annoyed at a Dwarf for being a Dwarf and the same race as a Dwarf who killed some old elfish king, but I think that he'd be able to figure that Melian ran off because she felt like it.

Garn! Why quotes? I don't lie. Petty Dwarves totally lived in Nargothrond (or whatever they might have called it before elves showed up) first. Mim was whining about being thrown out, which was why he hated elves. Sure, Dwarves helped out with the expansion, but I see no evidence that they wouldn't hold some enmity. It is reasonable. Business is business, though.

Ah, excuse me, towards the point about elves hunting Dwarves. I believe that Dwarves wouldn't have hunted elves for the reason that I must not have showed off well enough before. ---> Ah, it is obvious that they aren't just beasts? Animal noises and an actual language would sound pretty different. Clothes and tools are good evidence of intelligence. Towards why the elves might have been stupid enough to hunt Dwarves ---> Um, mayhaps it's just because they're so worried about beauty? Beings so ugly to them might not have enough self-respect to be considered sentient? :confused:

Not entirely. The nasssty elveses came up with the names in the first place. Many (not me, though) enjoy uttering them just to sound smart. Mim was one Dwarf who held enmity for changing all of the names. Therefore, not irrelevant, since I found some enmity.

Okay, Thorondor_ person, the Dwarves trespassed. I have no problem with admitting that. I am merely pointing out that the evil action of tossing spells at the Dwarves caused enmity.

Turgon

06-17-2007, 04:49 PM

A good resolution Yay? How could the killing of Thingol possibly have a good resolution? Who is to say what is a good resolution and what is a bad one? Only those involved. For certain the elves were still aggrieved by it, and with good cause. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to put across here, that elven honour was more satisfied? That the elves got a better deal? When it comes to acts of treachery such as this, forever is too short a time to forgive. In an ideal world, people forgive and forget. Arda was not an ideal world. You are left with two choices to forgive and not to forget, or not to forget and not to forgive. Elven enmity here is entirely justified.

Regarding the naming of places by the elves, this is a given. If you are an elf new come to Beleriand, by whatever route you take, eastwards over the sea, or westwards over the mountains, and you find yourself in a newfoundland, of course you will name the places. Mim's complaint is irrelevant, if the dwarves won't give the secrets of their language up, what are you to do? Just not name them? That's crazyness. As for the naming of the dwarves as Naugrim, well in the words of a famous Irish philosopher. 'Say what you see. Say what you see.' Mim's enmity here is without cause. The dwarven obsession with secrecy borders closely on Xenophobia sometimes.

The hunting of petty dwarves? this is something that cannot be entirely be excused, but petty dwarves were named so for a reason, some difference from your average dwarven type perhaps. It is not entirely beyond the bounds of reason that the elves thought that these dwarves were a form of orc or lesser goblin. Given the climate in Beleriand at this time... well. There were certainly a lot of strange dark creatures scuttling around Beleriand. The Rohirrim's hunting of the woses is perhaps much less palatable. Certainly less exusable. Enmity? The dwarves still smouldered at this insult. Who is to blame? Well the elves it seems have something to answer for. Yet were they hunting for sport? Or hunting to keep their realms safe?

Regarding the elven 'occupation' of Nargothrond. I was always of the opinion that it was deserted when Finrod came there, I have certainly never read anything to the contrary. In my mind Nargothrond, like Gondolin, was the place of greater safety Ulmo had in mind when he layed his dreams upon Finrod and Turgon. Another of Mim's petty hatreds.

As to calling the elves of Rivendell racist for singing a few childish songs?

From A Short Rest... I think.

O! where are you going
With beards all a wagging?

This is elven racism? If the dwarves are finding such petty reasons for enmity, then I have to say they are easily offended. Perhaps too easily. It's like the old joke. An elf walks into a dwarf convention, and one of the dwarves looks up at him and says, 'The Star Trek convention's tomorrow, mate.'

The dwarves lost in Mirkwood?

Originally posted by Yay.

Towards evil elves of Mirkwood messing with the superly cool Thorin and his buddies ---> Nasssty elf reasons for doing things doesn't matter. Merely enmity caused by them. Their evil actions caused some, you would admit, yes?

Originally posted by Snaga

How exactly are the dwarves supposed to ask permission? As soon as they get near to any elves they start using their elven-magic to confuse the dwarves, and run away. Let's remember the dwarves were starving and despairing, and posed no threat, when clearly outnumbered. The elves were clearly full of prejudice, and hostile. The dwarves were in no way to blame.

Despite being told a hundred times to stay on the road, despite insulting the elves and ruining what could have been a ripping feast? Despite refusing to answer for their appearance in the woods? Starving were they? Well if Bombur hadn't ate all the pies.The elves treated them quite well regardless. I wonder if a party of elves would have been treated any differently if they had blundered into the middle of secret dwarf realm? Probably not, in fact it would probably have gone worse for them. Anyway in consequence of these actions, Thorin refuses to give Bard his fair share of Smaug's hoard, simply because the lake-men have allied themselves to Thranduil? Regardless of the right or wrongs of either party. Taking your grievances out on an innocent third party, a party who had given you succor in your hour of need? Petty, as were most of Thorin's actions when he got his hand on the gold. Did the wood-elves fall upon the ruined Lake-town for giving refuge to the escaped dwarves? No, they gave them aid. Did the dwarves go running to the aid of Lake Town after they saw Smaug thundering down in that direction? No. Did the send aid after they learnt that Smaug was dead? No. What was there reaction when there former friends turn up at the gate? Jog on. '\/' We won't have any truck with those elven folks. The dwarves are not happless victims of elven hate-crimes.

Originally posted by Snaga

Let's contrast that with Celeborn, who let's remember is according to Galadriel is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle Earth" who regrets letting the WHOLE FELLOWSHIP into Lorien, because they are in the company of a dwarf, because some other dwarves had been killed by a balrog, which he considers to be their fault. That's really holding onto a grudge - 6000 years he's had to get over it, but he won't.

As for Celeborn, let us not forget Celeborn was from Doriath, and mayhaps a kinsman of Thingol. The awakening of the Balrog was obviously a big deal, especially to the elves who remember well the First Age, doubly so for those who lived in Lorien, add the killing of Thingol into the mix and Celeborn has plenty of reason for enmity. Regardless, the Fellowship entered Lorien with little trouble, any caution on the part of the elves of Lorien was well placed. They lived in dark times, and evil followed close behind the company. And let us not forget Celeborn's own words to Gimli.

From The Mirror of Galadriel

'Welcome Gimli son of Gloin! It is long indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras Galadhon. But today we have broken our long law. May it be a sign that though the world is now dark better days are at hand, and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples.' Gimli bowed low.

Not exactly a bad fellow Celeborn, and though he may have briefly regretted letting the company into Lorien, he quickly regrets his regret.

From The Mirror of Galadriel

There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. 'I did not know your plight was so evil,' he said. 'Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you...'

Snaga

06-17-2007, 10:13 PM

Interesting arguments from Thorondor and Turgon. But arguments without substance. Lets take a closer look.

Firstly, Celeborn... it is true that when he is rebuked by Galadriel and told to not be stupid, and that if he was passing by Lorien he would want a look even if it were "an abode of dragons", and that anyway he shouldn't single out Gimli because Gandalf was the guide he changes his mind. So Galadriel points out that Celeborn IS being prejudiced. Of course the quote Turgon gives But today we have broken our long law.exposes that the anti-dwarvism isn't just the words of one but actually the LAW. This makes it much more institutional, and therefore serious. This rather undermines Celeborn's claim that Thorondor gives that this was just him speaking in "the trouble of his heart". The awakening of the Balrog was obviously a big deal, especially to the elves who remember well the First Age, doubly so for those who lived in Lorien, add the killing of Thingol into the mix and Celeborn has plenty of reason for enmity.I think the Balrog was much more serious for the dwarves than for the elves of Lorien. It was called "Durin's Bane" not "Amroth's Bane" or "Celeborn's Bane", remember? But I thank you, since the rest of this statement says, yes, the dwarves have done nothing wrong since Doriath, and the elves were holding on to a 6000 year grudge. I agree - the elves sustained this enmity.

So lets look now at the arguments as regard Mirkwood.Despite being told a hundred times to stay on the road, despite insulting the elves and ruining what could have been a ripping feast? Despite refusing to answer for their appearance in the woods? Starving were they? Well if Bombur hadn't ate all the pies.The elves treated them quite well regardless. I wonder if a party of elves would have been treated any differently if they had blundered into the middle of secret dwarf realm? Probably not, in fact it would probably have gone worse for them. Anyway in consequence of these actions, Thorin refuses to give Bard his fair share of Smaug's hoard, simply because the lake-men have allied themselves to Thranduil? Regardless of the right or wrongs of either party. Taking your grievances out on an innocent third party, a party who had given you succor in your hour of need? Petty, as were most of Thorin's actions when he got his hand on the gold. Did the wood-elves fall upon the ruined Lake-town for giving refuge to the escaped dwarves? No, they gave them aid. Did the dwarves go running to the aid of Lake Town after they saw Smaug thundering down in that direction? No. Did the send aid after they learnt that Smaug was dead? No. What was there reaction when there former friends turn up at the gate? Jog on. '\/' We won't have any truck with those elven folks. The dwarves are not happless victims of elven hate-crimes.Let's deal with the trespassing argument, and that they were supposedly warned about this. Rubbish. Beorn and Gandalf warn them to stay on the path only because they would get lost. In fact Gandalf says:Don't stray off the track! - if you do it is a thousand to one you will never find it again and never get out of Mirkwood; and then I don't suppose I, or anyone else, will ever see you again.Gandalf was very well acquainted with the wood-elves. He clearly didn't think trespassing was a major problem.

The rest of Turgon's accusations are lies. The dwarves do not insult the elves: they are set upon before they can speak a word. The dwarves did not ruin the feast - the nice thing to do would have been to let some passing travellers join in. The elves would rather spoil their own feast than share with the dwarves! The dwarves WERE starving, and Bombur can't be held to account. Since he slept half the journey, he must have eaten less actually! Of course, no one is arguing that the elves were running some kind of concentration camp - yes they fed their captives. But they just shouldn't have imprisoned them in the first place, and consulting The Hobbit we find:So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure.So here is cast-iron proof that the elves mistreated Thorin, because the enmity that they are holding onto for 6000 years.

As for Turgon's statement that dwarves would have done the same or worse if the roles had been reversed, I doubt the judges will overlook the complete lack of evidence or examples to back that up.

Finally, Turgon takes Thorin to task for refusing to give the Lake Men their due when Smaug has fallen because they are in alliance with the elves. I am sure that we can all criticise Thorin here, but lets just remember that that would be cause for resentment between Men and Dwarves, and that's not what we are debating.

In mitigation, Thorin is right because he doesn't deny the claim of the Bardings, he just says that the elves should go home because it has nothing to do with them. What may I ask WERE the elves doing there? Nothing less than trying to snatch the hoard of the dwarves for themselves, by force (since they come with an army) before the rightful owners (who if they think Thorin is dead, is still Dain Ironfoot) can have it. They may have stopped and helped the Lake Men along the way, but Oxfam they are not. If they really want to help the Lake Men, they could have kept out of the issue between Bard and Thorin, and all would have been settled fairly.

chrysophalax

06-17-2007, 11:16 PM

The thing about enmity is not who does something bad to who first, but who is holding onto the grudge? Who is sustaining the ill-will?

Um, ok...is it me, or isn't the issue who started the enmity between the two races? I see nothing whatsoever about who does or does not sustain said enmity in the statement to be debated.

Therefore, here we go...first off, we have Iluvatar telling Aule, "But when the time comes, I will awaken them and they shall be to thee as children; and oft strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." I site this quote from the Silmarillion merely to set the tone, as it were, showing that it was indeed prophesied there would be enmity between Elves and Dwarves.

As to who started it, I think it's pretty darn clear.

From 'Of the Ruin of Doriath'

At that very time great craftsmen of Nogrod were lately come into Doriath; and the King therefore summonig them declared his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should remake the Nauglamir, and in it set the Silmaril. Then the Dwarves looked upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Feanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to thier far homes in the mountains. But they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task....Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck; but the Dwarves in that moment withheld it from him, and demanded that he yield it up to them, saying: 'By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamir, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Hurin the Man of Dor-lomin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.' But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent;...And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words begone unrequited out of Doriath. Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the King, and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood.

As the Nauglamir was bought and paid for by Finrod, the claim that Thingol (Finrod's great-uncle) had no right to it after his death is ridiculous. Hurin did the right thing in giving the Nauglamir into the hands of his family. Thingol had all the right in Arda to do whatever he wanted to with it. The innate greediness of the Dwarves led them to regicide, thereby raising the level of enmity between the races from mere petty stuff like "Wow, are they ugly! Good grief, are they full of themselves!" to full-on war in a heartbeat. Never until this time is there any mention that I can find in the Silmarillion (my only source, sorry) is there anything more than basic distaste going on and enmity is defined as "ill-will leading to hostility".

Also, I see no reason to comment on Celeborn, Thranduil, Thorin, or several other individuals brought up by our learned opponents, since I see no relevance relating to which race first began the strife between the races, not the continuance thereof.

Thorondor_

06-18-2007, 12:27 AM

This makes it much more institutional, and therefore serious.
The question is, is their attitude uncalled for? We know they destroy trees - heck, they most likely prompted the very existence of the ents, for protection of the trees:
They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father. They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed. Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity
And aren't the forests the primary habitat of the elves - esspecially in Lorien? And aren't elves deeply preocupied with the preservation of the land and prevention of further harm? Why then deal with the race of the dwarves, who stand contrary to this? Let us consider another troublesome aspect of the dwarves:
A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.
Now, the elves, especially those of Doriath, got a first class taste of what means to "aggrieve" them, didn't they? And why? Because of greed. In the Silmarillion, it is said that "evil enough came to the profit of Sauron", from the greed that his rings further kindled - even if the dwarves were not subdued to his will. Therefore, why deal with the dwarves, if they represent a constant threat to the habitat of the elves, and even to the security of the elves themselves. Heck, who knows when a guest representative of this warrrior race would wake up "aggrieved" in your own home. They proved they can. The policy of the elves is justified by the very actions of the dwarves; and given that the dwarves show no sign of changes in terms of purpose or general racial traits (greed), then an expiration term of this policy is not called for from a people who has less destructive propensities.
But I thank you, since the rest of this statement says, yes, the dwarves have done nothing wrong since Doriath, and the elves were holding on to a 6000 year grudge.Which part exactly says that??
Gandalf was very well acquainted with the wood-elves. He clearly didn't think trespassing was a major problem.That statement clearly referred to dangers that may be found in Mirkwood, and that people outside Mirkwood would not find them. Also, it is not like he started enumerating possible dangers and somehow forgot to mention the danger of trespassing. But we know that Thorin was aware of the elvenking's desire for gold and silver, and therefore aware of the existence of his realm -in conclusion he knew that the risk of trespassing was all too
real.
But they just shouldn't have imprisoned them in the first place,I disagree; the elves considered themselves not just trespassed, but being attacked by dwarves, when they were feasting. Not a very peaceful move to be seen in a guest, now is it?
As for Turgon's statement that dwarves would have done the same or worse if the roles had been reversed, I doubt the judges will overlook the complete lack of evidence or examples to back that up.Well, as I quoted, when aggrieved, they resolve to violence, even with their own kind. This is far in excess of what we would normally expect from the elves.
They may have stopped and helped the Lake Men along the way, but Oxfam they are not.I disagree:
Probably most of them would have perished in the winter that now hurried after autumn, if help had not been to hand. But help came swiftly; for Bard at once had speedy messengers sent up the river to the Forest to ask the aid of the King of the Elves of the Wood, and these messengers had found a host already on the move, although it was then only the third day after the fall of Smaug.
...
But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake.

Maedhros

06-18-2007, 12:51 AM

Lets see the history of how the relationship of the "enmity" of the dwarves and elves:

From The Hobbit: Chapter 8 Flies and Spiders
It was also the dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin-not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.
To what event is it referring in this part of The Hobbit. Certainly, not the one in the Published Silmarillion by CRRT, but instead, it is based on the Quenta Noldorinwa and the Tale of the Nauglamîr.

From the Quenta Noldorinwa
. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. But the folk of Mîm were few, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew them, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold. And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves. Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, and he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou,' said he, 'thy fee for thy
fair keeping of my wife and kin.' Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Húrin; but Húrin scorned him, and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth; and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world,
since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril. But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cûm-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.

This episode occurs circa 502 FA. At this time, the relations between the races is in a good point. There have been treaties between the two of them and are at a relative peace.
There is a reason that I was interested in not restricting the source materials of this debate, because the story of Thingol and his slaying as told in the Published Silmarillion is not correct.

From the Tale of Years: A note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath in the published Silmarillion

Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, all that my father ever wrote on the subject of the ruin of Doriath has now been set out: from the original story told in the Tale of Turambar (II.113-15) and the Tale of the Nauglafring (II.221 ff.), through the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32-3, with commentary 61-3) and the Quenta
(IV.132-4, with commentary 187-91), together with what little can be leaned from The Tale of Years and a very few later references (see especially pp. 352-3). If these materials are compared with the story told in The Silmarillion it is seen at once that this latter is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings. This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It
seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.

So the facts are:
1. There is a conflict between the dwarves and the Elves concerning the Petty dwarves, that is resolved by treaties between both races. (If someone has a date on this I would be grateful)
2. In 502 FA (First Age), Thingol receive the treasure of Nargothrond from Húrin and Co, sends the dwarves that if they work his treasure, he would handsomely reward them, Thingol scants his promise and there is a battle between the dwarves and elves, in which the elves are triumphant.

The dwarves seek revenge and kill Thingol and destroy Doriath.
What were the dwarves supposed to do? Ask Thingol for forgiveness, for his cheating and murdering of their kin?

Now, the line of reasoning from Team A falls like a house of cards.

- the dwarves consented to Thingol's task to remake the Nauglamir
- at the same time, they already plan to take away the jewels (Nauglamir and Silmaril)
- they attack Thingol, in his own realm, when he is alone and undefended. Now, the text says that they acted when their lust rose to rage; but let us be reasonable about it: would they have stopped and went home if Thingol would have simply denied their request to surrender the jewels? Most definitely: no. They set up their minds from the beginning, and they would have breached the laws of hospitality and contract anyway. The only less violent way they could have achieved their purpose would have been through blackmail and/or kidnapping of the king, none of which gives them any honor.

- the two survivors who got home further aggravated the situation, by distorting the facts and putting all the fault on the elves and none on them

- disregarding the attempts of dissuasion from the dwarves of Belegost, the dwarves of Nogrod still go to war. In their invasion, they even resort to plundering.

In this episode, the intention, planning, carrying out and aggravation lies with the dwarves. As for the elves, we have: the insults of Thingol, which, were most likely just the excuse to moving forward, albeit in a more drastic manner than the possible alternative; and the killing of the thieving dwarves in their retreat, which was lawful, considering their deed.
Too bad that this is wrong. As proven above.

"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

Thorondor_

06-18-2007, 01:19 AM

Too bad that this is wrong. As proven above.
This is a moot point. Tolkien granted his son equal power to his own, to alter, publish, or destroy part or the whole work. What we have in the Silmarillion is authorized by the express will of Tolkien. If we are talking about canonicity, the published Silmarillion takes precedence.

Turgon

06-18-2007, 01:49 AM

Let me briefly clear up this accusation of lies levelled at me by the Honourable Member for Gundabad North - that is to say Mr Snaga.

It was put forward that the dwarves were in no way to blame for what happened in Mirkwood, and to this I answered, rightly in my opinion, that they had been warned well enough before ever they entered. Regardless of Gandalf's and Beorn's worries about what would happen once they were inside, they had clear instructions not to go off the road. If they had followed this advice they would have had no trouble at all.

Actually Snaga, regarding the insult, I was thinking about this.

'What have we done, O King?' said Balin, who was the eldest left. 'Is it a crime to be lost in the forest, to be hungry and thirsty, to be trapped by spiders? Are the spiders your tame beasts or pets, if killing them makes you angry?'

Such a question of course made the king angrier than ever, and he answered: 'It is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using the road my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me know, I will keep you an in prison until you have learned some sense and manners.'

This was an insult to the king, unintentionally perhaps, but I am certainly not lying or trying to hoodwink the judges as you suggest. The dwarves did ruin the feast, rousing the spiders could have indangered a great many of the elves. In your own quote you say that the elves thought Thorin was an enemy. Yet still:

They gave him food and drink, plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when the captured them. The giant spiders were the only living thing they had no mercy upon.

Regarding my statement about Bombur eating all the pies - I retract it. Just thought it might give you a bit of a giggle.

*shrugs*

Where are my lies? I'm a little confused...:confused:

Turgon

06-18-2007, 02:45 AM

I have to agree with Thorondor here, much of the Quenta Noldorinwa is at odds with what is established Tolkien canon. In fact you completely failed to put the following into your third quote, it should go somewhere in the middle of it.

There were very evident problems with the old story.

How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully,in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: 'Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.

In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'

I am afraid that, I too, am going to insist on 'canon' on this point, if we start pulling at different threads from Tolkien's tapesty, the whole thing is going to unravel. Not only does this entire debate fall down like a pack of cards, but so does most of Tolkien's Legendarium. Does the treaty even take place in the Noldorinwa? I thought that belonged to a later stage of development?

YayGollum

06-18-2007, 08:49 AM

Argh. For one, who annoyed the other first isn't what we're looking for. The topic is looking for who was most to blame. Even if one side started it first, a greater quantity and magnitude of enmity generated by the other side would equal the win. For another, hey, why are we even allowing information from all kinds of different sources, if it's just going to be disregarded? oh well.

Turgon person, the point that I was attempting to make, when it came to the results of that whole Nauglamir episode, was that, even if both sides ended up with some enmity, the Dwarves ended up with way more.

Towards elves renaming things and the hunting of Petty Dwarves, reasons for doing such things don't matter. The point was that enmity was produced by the elves. Even if elves renaming things is reasonable, you would admit that some enmity was produced. Even if the more admirable types of Dwarves weren't such large fans of the Petty types, why would enmity not fester?

Towards elves stealing Nargothrond, Argh. Now I have to hunt a quote. "the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun;" Good enough? Even if they were merely the Petty sort of Dwarf, enmity existed.

Towards the evil elves in Rivendell, hey, we aren't debating about how sensitive the Dwarves are or should be. We are debating about how much enmity was caused. Okay, so the Dwarves were overly sensitive, in this case. Enmity was still caused by elves.

What else is there? Oh. Lots of writing about stuff not directly related to who caused the most enmity. Attempting to make one race look better or worse, pointing out all kinds of reasons to make one race look more sympathetic. Craziness. :rolleyes:

Snaga

06-18-2007, 10:10 AM

Where are my lies? I'm a little confused...:confused:I apologise to the Honorable Member for Gondolin, who I am sure would never lie. But I believe he has misspoken, and is in danger of misleading the House.:p

Firstly, on the question of leaving the path, it is undoubtedly true they were warned to stay on the path. I repeat though, the text of said warning from Gandalf: Don't stray off the track! - if you do it is a thousand to one you will never find it again and never get out of Mirkwood; and then I don't suppose I, or anyone else, will ever see you again.Again, I draw attention to the underlined section: this clearly shows that stumbling across the wood-elves was not what he was warning about. He meant they would get lost, and that no one would find them - including wood-elves. Indeed, the words of the Elven-King to the dwarves suggest that even using the path is trespassing, because it was made by the elves, and runs through his realm. So clearly, trespassing was not part of the warning.

On "ruining the feast" I note you shift the point of your argument. Before, merely showing up (and being a group of hungry dwarves) ruined the feast. Now you say that rousing the spiders was the issue. Of course, the episode with the spiders come AFTER the dwarves have tried to beg for food. That is not why they were refused, although the elven king uses it as a pretext for their arrest, and hence Balin's sarcasm.

I repeat: the elves could have been welcoming and none of this would ever have happened. But instead they treat the dwarves as enemies from the start. The quote about not being gentle to Thorin because "he was a dwarf and thought he was an enemy" says it all: they thought he was an enemy, yes. Why? Because he was a dwarf - there is no other explanation. "Trespassing" is too minor an offense to warrant the term "enemy". Certainly, the dwarves had not attacked anyone. This only leaves the blanket hostility to dwarves that we see in Lorien.

Thorondor_

06-18-2007, 12:06 PM

For another, hey, why are we even allowing information from all kinds of different sources, if it's just going to be disregarded?
If contradicting information is presented, then a scale of value is in order; otherwise this debate has no point.
Turgon person, the point that I was attempting to make, when it came to the results of that whole Nauglamir episode, was that, even if both sides ended up with some enmity, the Dwarves ended up with way more.Well, you disregard all that we presented and keep repeating your point. Hopefully, judges won't take your personal opinions as facts.
The point was that enmity was produced by the elves. Can you show one instance where what you presented actually occurs, demonstrating some fault of the elves??
Good enough? Even if they were merely the Petty sort of Dwarf, enmity existed.This is a moot point. As I said twice already, Finrod received help from the dwarves in building Nargothrond. We are not talking about how the petty dwarves felt or what they accused, they hated anyone anyway, but about what was the position of the dwarves - and they helped. Therefore, no presumption of enmity here.
"Trespassing" is too minor an offense to warrant the term "enemy". Certainly, the dwarves had not attacked anyone.
Trespassing is not a minor thing, especially in Mirkwood, where there are multiple reasons to be on a heightened state of alert, especially because the shadow of the Necromancer has fallen there since 1050.

And let us bring another argument to the table:
All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.
It's not too nice to fight for Sauron, now is it?

Plus, all the other dwarves that were sitting on their tales at home, what were they thinking, with this "free-rider" attempt? "Let's leave the elves to do the hard work while we hack another forest and indulge in more greed?" It is rather suspicious that most of the dwarves did not care enough about the result of the battle to join in. They seem to not have cared that by their lack of involvement they were actually aiding the enemy (if they still considered Sauron their enemy) - because with a lesser force it is likely that the battle is longer, with more losses, and with less chances of victory. Way to go ;).

Snaga

06-18-2007, 07:56 PM

Trespassing is not a minor thing, especially in Mirkwood, where there are multiple reasons to be on a heightened state of alert, especially because the shadow of the Necromancer has fallen there since 1050.I didn't say that. I said it didn't warrant the term "enemy". To suggest that the elves would presume that a dwarf stumbling through their realm is an agent of the Necromancer is not credible. They just considered all dwarves to be enemies.

It's not too nice to fight for Sauron, now is it?

Plus, all the other dwarves that were sitting on their tales at home, what were they thinking, with this "free-rider" attempt? "Let's leave the elves to do the hard work while we hack another forest and indulge in more greed?" It is rather suspicious that most of the dwarves did not care enough about the result of the battle to join in. They seem to not have cared that by their lack of involvement they were actually aiding the enemy (if they still considered Sauron their enemy) - because with a lesser force it is likely that the battle is longer, with more losses, and with less chances of victory. Way to go .Do the elves treat all Men as enemies? Substantially more reason to be suspicious of Men, who fight for Sauron in great numbers. Instead, no, Men are trading partners and recipients of aid. How can this be? Because in the case of Men, the elves don't treat all Men as the same. Unfortunately such discernment is not available to the dwarves. They are enemies!

But at least some dwarves came to the aid of the West in the case you cite. When the dwarves fight the orcs in the Misty Mountains, and sack each and every orc-hold, do the elves help at all? Nope. So much for the fine and wise elves.

Lets be clear too, about the track record of the dwarves. When elves and men are in trouble, they show up. Take the war in Eriador: what do we find in Unfinished Tales (Galadriel and Celeborn):In black anger he [Sauron] turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung on a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned on the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelemed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves of Khazad-dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself...So here the dwarves save Elrond. Ought that not count for something? Now, where might we find Celeborn and Galadriel in all this? Well, interestingly, they had dwelt in Eregion together. But when they were deposed by Celebrimbor et al at Sauron's behest Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-Dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor.Aha! Celeborn's prejudice surfaces again! He'd rather leave his family than enter a dwarf-realm. What next? Sauron forges the One and his designs are revealed. The Three are hidden etc... Sauron assails Eregion, where Celeborn remains. As Sauron approachesWhen news of this reached Gil-galad he sent a force out under Elrond Half-Elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs...So add all this up: the dwarves saved the neck of not just Elrond but Celeborn as well, but even this is not good enough to change the mind of grudge-bearer supreme, Celeborn!

Snaga

06-18-2007, 08:21 PM

This is a moot point. Tolkien granted his son equal power to his own, to alter, publish, or destroy part or the whole work. What we have in the Silmarillion is authorized by the express will of Tolkien. If we are talking about canonicity, the published Silmarillion takes precedence. I am afraid that, I too, am going to insist on 'canon' on this point, if we start pulling at different threads from Tolkien's tapesty, the whole thing is going to unravel. Not only does this entire debate fall down like a pack of cards, but so does most of Tolkien's Legendarium. Does the treaty even take place in the Noldorinwa? I thought that belonged to a later stage of development? Who says it takes precedence? Only convention and familiarity. Where is the definition of 'canon'? What better definition of 'canon' could there be than what the author, JRRT himself wrote? Maedhros has himself shown that the published Silmarillion chapter 'Of the Ruin of Doriath' has no authority from the writings of JRRT. (This of course is not the case of the matter of the treaty between the dwarves and elves).

Christopher Tolkien says (HoME XI The War of the Jewels):It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.So whatever Christopher Tolkien did and published over 30 years ago, clearly he thinks now that it was a mistake.

The choice in the debate, and I suppose one for the judges to decide, is whether to go with a text not written by JRR Tolkien, but by his son in conjunction with an editor - which Christopher Tolkien now considers a mistake with 'no authority'; or to go with what JRR Tolkien actually wrote, which is what Christopher Tolkien is now endorsing.

Turgon

06-18-2007, 09:14 PM

Turgon person, the point that I was attempting to make, when it came to the results of that whole Nauglamir episode, was that, even if both sides ended up with some enmity, the Dwarves ended up with way more.

But the question is not who ended up with more, but who was more to blame.

On "ruining the feast" I note you shift the point of your argument. Before, merely showing up (and being a group of hungry dwarves) ruined the feast. Now you say that rousing the spiders was the issue. Of course, the episode with the spiders come AFTER the dwarves have tried to beg for food. That is not why they were refused, although the elven king uses it as a pretext for their arrest, and hence Balin's sarcasm.

The feasting incident does occur before the spiders you are right. The spiders had been roused before the majority of the arrests however. I don't think I'm misleading anybody. Yes I did shift my arguement a little, but I did a reread of the chapter in question to pull out the insult quote, and it struck me that the spiders could well have caused considerable danger to any wood elves still in the forest. Considering the feasting that had been going on it was a possibility. Why would the elf king need a pretext for an arrest? He was a King. It's good to be the King.

I repeat: the elves could have been welcoming and none of this would ever have happened. But instead they treat the dwarves as enemies from the start. The quote about not being gentle to Thorin because "he was a dwarf and thought he was an enemy" says it all: they thought he was an enemy, yes. Why? Because he was a dwarf - there is no other explanation. "Trespassing" is too minor an offense to warrant the term "enemy". Certainly, the dwarves had not attacked anyone. This only leaves the blanket hostility to dwarves that we see in Lorien.

Blanket hostility? Where? Gimli was treated well in Lorien, his passage into the wood may not have been what he might have expected, but the laws that were in place had to be abided by. Was the law the cause of any enmity between elf and dwarf? No. In fact when Gimli left Lorien, Galadriel gave him a gift she denied even to the mighty Feanor, namely several locks of her lovely, lovely hair. It's quite clear in later passages that Gimli rather enjoyed his stay in the Golden Wood. There is no blanket hostility Snaga. Celeborn had reason to dislike the dwarves, which we have already touched on, he got over it for the greater good. Celeborn is one elf amongst many. You single him out, because you think he is a weakest link and skim over the elves who show nothing but respect to the dwarves. Enmity existed on both sides, it is not something specific to the elves. The dwarves are shown no enmity at the Council of Elrond, Gimli is treated well in Lorien, he is even granted passage in an elf-ship with Legolas.

This stuff about the Wars in Eriador is straying from the point, I realize that it is in answer to Thorondor, but what has it to do with the enmity between the elves and dwarves? I'm not disputing the bravery of the dwarves, nor their contribution to the cause of the Free Peoples.

Thorondor_

06-18-2007, 09:48 PM

I said it didn't warrant the term "enemy".My point was that the elves had for a good deal of time reason to treat all incidents with greater seriousness. Esspecially those happening at night, and when the persons in question are not cooperative. In such a case, their labeling was justified, especially if they considered themselves under attack.
Because in the case of Men, the elves don't treat all Men as the same. Unfortunately such discernment is not available to the dwarves.Unlike the dwarves, Men proved that you can let them in your house and they won't slit your throat for some joolz. And they can do this even if all their race was once subdued by Melkor, something the dwarves didn't have the pleasure of. The dwarves may choose to serve evil even if the Silmarillion makes it clear they are particulary resistant to corruption.
When the dwarves fight the orcs in the Misty Mountains, and sack each and every orc-hold, do the elves help at all?You cannot honestly compare the magnitude and overall importance of whatever wars they were playing in the mountains with the battle of the Last Alliance. In the mountains, they were fighting for their own t-bone; but they chose to disregard the greater good at a highly crucial moment. It says something about them, now doesn't it?
So add all this up: the dwarves saved the neck of not just Elrond but Celeborn as well, but even this is not good enough to change the mind of grudge-bearer supreme, Celeborn!It seems that team B has a thing for texts which contradict more reliable, more authorised sources. For one, it is also mentioned in UT, in another version which you conveniently failed to mention, that both of them passed through Moria towards Lorien. Is there a resolution to all this UT stuff? Yes (emphasis added):
He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.
Who says it takes precedence? Tolkien, by making his son his literary executor and giving him full official power over all his work.
So whatever Christopher Tolkien did and published over 30 years ago, clearly he thinks now that it was a mistake. It is only natural that Chris later thought he could do a better job. In this aspect, he only resembles his father, who intended all the time to improve his work.

Ithrynluin

06-18-2007, 10:35 PM

I apologize for the nuisance, you guys, but before you proceed any further, could you please comment on my post in the organizational thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?p=481988&posted=1#post481988)?

Thanks, and hopefully we'll get back to the debate in no time. :)

Snaga

06-19-2007, 08:49 PM

Unlike the dwarves, Men proved that you can let them in your house and they won't slit your throat for some joolz. And they can do this even if all their race was once subdued by Melkor, something the dwarves didn't have the pleasure of. The dwarves may choose to serve evil even if the Silmarillion makes it clear they are particulary resistant to corruption.I think you should read the story of Uldor the Accursed, from the Silmarillion (or any other source!;) ) - its clearly the case that Men have betrayed the elves, and with even less reason. The point of how evil enters into the hearts of a race is a bit irrelevant. The whole of the elves did not need to be subdued before the Kinslaying could occur... not even the whole of the Noldor!

You cannot honestly compare the magnitude and overall importance of whatever wars they were playing in the mountains with the battle of the Last Alliance. In the mountains, they were fighting for their own t-bone; but they chose to disregard the greater good at a highly crucial moment. It says something about them, now doesn't it?I'm sure that the dwarves felt entirely differently about this. In any case the special hatred between dwarves and orcs dates from the saving of Elrond and Celeborn's neck by Durin (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales):Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lorinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria were shut, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.Of course, regardless of your suggestion, we know Durin's folk DID fight with the Last Alliance; and I can't find any evidence that suggests any bitterness towards dwarves as a result of their conduct at this time. If you do have any evidence, I'd love to see it!

We should of course bear in mind the strategic nature of the what happens in the Misty Mountains. I refer you to the Tale of the Years, Appendix B, RotK, but I won't quote verbatim. in TA2460 Sauron returns in increased strength to Dol Guldur, and only 20 years later he begins to fill Moria with his creatures. Orcs make stronghold throughout the Misty Mountains. Not long after TA 2509, Celeborns daughter Celebrian is an early victim - she takes a poisoned orc arrow. But in following years Gondor, Eriador and the Rohirrim all suffer from the attacks of the orcs - sometimes greviously. How does this episode end? It ends when the dwarves systematically, and unaided sack the orc-holds. The slaying of Thror may have been the catalyst, but this was without doubt a mighty deed. Imagine if this had never happened? Would the White Council have been able to force Sauron from Dol Guldur? Would the Quest of Erebor have succeeded? Would the Shire have been a safe haven for the Ring? I suggest not - but this is of course supposition. But my point is, the dwarves were worthy of far more respect than they get.

Now finally, and I hate to get into another textual debate, you try to use this quote He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.in order to refute my source in Unfinished Tales. I think the answer is quite easy: firstly Nargothrond and Gondolin are west of the BLUE Mountains - so these are the mountains they passed over together, in order to get to Eregion where they did indeed dwell together. Secondly, I don't believe that Galadriel's statement means they never parted at any point during those long years. Thirdly, Tolkien wrote Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn after the publication of Lord of the Rings, as an explanation of what was in Lord of the Rings, not to contradict it.

That's another lengthy post, which I will summarise by saying: the dwarves are certainly not worse than Men, and achieve many things of great worth to the West, even saving Elrond and Celeborn, and yet the prejudice of the elves lingers on.

What would it take for the dwarves to redeem themselves in the eyes of the dwarves?!:confused:

Thorondor_

06-19-2007, 11:54 PM

I think you should read the story of Uldor the Accursed, from the Silmarillion (or any other source!;) ) - its clearly the case that Men have betrayed the elves, and with even less reason.
I believe this is a false comparison, since you are dealing with someone who already was "under the dominion of Morgoth" - which was not the case with the dwarves.
But in following years Gondor, Eriador and the Rohirrim all suffer from the attacks of the orcs - sometimes greviously. How does this episode end?It ends when the dwarves systematically, and unaided sack the orc-holds.I must be missing something. Orcs and easterlings invade Calenardhon in 2510, but they are defeated in the same year, with no dwarven help. If you are referring to the attack of 2758, those were corsairs attacking, not orcs, and they are defeated by gondorians, first in the south, then in Rohan, the next year, before the war of the dwarves and orcs in the Misty Mountains. Why are you misleading?
I think the answer is quite easy: firstly Nargothrond and Gondolin are west of the BLUE Mountains - so these are the mountains they passed over together, in order to get to Eregion where they did indeed dwell together.No; Galadriel alone passed over the mountains where she met Celeborn. True, Tolkien later made other versions, but they hold less weight than the LotR story.
Secondly, I don't believe that Galadriel's statement means they never parted at any point during those long years.Any proof in that direction, not contradicted by a more trusted source?
Thirdly, Tolkien wrote Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn after the publication of Lord of the Rings, as an explanation of what was in Lord of the Rings, not to contradict it.He wrote many versions, some contradicting, to this and other stories. As said previously, they are less relevant than the LotR story.
I can't find any evidence that suggests any bitterness towards dwarves as a result of their conduct at this time. If you do have any evidence, I'd love to see it!The fact itself that most of the dwarves are taking a rain check on one of the most important battles of all times (and some of them even fight for Sauron) is a cause of enmity per se. We don't need written testimonies on behalf of the elves to know what they felt about it. It is in the realm of common sense. That the elves may choose to let this one slide and not build a hate culture, it is only for their credit; but the fact in itself is a cause of enmity.

I believe it is also relevant to our debate to mention that the appendices mention dwarves killing Fram as a possible ending for the slayer of Scatha. Again, for some jewels and because they felt aggrieved. If this is true, it would be one great way to show appreciation for someone who killed one of their greatest foes. It seems that time and again, dwarves have a rather short perspective on things.

Maedhros

06-20-2007, 01:17 AM

This is a moot point. Tolkien granted his son equal power to his own, to alter, publish, or destroy part or the whole work. What we have in the Silmarillion is authorized by the express will of Tolkien. If we are talking about canonicity, the published Silmarillion takes precedence.
This is really simple. But by your own line of thought it falls down. In The Hobbit, we have a version of the story between the altercation between the elves and dwarves. This is a work published by JRRT himself. This is canon.
In the Published Silmarillion, the version that we have an account of events that do not match those in The Hobbit.
But that is not the worst part in it. CRRT changed, the whole aspect of the interactions of the characters.
The basic Plot that was written by JRRT is the following:
1. Thingol receives the gold from Húrin and Co.
2. Thingol summons the dwarves to him to work his treasure with a promise of reward.
3. Thingol scants his promise and there is a battle between the elves and dwarves when most of the dwarven smiths die.

In other words, Thigol is the single biggest cause of enmity between both races because he backtraked, flip-floped with his word.

In versions wrote by JRRT, which CRRT used to publish The Silmarillion, he tried to the utmost of his ability to be as faithful to his father writtings as he could.
Where is the treasure of raw gold and silver that JRRT stated The Hobbit? Oops. The Silmarili and the Nauglamír, are both very important and singular items in the legendarium. They should have been mentioned in The Hobbit, but no they aren't.
Also, there is something very curious. That specific part of the The Silmarillion is where CRRT has regrets, to the point to put them in writting. Notice that there are no notes about his regrets from the Fall of Gondolin, Eärendil, Ainulindalë, but only from that.

I am afraid that, I too, am going to insist on 'canon' on this point, if we start pulling at different threads from Tolkien's tapesty, the whole thing is going to unravel. Not only does this entire debate fall down like a pack of cards, but so does most of Tolkien's Legendarium. Does the treaty even take place in the Noldorinwa? I thought that belonged to a later stage of development?
Is The Hobbit canon enough for you. The storie told in it is different from the one that CRRT created.

It seems that team B has a thing for texts which contradict more reliable, more authorised sources.
You mean like team A that chooses the The Published Silmarillion over The Hobbit.

Thorondor_

06-20-2007, 01:41 AM

You somehow try to present the Hobbit as contradicting the Silmarillion by presenting only one version of the story as some objective truth. That is not the case. The version about of the dwarves is just that, one of the versions. By no means is it given any special status; at most, it is as reliable as the version of the elves. Seeing that dwarves are characterised time and again as secretive, it may be just as possible that the dwarves involved in the Doriath episode simply were simply secretive to the other dwarves, leaving to surface only some general story about gold and silver. On the other hand, Laws and customs of the eldar, HoME X, characterise the elves as being "not easily deceived by their own kind" so how come no other story ever surfaced, no doubt mentioned anywhere? Obviously, when it comes down to this, we have reasons to believe the elves, and not the dwarves, who are so keen on keeping things under the blanket.

YayGollum

06-20-2007, 11:08 AM

Towards the Nauglamir episode, Whoops, for ignoring some points of yours. Okay, I have no problem with admitting the elves obtained some causes for enmity. I see no reason to attempt to refute that, since it is obvious that the Dwarves ended up with more enmity caused by elves. I wrote up the results of the episode. Sure, it is my opinion that the Dwarves ended up with more to complain about. Did you show how I was wrong? Sure, I can't bring up a quote that displays a scale of what race ended up with more enmity. The Tolkien dude didn't feel like writing that. sorry. Yay for reading the facts and sensibly attaching them to this subject for ourselves, though? The elves end up with a dead king but get to kill every Dwarf having to do with it, along with those who took offense at those deaths, and an unpaid for Nauglamir. It was known to them that there were plenty of Dwarves who were sensible enough to not wish to go to war over the episode. And then there was the entertaining bits about Beren, the Nandor, and the Ents, that I already mentioned. The Dwarves left behind in Nogrod ended up with a lack of craftsmen and warriors, how long did it take for word to reach them of what happened to all of their relatives? And, of course, no good came out of the story for them. Enmity caused by elves.

Thorondor_ person, you asked me to show one instance where what I present actually occurs that demonstrates elves at fault. Um, Argh? Why always quotes? I already showed you the one for where Nargothrond was taken away from Petty Dwarves. The elves definitely decided to do that. Dwarves showed up later to help out with expanding the place. They didn't walk in with the invading elves. Again, the Tolkien dude doesn't provide a quote for me to copy down that informs us that Dwarves obtained feelings of enmity, but how is it not a sensible solution? Just because Dwarves helped out with expanding the place? One guy with an Outcast of a brother can very easily be hired by a landlord who recently evicted the brother from his apartment. Helping someone out doesn't mean that you can't feel enmity towards the guy, and enmity is reasonable in this case.

Another instance ---> Well, all of the points that I have made before, why not? No, I can't provide quotes like, "And the Dwarves became filled with all kinds of achingly just feelings of enmity, entirely due to the evil actions of elves, those dudes who so muchly enjoy producing such feelings. Beside the way, while the elves might have felt some towards the Dwarves, it wasn't nearly as much." but I am doing a great job of showing that the elves produced more of such things in the Dwarves than the Dwarves did for them.

1. The elves were more to blame for the Doriath episode, because, whatever thoughts might have been running through anyone's brains before any action went down, Thingol made some Dwarves angry, lots of great Dwarvish craftsmen were killed, arguments between Nogrod and Belegost strained their relationship, lots of warriors were killed, everyone back home had to wait for a while to find out how their relatives got killed, and the they ended up with nothing to show for the episode. The Dwarves killed a king, only because he provoked them. The Dwarves plundered and killed others, but only because plundering's what you do in a war against enemies, and killing's how you win and obtain the justice you're looking for.

2. Nargothrond was stolen.

3. Petty Dwarves were hunted.

4. Um, names were changed. Those words still stuck in their throats.

5. The Dwarves had a language of their own, made by their god, just for them. They explore, they bump into some grotesque and gangly creatures who attempt to muscle in on their superly sacred gift. They adapt and are forced to be way more secretive than they used to be. This gives them a bad reputation, in later years.

6. Check out the heyday of Dwarvish and elfish involvement. That whole hanging out in Moria bit. After that place started to go downhill, what happened? Dwarves contentedly go back to their own homes, do their own things, but elves find little places to hide and are rarely seen again. Poor those Dwarvish craftsmen who were planning all kinds of extra joint business ventures. Everyone would admit that their collaberations were great. The Dwarvish cities were open. Why did not even one elf show up? Oh, too snooty? What? Calling us evil for remaining vigilant at home while battles not so important to our leaders are going on? Craziness. We're bad for being warlike at one time, then we're bad for being peaceful at another time? Do you know how many dragons we've saved you from, up north? Also, our natures spring towards defense more often than offense. Yes, you guys love your tales of super heroics. Have fun with that. Forgive us for enjoying life at home. But then, you guys, who are so unobservant that you thought we were animals, when we first met, should be forgiven for your constant lack of observational skills.

7. In Mirkwood, elves still tossed evilly magical spells at them for no good reason. Okay, so you figure that it was a good reason. Doesn't matter. They still caused the enmity.

I might have missed some. Whoops.

Towards the Turgon person's point about what the question of the debate is ---> Who ended up with more enmity versus who was more to blame? I'd write that the second question includes the first. The elves are more to blame because they caused the enmity in the Dwarves. Way more enmity than any that might have been produced in them by any Dwarf.

Snaga

06-20-2007, 07:53 PM

I believe this is a false comparison, since you are dealing with someone who already was "under the dominion of Morgoth" - which was not the case with the dwarves. I think you are missing the point, whether by accident or deliberately. The point is that elves do not act with the same enmity towards Men as they do towards Dwarves, even though there is a GREATER propensity to evil amongst Men. In fact, the point you make works against you: Men may be under the direct dominion of Morgoth, when this is rare or impossible with Dwarves. Men are more likely to betray the Elves than dwarves. But the elves treat the dwarves with more hostility. They are keeping the enmity alive.
I believe it is also relevant to our debate to mention that the appendices mention dwarves killing Fram as a possible ending for the slayer of Scatha. Again, for some jewels and because they felt aggrieved. If this is true, it would be one great way to show appreciation for someone who killed one of their greatest foes. It seems that time and again, dwarves have a rather short perspective on things.I wanted to raise this myself, because it is entirely instructive. Here is another case where there is an argument over treasure. The dwarves wanted back the wealth that Scatha had taken from them. Fram insults them and won't give them anything, and the dwarves act as dwarves will... there is a battle and death. Now, this is not wonderful behaviour... it brings to mind the attitude of Feanorians to anyone who claimed the Silmarils, no? However, here's a thing. Is there enmity between Dwarves and Men lasting for millenia, as a result? No. The dwarves enjoy very close friendship with the Men of Dale at Erebor, who we know to be closely related to the eothain. This is at most a few centuries later. Clearly, dwarves ARE able to get over a grudge or an insult. It is not they who sustain enmity: this is an elvish trait.

I must be missing something. Orcs and easterlings invade Calenardhon in 2510, but they are defeated in the same year, with no dwarven help. If you are referring to the attack of 2758, those were corsairs attacking, not orcs, and they are defeated by gondorians, first in the south, then in Rohan, the next year, before the war of the dwarves and orcs in the Misty Mountains. Why are you misleading?Yes, you are missing something. You are missing the point. The point is that from 2480 and until 2799 the orcs in the Misty Mountains are a menace to the West. When the dwarves defeat the orcs, they are not. The prowess of the dwarves makes a big difference to the land around. They do this unaided. It should be deserving of thanks and respect.

That was one deed of the dwarves that should have diminuished the enmity, the second age aid given by Durin to the elves is another. I admire your tenacity in trying to strike down Unfinished Tales but you are mistaken if you think this source is contradictory to Lord of the Rings. You say:No; Galadriel alone passed over the mountains where she met Celeborn. True, Tolkien later made other versions, but they hold less weight than the LotR story.This is just wrong. From Appendix B, The Second Age, Return of the King: In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most off these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of Barad-Dur many of the Sindar passed eastwards, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.Therefore it is perfectly consistent to suggest that the mountains that they passed over were the Blue Mountains. Indeed, this is explicitly stated in the The Road Goes Ever On where it is said that Galadrielpassed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.You also want to dismiss the words of Tolkien in UT based on interpreting a statement that they lived "together" as meaning they could never have been seperated for a short while. That's absurd. I think to draw that conclusion you would need a stronger statement along the lines of "we have never been parted". There is no inconsistency between Lord of the Rings and Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, except in your mind. It clearly wasn't inconsistent in Tolkien's mind - or he would not have written the text I have quoted after Lord of the Rings.

He wrote many versions, some contradicting, to this and other stories. As said previously, they are less relevant than the LotR story.Now, Thorondor, you have really not done your homework. There are precisely two texts that deal with the battle in Eregion. One is short on detail, the other (that I have quoted) is significantly more in depth. Both agree that elves from Eregion go through Moria, fleeing Sauron, and join the realm of Lorien. The short version implies (but doesn't say clearly) Celeborn goes with them - so you would expect his gratitude for their help - but we know he still resents them. In the lengthier version that I have quoted from is clear that Celeborn refuses to enter Moria.

In some ways, it does not surprise me that you would wish to strike this text down, because there is therein a killer quote, one that tells us precisely how Celeborn feels about the dwarves:There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been - not far from Nenuial; but they transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dum. Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle at Sarn Athrad. The dwarves of Belegost were dismayed at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dum. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.Absolutely! Celeborn is prejudiced against the Dwarves for 6000 years, even those who were entirely innocent. Even when they save his neck, and his people from Sauron in the Second Age. Regardless that the Durin's Folk are courageous and consistent in the fight against Sauron.

Turgon

06-20-2007, 08:39 PM

However, here's a thing. Is there enmity between Dwarves and Men lasting for millenia, as a result? No. The dwarves enjoy very close friendship with the Men of Dale at Erebor, who we know to be closely related to the eothain. This is at most a few centuries later. Clearly, dwarves ARE able to get over a grudge or an insult. It is not they who sustain enmity: this is an elvish trait.

As do the elves of Eregion with the dwarves of Khazad-dum. This is not an 'elvish trait' it is a trait that all the races of Middle-earth share at one time or another.

Yes, you are missing something. You are missing the point. The point is that from 2480 and until 2799 the orcs in the Misty Mountains are a menace to the West. When the dwarves defeat the orcs, they are not. The prowess of the dwarves makes a big difference to the land around. They do this unaided. It should be deserving of thanks and respect.

A battle that was fought for the most part due to a dwarven grudge spark by the slaying of Thror.

There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been - not far from Nenuial; but they transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dum. Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle at Sarn Athrad. The dwarves of Belegost were dismayed at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dum. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.

Absolutely! Celeborn is prejudiced against the Dwarves for 6000 years, even those who were entirely innocent. Even when they save his neck, and his people from Sauron in the Second Age. Regardless that the Durin's Folk are courageous and consistent in the fight against Sauron.

And Celeborn tells Gimli he regrets the words spoken to him. Not only that but Galadriel (another elf?) gives Gimli several locks of her hair, a gift which she denied even to Feanor. One the one hand you blame Celeborn for tarring the dwarves of Moria with the same brush as the dwarves who sacked Doriath, yet on the other you yourself tar the entire elven race with this 'Celeborn' brush you keep pulling out of the jar.

'Those were happier days, when there was still close friendship at times between folk of different race, even between dwarves and elves.'
'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.
'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.
'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'And I will not give judgement now.'

The elves were not alone in their enmity, there were two sides to this story, as is made plain by Gandalf's words.

Thorondor_

06-20-2007, 11:35 PM

It was known to them that there were plenty of Dwarves who were sensible enough to not wish to go to war over the episode.
Actually it was known that the dwarves would respond with violence to those who aggrieve them, as I already quoted.
The Dwarves left behind in Nogrod ended up with a lack of craftsmen and warriors, how long did it take for word to reach them of what happened to all of their relatives?Same with the elves; killed in their own home, innocent - while the dwarves were out for revenge, in utter disregard of even the advice of their own folk.
They didn't walk in with the invading elves. Besides the other arguments I already made, which you still fail to address, it would seem highly unlikely that Finrod, of all elves, would resort to forcing out petty dwarves. It would also seem reasonable that Thingol did know of what was the situation of that territory. I certainly doubt he would send Finrod to make a new stronghold in a place that would likely cause enmity with the dwarves with whom he has been already been colaborating. And given his special relation with the dwarves, he surely would have objected should Finrod have endangered it (which seems highly unlikely of him).The Dwarves killed a king, only because he provoked them. Which, as already mentioned, was in turn caused also by the dwarves.
Petty Dwarves were hunted.Please read what your own team has already said on this subject.
Why did not even one elf show up? Off the top of my head - try Eol.
They still caused the enmity. The elves considered themselves attacked; given the circumstances I already mentioned, their attitude was justified.
I think you are missing the point, whether by accident or deliberately. The point is that elves do not act with the same enmity towards Men as they do towards Dwarves, even though there is a GREATER propensity to evil amongst Men. In fact, the point you make works against you: Men may be under the direct dominion of Morgoth, when this is rare or impossible with Dwarves. Men are more likely to betray the Elves than dwarves. But the elves treat the dwarves with more hostility. They are keeping the enmity alive.
I am not missing the point. Men, from at least the Three Houses, proved their worth time and again, even if all are fallen. Dwarves, even if resistant to corruption, can prove they can work for evil purposes, or even directly for Sauron. It is not only what the initial conditions are, but how they are put to use. Some surpass their condition in a positive sense, the others cough*dwarves*cough in a negative sense.
Clearly, dwarves ARE able to get over a grudge or an insult.What grudge? They already killed the man. I am not sure what standard of dwarven loftiness you are applying. The point is that they should repent, or show some signs of changing this most regrettable shortness of perspective. It doesn't look like it.
Yes, you are missing something. You are missing the point. The point is that from 2480 and until 2799 the orcs in the Misty Mountains are a menace to the West. When the dwarves defeat the orcs, they are not. Judging by the clues you gave in your previous post, it seems to me you are switching arguments on the fly; regardless of that, the dwarves did such a good job, that begining from 2800 the orcs from the North attack Rohan up untill 2864, during which they kill king Walda. The reason is that they stopped short of Moria and after killing Azog they went home. Yeah, the dwarves did a really good job in eliminating this threat of the Misty Mountains.
This is just wrong. From Appendix B, The Second Age, Return of the King:I stand by my point, that LotR story takes precedence over anything else. Perhaps Hammond and Scull, two experts on Tolkien, can better explain this.
There is no part of the history of Middle-Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earliest conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lorien; this is explicitly stated in an unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in the FotR (the passage I quoted). In all probability was in this conception a Nandorin Elf, that is one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the great journey from Cuivienen.

On the other hand, in app. B to LotR appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age (the passage(s) you quoted).
Later? Why later? Simple. By the time the readers already had FotR and TTT, Tolkien was still working on the appendices. That some inconsistencies appeared with the already published text is rather understandable; the letters to/from Rayner Unwin of 1955 show "an intense" pressure" to finnish the appendices. Further editions, even the 50 years anniversary one, continue to make corrections so as to assure coherence. Obviously, when it comes down to it, the published story (concerning which Tolkien stated in letter #131 that "hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered, and the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered") takes precedence over an appendix written under pressure.
There are precisely two texts that deal with the battle in Eregion. It is informative that you present us some of the back stories (not all of them, as mentioned previously, just the ones that suit your point). However, you need to prove their authority over more canonical text, which I believe I showed you fail to.

Snaga

06-21-2007, 12:17 AM

Thorondor, since these texts don't contradict the published work there is no need to show they take precedence. What they show is the author's intent. As for arguing that the Appendices are not authoritative, you are just having a laugh, surely! (I note, that noone thinks they need to correct that statement in Appendix B - apart from you!)

On your point about the death of Walda - it is fair to say that orcs who had been driven out of the Misty Mountains tried to take refuge in the White Mountains. Where eventually they were defeated. I think it is preposterous to say that because some orcs survived somewhere, that that negates the efforts of the dwarves. By the same token, does the fact that some orcs survived the Last Alliance to kill Isildur negate the efforts of Gil-Galad and Elendil (and Durin)? More laughs, I suppose?

Your arguments about Men are futile. The qualification that "Men, from at least from the Three Houses" show they can be trusted, presumably should apply similarly that "Dwarves, from at least Durin's folk" can be trusted. There is a clear inclination to a double-standard.

Turgon, you at least make a little more sense, but I must also take issue with you. I think Gandalf's quote is interesting, because he is of course not commenting on Doriath, but what may have transpired since the downfall of Eregion. Of course, his refusal to comment seems diplomatic, and doesn't mean there is no right answer! Luckily (for this debate) he doesn't say "oh, it was the elves to blame" or "I blame the dwarves!":D

Now, of course I pick on Celeborn because he is the clearest example. It is my contention that he benefitted from the dwarves of Moria saving either his life or his people, but he enacts laws against them. Galadriel goes along with it, but is said to be sympathetic to the dwarves. Not all elves deal with dwarves equally badly. Elrond is very wise in his dealings - no complaints here. My argument is not "all elves are always evil to dwarves" - clearly not. But some elves, Thranduil and Celeborn to the fore, do treat dwarves poorly and so keep the enmity alive. Now, I will happily accept that Celeborn does seem, at long last, to turn over a new leaf - better late than never.

On your point about the dwarves motivation for war with the orcs - of course they wanted revenge for Thror's death. What is wrong with that?:confused: If you are trying to equate the desire for vengeance for an immediate wrong, with holding a grudge for thousands of years, I think that is mistaken. I think the need for vengence when wronged may well be a dwarven characteristic (though surely not limited to them) - Fram surely is another example. But I can't see that there is a lot of evidence that they hold onto grudges in the way that it appears that (some) elves do.

[By the way, I am sure in there you accused ME of tarring all elves with the same brush! Moi?! Lucky my character isn't the subject of a debate. We orcs always lose on that score!:D;)]

Turgon

06-21-2007, 01:45 AM

[By the way, I am sure in there you accused ME of tarring all elves with the same brush! Moi?! Lucky my character isn't the subject of a debate. We orcs always lose on that score!]

Ah well... it was worth a pop...:D

On your point about the dwarves motivation for war with the orcs - of course they wanted revenge for Thror's death. What is wrong with that? If you are trying to equate the desire for vengeance for an immediate wrong, with holding a grudge for thousands of years, I think that is mistaken. I think the need for vengence when wronged may well be a dwarven characteristic (though surely not limited to them) - Fram surely is another example. But I can't see that there is a lot of evidence that they hold onto grudges in the way that it appears that (some) elves do.

No, no, you mistake my intent. My point is that the dwarves were not doing this out of any altruistic thoughts of cleansing the mountains for the good of all, but persuing a grudge all of their own. Nothing wrong with that as you say. It just wanted to point it out.

Turgon, you at least make a little more sense, but I must also take issue with you. I think Gandalf's quote is interesting, because he is of course not commenting on Doriath, but what may have transpired since the downfall of Eregion. Of course, his refusal to comment seems diplomatic, and doesn't mean there is no right answer! Luckily (for this debate) he doesn't say "oh, it was the elves to blame" or "I blame the dwarves!"

Yet in regards to Celeborn and the Sindar this whole issue is tied up with what happened in Doriath. I think it is pertinent to the debate. As for Gandalf's diplomacy, that again was not my point. My point was for Gandalf to have heard both side of the story, both sides must at one time or another *****ed to him about it. It seems to be that your team is of the opinion that dwarves are poor little victims of elven enmity when it is very apparent that the enmity exists on both sides.

Now, of course I pick on Celeborn because he is the clearest example. It is my contention that he benefitted from the dwarves of Moria saving either his life or his people, but he enacts laws against them. Galadriel goes along with it, but is said to be sympathetic to the dwarves. Not all elves deal with dwarves equally badly. Elrond is very wise in his dealings - no complaints here. My argument is not "all elves are always evil to dwarves" - clearly not. But some elves, Thranduil and Celeborn to the fore, do treat dwarves poorly and so keep the enmity alive. Now, I will happily accept that Celeborn does seem, at long last, to turn over a new leaf - better late than never.

My argument is not "all elves are always evil to dwarves" - clearly not.

Clearly...:) Though I don't remember us conceding the trespassing issue. Thranduil arrested a bunch of dwarves for trespassing in his realm without leave, at a time when Sauron's shadow had grown overly long in the Mirkwood. Surely he had the right? Thorin's attitude to Thranduil, was not exactly helpful was it?

You mentioned Celeborn as a particular exponent of elven enmity; so let us now move on to Mim the Dwarf, and his own particular brand enmity. Firstly let me deal again with the naming of places and things. Turin asks Mim quite reasonably, what the name of his mysterious roots are, to which Mim replies.

'They have no name, save in the dwarf-tongue and that we do not teach,' He said.

So I'll state again, the elves, both those new come to Beleriand, and those who had dwelt there an age. Had no choice but give places their own names in their own tongue. It is natural for the elves, the speakers, to do such when the dwarves are not forthcoming. Yay's claim that this is one of the reason's for the enmity between elf and dwarf I do not see. If it did awake enmity on the dwarven side, it was unnreasonable enmity. An enmity that wasn't justified. An enmity that was completely of the dwarves own making, of their own doing, and completely caused by themselves.

Now let us turn to Mim's accusations that the Noldor stole Nargothrond.

'...and the petty-dwarves loved none but themselves. If they hated and feared the Orcs, they hated also the Eldar, and the exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Nargothrond was first found and its delving begun by the Petty-dwarves, long before Finrod came over the Sea.

But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mim and his two sons; and Mim was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten.

Note the emphasis, the petty-dwarves say that their lands and homes were stolen by the Noldor. Yet their race had dwindled and died out, Nargothrond was almost certainly empty when Finrod came upon it, the petty-dwarf population not being able to sustain such a settlement. Even Mim's own words 'Before the proud ones came from over the sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkizdin. Suggest to me that the halls were deserted when Finrod took possession of them. And no amount of dwarf-gold in the world will convince me that Finrod Felagund would have kicked out its former occupants, dwarf or not. In fact Finrod's residence in Nargothrond is practically sanctioned by Ulmo himself. It is quite apparent that this is the refuge Ulmo has in mind when sends his dream to Finrod. Given Ulmo's love of all the free-peoples of Middle-earth, I just don't see him letting a settlement of petty-dwarves being over-run. As for enmity, it is certain that the dwarves held no enmity over this deed as Thorondor as pointed out, they were willing participents in the building of Nargothrond.

And of course:

But Mim was aware of the presense of Orcs in the lands about Amon Rudh, and the hatred that he bore to Beleg led him now in his darkened heart to an evil resolve. One day in the waning of the year he told the men in Bar-en-Danwedh that we was going with his son Ibun to search for roots for their winter store; but his true purpose was to seek out the servents of Morgoth, and to lead them to Turin's hiding place.'

Much worse than anything Celeborn could have done - a friend betrayed for hatred sake - that is taking enmity to a new level.

Thorondor_

06-21-2007, 01:56 AM

Thorondor, since these texts don't contradict the published work there is no need to show they take precedence.
I disagree. Neither in the Silmarillion nor in Appendix B is there any mention of Galadriel and Celeborn in Eregion, and consequently no mention of separation between Galadriel and Celeborn in getting out of Eregion; they were, as said previously, together during the long defeat. And this UT story really relies on the separation between them, having, for example, at the end of it, Galadriel coming to Imladris to reunite herself with Celeborn.
I think it is preposterous to say that because some orcs survived somewhere, that that negates the efforts of the dwarves. No, it doesn't negate it, I didn't say that, it just puts it into perspective. The latest formulation of your approach was:

"The point is that from 2480 and until 2799 the orcs in the Misty Mountains are a menace to the West. When the dwarves defeat the orcs, they are not."

If from the immediate year after 2799 the orcs from the north can mount a 64 year attack on Rohan, then they clearly continued to be a threat to the west.
There is a clear inclination to a double-standard.There is no double standard. The Men of the three houses did not attack elves in their homes, after receiving the trust of the elves. And if other Men fought for evil forces, it is understandable by the fact that all their race is far weaker and all of it was once subject to Melkor and most of them did not make it out of that thraldom; none of this was not the case with the dwarves. I regret to repeat these points (but I intend for this to be the last time, unless further need somehow arises), but this is a difference which you cannot overlook when you judge the attitude of the elves.
Much worse than anything Celeborn could have done - a friend betrayed for hatred sake.
Indeed; and who created the conditions for Mim to behave like this? Other dwarves, by their pursuit of racial purity. The fact that the petty dwarves decayed so much, (almost to the level of animals) and that they became a threat to another race, the elves (by attacking them), is a problem caused by the attitude of the dwarves toward members of their own kin:The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious.
Mim himself is part of these "banished dwarves".
But I can't see that there is a lot of evidence that they hold onto grudges in the way that it appears that (some) elves do.I believe your whole approach to the grudge issue is wrong, since it apparently implies only a subjective aspect. As I showed on the first page, the attitude of the elves of Lorien towards the dwarves was justified. Also, back to the whole double-standard issue. The elves also estranged themselves from the Men that betrayed them:
From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only those of the Three Houses of the Edain.
However, in this case too the attitude of the elves was objectively justified. Why? Men too continuously give them reasons to be wary due to:

- their own nature
I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of Mordor], but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good . So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless – while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors – like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going round doing damage.
- the power and works of Melkor
In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, as be most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight.
Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
So the elves apply no double standard to the dwarves, and, in general or particular, their attitudes are justified.

Snaga

06-21-2007, 08:50 AM

Thorondor, in your last two posts you've quoted the History of Middle Earth, Letters and even LotR: A Reader Companion in support of your argument! Amazing that these are ok, but Unfinished Tales and even Appendix B of Lord of the Rings itself are not!

Quoth the pot: "Kettle, thou art black!":rolleyes::D

YayGollum

06-22-2007, 09:38 AM

Here you go. I sat down and reviewed a few things. Inform me if I missed anything important.

The Dwarves were more to blame for the enmity between them and the elves.

Versus

The elves were more to blame for the enmity between them and the Dwarves.

sorry to bring the issue up again, but why shouldn't hunting Petty Dwarves count as enmity that elves were to blame for between them and Dwarves?, sure, other Dwarves put the issue aside, so that equals enmity generated by elves as well as, Dwarves being good guys. Even though they get called Petty Dwarves all of the time, they are still one race, the elves definitely caused enmity in the Petty Dwarves for hunting them, taking Nargothrond, and changing the names. So that last point isn't so great. I'll stick with it. Someone mentioned that because the Petty Dwarves were more accustomed to skulking about than the other types of Dwarves, they are responsible for being hunted by elves. Ah, isn't that just craziness? It wasn't the cause of the hunting. It's an excuse for it. There were others, but none should matter. The point is that the elves caused this enmity, not the Dwarves.

Should I drop the thing about evil elves in Rivendell poking fun at Dwarves? It's another point in my team's favor, I still believe. It caused enmity. You could see that the Dwarves didn't appreciate it or ask for it. Only the evil little elveses were to blame for coming up with those cutting insults. *sobs*

Knocking Dwarves unconscious in Mirkwood caused enmity and wasn't a provoked action. It looks like anyone who stepped into the area that the elves were using was instantly struck unconscious. Mayhaps it was a private party and any sneaky young elf attempting to crash it would have also dropped? The nature of the spell wasn't given. You could write that anyone walking into the area would have earned enmity from these elves, since they'd be seen as rude and uninvited guests, I guess. The Dwarves can be blamed for causing some enmity, in this case, then. But nowhere nearly as much as the elves caused. It's ---> "What? Someone not on the list?" versus, once they woke up, "Ah, do what? What just happened? Where am I? Why am I covered in bruises, and why are my clothes full of gathered underbrush? Okay, what's the last thing I remember? Ah, yes! We found that sickening elfish gathering. Argh, what demented god created something so ugly? Anyways, I planned on introducing myself and explaining my plight while valiantly refraining from scarfing down food, even though I was starving. Couldn't, though. Evil elves, apparently!" You obtain the idea, if it wasn't clear the first time you read the book. Sure, their treatment afterwards might have been overbearingly decent, but that doesn't negate enmity that they generated at one time.

Towards the Thorondor_ person's points about Ents being created because of Dwarves and how elves are way more plant-friendly than Dwarves and therefore have a great reason to be annoyed by the fact that Dwarves have their own interests, I don't remember reading about the elves ever holding any enmity towards Dwarves for those things. First off, they liked Ents, so that's a plus for them that's usually just attributed to Yavannah. Second off, did elves create magical heat from nothingness to fuel their fires for use in all sorts of activities where fire is useful? Well, not that I have read of. I'm sure that they chopped a bit of wood, too. The fact that Dwarves prefer to cut at rocks most of the time should be seen as polite by elves, then, yes? Otherwise, they are the same, pretty much, in this respect.

Towards the idea of enmity being caused by Dwarves when some worked for Sauron that one time, as was already mentioned, nothing was written to inform us that the elves even cared. We are told that few fought on either side, so mayhaps no elf even noticed any Dwarves fighting for Sauron. But also ---> Nothing was written to show us if any Dwarves were to blame for any enmity between elves and Dwarves, because of that particular recruitment. None of the ones working for Sauron were of the Durin type of Dwarf. Dwarves had wars with each other. Mayhaps all of the Dwarves on Sauron's side were just there because they didn't like the Durin type of Dwarf and saw a good chance to wipe several off the face of Middle Earth. We don't know. What we (and elves, at least according to their own legends) do know is that they are incapable of being corrupted by evil. Shouldn't all elves therefore take some seconds to think about Dwarvish actions anytime that they are questionable? They know their brains work differently. They know that they can't be evil. They are supposed to be superly wise, at least in one way. What's up with all of the bad press, yo?

As for that Fram thing, which I must not have noticed before, that looks like a beef between humans and Dwarves. Of course, we could jump towards the idea that any bad press caused by Dwarves could reasonably generate feelings of enmity in elves. Why not? Shall I begin writing up a list of all of the horrible things that elves and Dwarves have ever done, then, or would the fact that Tolkien spent a lot more time on the subject of elves be seen as unfair? *sarcastic sniff*

Towards the Turgon person's idea that Dwarves made enmity out of nothingness, when it came to elves changing names, um, but the elves did change the names, and at least one Dwarf didn't like it. Check out the topic of the debate. The elves were to blame for some enmity. Sure, I understand why the elves felt the need to come up with names. Great reasons for doing things don't always prevent