Consistency issue with On Fairy-Stories

[_postman]

Hello

I have the 1988 issue of On Fairy-Stories and have noticed something of a contradiction (if I am reading it correctly, which I may well not be).

It is here: Tolkien writes:


behind the fantasy real wills and powers exist, independent of the minds and purposes of men (my emphasis) (p18)


and


the realization [sic], independent of the conceiving mind, of imagined wonder” (my emphasis) (p18);


Yet, we read:


It is…essential to a genuine fairy-story…that it should be presented as ‘true’” (my emphasis) (p18),


and


Faërie begins; Man becomes a sub-creator (my emphasis) (p25)


My question is how can man become a sub-creator if fantasy, or Faërie, is independent of the conceiving mind? How can man become a creator/sub-creator of anything without concieving it/being conscious of it/with consciousness being independent?

Thanks.

Postman

[YayGollum]

The first quote makes it easiest to explain. Behind the fantasy (behind what is written) there's fact. Humans might not get all of the facts correctly and stick in some original and incorrect stuff. Humans are called sub-creators because they didn't, according to this, come up with everything independently. Mayhaps co-creators would work better?

[_postman]

Hello YayGollum

Thanks for your post.

Your interpretation, if I have understood it correctly, is that there are powers in the world which man is subject to (or only co-party to) and this would explain why man is only a sub-creator and Tolkien's comment about 'behind the fantasy real wills and powers exist'.

Tolkien however makes it clear that we 'enter' a different world, that is 'Faeirie' and the degree of our enchantment depends on the skill of the artist (or writer) who needs to present this Fairie world as 'true'. This would suggest that our world, this one, is real and exists, but we can create other worlds - hence Middle-earth. Hence the term sub-creator.

My query was that we as writers, artists, or simply participants in this other world, Fairie, 007, Jack-the-Ripper England or whatever, cannot 'enter' unconsciously, that we are in control of our entrance and being in that world.

Cheers for your post.

Postman

[Sidhe]

Another point, that might explain it is that I've heard Tolkien was trying to bring back a mythology that he thought those in his country had lost. I think in that context those quotes make sense, although I admit I have no idea of context any more than that which is quoted, so just an idle thought I suppose?

And also as it says at the start of the Films:

"It betrayed Isildur, to his death. And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth"

Galadriel.

... And myth becomes BS.

How sure are we that that the tales of men are the truth or close to it or as accurate as it might be when the nature of men and thus the selective nature of history are involved?

Anyway some thoughts, probably missing the real context?