The Significance of '9'

[Xenith]

Hi All.

I was just reading through some of FOTR a second time yesterday and got to thinking about the significance of the number 9.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? What do you think the significance was if any in its relation to the book/books?

There are Nine Nazgul, there are Nine Fellowship members.

Nine obviously meant something but what?


:)

[bunnywhippit]

Nine was always quite a powerful number in ye olde days, if i remember correctly. Usually i think of 7 as being important, but there are quite a lot of things that resonate with that 9 significance. Aren't there 9 ranks of angels? And my mind is ringing of Shakespearean times when everything was ranked - flowers, birds, colours etc etc etc and i think they were ranked in 9 levels of importance. Why this was done, i can't quite remember... :( Some sort of religious tone to it, i imagine.

[Xenith]

Hmm that sounds interesting. I hope more ppl post their thoughts about it because it is kind of interesting to know.

Numbers played a very important part in the book/books. 3 rings for the elven kings, 7 for the dwarf lords, 9 for mortal men and then the One Ring making a total of 20 in all.

Perhaps I am just speculating but its really interesting :)

[Eonwe]

remember also, that Sauron had his ring finger cut off (9) and Frodo had his finger bit off by Gollum (9) 9 Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom. Those 9 were busy HAHA

[Foe-Hammer]

9 Planets in the solar system?

[Lindir]

As for the Fellowship, their number was chosen to equal that of the nine riders.
But I don´t think 9 was a randomly chosen number by Tolkien, it has been thought to have magical powers. And it is a weird number. You know what 9 x 9 is? 81. And what is 8+1? 9. An other exampe, and then you can do the rest for yourselves. 9 x 5=45. 4+5=9. If you try it with other numbers it doesn´t work.

[Legolam]

I remember doing Macbeth in Higher English a while ago, and our teacher said that 3 used to be a really powerful number (3 witches and all that) and that 9 is 3x3 so he reasoned that 9 would be the most powerful number.

Just a thought ...

[Kit Baggins]

Yeah. My English Lit teacher said when we were doing Macbeth that 3 was associated with evil, something like 666.

~Kit :p

[ReadWryt]

I still like the idea that Sauron made the numbers of rings as he had so that he could eventually where all the rings on his fingers and toes, there being 20 all together. There is just something too silly about imagining big old Sauron rolling on the floor laughing maniacally as he looks at his hands and feet.:D

[cjesun]

as one has said beofre me-- I feel as if the nine must signify the nine cardinal sins-- as the 9 Nazguls- Remember-- Tolkien was Catholic and he admits that the religous imagery is there apurpose... this seems the most plausible to me....


Chris Jesun

[A Ranger]

6 represent imperfection, but i believe that 12 represent perfection, but that really has nothing to do with 9

[A Ranger]

not bad Harad, not bad at all

[Elanor2]

Before this goes too much on the Catholic side, there are 7 Capital sins, not 9.
As for the mathematics, all multiples of 3, when you add the individual numbers, you get another multiple of 3. It applies also to 9 because it is 3x3.

I have no idea why Tolkien chose 9, but I think it just sounded good! It makes a nice progression 3-7-9. I think that Tolkien wanted to use 3 and 7, because he had already in his mind the three houses of Elves, the seven houses of dwarves, etc. And then he got 9 for the men because he did not want a number over 10, or an even number (does not go well with the other ones that are odd), but had to be more that 7 to make the progression upwards.
So, the answer is 9. I would have done the same.

There is not significance linking the number 9 with men in any story that I read, so Tolkien should have picked it at random and never bothered to explain why (probably because it was just a hunch).

my2cents, Elanor2

[FrodetteBaggins]

"9 for mortal men doomed to die"

[Moonbeams]

Nine is a very important number in numerology. Three is a number that represents perfection, it's a number of understanding, it represents past, present, future, it represents three forms of god, etc.. and nine is the number that is 3 x 3, therefore it is the number of ultimate perfection.
I also read somewhere that if you ask a person to say a first number that comes to mind, the most often numbers that come to mind are three, seven, and nine.

[EverEve]

i usually think of 4...but thats just me. i think that the nine might have been a random number, but the fact that he used it so much makes me think there may have been some purpose for it.

[syongstar]

three is a magic number to elves and 9 is 3 times 3.If one see's 6 as evil then turn it upside down(opposite)and it's 9

[Legolam]

I always thought that 3, 7 and 9 were the magical numbers in ye olde days ie in all the myths and legends. I can't think of any more off hand other than those that people have already mentioned, but prime numbers rings a bell as being a reason.

The more I think about this, the more I think Prof T meant something by the numbers, even if it was just to signify magic and superstition

:)

[Legolam]

I thought I'd just do a general search on the Net for stuff, and came up with this for the numbers 3,7 and 9:


The Wordsworth Dictionary of Phrase and Fable points out that Pythagoras called three the perfect number, basically because it expressed all - beginning, middle, and end.

The holy trinity in Christianity

The ancient Greek and Romans had the three Graces, Furies, Sirens

The vikings had the three Norns

Three represents the triad of family; male, female, and child; beginning, middle, and end; birth, life, and death.

The 3 Fates - Clotho held the spool, Lachesis pulled the thread, Atropos snipped.

7 is a main astrological number, with 7 original planets, 7 days of the week (worked out by lunar phases),

Seven is often used as a number of wisdom. From the Old Testament, Proverbs 9:1:
"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars"

The Jews have 7 as a number of completeness and perfection

Seven deadly sins

Noah had seven days to prepare before the flood. He was commanded to take seven pair of clean beasts and birds.
"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and the female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and the female."

With ten as complete, nine comes into prominence as almost complete. Troy was besieged for 9 days and fell on the tenth. Odysseus wandered for 9 years and arrived home on the tenth.

Bahai religion - Nine, as the highest single-digit number, symbolizes completeness


I just copied those off various sites on the Internet, so I guess some of them contradict each other!

[Lantarion]

I'm quite interested in numerology (not as the actual science, it's just what I call my fascination with numbers), and I have actually come up with a sort of "Rule" for numbers. It is only my own view, and it works only for most events and myths (I've posted it before, but this version may have more insite):

1) The First, the most powerful. The ruler of all. (God, the Ring)
2) Co-operation, brotherhood. (Adam+Eve, the eyes)
3) Basic good will and aid, morals etc. (which can be twisted.) (Elven Rings, Silmarils, 1)+2))
4) Strength, loyalty. (Four hobbits off to Rivendell)
5) Eagerness, will to learn. (Men in Beleriand)
6) Evil, corrupted good. (2x3, 666)
7) Skill, expertise. (Dwarf Rings)
8) Shield, hidden strength.
9) Lore, skill; but eagerness to fight for what one believes is right; steadfastness; good, but corruptible. (Men, Nazgûl, Fellowship)
10) Captain, lesser lord; power, either good or bad. (10 Commandments)

I haven't researched these numbers very thoroughly, and these examples are off the top of my head. But this is how I view numbers. I don't know why, really; their shape, their usage and their amount have all been factors in my choices.

[Legolam]

Cool! :cool:

Are those your own, or someone else's?

[JanitorofAngmar]

9 inches!

[JanitorofAngmar]

Perfect timing!

[the only one]

HI! respect the number 9, is a multiple of 3, the number that represents the perfection, the complete thing i mean the past, the present and the future; so that´s 3 times the number three.

9 also represents perseverance, hability, power, good but corrupted, the quality of fight to get your goal, characteristics that have the Nazgul and Fellowship.

[Lantarion]

They most certainly are my very own, thank you Legolam.
I have devised many suh 'number tables', but this is the most recent. I am still formulating ideas, and when I am more learned in the lore of numbers and of their influence on literature and myth, I will create yet another.

[Diabless]

"cloud nine"

[Elanor2]

Funny that many people think that 3, 7 and 9 are traditional magical numbers...

My theory on that is very psychological. I think that we give these numbers a magical meaning just because they are more "difficult" for our mind to understand than others.

In general, odd numbers are more difficult than even numbers. This is just because dividing or multipliying by 2 (or multiples) is quite easy. Try to divide a cake by 2, 4, 6, 8, and that's easy. Try by an odd number and you get into trouble... Even is easier for our mind than odd.

Also, since we have a 10-based numerical system, 5 is also easier than the other ones, because is half or 10. It is always easy to divide or multiply by 5. Even our coins or bills are usually by 1, 2, 5 and multiples, because we live in a 10-based numerical system and it is easier.

So, if I want to think of a "difficult" number, my mind goes to 3, 7, 11 and eventually 9 (3x3). So it is not surprising that we think of them when asked for a number or that we attribute them "magical" properties. This is just my theory, of course.

Regards. Elanor2

P.S. 11 would have been another nice number for Tolkien to choose for the Nazgul, and it follows the progression 3-7-11 better than 3-7-9. But he probably wanted to keep things simpler (under 10). After all, who whats to keep tracking 100 Nazguls !! :)

[Lantarion]

Hmm, good theory! I think that may be true, actually. Well, my "table" only shows my view of the 'magical' idea behind the numbers, so it doesn't contradict your statement. Good thinking, and welcome! :)

[DreamingDragon]

ok...this is my hubby's theory on the rings...

the Nazgul have 9+Sauron's Ring is 10

then there are 7 for the dwarf lords and three for the Elven Kings under the sky....10

I think the Fellowship of 9 was because Sauron's ring was missing and only the Nazgul had their nine...not balanced...in fact, if anything, an innocent (Frodo) having Sauron's ring tipped the balance in favor of peace just a tiny bit...

think about it...talk amongst yourselves....

[Luthien]

Maybe are 7 for the dwarves because when Aule created them, he made 7 and then hide them till the first borned come to middle earth. Also they were 3 races of elves that went to Valinor (Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri).

And the nine... I don't know yet:) .

[SupremeWizard]

I remember i read in the book somewhere that there were 9 walkers to match for the 9 nazgul

[Lantarion]

That's right, Tar-Minyatur(Elros). :) And 9 is a good number for a secretive company, going in secret and with haste. Anything less, like 3 or 6, might not suffice for the task the Fellowship was meant to perform.

[Bill the Pony]

This question was sparked from the Glorfindel/Pippin thread. Why did Elrond insist on 9 walkers? He could have sent everybody AND Glorfindel. It seems to me that that would not change too much in secrecy, and Glorfindel might be useful along the way.
So why is 9 against 9 so much better than 10 against 9?

[TulKas Astaldo]

Nine evil Rings of the Men = 9

Three Rings of the Elves + Seven Rings of the Dwarves = 9

By the way, does anybody get why the Nazgul remained in the service of Sauron after he lost the Ring? Obviously they had a stronger bond than just their nine Rings, unless they simply didn't want to give them up for fear of dying, and they wouldn't be accepted among Men...

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by TulKas Astaldo
Nine evil Rings of the Men = 9
Three Rings of the Elves + Seven Rings of the Dwarves = 9

:confused: Confused


By the way, does anybody get why the Nazgul remained in the service of Sauron after he lost the Ring? Obviously they had a stronger bond than just their nine Rings, unless they simply didn't want to give them up for fear of dying, and they wouldn't be accepted among Men...
I heard on this forum (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=47437&highlight=sauron+nine+rings#post47437) that Sauron was holding their rings, and that's how they stayed in his service.

[Wood Elf]

I know why nine is so important, our Engl. teacher told us today.
Nine is a number representing the end, and so, the nine members of the Company were set out to 'end' the power of the ring by destroying it.

[DreamingDragon]

TulKas Astaldo...

9 ring of men=9 Nazgul
7 dwarf rings+3 elf rings = 10 rings...... not nine

[Legolam]

Just for Ponti, I've dug up this thread for some new members to have a shot at!