JeffF.
01-15-2002, 01:10 AM
The Battle of Five Armies as written in the book and shown in the Atlas of Middle Earth doesn't make tactical sense to me.
First I need to explain, I'm a recently retired career soldier and a military historian. Medieval military history is one of my areas of study.
The mountain as described with two of its arms nearly encompassing the ruins of the city of Dale the scale of the mountain is too large for the battle as described. The map in the Atlas of Middle Earth is probably correct and shows several miles between the two arms and thus that distance would separate the Elves from the Men and Dwarves. Both those wings would also be separated by several miles from the entrance that Thorin and his companions were holding. The numbers we have: 1,000 elvish spearmen in addition to unspecified number of elvish bowmen, 500 dwarves, unspecified number of men under Bard, Thorin and his twelve. If ever you have seen a military parade you can see how small this number is when talking of massed ranks in formation. In a medieval battlefield these numbers are relatively small and no commander would separate his wings by miles (there is no point in a battle without long ranged weapons). Also the second orc attack is described as passing over the mountain itself, but such a mountain, miles long would require hours if not days to traverse. If the wings were separated by the distance shown in the battle map (of the ME Atlas) the dwarves/men would not have mixed with the elves and the sally by Thorin and his twelve would have been unnoticed by the separated wings.
It seems to me that the Elves, men and Dwarves must have been deployed near the crest of the mountain where the arms described in the book come together nearly at the crest. The wings would be separated by a couple hundred feet (feasible in a medieval battle) and the gate centered between them. If the battle took place in a bowl near this crest it would make more sense. There would still be the problem with the ruins of Dale as described being in the center of the battlefield.
It seems to me that Tolkein, an experienced World War One officer, described a battle fought the way it would have been in modern times with rifle armed infantry instead of swords, spears, axes and bows. Ever Tolkein's weak spot, the battle scenes of authors inspired by Tolkein stories (like Dennis McKiernan's and Robert Jordan's books) seem more authentic if less magical than the master.
First I need to explain, I'm a recently retired career soldier and a military historian. Medieval military history is one of my areas of study.
The mountain as described with two of its arms nearly encompassing the ruins of the city of Dale the scale of the mountain is too large for the battle as described. The map in the Atlas of Middle Earth is probably correct and shows several miles between the two arms and thus that distance would separate the Elves from the Men and Dwarves. Both those wings would also be separated by several miles from the entrance that Thorin and his companions were holding. The numbers we have: 1,000 elvish spearmen in addition to unspecified number of elvish bowmen, 500 dwarves, unspecified number of men under Bard, Thorin and his twelve. If ever you have seen a military parade you can see how small this number is when talking of massed ranks in formation. In a medieval battlefield these numbers are relatively small and no commander would separate his wings by miles (there is no point in a battle without long ranged weapons). Also the second orc attack is described as passing over the mountain itself, but such a mountain, miles long would require hours if not days to traverse. If the wings were separated by the distance shown in the battle map (of the ME Atlas) the dwarves/men would not have mixed with the elves and the sally by Thorin and his twelve would have been unnoticed by the separated wings.
It seems to me that the Elves, men and Dwarves must have been deployed near the crest of the mountain where the arms described in the book come together nearly at the crest. The wings would be separated by a couple hundred feet (feasible in a medieval battle) and the gate centered between them. If the battle took place in a bowl near this crest it would make more sense. There would still be the problem with the ruins of Dale as described being in the center of the battlefield.
It seems to me that Tolkein, an experienced World War One officer, described a battle fought the way it would have been in modern times with rifle armed infantry instead of swords, spears, axes and bows. Ever Tolkein's weak spot, the battle scenes of authors inspired by Tolkein stories (like Dennis McKiernan's and Robert Jordan's books) seem more authentic if less magical than the master.