Destruiction of the One Ring - the effect on the other Rings.

[eowyn fan]

I have read the LOTR once and seen the movie twice. The movie makes it very clear that Elrond implored Isildur to destroy the ring. Was that in the book? Given that the elves' rings seemed to give them power and that with the destruction of ring, their own would be de-activated, why would Elrond be so keen to destroy the Ring, especially if everyone initially thought that Sauron had been destroyed? When he returns, then the need to destroy the ring becomes inevitable.

Also, how did the elven rings give them power? I mean, didn't they live on ME and have powers before they were given the rings? So why would they have to leave ME or become "rustic folk of dale and dell" or something like that?

[Ståle]

Elrond, beeing a wise and all-around good-guy(elf?), knew that evil could never be truly vanished while the ring still existed.

But Isildur didn't have the willpower to destroy it, hence Elronds bitterness by the time of the War of the Ring. :D

[Snaga]

Not wanting a film / book comparison, but in the book I would not describe Elrond as bitter. (Its been 1000s of years, and hey, lifes too short!). Just saddened, I suppose.

But I think Ståle is right that Elrond is prepared to sacrifice his own powers for the final defeat of Sauron, because its the right thing to do.

The answer to your other part of your question Eowyn fan is that Galadriel, Elrond did have powers before, but that the Rings enhanced these. Rings give power according to the measure of their owner, says Galadriel to Frodo (or was it Gandalf). So a little hobbit gets not much, long life and invisibility say. Where as an elf-queen like Galadriel can create a beautiful realm, see things in her mirror, defy Sauron for centuries, etc etc. Galadriel was one of the greatest of all the elves, grand-daughter of Finwe, father of the Noldor - the most gifted of all the houses of the elves.

I think the thing that always puzzled me is why it was that the 3, which Sauron never touched, lost all their potency once the One was destroyed??:confused: I think I ought to understand this after reading the book about a gazillion times... but I don't...!

[Gothmog]

The knowledge to make the Elven-Rings came from Sauron. So when he mad the One Ring he was able to control All of those made by the Elves Even the Three forged by Celebrimbor. For Although Sauron did not touch these they were made by the same craft that he taught to Elves and therefore had the same weakness allowing the One Ring to control them.

Shame really isn't it?

[Ragnarok]

Good ol' Sauron. Duping everyone to his own good. Sounds like me in my younger years. (My younger years being 6 and stealing cookies from jars.)

[Snaga]

Posted by Gothmog

The knowledge to make the Elven-Rings came from Sauron. So when he mad the One Ring he was able to control All of those made by the Elves Even the Three forged by Celebrimbor. For Although Sauron did not touch these they were made by the same craft that he taught to Elves and therefore had the same weakness allowing the One Ring to control them.

Yeah I got that bit:)

But you remember that Galadriel (I think) tells Frodo that some believe that once the One has gone the Three will be free to do as Celebrimbor once intended, and others believe the Three will lose their potency. Galadriel believes the latter, and it turns out she's right. But I don't think it is explained WHY. You would probably need to have PhD in Ring-Lore to understand it though!

[Grond]

Variag, think of Sauron as a battery. The lore he passed into the art of Ring Making is the power source from that battery (Sauron). The Rings made with his help have a current more closely related to Sauron's own will. The Three made by Celimbrimbor have a different current, were created for a different purpose and were never touched by Sauron but are powered by his same battery, so to speak. Sauron then passes the greatest part of the power source into The One Ring to better control the other Rings. It is now the master power source. When it is destroyed, there is no power source for any of the Rings, not the 9 nor the 7 nor the 3. :)

[QueenBeruthiel]

Didnt Celebrimbor begin the ringmaking in Eregion in a kind of collaboration with Sauron, who then used his skills, and those learnt from the elves, to forge the One, to dominate all the others?

That is why, as Elrond points out, "all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One".

[Snaga]

It was a collaboration but Sauron was the senior partner. (I checked this in the Sil).

He taught Celebrimbor, Celebrimbor got on with making the three, and then they did the 7 and 9 together I think. In fact, the dwarves believed that the first of the 7 (Durin's) wasn't touched by Sauron either.

[QueenBeruthiel]

thank you, that was my first reply in the forum!

Doesnt that answer your earlier question though. If Sauron was the senior partner in the collaboration, surely then he would have power over all the rings, even those he had not come into contact with. If he was the one who taught Celebrimbor, who then forged the 3, couldnt he therfore have taught the elf to produce rings which were vulnerable to his control, via the one?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
It was a collaboration but Sauron was the senior partner. (I checked this in the Sil).

He taught Celebrimbor, Celebrimbor got on with making the three, and then they did the 7 and 9 together I think. In fact, the dwarves believed that the first of the 7 (Durin's) wasn't touched by Sauron either. I think if you'll check in the Sil, in the Rings of Power, you'll find that the three were the last of the Rings of Power made. They were made by Celebrimbor alone and were not sullied by Sauron, but his power was on them since he had taught Celebrimbor the craft.

BTW, did you read my power source theory four posts up? I thought that gave a logical portrayal of the relationship of Sauron and the Rings, but no one has commented.:(

[Lantarion]

Aww, poor Grond. :) But I agree, I think that because of Sauron's greatly infulencive collaboration and the power he passed into the making of the Rings, (all 19 of 'em) by simply explaining how to bring them about, the Rings are linked to both his mind and his One Ring. Is it mentioned anywhere if the Three Elven Rings were somehow influenced by the downfall of Sauron in the Battle of the Last Alliance? If so, dig it up and back up Grond's theory.
The Theory of Connection, devised by Grond. (And first upheld by Pontifex). That sounds cool! :D

[Gwaihir]

Well, I saw your post, Grond and the "battery" analogy has some interest. I think you are correct in that the One Ring becomes the master source for the others. That is the "trap" that Sauron sets.

I like to think of the Rings of Power as a sort of Trojan Horse. What appears to be a valuable gift has this secret trap embedded in it. This in built into the "lore" or techniques for the crafting of the rings, which Sauron taught Celibrimbor. The elves did not percieve that the lore was "booby-trapped" until the One Ring had been created and their rings came under it's influence.

That Sauron did not participate in the making of the elf rings is why they are not inherently evil and corrupting, but they are still bound to the one ring for ever.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Pontifex
...Is it mentioned anywhere if the Three Elven Rings were somehow influenced by the downfall of Sauron in the Battle of the Last Alliance? If so, dig it up and back up Grond's theory.
The Theory of Connection, devised by Grond. (And first upheld by Pontifex). That sounds cool! :D I'll find the quote, but I'm sure that there wasn't an effect on the Elven Rings other than with the One Ring lost, it was safe to use them again. Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan were able to use their power again. I'll look it up tonight or over the weekend.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Pont.;)

[Gothmog]

Grond, I agree with your theory about the One Ring being the Power source for the other rings.

This makes even more sense if you consider that in the lore taught to the Elves by Sauron something was left out. If this was true then the Elven-Rings would need something extra to work fully,Power, it would also mean that any other Rings made using the same lore at any other time would have the same flaw and be subject to the One.

Had there been nothing left out of the lore then how could the One rule rings that had not been touched by Sauron, and why would the Rings lose their power when the One was destroyed?

[Snaga]

Grond it was a beautifully crafted analogy!

But I think you have to add in that the rings originally had their own power source, but after the One appeared, they could no longer use them.

Also you are quite right about the 3 being made last. Incidentally Sil seems to disprove the theory that Durin's ring was never touched by Sauron. (This rumour is reported in LotR appendix A). Although, given that Moria was next door, Celebrimbor could have had a fourth ring spare to give him. They were on good terms I think.

A couple of slightly left field questions/points.

1. Why did Celebrimbor choose to give the rings to Elrond, Gil-galad and Elrond; and why did they take them. Celebrimbor was advised to steer clear of Sauron, but chose not to; by El and Gil. You'd think they would have been quite wary...

2. Did you know... that Sauron left the One behind at Barad-Dur when he went with Ar-Pharazon to Numenor in the 2nd Age. This is why the One didn't end up in the depths of the sea when the Valar sank the island. This was asked about in another post a few weeks ago but I can't find the thread. Anyway, Sauron was kinda taking a risk don't you think?

[daisy]

Grond,

I also appreciated your analogy and am going to pass it on to a teacher-friend of mine who is embarking on a LOTR unit, if you don't mind.

I always wondered whether the nine rings given to men, great kings who became wraiths, were absorbed or lost or what. Do the wraiths still wear them and is that what fuelled their change into wraiths? Can someone give me a reference in the Sil or something on this?

Thankyou,
daisy

[Grond]

I'll look up the reference but the Rings were the vehicle that transformed the 9 Kings of men into the 9 Ringwraiths. Either in UT or HoMe it explains that Sauron stripped them of their Rings sometime after they became wraiths. This was probably done so that he would still exert control over them if he lost the Ruling Ring. I won't be home from Dallas until Monday AM so if someone has HoMe handy, please look this up for Daisy (whistles for Cian)!

PS. Sauron keeping the Wraiths Rings was the reason he still maintained his rule over them even though he didn't have the Ruling Ring. At least that is how I remember it explained in the passage.:)

[eowyn fan]

Just got back from a long weekend, thanks for the replies. I still wish I understood better why losing the rings diminishes the Elves so severely. I realize that it's losing a power source, but it seems to basically be the end of Lothlorien and Rivendell.

[Neithan]

I think that the main reason why the fall of the one ring,would make such an impact on the eleves might be that it was an undesputible token of the elves "retreat" from Arda. But than I am tired and sleppy now,so I resolwe to easy solutions now.:o

[Grond]

The author in either the Sil or UT explains that the Elven Rings were unlike the others. There main power lay in their ability to slow the decays of time. For an elf, who is immortal, keeping ones home basically the same is important. It actually appeared that the Rings slowed time itself to some degree. Anybody remember the Hobbits completely losing track of time in Lorien and wondering how come so much time had passed outside while it seemed only a small amount of time passed inside Lorien. That ws the Power of the Elven Rings. When the One Ring passed away and was unmade, the Elvish Homes of Imladris and Lorien would begin to decay. That is the reason they were abandoned and the Elves journeyed back to Aman.

[Brent]

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
Didnt Celebrimbor begin the ringmaking in Eregion in a kind of collaboration with Sauron, who then used his skills, and those learnt from the elves, to forge the One, to dominate all the others?

That is why, as Elrond points out, "all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One".

No it was the other way around, Sauron had the knowledge which he gave to the Elves - He was once a Maia of Aules people and he was mighty amongst them. Aule was the Smith Valar.
Celembrimbor was the grandson of Feanor but I recall Feanor leanrt his craft from Mahtan (?not sure about the name, Mahal is another name for Aule) the Noldor Smith who was the father of Nerdanel. And that was thousands of years before, but not before Sauron.....