So why did Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria??? [Archive]

Gothmog

01-17-2002, 09:52 PM

the only mention of the High Pass that I could find is when Frodo was talking to Gloin before the Council:
'Indeed,' said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days.

So it seems that there is trouble on the other side of the mountains that the High Pass will take them into.

The other Mention of a high pass is later:
Many had gone east and south; and some of these had crossed
the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair. The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;

This is probably why Aragorn wanted to try the pass of Caradhras first.

Greenwood

01-17-2002, 11:15 PM

The map in my copy of FOTR does not give altitudes, but it does give a rough scale and the High Pass looks to be approx. 150 miles further north than the Redhorn Gate. In winter this could make a difference in the weather you could expect. Taking the High Pass would also necessitate a long journey south either between the mountains and the river, the river and Mirkwood (bringing them near Dol Guldur), or on the Anduin River itself (which would mean either finding or building boats in the wilderness).

As for the Redhorn Gate itself, Gandalf says at the end of the debate between Aragorn and himself; "From signs that we have seen lately I fear that the Redhorn Gate may be watched; and also I have doubts of the weather that is coming up behind. Snow may come. ..... "

Kuduk

01-18-2002, 02:11 AM

I think it is difficult to use the Company's experience in their attempt to cross the Redhorn Pass as a basis for making judgements about what conditions would have been like on the High Pass since the snow on the Redhorn Pass did not appear to be 'natural' in origin.

Anyway, I think the reasons for not taking the High Pass and crossing the Misty Mts right from Rivendell is given in the book.

At the Ford of Bruinen they left the Road and turning southwards went on by narrow paths among the folded lands. Their purpose was to hold this course west of the Mountains for many miles and days. The country was much rougher and more barren than in the green vale of the Great River in Wilderland on the other side of the range, and their going would be slow; but they hoped in this way to escape the notice of unfriendly eyes. The spies of Sauron had hitherto seldom been seen in this empty country, and the paths were little known except to the people of Rivendell.

So I would also offer that by the reasoning given in this paragraph, the decision to go through Moria was a calculated risk and not necessarily poor judgment -- except, of course, they forgot about the small matter of the Balrog.

ReadWryt

01-18-2002, 07:04 AM

Ok, look...here is the whole deal on Personal Attacks. Unlike the reaction that some un-named poster to this thread had, and counter to their statement that when attacked they will attack back, there will be NONE of that in ANY thread. If anyone attacks you personally, let the moderators know by reporting the post. Do NOT respond with a "Counter Attack"...this is how Flame Wars indeed start and flame wars were the reason the previous incarnation of this forum was shut down. If you MUST respond to someone's post do so in Private Message or E-Mail but do NOT presume to waste the Public Space with your petty personal garbage...period. Trust me on this, I know that some of you think that I am mean, ill tempered and possibly drunk with power, but if you think that I am like Saruman wait till you have to tangle with the Webmaster, he is not just Morgoth, he is Eru on a really bad day!

daisy

01-19-2002, 05:36 AM

I was under the impression that Gandalf was very much aware of the existence, or at least rumour of the balrog, and was simply hoping that they could make it through Moria without making too much noise, which of course Pippin took care of. Am I wrong? A sleeping four year old has cut off access to tome.

daisy

Grond

01-19-2002, 05:41 AM

Daisy, I think everyone was aware that Durin's Bane resided in Moria; but, whether anyone actually knew it was a Balrog is never stated in the texts. I seem to remember it referred to as a sleeping evil awakened when the Dwarves delved too deep.

And you are right, both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before and not encountered the evil thing.

Lantarion

01-19-2002, 10:56 AM

Then why would Gandalf be reluctant to go through Khazad-dûm? If he didn't have a clue of what was inside, you might call it caution; but he seems very grim and sure that the way through Moria is unsafe.. Perhaps Maiar have the same kind of 'revelations' that Elves have (like Melian, when she speaks to Galadriel of the destruction of Beleriand), and Gandalf just somehow 'knew' that there was something nasty locked up inside. He knew that the Dwarves had awakened Durin's Bane, but he wasn't sure whether it was still there or not. His not being sure is shown in his sigh: "A Balrog. Now I understand. What an evil fate. And I am already weary."

Grond

01-19-2002, 02:54 PM

Yes, Harad and Pont. They were faced with making a choice between many different bad situations. Gandalf chose Moria because of the many reasons already cited on this thread. His reasons might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but he was leading the company and felt the road through Moria had the greatest chance of being successful, as written by the author.

I continue to feel that Gandalf felt an intense need to get to Lorien and that was a driving force behind his choice.

Greenwood

01-19-2002, 04:25 PM

I concur with Grond. Though everyone knew something known as "Durin's Bane" was in Moria (at least in the past), I can find no evidence that it was actually known to be a balrog. After the Fellowship has left Balin's Tomb, Gandalf tries to hold the door closed with a "shutting-spell". When Ganadalf tells the others about the incident a few minutes later, Gimli asks him if he met the beater of the drums. Gandalf replies: "I do not know. ... But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before." He describes putting the shutting spell on the door and talks about hearing the orcs on the other side of the door. He goes on: "Then something came into the chamber -- I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. ...." [emphasis added] A few pages on, when the balrog is at last revealed to all as they head for the bridge, Gandalf says: "A Balrog. .... Now I understand." All of the preceeding indicates to me that until the Fellowship's encounter with it, it was not common knowledge that Durin's Bane was a balrog. Most of us have read the books so many times that I think we sometimes have trouble remembering what is known when.

As I said in the earlier incarnation of this thread, I think Gandalf chose Moria as the best of a bunch of bad choices. I also pointed out earlier that Durin had been slain more than a thousand years earlier and even the dwarf/orc wars at the end of which Dain Ironfoot says that he has looked into Moria and Durin's Bane is still there, are over 200 years in the past. Balin and his folk re-entered Moria and lived there for five years before being wiped out. Gandalf did not know for sure that Balin was dead, though it had been 25 years since Balin was heard from. Gandalf did know that Balin lived for five years in Moria without trouble. I do not think it was a necessarily fool-hardy hope that the Fellowship could slip through unnoticed in a few days where Balin lived for five years.

Greenwood

01-19-2002, 05:56 PM

If one argues that Saruman himself would be guarding the Gap then he would be a formidable threat. However, considering Saruman was not found outside of Orthanc until he was thrown out (true?) that seems unlikely.

In The Two Towers when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are camped outside of Fangorn forest they see an old man watvhing them who disappears when they try to approach him. They suspect he is Saruman, but there is no proof. The next day after they meet Gandalf, they ask him if he was the old man of the night before. He replies that he was not and surmises that Saruman had come to investigate what had become of his troops and their hobbit captives. Thus we have an indication that Saruman would indeed leave Orthanc in pursuit of the Ring.

Grond

01-19-2002, 06:01 PM

Harad, I won't argue to your point, (I was wrong to do so on the last thread) as your point is valid. We are left to wonder why Gandalf made the choices he did. Was it to visit Lorien, was it because he feared Saruman (the known) more than Durin's Bane(an unknown) we'll never know. You have argued your point well that the Gap of Rohan certainly made sense and would have made a good story in itself.

Possibly the author already had a preconceived decision for the Fellowship to pass through Lorien (after all Galadriel was already an important player in his Histories and maybe he just had to include her in his book). For whatever the reasons, I find no monumental error in Gandalf taking the mines.... call it an error in judgement and not necessarily an error in logic.

And I mean this sincerely Harad.......... Peace!!:)

Gothmog

01-19-2002, 06:30 PM

'Things have changed since you came north, Boromir,' answered Gandalf. 'Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer.

This is the reason that Gandalf would not concider The Gap. It is because Saruman would be actively watching for the ring. Gandalf may well have wanted to go to Lorien and if so this may have influenced the decision. But he clearly states that "The Ring Must Not Come Near Isengard". Saruman may or may not have left the Tower but would have been watching and could have sent his Orcs to where the Ring was. After all he managed to do so on the other side of Rohan.

Rian

01-19-2002, 07:09 PM

There is one point that is missing from this thread. In the book, while the company was debating on what path to take - they were attacked by Wargs. At that point, the closet path to choose was through Moria.

Gothmog

01-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Rian that is a very good point, but Gandalf wanted to go through Moria before they had even left Rivendell. I think that this is why harad asked the question in the first place.

Grond

01-19-2002, 07:18 PM

I am sure that I remember the author saying something about wanting to expand on "legends" mentioned in The Hobbit about which he had already written much text about. These things would have included Gondolin (which was destroyed), Galadriel, Celeborn and Amroth (two of whom resided in Lorien) and Moria (where Durin's Bane dwells). Isn't it likely that the author pointed Gandalf that way so that both the mines of Moria and Lorien would play pivotal parts in the story. I agree that he gave logical reasons not to take the Gap but the darkness of Moria and the light of Lorien add so much depth to the story. Gandalf behaves logically because the author makes it so.:)

Gothmog

01-19-2002, 08:09 PM

This is so but I feel that the reasons of the author and the reasons of one the charaters in the book are two different questions. If we have concluded this question about Gandalf's reasons perhaps harad would like to start a thread about "Why Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to go through Moria?"

Could cause some interesting debate.:cool:

Snaga

01-19-2002, 09:30 PM

The view that it would be easier to sneak through the Gap of R than Moria is one that I want to dispute. I do this from having some training in Search and Rescue (although I can't claim to be a world expert).

It is definitely easier to find someone/a group in an open relatively flat terrain than it is in cave complex. Caves would be easier if they were small, but Moria is huge. Even mountains locations are harder than open ground. Main point, you can overfly flat terrain more easily, and there are fewer points of concealment. Saruman and Sauron definitely have flying spies of one sort or another.

The approaches to the Gap are hostile to the Fellowship - they are the home of the Dunlendings, Saruman's allies. So plenty of options for intercedence on the ground. When you get to the Gap there is a river to cross. The main crossing is the Fords of Isen, and Saruman can easily cut them off. But even if they find other means of crossing, it is still relatively straightforward to post patrols all the way along the 70 mile length. Orcs travel very quickly, especially wolf-riders so you might not need that many to close it, if you can see the Fellowship coming from the air. Add into this that it is one of the most likely routes, so you would deploy lots of resources to close it off. On this basis, Gandalf's assessment of the Gap as high risk is correct.

Then all that leaves you to say is whether Moria was lower risk. My impression is that on the facts available to Gandalf the risks appeared lower. Because he didn't know that Durin's Bane was active, and he didn't know it was a Balrog, and he didn't know Sauron had sent Uruks up to try to block it. Moria is easier to block off if you EXPECT the Fellowship to go that way (because you need to hold the Bridge) but Gandalf gambled on it not being blocked because this was not an expected option.

Of course the right way to go was to sneak north, turn east by Mt Gundabad, nip along south of the Grey Mountains, stop for tea at Erebor, take a boat down to Rhun, and slip into Mordor by the back door. If Gandalf had taken Frodo on the back of Shadowfax, they could have been there in no time!:D

Gothmog

01-20-2002, 04:44 AM

And also the Ents are roused to sack Isengard and defend Rohan while the Rohirrim are fighting in Gondor. This would not have happened if the Fellowship had used the Gap.

Aldanil

01-20-2002, 09:33 AM

The river I'm asking after, sez Iaradanduin, is the large one that flows for many leagues along the border of Near Harad and empties into the Sea between Ethir Anduin and the City of the Corsairs; the fold-out map in the back of my old hardcover copy of ROTK doesn't give its name. I've been trying to apply the analytical method espoused by our Forum's own Harad to solve the apparently knotty problem posed by its so clear-minded questioning of the "logic" of either Gandalf or Tolkien (or both together) in choosing the way for the Ring to Go South, and I think I've figured it out. What would surely have proved the quietest, quickest, and most secretly surprising route for the Fellowship to follow (if only Mithrandir or our donnish short-sighted Author had possessed the good sense to see it) puts them in Elven-boats from Rivendell to ride the swift currents of Bruinen to Mitheithel past Tharbad to the mouth of Greyflood and so south and then southeast across the Bay of Belfalas, enjoying the envigorating ocean air all the while, of course, and approaching Mordor from a most unexpected angle too, quite a strategic plus there, sailing stealthily along up that nameless big river aforementioned north of Umbar, and finally sneaking into the Land of Shadow over the southwestern range of the Ephel Duath. Even Sauron wouldn't be looking for the Company to come up from behind him! This plan for the Fellowship would have just been the best, as I'm sure you'll admit if you can grasp the narrative concept, allowing for the contrast of the crebain avoided with the seagulls encountered, bringing into the story both the dusty dry heat of Mordor and the salty cool breezes of Belfalas. And I'm sure the One would certainly have reached Orodruin at this rate before the Fourth Age was more than a few years along. Why didn't the old Professor think of sending them that way, I wonder?

All of which is intended to underscore the point either hinted at or stated quite eloquently outright by a number of previous posts to this thread: the path of the Fellowship into Moria is dictated both by the lack of alternatives, as Gandalf's argument and the Ngaurhoth make clear, and by the deeper story-logic of the Tale, which indeed takes its course, just as it carried Tolkien along on his long journey of discovery in writing it, down into the darkness of Khazad-dum and on to the light of Laurelindorinan. Though wishing not to appear too naively reverent on the matter, I do think that debating whether or not the characters would have been smarter to act in other ways than they did if the author who created them had just used logic more rigorously shows both a kind of critical hubris and a real misunderstanding of the nature of fiction. Grond asserted (or conceded) a few entries ago that Gandalf's reasons "might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but..."; I really cannot bring myself to agree with the Mace of Morgoth on this one. Mithrandir has eminently good if somewhat desperate cause to lead the Company into Moria, and the evidence to support that decision is strongly present in the novel and ably articulated in many of the postings above. Suggesting that Tolkien might have somehow done it differently and rather better if only his story-telling had been more "logical" is IMO kinda like being given 300 million dollars to turn a masterpiece into a movie and deciding instead to substitute an often distorted and shallow reimagining of its characters and narrative rhythm for much of the original's careful patterning, in fond hopes of enhancing its commercial appeal. Now where have I heard that before?

:rolleyes:

Grond

01-20-2002, 03:34 PM

Aldanil, you can't disagree with my assertion because it is not an assertion. It is a might have statement. I was simply countering the arguments that in other reader's opinion's, the actions of Gandalf might have appeared misguided or illogical but that they were explained in depth by the author and very logical reasons were given for proceeding through Moria.

The point I was apparently failing to make is that the story is the author's and no one elses. It isn't perfection, just the best story I've ever had the pleasure to read.:)

Aldanil

01-20-2002, 03:57 PM

A sentiment with which I can concur most wholeheartedly, dread Hammer my friend! :)

There I was, getting sniffy about what I perceived as unjustifiable concession, and you were only trying to be nice. . .

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 04:53 PM

It seems to me that it was Gandalf's intention all along to take the
path through Moria. They choose the southern route for the reason above, namely that it was not patrolled by the enemy. The fellowship did not take the northern passes for the same reason they did not take the Gap of Rohan: because they were heavily watched, they were the routes that the enemy expected them to take. Remember too that they had scouted all the lands before they ever left.

Regarding Durnin's Bane I will venture this opinion. It seems that no one knew whether Durin's Bane still was in Moria. It had not appeared for myriad years. Moreover, it seems to me likely that it rarely appeared and when it did it must have killed all to whom it manifested itself because not even the wisest and oldest seem to have known what it was. Moreover both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through the mines before and had found it empty.

What Gandalf did not realize was that the ring was attracting evil to itself, or at least how great this attraction was. He only began to realize when it was too late. He first noticed it when the Watcher attacked Frodo, but by then the company was forced to go through Moria. Even then they may have slipped through unnoticed but for Pippen's indiscrete curiousity. Gandalf's reasoning was completely consistent with the entire mission of the company. Going through Moria was perilous and unexpected. Yet it was a walk in the park and perfect logic when compared with the quest itself: to walk right into Sauron's stronghold itself, indeed right before his watchful gaze -- now that is ridiculous illogic.

It is interesting that Gandalf did not realize how powerfully the ring drew evil unto itself in its search for its master. Gandalf's fall in Moria seems to indicate that even the wisest would be of little aid on this quest. Not through wisdom was the ring to be destroyed. Indeed the quest seemed folly to the wise: ahem, Harad :)-.

And let's not forget, the path through Moria was a success, partly through "luck" since the company bypassed the fiery chasm and the trap set for them, and partly because of the courage and sacrifice of Gandalf, who was the wisest of the company. Indeed we could say that the path through Moria was successful because of the sacrifice of wisdom. The wisdom of taking that path used the same logic as the path of the quest. By seemingly sacrificing wisdom and choosing what to all appeared utterly foolish, they fooled the logic of Sauron.

sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia

Rian

01-20-2002, 05:33 PM

I had forgotten that they had sent out scouts prior to leaving Rivendell. If they indeed found that the other passes were heavily watched, I believe Gandalf would have decided on taking the company through Moria.

Greenwood

01-20-2002, 06:35 PM

I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree? Why is Frodo the last hobbit to be taken by the barrow-wight? Why does Ugluk and his troop grab the wrong hobbits? How do Sam and Frodo get away with their disguise as orcs in Mordor? Why isn't every evil creature in Mordor drawn to them as they make their way to Orodruin?

Aldanil

01-20-2002, 08:17 PM

Not to "heap" anything heavier than a mild measure of sarcasm on the fearless persistence of your iconoclasm, friend Harad, but I'm almost moved to wonder: are you seeking admission to the guild of the Nit-Picking Weenies? There may well be support, as evinced by the fine first effort of Thorin, for the notion of rewriting the screenplay; your implicit attempt at rewriting the novel, however, seems a bag-end at best. I hope this doesn't come across sounding smaug...

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 08:48 PM

Greewood wrote:

"I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree?"

This is a good point. There does seem to be some inconsistancy on the draw of the ring. I often wondered the same thing. You are wrong, however, to say there was no draw. And I am not talking about long-range draw but immediate attraction. Gandalf specifically comments on the fact that the Watcher attacks Frodo first and likewise that the orc-chieftan attacks Frodo who is probably the least menacing of the company. You would think that the orc chieftan would aim his spear at one of the warriors. Regarding Bree, it is very unlikely that the Riders attacked the hobbits room. Strider thought that the riders were too far from Mordor to make a direct assault on the inn. They prefer to use the influence of their fear on others and I think that it was just as likely one of the Southrons and Ferny who attempted the assassination. It would be more in line with the way the nine acted especially so far from Mordor.

Harad,

I'm not sure what you are saying. Gandalf does not know what hidden evils await in Moria. Both he and Aragorn have travelled it before and know that it is dangerous, but it has been abandoned for a long time, and as far as they know orcs have not returned to Moria in a long time. Regarding the Gap of Rohan, he knows the power of Saruman and knows that he is watching that pass most heavily. More importantly, he does not know that Rohan has not yet been won over. But even in the case of the men of Rohan his fears are in part correct. Saruman's Uruk-hai would have been safe had Eomer not disobeyed the king's orders, influenced by Wormtongue.

I don't know what is wrong with Gandalf's logic. Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf, and he expects the ring to pass through the gap. All of Saruman's powers are focused on getting the ring before it reaches Minas Tirith, for he wishes if it is possible to gain the ring himself. His best shot (which he gets at the Falls of Rauros) is to get the ring while it is still far from Sauron. Had the company chosen the Gap, it would most likely have fallen into his hands; remember unknown to Gandalf, Saruman possesses a palantir.

Moreover, I think it the intention of Tolkien to show that wisdom is not going to avail the company on their mission. The mission itself seems to defy all conventional wisdom. The company almost acts recklessly, and their only hope is to defy the logic of Saruman and Sauron. The point of going through Moria is that it is the last path that Sauron or Saruman would think of. It would not be watched by either Sauron or Saruman. If I am correct, neither Sauron's nor Saruman's orcs were in Moria. It seems that the orcs of the dark fire were in the service of the Balrog. And at least as of this time the Balrog was not in the service of the Dark Lord. He remains from the first age and it is not likely that he would easily come under the sway of Sauron especially now when Sauron still did not have the ring.

In any case, the more interesting aspect of the journey in the dark, is that Gandalf does fall. And as I have said before, wisdom will not avail the quest. Indeed it is less helpful to the bearer than the strength of arms. The company loses their wise guide even before they lose the strength of Boromir and the other great warriors. What then is necessary to bring the ring to its Doom?

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 08:51 PM

Sorry Greenwood,

I obviously didn't read the very passage I quoted.

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 08:56 PM

Harad,

You write:

"Tolkien was a fine writer. I could not hope to achieve in small part his LITERARY genius. However the analysis of logical systems is my business, and I if I see slight flaws, and point them out, it will take a lot more than your scorn to change my mind. It will take logical argument."

Would you respond to my argument that wisdom and logic does not avail the company. Their only hope is to defy all logic? You seem to be arguing that their choices are not logical. Gandalf agrees with you and indeed admits that the entire mission seems rash and illogical. That is their best hope.

sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 09:03 PM

Gandalf's argument for taking the road through Moria is this:

All roads are perilous. Therefore, they take the least expected because it will be least watched and hope they can slip through.

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 09:15 PM

Harad,

Perhaps, I think you elaborated your argument a little more. Thanks. Nevertheless, I still think you are being somewhat obstinate in your opinion.

By least expected, I mean least watched also. The Gap of Rohan as also other expected routes are very heavily watched, whereas Moria if it is watched at all, is not watched by Saruman's or Sauron's minions and Gandalf hopes by none at all.

In any case Gandalf's hope is that whatever evil lies hidden in Moria is not concerned about the ring. Durin's Bane in any case does not belong to the present age and has been inactive for many years and thus appears not to be concerned about the present age.

Obviously Gandalf hopes to slip through unnoticed. He is concerned about Balin's silence. Nevertheless, the company is very few and as Gandalf and Aragorn had done before, they hope now to slip through unnoticed.

Finally the evil in Moria is an evil that neither Sauron nor Saruman would expect the company to risk. Perhaps neither of them know what lurks in those mines and they may fear it as much as anyone else.

At least you must admit that the Gandalf's reasoning has a logic to it. The reasoning is to take the least likely path and by that way thwart the enemies own expectations. It is afterall the logic behind the entire mission.

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 09:18 PM

And note that I am asked to argue against both sides. First that the Moria path is more logical, hence used, and Second, that the Moria path is less logical, hence used.

Harad,

You must at least admit that you cannot win the argument. By reason the Council had concluded that they must take the least likely course, one that defied the logic of Sauron.

Bill the Pony

01-20-2002, 09:42 PM

In my opinion there seems to be one factor missing in this discussion, which is the chance that the ringbearer would escape even if the company is detected.
chance of being detected *chance to escape

Saruman knew that he was looking for a hobbit who was carrying the One Ring, and Saruman knew he wanted to get this one ring at all costs. On the other hand I am assuming the Balrog did not have such information. I do not know why the balrog attacked the company, but I guess it has something to do with just being evil. If this is true** then it may be more easy to distract the Balrog from the Ringbearer and enhance his chances of escape.

So my logic here is: Saruman & Balrog: about equal in power
Saruman knows what he is looking for, the Balrog does not.
Conclusion: larger chance for Ringbearer to escape if caught by Balrog, than if caught by Saruman.

How this extra factor affects the overall logic of Gandalf's decision I will leave open to the others on this thread.

**this is of course open to debate, and the issue of the Ring attracting evil comes in here. So far, there are examples where it seems to do so, but I have also seen some good counterarguments on this thread, so I don't want to take a positoin in this one.

Bombadillodillo

01-20-2002, 10:05 PM

Note however that most of the others argued that Moria was MORE logical, hence using your logic, Gandalf should have chosen the Gap, as it was less logical.

Harad,

Gandalf feared Saruman and knew his power. No one knew what was in Moria, but everyone sure feared it. He choose the least expected road which as I've stated above was also the least watched. Indeed except for Pippen they probably would have passed through unnoticed (although it seems that the Balrog should have been aware of their presence when the Watcher shut the Western gates). It was illogical to Saruman. Therefore Saruman was less concerned with that route, just as Sauron never dreamed they would attempt to enter Mordor and destroy the ring. What made no sense to the enemy was the hope of the West.

But Harad what do you make of the illogic of the quest in general?

Bill the Pony

01-20-2002, 11:36 PM

Note however that most of the others argued that Moria was MORE logical, hence using your logic, Gandalf should have chosen the Gap, as it was less logical.

Ok, I know I'm going to confuse myself here, but I'll try to write down the circle of 'logic' here:

fact: without being watched by Saruman the gap is the easier route
conclusion: the company should take the gap
Assumption 1: Saruman will not watch Moria because that's the less likely route (I believe this is a paraphrasing of the book)
conclusion: take the Moria route
Assumption 2: Saruman figures out that the company figures out that he won't watch Moria
conclusion: Saruman watches Moria
Asumption 3: the company figures out that saruman figures out that they will take the moria-route, hence that saruman will watch it.
conclusion: they should take the gap
etc etc etc...

Actually, I would stop this circle before assumption 2, (even though that is what happened in the movie), and end up going through Moria. But I agree, you can take this circle as far as you want, and end up with any conclusion you like. Ah well, I guess I should give up...

Snaga

01-21-2002, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Bombadillodillo

If I am correct, neither Sauron's nor Saruman's orcs were in Moria. .

Just to correct on that point - Gandalf says at one point in Moria that he's seen Uruks of Mordor. So Sauron appears to have this route covered!

I would set out the logic like this.

(1) The Gap is the easiest route south, and should be taken, although its a shame to miss out on Lothlorien.

(2) But Saruman has gone bad. Saruman knows the Gap is a likely route south, and will do his utmost to stop them. His HQ is next door so Saruman is 100% likely to try to stop them.

(3) What does Saruman need to do to stop them? I'll go into this in some detail, since Harad doesn't believe me.;) He must overfly the ground from Hollin southwards with Crebain to confirm their approximate location. He can post spies throughout Dunland, and locals can patrol for him. If they sneak past the Dunlendings they must cross the river. Firstly post about 1000 Uruks at the Fords. Then post about 500 in groups every 10 miles along the rest of the river. (Takes a total of 4000 - he's got this many). Then about 5 miles out from there, post small bands of wolf-riders - say 5-10 every 1/2 mile, with some kind of signalling system. Smoke, mirrors, some clever magic whatever - you're a wizard you can figure something out no problem. If the Fellowship hit that net, the groups by the river close in to choke it off. Swarm the skies with crebain, from this point out a further 25 miles so that every point is covered every hour or so. By this method, ensure that you have your wolf riders in position to catch them coming through and setting off the alert. The chances of avoiding detection: almost nil. Chances of the Fellowship successfully getting across a river without boats with that sort of force patrolling: almost nil. Even if Saruman can't stop them, the location of the Ring becomes known. Therefore the Gap is high risk.

(3) Therefore look for alternatives. Both Sauron and Saruman will consider the other routes.

(4) The most obvious alternatives are the mountain passes. There are 3: the High Pass, the pass by source of the River Gladden, and the Caradhras pass.

(5) Logical step from Sauron / Saruman - close the other passes (preferable) or watch them (minimum).

(6) Aragorn view: choose your best route above ground. Gandalf view: take a hidden route that is less obvious (Moria). A disagreement needs resolution, but the debate is inconclusive.

(7) Eregion is empty, rugged and little known except to the people of Rivendell. The Vale of Anduin is wide open, not far from Dol Guldur. Therefore stay to the west of the mountains as long as possible. Also it is winter, so northern passes may be harder than southern passes. (Also, the High Pass is known to go pass an orc stronghold (cf the Hobbit). Gandalf may or may not have got a 'friendly giant' to block it up - unknown). Aragorn prefers Caradhras.

(8) The company proceeds to Hollin, with the issue not yet resolved.

(9) Gandalfs view on Moria. Moria has a single entrance and single exit. If you attempt to close it, the probability of success is extremely good - for the sake of argument lets call it 100%, but Sauron and Saruman won't expect it. Also if you get through without incident, you will have been hidden.

(10) Now lets compare the odds:

Gap of Rohan: Probability of attempt to close = 100%. Probability of successfully closed = X%. Probability of closure = 100% x X% = X%.

B Moria: Probability of attempt to close = Y%. Probability of successfully closed = 100%. Probability of closure = Y% x 100% = Y%.

So Gandalf has to think it is less likely that they can sneak through the Gap, than that Sauron or Saruman will have not blocked Moria. He has to think that the odds are sufficiently better that he can discount the fact that Moria is risky anyway. He doesn't necessarily know the nature of Durin's Bane, but he would expect orcs at least. He has got through an orcs lair before in the Misty Mountains (in the Hobbit), and this time the odds should better. The dwarves and Gandalf were taken by surprise, and all but Gandalf were captured in the Hobbit, got themselves free and escaped. The Fellowship are probably better able to defend themselves, and know what to expect. He hopes to sneak through. He hopes (but doesn't expect) to meet up with Balin. He knows he can have tea and biscuits with Galadriel if he goes this way.

(11) Aragorn wins the debate: they go for Caradhras as the best bet, but that gamble proves not to work due to the snow.

(12) So they go to Moria. There is a Watcher in the Water, but its not there to take Rings from Hobbits - they get by.

(13) They are unlucky. Firstly Pippin lobs a stone down the well. Secondly, Sauron has sent Uruks. Thirdly, Balins folk are all dead. Fourthly, they've woken up Durin's Bane. Fifthly, Durin's Banes a Balrog.:eek:

(14) They also get lucky: Firstly, the orcs are poorly organised - they do not hold the Bridge of Khazad-dum - they chase after stone-throwing hobbits. Secondly, the ring-bearer has a hand-me-down milthril shirt.

(15) Balrog leaps one bridge. Gandalf breaks bridge. Balrog falls. Balrog swings whip. Gandalf teeters on brink. "Fly you fools!" It was his idea - the cheeky monkey!:D

Well this is a long post and no mistake. I can think of no more to say on this subject. Except that I recognise that the probability of convincing Harad on this one, is significantly lower than the probability of the Fellowship getting through the Gap of Rohan.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'Harad! Harad is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Logic's Bane' he cried, and letting his axe fall covered his face.';)

Whoops that's not a personal attack is it? I will be struck down! Harad - can I say how in this thread I have enjoyed your posts - you have played with logic in a masterly fashion!:)

Snaga

01-21-2002, 02:10 AM

No really! When you posted:

And note that I am asked to argue against both sides. First that the Moria path is more logical, hence used, and Second, that the Moria path is less logical, hence used.

I laughed out loud!:D

I have this picture of you as Sean Bean, being shot by one huge post, falling over, getting back up again, being shot down again etc etc! Except he went down after 4 arrows I think. I think we've posted about 5000 against your arguments and you still come back for more. :D Maximum respect!

Bombadillodillo

01-21-2002, 04:07 AM

As far as Moria is concerned, pick one explanation. You can not use both. It was more logical or it was less logical.

The hope of Gandalf was that Saruman would think Moria the least logical. Gandalf's abilility to see the logic of the enemy gives Gandalf's reasoning the edge.

There is more to reason than logic as it has come to mean. I prefer the term reason or logos.

LadyEowyn

01-21-2002, 04:34 AM

Harad-

You believe that the reason Gandalf chose Moria is because it made a better story, right?

Grond

01-21-2002, 05:02 AM

LadyEowyn, I feel the logic issue is one that really isn't up for debate because Gandalf had logical reasons for going through Moria. And, yes, there were very logical reasons to attempt the Gap of Rohan. IMHO, either option would have been logical because someone was interpreting data and making a decision. It may have been a wrong decision but not an illogical decision. I see all of the options as having a logical premise. The High Pass....ok. The Mouths of Anduin....ok. The Gap of Rohan....ok. The Mines of Moria....ok and chosen.

This choice also does make for a better story by the author. As I've said before, JRRT had already primed us to desire to hear more about the wonderful places he hinted at in The Hobbit. What better way to highlight them than to send the party through the Mines and then on to Lorien where the Eldest Female Elf on Middle-earth lives. She is a dramatic link to the earlier ages and gives the Author a vehicle to educate us about them.

I don't think he had to send the party through Moria. I'm sure he was capable of writing just as interesting and thrilling story taking them through the Gap of Rohan.

One last thing, in the HoMe, Treason of Isengard, it details that Theodred fell at the Fords of Isen and that the Fords were lost. I wonder what Gandalf saw sitting on the Pinnacle of Orthanc that might have made him consider that Saruman was preparing to strike Rohan. Wouldn't that be all the more reason to avoid the Gap. Just a thought. :)

Harad

01-21-2002, 05:10 AM

Lady E,
My post disappeared into cyber space. Its a MUCH better story with Moria. To satisify this nitpicking the story could have said earlier:

1. Borormir fought his way thru the Gap on the way north, barely avoiding 22000 Uruk Hais
2. Gandalf definitely needed to go to Lorien, which he couldnt have done thru the Gap.

lilhobo

01-21-2002, 05:21 AM

hmmm correct me if i am NOt right as apposed to being wrong but, the exit and entrance to Moria would be hidden to most folks, and once the orcs had captured moria, they would have made other exits and entrances.....

the Fellowship had to say "friend" to enter, so the entrance was pretty much intact

Harad

01-21-2002, 05:26 AM

gandalf and aragorn left inthe other direction..no need to use the password...and well before Balin arrived, let alone got wiped out. There may have been other exits...but no one knew about them, certainly neither Gandalf, nor Aragorn, nor Gimli, not JRRT

LadyEowyn

01-21-2002, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Harad
Lady E,
My post disappeared into cyber space. Its a MUCH better story with Moria. To satisify this nitpicking the story could have said earlier:

1. Borormir fought his way thru the Gap on the way north, barely avoiding 22000 Uruk Hais
2. Gandalf definitely needed to go to Lorien, which he couldnt have done thru the Gap.

Why do you care so much?

lilhobo

01-21-2002, 05:40 AM

well, thats why logically in ME terms :D, sneaking thru the Maze that was Moria would have been logical compared to being chased thru rohan even on horseback so that the badass lord could see their every move

lilhobo

01-21-2002, 05:43 AM

why does Harda care so much???? As someone mentioned previously, Harad is attemting to get inducted into the Nit picking Weenie Guild thru the back door :D

lilhobo

01-21-2002, 05:48 AM

Logically, Elrond and the dwarves should have sent an army down to take care of Saruman once his treason was evident.....Leaving Rohan and Gondor in the pincer that is Orthanc and Mordor was as silly as it was stupid.......

if it werent for the "forest spirits" and the ents, Saruman's 10,000 orcs and black men would have overrun helms deep and then on to Rivendell

LadyEowyn

01-21-2002, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by lilhobo
why does Harda care so much???? As someone mentioned previously, Harad is attemting to get inducted into the Nit picking Weenie Guild thru the back door :D

LOL. Oh, I see.;)

Grond

01-21-2002, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by lilhobo
Logically, Elrond and the dwarves should have sent an army down to take care of Saruman once his treason was evident.....Leaving Rohan and Gondor in the pincer that is Orthanc and Mordor was as silly as it was stupid.......

if it werent for the "forest spirits" and the ents, Saruman's 10,000 orcs and black men would have overrun helms deep and then on to Rivendell A record lilhobo, three consecutive posts on the same thread within 10 minutes.:)

As to your assertion that Elrond and the Dwarves send their armies to attack, you might want to read the Appendix in the RotK. Had they exposed themselves, they would have been annihilated by the waiting armies of the Easterlings. As it was, they were under siege during much of the Fellowships travels. I say this in all sincerity lilhobo, you might try reading before you post.

lilhobo

01-21-2002, 06:27 AM

well there isnt an appendix in the ROTK, and i have the three Books in the one volume paperback

But the point we are making is still LOGIC !!!!! :D If they had sent out their armies they would have been annihilated and yet if they had remained they would have still been annihilated IF it werent for the Ents........

Everyone is going on about how great it was to see Legolas and gimli counting their kills, but they only had ~40 each, when the enemy had 10, 000 out at the front

so lets get back to LOGIC

DGoeij

01-21-2002, 12:22 PM

There isn't much logic to set out for a journey right into the hearth of a heavily guarded land, surrounded by mountains, trampled by Orcs, so far off it will take you months to get there in the first place, knowing you're searched by every bad guy on the surface of the world, that the head of the council of supposedly good guys started out for himself and wishes for this Ring you happen to have, there isn't much logic in even trying is there?

Now to have that off my chest, they decided to set out and try anyway. Then at least give it a good try, IMHO
The Caradhras wouldn't let them pass. Darn, it was the best option. Now what?

Pass of Rohan: Someone else covered that pretty good, reaching it without being spotted was difficult enough, open grass land, even if you're able to cross the Isen, right under the nose of Saruman. They weren't even sure on whose side the Rohirrim where.
Going North? I'm not sure. That would have cost them a very long time. It would have been cold too. Did they have enough time? I don't know. About this road I am not sure why they didn't try. Maybe I've missed somebody explaining that. I'd like to know.

Going further south: Now that would have taken even longer, with the chance of being confronted with an overrun Gondor.
Moria: Unclear picture, supposedly not safe. Something called Durin's Bane, bad on its own, like the Caradhras. Gandalf has been there before and was able to sneak through it. The enemies where not expecting them to try that road. If they could manage to end up on the other side, they would be able to find refuge in Lothlorien for some R&R.

I am probably not covering any new paths, but still Moria looks like the best option on this moment to me. Looking forward to replies.

JeffF.

01-24-2002, 01:38 AM

The terrain in ME has always greatly concerned me as far as realism is concerned. Mountains and rivers are more impassible than they are in real life. For a river like the Isen so near to its source to be impassible except for the Fords of Isen is unlikely. Unfinished Tales even specifies that strong swimmers could cross it elsewhere which means to me that the fellowship could have found a route not near to Saruman. That the Misty mountains would have such few passes is also unlikely. Given all that even in the terrain as described for ME the Gap was the logical choice (based solely on terrain). Given the additional staff analysis factors of 'enemy forces' changes the equation. Saruman's Isengard 'dominates' (to use the military term) the Gap of Rohan and he has a large army capable of searching thru it. The enemy forces of Moria are unknown and the orcs of the Misty mountains are thought not to have recovered from the War of Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of Five Armies. Dwarves (Balin's company) may also be in Moria and the Rohirrim are across the Isen. An unknown factor which seems to greatly concern Gandalph is the proximity of the ring to Saruman. Evidently Gandalph is concerned that bringing the ring too close to Saruman is an unacceptable risk. While it is known that Saruman above all the rest of 'the Wise' had studied the Great Rings it is not known what the danger of the One Ring's proximity to him exactly is. Durin's Bane is the final unknown factor (unknown to Gandalph-known to us). Gandalph had no knowledge that a Balrog is in Moria as shown by his surprise at the narrow bridge. Since Moria is more of a 'choke point' (another military term) than the Gap of Rohan I believe that had Gandalph known of the Balrog he would not have chosen Moria (surely if the Balrog found the ring he would have become the new Dark Lord adn the West would be in as much danger as if Sauron himself had regained The Ring). He would have taken his chance in the wider Gap of Rohan.

In anlyzing this I have tried to do it from the perspective of what Gandalph knew when he made the decision and not from the perspective of the arm chair tactician with greater knowlege and information than the historical figure actually had. In view of what Gandalph knew, taking terrain, enemy and friendly forces into account his tactical decision to enter Moria seems sound.

Grond

01-24-2002, 02:44 AM

Thank you JeffF for the simple and concise answer I was hoping someone would post. Your logic is sound and I hope that the nay sayers will look upon this reasoned approach with favor and finally give up the argument that Gandalf had no sound and logical reason for taking the Moria route.

Harad

01-24-2002, 02:51 AM

Thanks Jeff,

A sound analysis given certain constraints. IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.

On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:

1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!

On the minus side of Moria:
1. Gandalf "ignores" the lesson of Balin's silence for 25 years.
2. Gandalf plays down the significance of Durin's Bane, in principal. What are the choices for something that has wiped out a thriving Dwarf city. What COULD Durnin's Bane be.

If Lorien is his hidden necessary goal. Then Moria is the only way.

Snaga

01-24-2002, 10:51 PM

Harad,

I'm not sure why I bother to respond... I must be overcome with joy at your return...;)

IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.

On the one hand Gandalf had been at Orthanc a month or so earlier, and had known Saruman for 100s of years, and on the other he had twice been through Moria without seeing Durin's Bane. Call it stacking the deck if you will, but the experiences of Gandalf do kinda point to him knowing more about Saruman.

On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:

1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!

But Gandalf specifically does take into account Boromir's journey (previous posts refer). Since the second is your first attempt to counter my previous argument that Saruman was perfectly capable of closing the Gap I'll respond to 2, in more detail.

I gave a strategy for closing the Gap with 4000 orcs. We know that he has many times that number. My strategy was IMHO complete over-kill - but lets leave that aside. You believe that Saruman was 'pre-occupied' with Rohan and could not spread his forces so thin. In fact Saruman does not attack Rohan for some months after the Moria/Caradhras/Gap debate - not until the Fellowship reach Parth Galen in fact! So he can do what he likes with his troops. In any event, whatever Saruman's preoccupation with Rohan, is as nothing compared to his desire for the ring. He could and would spare the troops. And Gandalf knows it.

I'm sure you will find another argument though. A most unquenchable Harad. Alll Wizards should have a Harad or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word :D

Harad

01-25-2002, 01:42 AM

I dunno V of K. I suggest the thread of "Who has the Best Beard" as an alternate way to sharpen ones intellect.

Sorry I missed your 4000 Orc Recipe--sounds disgusting--but if the Gap is 70 miles wide that leaves 57 Orcs/mile with no means of communication between groups of Orcs and the ability of the Fellowship to easily isolate and hack thru small groups.

1. Gandalf had been to Orthanc: So Saruman is looking for the Ring. True. But the last fact either he or Gandalf knew was that the Ring was in the Shire. If I am Saruman with this knowledge, the FIRST thing I would do is put all my troops in the Gap of Rohan. Right after that I would take a flying leap off of Orthanc.

2. Gandalf specifically takes into account Boromir: He does, doesnt he? He says that things have changed since his trip, since Saruman has gone rotten. Lets turn this around. How much time has Saruman been bad and how much time does he have to prepare an impregnable defense of the Gap--not against a large army, mind you, but against a stealthy band of 9 heroes.

3. With regards to Moria, Gandalf discounts the fact that Balin has been "outtolunch" for 25 years. Plenty of time to prepare a nasty welcome. But, really what COULD anyone find to worry about in Moria? Talk about whistling past the graveyard!

4. Saruman is either a goshdurn genius or a total idiot, not both. On the one hand he throws all his Orcs into the Gap based upon the reasoning of 1. On the third hand he is unconcerned about Rohan, despite the fact that Young Eomer is gallivanting around the grassy plains lopping the heads off his Orcs. Seems a bit of misplaced priorities if thats really what Saruman was doing. No, in fact, he was preparing for war against Rohan, since his plan with Worm was unlikely to result in their complete surrender.

5. As far as exasperation of posters goes, how can yours compare with mine? You have the comfort of like-minded fellow travelers, whilst I toil alone trying to see how a narrow passage with doors at both ends is preferred over a 70 mile wide Gap.

Tar-Palantir

01-25-2002, 02:30 AM

Ok, I'm gonna try this one again. In the last incarnation of this thread I put forth my theory as to why they went to Moria instead of another route. Unfortunately that thread got nuked. And since a certain degree of eloquence only comes to me once in a great while, I will apologize in advance for the cruditity of this post.

First of all, let's leave aside JRRT's motives for sending the Company through Moria - for the most part, everyone posting here has done that. It's unassailable and I'm impressed by the amount of thought that has gone into the deployment of Orcs across the Gap, among other things (the logic of the "story" as opposed to the author).

Here's the way I see it:

1) Gandalf was not gonna take them through the Gap. He gave enough arguments against it to convince me. He knew Saruman was bad news and he wasn't too sure about the Rohirrim either.

2) The High Pass. Too far north.

3) Caradhras. It's clear from reading the text that it was Aragorn's idea to try it, not Gandalf's. It had been a long-standing argument between them. The storm was a surprise (and not very widespread).

Ok, here's my theory: Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and maybe Legolas knew what Durin's Bane was. The Balrog didn't leave Moria, otherwise I'm sure the news would have gotten around. Hence Aragorn's cryptic comments. So, they knew the Balrog was in Moria.
It's my contention that Gandalf knew on some level (probably subconsciously) that he had to become "The White" in order for the War of the Ring to be won. I'm not saying Gandalf committed suicide, but he always seemed a little too eager to go to to Moria to me (and not just to "get out of sight for a while" - although I think that plays into it). Aragorn knew the Balrog was there and that it was gonna be drawn to another Maia (maybe the Ring too). Again, hence his comments before they went in.

Alright, I've got my mithril coat on....so send your arrows!

Aldanil

01-25-2002, 02:45 AM

And all we "fellow travellers" really do, after all, in between the numerous clandestine conference-sessions of our close-minded conspiracy, is to wonder what precisely the point might be of plowing back and forth over the same "open" but barren ground, in the apparent hope of demonstrating to an undetermined someone that The Fellowship of the Ring could have been substantially improved if only the author had been blessed with a clearer sense of strategic logic. Speaking entirely for myself, I genuinely can't understand why this argument continues to drag on like this at such tedious length, when the best and only truly reasonable solution to this knotty narrative problem has already been posted: take boats from Rivendell down Loudwater to where it joins Hoarwell, south by Greyflood to the Sea and across the Bay of Belfalas, up that unnamed river on the border of Near Harad and so at last enter Mordor, quite unsuspected, by the unguarded southwest corner of the Ephel Duath. Find the flaws in that theory, if you can -- if you dare!

Alas that our poor dear Oxford don John Ronald had not the benefit of our sage advice...

lilhobo

01-25-2002, 03:02 AM

man, when i posted this thread it was a protest at threads being deleted whillynilly :(

but this thread still drags on coz HARAD keeps repeating his LOGIC, and walter keep posting how useless it was to keep repeating LOGIC

PS. if they went the river route there would have been more kraken chasing them and it would have been a better story :D

Harad

01-25-2002, 03:32 AM

Aldanil very far now from his reward but still gamely going on,

1. I never said the FOTR would be improved by eschewing (god bless me) Moria. Quite the contrary.

2. I blame myself for not being able to explain simply enuf what seems obvious to me. The trouble is people can not put aside the slant introduced by JRRT and think in "real world" situations. Would the Gap have been closed? No. Could the Gap have been closed? Again no.

3. Your "scenario" could only be improved by equipping an Eagle with afterburners, strapping Frodo to one talon, Gollum to the other, and ending the story in one short chapter.

4. Finally, you act as if someone is holding a gun to your head, or, perhaps, you are holding your nose as you post. Either of those pictures doesnt reflect on me, now does it?

Grond

01-25-2002, 04:58 AM

It seems that everyone on this thread (that I can see) is in agreement that Gandalf took the only logical and correct path to accomplish all the things that needed to be done. Moria was both logical and "the right choice". Why not close the thread as everyone is in agreement???

Grond

01-25-2002, 05:09 AM

I must apologize. I have been PMed that Harad is still dissenting in the argument. Carry on!!!
;)

lilhobo

01-25-2002, 05:17 AM

hehhehe, was just about to say that harad is still in confusion , so the jury is still out :D

on the other hand he has started a new thread more specific to the issue at hand heheheh

DGoeij

01-25-2002, 01:14 PM

So the Fellowship was capable of passing the Gap or going thru Moria. A few patrols in the gap they could have handled, but crossing of the Isen could have been a problem. Gandalf had passed thru Moria twice, able to avoid anything nasty. But after those two options, then what?

After the Gap: Miles and miles of open graslands, not far away from Isengard. They weren't sure whose side the Rohirrim where on.

After Moria: Short road to Lothlorien. Celeborn and Galdriel would welcome them and they would be safe during their stay there. It does sound a little better IMHO.

Aldanil

01-25-2002, 04:13 PM

Once again the dread Hammer of the Underworld (two postings back) hit the nail right on the head; as some King or other once put it, "Can't we all just get along [with our lives]?" Take the pledge now that from this moment forward no longer will we allow ourselves to fall into the Gap!

Harad, if anyone is holding a gun to my head, it's only like Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles; and while I have tried on occasion posting while holding my nose with one hand, it does tend to cut way down on my typing speed! One good (if extremely minor) thing has come out of my sarcastic alternative route for the Fellowship; I tracked down the name of that "unnamed" river on the border of Southland -- it's the Harnen (as only makes sense). Finally, dear foe-man, if you yourself don't think that "FOTR would be improved by eschewing Moria -- quite the contrary", then what is the point of this endless argument? Going under the Misty Mountains rather than through the Gap of Rohan isn't the only possible path that the Company could have gone, merely the best among several choices; the reasons for this are clearly articulated within the story by characters whose reliability on the subject you challenge only at some peril to your own credibility, quite beyond the author's motives in constructing a narrative whose wonders you yourself acknowledge. The semi-exasperated length of this posting, I recognize, does somewhat resemble using the Mace of Morgoth to pound sand down a rat-hole (no least offense intended, O Grond!), and I know that we're all here just to share our opinions; nonetheless, I'm reminded of Gandalf's comment on Caradhras: you "cannot burn snow!"

What say we give the Gap a rest for a while, and adjourn instead to the movie forum to start a new thread for some really productive nit-picking about Moria, like why the Dwarves are supposed to have built all those absurd masonry stairs, and the architectural stress-limits that bear on tall narrow columns of brickwork!

Harad

01-25-2002, 06:32 PM

Anyone taking the Hammer of the Underworld as an underpinning had best consider his own "architectural stress-limits." It never ceases to amaze how people so exasperated with these unimporant details, continue to post their final final and finally final ramblings.

Another source of amazement is the "Walter syndrome." Anybody he disagrees with is repeating the same details. Anybody he agrees with is given free reign to post the same tired arguments ad nauseum. And does it really add something if a new person posts the same exact points. Since the points have already been refuted what is this lone defender of truth justice and the integalacticefederationway to do? Now for me, I say let everybody post as much as they want. But I dont have the same discriminating tastes as those with the "Walter-syndrome."

And if anybody is interested I reported Walters post on this thread to the moderators since it was off-point and merely an attack, but apparently such posts are allowed. Therefore, my response is not an attack.

ReadWryt

01-25-2002, 09:29 PM

Ok. lets just get something straight around here about this "Personal Attack" thing. Nobody is permitted to "Counter Attack" even if under personal attack. I thought I made that clear the first 20 times I said it but then, I'm often presuming stupidly.

As for what constitutes a personal attack, and I really am getting tired of all this **** as it detracts from the purpose of the Forum, it is as the Webmaster defined to me yesterday, "When they attack a person, that's a personal attack...not when they attack a post.". This is his policy on his forum. You can refute the deifinition of "Personal Attack" and drag out any authorative text you wish...you can even assume that you know better what the rules around here are then the Webmaster for all I care, but that is the rule and there is no reason to take up any problem you have with it outside of writing to him directly, and that is most likely an argument that would be short and unfruitful for any attempting it.

Now go play...

Harad

01-25-2002, 09:42 PM

Kwl...
Then I can say that your post is mindless drivel.
As far as you yourself are concerned...I have no comment.

Snaga

01-25-2002, 10:57 PM

Harad

You didn't miss my post on how Saruman could close the gap, you responded at the time. Trust me on that. RW zapped it, so it was clearly on the wrong side of the Dark/Light duality that was Harad the Grey!:D

Don't worry, Gandalf couldn't even remember his name when he came back. Post-resurrection amnesia is quite normal.;)

Grond

01-26-2002, 05:54 AM

I'll try this again. I originally posted this on the wrong thread (I feel like an idiot) but will try it here. Please let me know if I'm on the wrong thread again.

There have been several arguments made against the Mines of Moria and for the Gap of Rohan. The point I brought up was that the Gap is very narrow where it meets the River Isen. The map shows that as the Fellowship headed South, they would be blocked by the River Isen running West to East. The possibility of swimming it would surely have been considered by Aragorn, Gandalf and Boromir, but as it appears that only one of the Hobbits swam (possibly Pippin?) that would have created a problem. The narrow passage would have been much easier to seal against the Fellowship and would have also forced them to come that much closer to Isengard, which both Gandalf and Aragorn wanted to avoid at all costs.

I just thought this should be brought up since elsewhere in the thread reference was made to the Gap being wider than 50 miles. I doubt their options for safe passage were anywhere near 50 miles across, but I could be wrong.

Snaga

01-26-2002, 11:58 AM

I think Merry is the most likely swimmer. The Brandybucks, living by the Baranduin, were used to using boats. Not sure about Pippin or Frodo, but Sam definitely can't swim. Hence the need to be pulled out of the Anduin by Frodo.

Snaga

01-26-2002, 06:55 PM

Squeeky you are small but helpful.:) That is interesting. Does anyone know when Gandalf and Aragorn's visits would have been in relation to that? I don't remember reading anything more than what is in FotR (which is very vague).

(PS Bombadillo - yes delete it please. Thanks)

Harad

01-26-2002, 10:22 PM

Thanks squeek,

But I have some even more important dates to post. These are ESSENTIAL TO BE IGNORED if you want to maintain your opinions about Moria vs the Gap. Be warned:

All dates from 3018

July 4: Boromir sets out from Minas Tirith
July 10: Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc
Septemeber 18: Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen
September 24: Gandalf crosses the Isen.
December 25: The Company...leaves Rivendell

So Gandalf must figure that between September 24 and December 25 Saruman has made the Gap of Rohan impregnable, while at the same time preparing for war against Rohan. Also on Feb 26, 3019 Saruman's forces are in Parth Galen. What a guy!

Also see
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302

Snaga

01-26-2002, 11:10 PM

Harad you are big and helpful;)

Not though for making me doubt my opinion. You remind us all that Gandalf had two months of close observation of the strength of Isengard to base his opinions of the capabilities of Saruman. Given this he is hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?

Saruman of course does not close the Gap against lone travellers, or servants of Sauron who he pretends to serve, months before the formation of the Fellowship. But when his spies in Bree tell him that the ring is heading to Rivendell he lays his plan. His orcs are ready, so are his crebain. He has two months to spin a web to ensure that nothing passes through unnoticed from the north.

Snaga

01-26-2002, 11:13 PM

Thanks Squeaky. I've got a nice piece of Stilton waiting for you:D

Gandalf entered Moria looking for Thrain - so between 2841 and 2850.

Harad

01-26-2002, 11:22 PM

hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?

Absolutely not. Right after this study, he crossed the Gap without opposition, being both an enemy of Saruman and of Sauron.

lilhobo

01-27-2002, 12:26 AM

hmmm, this thread is getting more pedantic the longer it goes on,

gandalf was on shadowfax, not even the nine can outride him. Saruman does not even need orc patrols in rohan , all he needs are spies and scouts to spot the nine "wallkers" and his orcs would outrun them

Harad

01-27-2002, 12:40 AM

1. the crebain did not spot them
2. no one reports any orcs at the gap
3. put frodo on shadowfax and you solved the problem
4. if you want a "technical" thread go to uruks and uruk-hais

it not as if this thread wasnt borrowed anyway...

lilhobo

01-27-2002, 01:00 AM

yeah why not put frodo and Arwen on shadowfax and fly all the way to morrrdor

and if i wanted a more technical thread i go answer the "which beard is the best" thread :eek:

Snaga

01-27-2002, 11:45 AM

You don't know whether or not the Crebain spotted them. Anyway the Wargs certainly did. After the whole Caradhras episode their cover was well and truly blown.

Saruman hadn't blocked the Gap at the time Gandalf/Boromir went through but he had the orcs to do it. Maybe he never did block the Gap. For all I know his orcs could have been selling hotdogs to passing travellers from a van by the Fords to finance his purchases of Longbottom Leaf. But he COULD block the Gap, and Gandalf KNEW he could block the Gap.

Anyway Lilhobo there are many other threads so you don't have to post to this one just because you started it. Harad and I are having a nice friendly, nitpicking, pedantic and never-ending debate on this one, as is our right! Don't try and spoil our fun please!!!;)

Harad

01-27-2002, 05:49 PM

He didnt really start the thread. Eonwe did, but the original was lost when I was dragged into the chasm.

I am certainly on the verge of stopping. I have gievn proof with no contradiction yet that Rohan held the Gap the whole time. For sure, JRRT can tell Gandalf to think whatever. He can tell Gandalf to think that Sauron has spies in their Longbottom, so he has to smoke in the dark. That doesnt make it logical.

Gandalf was not a complete boob. He could gather intelligence about the Gap, much easier than he could about Moria. Instead of "knowing Saruman COULD block the Gap" he could "know Sauron COULD block Moria." And whose wargs were they anyway? They seem to be part of Sauron's spy apparatus, not Saruman's.

"Listen Hound of Sauron!," he cried. "Gandalf is here. Fly if you value your foul skin."

Not only does Gandalf give away his identity, he also infers that these are spies of Sauron. Yet he chooses the path thru Moria, Sauron's mountain getaway.

Aragorn: "...Holliin is no longer wholesome for us: It is being watched" Gandalf: "And in that case so is Redhorn Gate..."

And yet, they go that way, too.

The only way they dont go is the Gap, and thats the only way that was safe.

Snaga

01-27-2002, 06:31 PM

*Yawn* OK then lets call it quits for now. I could debate on - e.g. Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway' but perhaps turning this thread into a war of attrition is not a good way to resolve this. I propose a truce.:)

Harad

01-27-2002, 06:36 PM

* Burp * Whatever. I could debate myself but I would go blind.

2480-sauron begins to people moria with his creatures

Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway'

Grond

01-28-2002, 04:24 AM

BTW, everyone has been removed from my ignore list and I have reread this thread in its entirety. I will continue the debate with Harad (it is entirely too early to give up hope that you and I may convince him VoK).

Harad, the Gap of Rohan was but twenty miles across. (From Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of Isen). It is also clear from the text that the Fords of Isen were most certainly watched if not outright contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I will give a detailed account of this later this week and present my evidence. It is also apparent that he who contols the Fords contols the Gap.

I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That would make the Gap the expected choice of the party and hence the much more probable choice for the party to take. That very statement makes the Moria choice a logical one.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the desire to take the Moria route because of the I've got to get Elevated to White Status syndrome. He was too surprised at confronting an unknown (spell/counter-spell) in the Chamber of Mazarbul and his cold realization of what he faced at the bridge ("A Balrog...now I understand...what an evil fortune.... and I am already weary!") I think he felt the Gap was watched, expected and entirely too close to Isengard.

The Mines held the remote (note remote) possibility that Balin still lived, it was unexpected, hopefully unwatched (no orcs when Gandalf passed through before) and no one had seen Durin's Bane since Dain Ironfoot apparently saw it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs. Interestingly, no one apparently suspected that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only assume that everyone thought it was a great troll or some other evil like the watcher. Who knows??? But most importantly, and something that continues to appear ignored, both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, Aragorn had evil memories.

It appears that Gandalf had made up his mind to take this route or the Caradhras route while in Imladris. The only explanation for this would have been for his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes sense. It should be noted that this adds to the logic of taking the Moria route and doesn't detract from it. Gandalf felt the Fellowship would need a break by then and was sure that Galadriel would be able to protect and advise.

Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route less logical? Probably not, but certainly more dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting counsel from Galadriel and Celeborn and a rest in Lorien.

One can debate all day about the choices of the parties. I agree that some choices appear bad, some good, some seemingly illogical and others totally logical. That is what makes it a story. We can't reflect them in any real and logical light because they are FICTION. The author's mind and dream. It's the best book I've ever read. Apparently it isn't everyone of this forum's favorite. That's what the world and this forum is all about. People with different opinions.:)

Harad

01-28-2002, 05:17 AM

The Fords of Isen have the following dates associated with them:

Sept 24, 3018: Gandalf passes them without opposition going North.
Feb 25, 3019: Theodred falls at the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen.

from Unfinished Tales, the Battles of the Fords of the Isen:
Only here, south of Isengard, was it possilble for large forces, expecially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river.

Already this doesnt apply to the Fellowship...but lets proceed. I also dont find "20 miles" as the size of the Gap. My map's scale shows something like 70 miles.

The story does reinforce my contention that the Fords were either uncontrolled or controlled by Rohan. The army of Saruman comes unexpectedly from Isengard. Theodred "descried other forces hasting to the Fords, though their strength could not be guessed. He at once ordered a retreat." And "when Theodred gained the Fords the day was waning." The implication is not that Theodred fought his way to the Fords, but that he retreated to the Fords ahead of the enemy.

It all is moot since nobody, except me, cares that the Fords were not held by Saruman. The new argument is that "Gandalf thought the Fords were held by Saruman."

So if you believe that:

1. Gandalf thought Moria was ok because Balin was healthy but decided to take a 25 year break in communications, Sauron's populating Moria with his creatures starting 600 years before was an exaggeration, and Durin's Bane was a myth;

and

2. Gandalf was too lazy or unresourceful to check what he himself saw firsthand two months earlier (and 2 months after his imprisonment at Orthanc) and Boromir knew: that the Fords were not controlled by Saruman;

then, of course it full speed ahead into Moria.

Once again, if Lorien is NECESSARY then they have to go thru Moria to get there. And once again, its a better story to go thru Moria. That's not what I am discussing.

lilhobo

01-28-2002, 06:05 AM

yeap, you are so perfectly coorect about boromir, thats why boromir rode up the theodred at the ford of isen and told him to come to the council of elrond once hes had some KFOs, Kentucky fried Owcs

Grond

01-28-2002, 06:41 AM

And once again Harad, all you've done is given a few meager examples of why the Fords may have appeared more enticing a trip than the Mines of Moria. You have totally failed to respond to my post's logical evaluation of the decision and you have simply restated the same thing you've been saying for the last twenty or so posts.

One last time.... Gandalf had passed over the Fords on 09/24 on Shadowfax and also knew that Saruman would be even more vigilant since Gandalf's escape. He also had seen a good portion of the size of Saruman's force while he was held captive. He had surmised (see Chapter The White Rider in TT) that Saruman would be at war or approaching war with Rohan and the area of the Gap would be a hotbed of activity. I still am not arguing that the Gap would not have been a logical path; hence, making Moria a less logical path and thus, more unexpected, and thus more preferred. Why don't you take on my last post topic by topic and see if you can find any holes.

As for the width of the Gap, try looking in the index of UT and it gives it to you there. As I stated previously, the Gap is narrowed considerably when one takes the Fords of Isen into account and would be less even than the 20 miles in the index. As far as the River Isen being no problem for a party of 8, that is mere speculation on your part. Could this simply be a case of logic only applying where Harad wants it to apply? Take a stab at it. I've never claimed to be perfect.... Heck, I ain't even claimed to be right in this case.... but, at the least I am open minded. Now come on Harad, have a go at it and see where the holes are.

DreamingDragon

01-28-2002, 07:46 AM

Didn't Gandalf leave the decision up to the RingBearer? Not a good idea if you ask me........ but here's a thought for the day...if they HADN'T gone the Moria, and the Balrog not been ****** off and dragged him into the bowels of hell, would Gandalf still be grey???

think about it...talk amongst yourselves......

by the way, I'm new to this forum. Pleased to meet you all.

Edit: Foul language, poorly camouflaged, totally edited.

Harad

01-28-2002, 07:57 AM

I dont believe your post deserves any more comment--if you examine my initial response, it responds to the small number of new issues you raise. Nevertheless, I will take the time to do what you ask. First I looked in the UT index and still do not find "20 miles."

It is also clear from the text that the Fords of >Isen were most certainly watched if not outright
>contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I

Unproveable, and probably wrong considering Gandalf, Boromir, and Theodred (ignored posts above). Gandalf after 2 months of imprisonment in Orthanc, rides across the Fords without any reported difficulty on Sept 24.

Boromir left Minas Tirith on July 4 (independence day?) and traveled 110 days to Rivendell, thus arriving about Oct 22. When did Boromir cross the Isen? The Fellowship took 14 days from Rivendell to Hollin. Its probably twice as far, but Boromir could travel faster than a party with hobbits, so I reckon that Boromir crossed the Isen AFTER Gandalf, another piece of evidence that Gandalf ignored.

>I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap >are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That

Nice of you to admit that 20 miles (I still say 70 miles) is larger than 5 feet.

> Gap the expected choice of the party and hence >the much more probable choice for the party to >take. That very statement makes the Moria choice >a logical one.

Here we go again. The incredible reasoning that Moria was less logical, hence the right path, and in other places, more logical, hence the right path. Seldom do I see such confusion in the same argument. Congrats.

> I also don't subscribe to the theory that >Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the

Thank you for this.

> The Mines held the remote (note remote) >possibility that Balin still lived, it was

Completely discountable by all except the terminally optimistic Gimli. Not a word from Balin for 25 years. BTW even Gimli says at the CoE:

"..no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dum for many lives of kings, save Thror only, and he perished. At last however, Balin listened to whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dain did not give leave willingly...For a while we had news and it seemed good...Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since."

Seems rather cheerful, don't it?

>Gandalf passed through before) and no one had >seen Durin's Bane since Dain

Its pretty clear that Balin's folk saw Durin's Bane, but they werent talking.

>Interestingly, no one >apparently suspected
> that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only
>assume that everyone thought it was a great troll

How likely that a great troll wiped out a dwarf kingdom? JRRT didnt allow Gandalf to use normal reasoning power here. Furthermore, Balin's likely demise demonstrated that whatever it was, "its back." However Gandalf was "instructed" by JRRT to ignore this.

>Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, >Aragorn had evil memories.

By my reckoning Aragorn had been thru Moria 9 years before Balin entered, or 34 years before. As for Gandalf, I dont know but it also had to be more than 25 years before. In both of their cases they knew something was bad there, and their journeys were alone (?). And MOST IMPORTANTLY they did not have the Ring with them and Sauron on the hunt. Sauron began populating Moria with his creatures 600 YEARS before, so one could anticipate trouble, having just barely escaped Sauron's clutches outside of Rivendell.

> only explanation for this would have been for >his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes >sense. It should

As I said--my posts are the ones that are ignored-- if reaching Lorien is a NECESSITY, then Moria is required, regardless of all its drawbacks.

> Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but >certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route >less logical? Probably not, but certainly more

How can I possibly respond to such a mishmash? These sentences are self-contradictory.

>dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting >counsel from Galadriel and

Again and again and again: Lorien is not an issue in this disscussion. This disscussion is only about the relative merits/dangers of Moria vs. the Gap. I concede that only thru Moria can you get to Lorien. But Gandalf does not reveal Lorien to be a necessity in his plan.

Examine the concept of advanced scouting. Gandalf thought (ignoring all evidence) that the Fords might be held. He could send Aragorn and Legolas as advance scouts in the area. Or how about an Eagle? His scout would tell him that the Fords were not held. Then he could lead the Fellowship via the Fords just as he alone had done 2 months previously. Getting thru Rohan itself was no problem. Ugluk and his lads did it, and others argue, many more Orcs under the "watchful" eyes of Theodred and Eomer.

So you have it:

1. Moria constricted--populated by Orcs and Durin's Bane that had certainly wiped out Balin.

2. The Gap--wolves, crebain, and Saruman, but a MUCH larger area, at worst contested, and with a friendly force, the Rohirrim (again ignored by Gandalf).

As an aid in further discussion:

Please decide once and for all, is Moria less logical or more logical? Then stick to that decision.

Let me help:

1. You can say its less logical, and thus it would fool the bad guys--but then you would agree with my argument.

Or,

2. You could say it was more logical. But then you cant use the argument that it would fool the bad guys anymore.

Get it?

lilhobo

01-28-2002, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Harad

As an aid in further discussion:

Please decide once and for all, is Moria less logical or more logical? Then stick to that decision.

Let me help:

1. You can say its less logical, and thus it would fool the bad guys--but then you would agree with my argument.

Or,

2. You could say it was more logical. But then you cant use the argument that it would fool the bad guys anymore.

Get it?

harad, i havent bothered to read all this thread but i am gonna reason with u for the last time :D

1. the constriction in Moria is whooohooo the Bridge of Khazad-dum NOT exits and entrances (its NOT written but you can assume there are many of them) If the dwarves had held that, then they would have survived (go find the quotes i cant be bothered

2. secondly, rohan is not trusted by the council, since they have NO representatives at the council of elrond

3. NO one has made the arguement that gandlaf the the council used ILLOGIC to fool saruman and sauron :eek:

4. everyone (i hope) has used the LOGIC gandalf used that Saruman is a mighty wizard who is eyeing the Ring and would know his land inside out, WITHOUT having to post an orc at every square inch of the Isengard and rohan

PS. although sending a few hobbits on this mission is pretty illogical

Grond

01-28-2002, 09:02 PM

Well Harad!!! I finally get it!!! What a total crock of **** I and 90 million other Tolkien fans have been reading for the last fifty odd years. The entire logic of going through Moria is indefensible and downright wrong. The Gap of Rohan makes so much more sense that I can't believe anyone would read the LotR drivel and like or believe a single word of it. The illogic of Frodo at Amon Hen, the stupidity of allying one's self with a known enemy and covetor of the Ring (Gollum). The craziness of an entire forest and it tree herds standing up for good after countless years of silence. The absence of logic pervades the works. My God... how could I have been so blind??? :confused:

It could have been so much better had JRRT simply followed the logic of Harad and infused some sense into the works. What a stupid, asinine work. I'm throwing all my copies away. :rolleyes:

Aldanil

01-29-2002, 01:28 AM

"I Greet You at the Beginning of a Great Career" and bid congratulations on thy move to Moderation, O Mighty Mace of Morgoth! Or is that Moderatorism, perhaps, sprung forth by the bayou from the dread calm of thy deep reading, O Baleful Banger of Bauglir? I think it grand, Grond, that thus you should ascend to administrative office!

(as just another heedless leaf on the Tree of our Forum, I'm sorry for having missed the chance in the most recent election to add my vote to your victorious margin of elevation)

And, more to the thread-point at hand, I must of course concur with your wise remark on the woeful shortsightedness of us many millions of readers this half century on. Apparently, if we can just prevail upon the Grey Pilgrim himself to apologize for his obfuscation, cough it up personally and come clean at last that the real plan was leading to Lothlorien all along, then we can finally go on, go proudly now and openly on, go on down into Moria, and our dogged and doughty logician dear South may return in peace to those sun-baked sand-dunes of his far desert home, where wisdom shimmers like the promise of a distant oasis, and the hot sun of Harad burns the seeker quite blind. Until the day of that longed-for departure's arrival, I dolefully deem, all we hapless readers can hope to hear is the empty wind whistle through the Gap of Rohan...

lilhobo

01-29-2002, 01:43 AM

oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director,

only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator :eek:

Talierin

01-29-2002, 01:49 AM

No, it's because he came in third in the Moderator Election.

Grond

01-29-2002, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by lilhobo
oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director,

only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator :eek: I've never belittled the film or it's director. I've simply said it could have been better. ;)

Aldanil

01-29-2002, 06:12 AM

Though I can't claim to match the scorn-free standard of that first sentence, Hammer your honor, I have tried to say just the same as your second, if not always so simply.

Grond

01-29-2002, 05:18 PM

lilhobo, I forgot to include in my response to you that evil hammers are supposed to cause a ruckus in the forum. As for offsiding anyone, all I did was say "hut hut...... hut...hut". It was a quick count and he took himself offsides. :) :D

(To any of my friends who don't know American Football, PM me and I'll explain offsides to you.);)

Harad

01-29-2002, 11:10 PM

I guess its a shame that my posts are uninterpretable by some. There is a set of plusses and minuses for any particular path that Gandalf might choose. Two good reasons for choosing Moria are to get to Lorien and to make it a better story.

To motivate this choice, the book is cooked. I just cant agree that Orcs in a cave are any better than wolves in a gap, Durin's Bane is better than Saruman.

This could be my tagline: if anybody who stubbornly adheres to their opinion accuses me of being stubborn, then...

Grond

01-29-2002, 11:37 PM

Harad, a few moons ago on a similar thread now residing in a galaxy far, far away, I stated that the Gap of Rohan would have been a logical choice for the Fellowship to have travelled. I also stated that I felt JRRT would have written just as great a story routing the Fellowship through the Gap. You could have introduced conflict with the Dunlenders and fought packs of ravening wolves. JRRT could have had the Fellowship fight in the Battle of the Fords of Isen and rescue Theodred. There is no doubt that could have been done.

Unfortunately, that is not the route the author had the Fellowship take and all your logic about the stupidity or lack of logic of taking Moria will never change the direction of the book. It happened that way.

The Gap would have been a great choice!!

Aldanil

01-30-2002, 07:20 AM

He speaks with the glad even-handedness of a born Moderator, our Mace! :cool:

JeffF.

01-31-2002, 05:30 PM

My previous post on this subject was from the point of view of Gandalph and what he knew about the enemy situation, terrain and friendly situation at the time he made his decision. It was basically a military analysis of his decision.

This is another view. In my opinion Gandalph did not really have a 'plan' rather he was trusting in instinct and fate. He foresaw that Frodo might find help in unknown ways along his quest, as he did from Gollum and Faramir. Gandalph chose the shortest route and one where he could gain the best assistance.

Hindsight tells us that the Fellowship sojourn in Lothlorien was key to the success of the quest. Without Lembas, Elven cloaks, elven rope, and very importantly Galadriel's light Frodo and Sam would not have made their journey thru Mordor.

The route thru Rohan and Gondor offered no such similar items of similar importance. In fact it was liable to men being tempted by the Ring whose resistance to temptation would be no greater than Boromir's.

Though Gandalph probably didn't know specifically about the items Galadriel would bestow he probably had some idea that her powers would be useful. His route was probably chosen by fate, by the powers of the West and not by some analysis of the pros and cons of each course of action.

Harad

02-01-2002, 04:22 PM

There is no question that the Lorien gifts were crucial for many parts of the rest of the story. If part of Gandalf's gift of leadership was to intuit the future to that extent, then he could choose to risk a more dangerous path thru Moria to reap those rewards. That is what I believe he did.

On a sidelight, having just viewed the movie again, it was interesting how many times Boromir repeats his advice to use the Gap. This is especially so since to the movie audience the Gap doesnt have any particular meaning. Even at the last when they enter Moria and see that it is in rather worse shape than Gimli's optimistic prediction, they appear to be headed to the Gap before the Watcher in the Water intervenes. Why would PJ want to include this nifty idea? Made me sit up and take notice.

Snaga

02-01-2002, 09:13 PM

I think PJ thought that having them walk into Moria, see a few bodies and turn back was a way to increase the fear factor. I.E. convince the audience that Moria was worse than the Gap. (Is he a friend of yours?!!) This in turn prepares the audience for the perils to come... i.e. it builds suspense.

In the book JRRT does this by emphasising the pitch black of the darkness, and the yawning chasms they had to jump across, and by spending a whole chapter on 'the Journey in the Dark'.

Brown Ribbon

02-11-2002, 06:30 PM

Couple of points....

Firstly, from Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor, Gandalf talks about Sauron taking shape in Mordor before he had chance to attack Lorien and Rivendell;

'Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped if there had been no Lorien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor.'

I think this shows us that Gandalf always wanted to to take the Fellowship through Lorien, as Harad guesses.

They were in danger as soon as they left Rivendell, wherever they went they were in danger. The land was empty (Enedwaith), openly hostile (Isengard/Dunland) or unknown (Rohan). Far better to head to somewhere openly friendly with the cause. Take stock from there, then go on.
Boromir was adamant about the Gap of Rohan becuase he never saw Lorien as an ally, rather some witch realm to be feared.

Another quote, again from UT ' The Palantiri' shows why Moria was such an attraction. Concerning the power and restrictions of the seeing stones, it goes......'they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.'

Now Gandalf is very concerned with secrecy on the road, he is always aware that they can be seen, and does his best not to attract attention. Whilst choosing the routes, he would have taken both Saruman and Sauron into account. On one hand, the Misty Mountains was populated with Sauron's servants, but if they went through the Gap of Rohan they risked being caught on the other horn of the dilemma.
Gandalf seemed genuinely surprised to find that Saruman posessed the Orthanc Stone, but he surely knew that the Ithil Stone was in the hands of Sauron. UT hints as much.
If Moria could provide them with absolute secrecy from these stones (seeing as they could make nothing out in the dark) then that's another point in favour of the mines!

Thirdly, Unfinished Tales cites the presence of Sauron's servants in Moria as being 'not particularly numerous', giving the example of how Gollum was able to live undetected for a long time whilst being almost as wanted at the Barad Dur as the Bagginssssess.

Sorry if this is a bit wordy by the way. I just think that there was more to choosing Moria than a hope that Balin would be in with the kettle on and a nice seedcake cooling on the windowsill

Harad

02-11-2002, 06:39 PM

Oh boy. My favorite thread again!

I agree with BR up to the point. Then, I am amazed that the same quote can be interpreted in opposite ways:

they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.

The Fellowship needed light to find their way thru Moria, and used light, provided by Gandalf or torches, or in one case sunlight thru an opening in the chamber. This is precisely what the Palantir needed to see INSIDE Moria.

Furthermore, since the Palantir were not a synoptic (wide-field) viewing device but could be used to focus in on a particular spot, Moria was a FAR better target than the wide open spaces of the Gap of Rohan to make use of the Palantir, e.g. focus the Palantir on the either of the doors of Moria and wait for a party carrying a torch to appear.

Brown Ribbon

02-11-2002, 06:51 PM

they were guided by a faint light from Gandalf's staff, which sounds to me to be about as candescant as a maglite. I don't think they would have been particualarly noticeable. Certainly it would have been difficult for Saruman/Sauron to make out much beyond Gandalf's bearded chops, so crucial intelligence like the number of the Fellowship, their races etc. would have remained hidden.

Assuming, of course, that their cover wasn't already blown

Harad

02-11-2002, 07:02 PM

What is easier to see than a light in an otherwise completely dark environment? And what about the chamber with the sunlight shining in? A perfect place to focus the palantir.

Snaga

02-11-2002, 09:35 PM

Harad

Do you think that Sauron focused in on one of the Gates of Moria, and kept staring at it relentlessly for days, if not weeks until someone came by?

Just interested because that's how it sounds. Add that to:
- it takes a lot of concentration to keep focused, so no distractions (like running Mordor)
- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?'

aragil

02-11-2002, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?'

Of course Sauron wouldn't say that. Grishnakh couldn't be trusted with a burnt out match.
And Harad, Goodgulf's light is clearly described as being 'half as bright as a dead firefly'. Not the sort of thing that you could pick up in the Palantir. At least, no brighter than the gleam in the Ballhog's eyes.

Harad

02-11-2002, 09:48 PM

Fellows, fellows, let stop bickering, about who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy ocassion.

The Palantir argument was meant to be a contrast between using the Palantir in Moria or using the Palantir in the Gap. Every objection you give to using the Palantir in Moria gets multiplied for using it in the Gap.

Snaga

02-13-2002, 01:00 AM

Fair enough - I just wanted to illustrate that the Palantir wasn't like having a radar on all the time.

Anyway I wanted to look at this from a slightly different perspective. Harad, you like the argument 'JRRT steered them into Moria because it was good for the plot'. On one hand I'm not too keen on that because its not arguing the logic within the book, and on the other hand it suggests JRRT couldn't make a good story about going through the Gap.

On the third hand, it actually is quite true. I'm getting my teeth into some of HoME - in particular Vol 7 Treason of Isengard. I haven't got 1-6. I found 7-9 in a bookshop in Stratford-upon-Avon, and bought them without hesitation. Anyway...

Its clear that Moria was one of the key locations that JRRT wanted to get into the story right from the outset. Its one of the things that, after publication of the Hobbit, readers always wanted to know about. The Fellowship were going through Moria before the Gap existed, before Saruman existed, before Frodo was called Frodo!

Interesting things to note:
- At one stage JRRT envisaged the Balrog to have been sent by Sauron quite recently
- At another point he was to have Gandalf fight a nazgul on the bridge
- In one draft Aragorn was pro- and Gandalf anti-Moria
- The Balrog started quite small (man-high) but got bigger in re-writes
- In one version Legolas takes a hit from an orc arrow as they run to the bridge
- etc etc

Getting into Moria was never an issue. However Tolkien paused for a long time, before writing how they got back out again.

Anyway, that's my way of posting how fascinating these books are. In some parts you get close to the page turner quality of LotR: you know what JRRT will eventually decide on, but y