Gandalf's diminished awareness

[jagdl]

While several alterations bothered me greatly (e.g. making Frodo a teenager, reducing the time Frodo held the ring to what appears to be just a few weeks, turning Merry and Pippin into comic relief, eliminating the planning going into Frodo's trip to Rivendell, giving Elrond open disdain for the Dunedain, and making the ring something everyone can just a) swing axes at (though I know dwarves were supposed to be resistant to the rings' lure), b) offer to give away freely (Frodo to Aragorn in addition to the two times in the book), c) be carelessly tossed into the air, or d) be given back by Boromir, of all people--it kind of understates the power of the thing, doesn't it?)), I was most bothered by Gandalf being turned into an idiot who immediately spilled the beans to Saruman.

[jagdl]

While a lot of the history of Gandalf's uneasy relationship with Saruman didn't appear until later in The Lord of the Rings (or until The Simarillion or Unfinished Tales ), even in "The Shadow of the Past" he refers to "something always held [him] back" when he considered discussing Bilbo's find with Saruman.

Gandalf's greatest attributes as a Wizard appeared to be 1) his ability to inspire others to take courage and act (aided, of course, by his ring), and 2) his ability to divine the thought and intentions of others. I would have greatly preferred to see more of those attributes, coupled with a better grasp of what needed to be done (e.g. Moria as the route to take), than witness wizardly jujitsu.

[aragil]

I don't really think that Frodo was reduced to a teenager in the movie, but more to a hobbit fresh from his tweens (just like in the book). If you figure the ratio of his current age to that of his life expectancy, then Elijah Woods is exactly the age that Frodo appears to be in the books (or actually is in the movie, since he doesn't age the 17 years after the party).
I did not think that Merry and Pippin were just comic relief in the movie. They had funny moments in the movie, but most of those moments were there in the books as well. I would say that as characters they accomplished as much in the movie as they did in the first book.
Why are you upset that Frodo offers the ring to Aragorn in the movie, after he does the same to Gandalf and Galadriel (and Aragorn at the council) in the book? Similarly, why are you upset at the ring getting tossed in the air? Tom Bombadil seemed quite capable of tossing it around and even making it disappear in the book. I liked the fact that Boromir actually became more acquainted with the ring in the movie. This helped me to see that Boromir was not just some power-hungry son of a steward. He was a good man, who came under the spell of the ring, and eventually paid the ultimate price for it. Doesn't seem to belittle the ring's power at all to me.
I do not think that Gandalf was portrayed as an idiot in the movie. In the books, his actions over the past 50 years clue Saruman in to the point were he figures out where the ring is. In the movie Gandalf tells Saruman while seeking his council. Either way, it's Gandalf's actions that lead to Saruman knowing that a halfling carries the ring. This is not idiocy, it is the fact that even the greatest 'people' make mistakes. You might as well say that Tolkien made Gandalf an idiot by having him go into Moria.

[Greenwood]

jagdl

I do not think Gandalf is portrayed as an idiot in either the movie or the book, however, if the charge was going to be made, what you cite from the book would make the stronger case. As you say Gandalf tells Frodo that something always held him back from discussing Bilbo's ring with Saruman, thus indicating some suspicion of Saruman. Yet in the book Gandalf then rides blithely into Isengard in response to Saruman's summons. It seems to me a stronger case can be made for this being silly than for Gandalf being a fool for "spilling the beans" in the movie as you put it.

[legendz28]

I think the changes in the movie is for the best. There are those of us that are real fans and actually get more out of reading and there are those that like to watch movies instead. If they had tried to put everything from the book into the movie, just Fellowship would have been like 10 hours long.

Also I don't think Gandalf was an idiot. I think he's just underestimated in the movie by everyone, while in the book there is more of a description of the power he has.

Also I think merry and pippin being comical is pretty key because in the book they start out as regular hobbits which are pretty comical and carefree by nature but by the end when they are officially part of the Mark and Gondor they mature to be actual soldiers so hopefully in the next two movies they capture that transformation.

What I didn't like was the Balrog scene. What was the deal with Gandalf letting go? In the book he was dragged down in the midst of the Balrog. In the movie it seems like the Balrog is long gone and Gandalf just drops down for no reason.

Also I think Boromir giving the ring back was key. They showed that Strider was ready to kill him if he hadn't, and I'm sure a warrior like Boromir would have noticed Striders hand on his sword which would have helped to pursuade him to give the ring back.

[Greenwood]

What I didn't like was the Balrog scene. What was the deal with Gandalf letting go? In the book he was dragged down in the midst of the Balrog. In the movie it seems like the Balrog is long gone and Gandalf just drops down for no reason.

I never thought Gandalf was just letting go. I always took it that he was too exhausted from his fight with the balrog to hang on. Now the movie could have made that more explicit by lengthening the scene and showing his fingers slipping, but it would have distracted some from his "Fly you fools." Now this is going to sound a bit contradictory, but I guess the movie should have done something differently to show Gandalf couldn't hold on since so many people have interpreted the scene as Gandalf purposely letting go.

[jagdl]

Perhaps the term "idiot" was a bit harsh, but I stand by my point, which is that in the books, Gandalf is both more discerning, and, forgive the oxymoron, cautiously bold. Going into Moria may have led to his destruction by the Balrog (or so things seemed at the time), but remember when his foresight was later questioned, Aragorn pointed out Gandalf's acts were never based on his thoughts of personal safety. Whether Gandalf's tendency to take necessary risks to himself for the good of all (leading the fellowship to Moria, going to Isengard to talk to Saruman about how the Nazgul's appearance (though without intent to reveal the whereabouts of the Ring), going into Dol Gulder, and leading a march of a few thousand to the Black Gate) were partly the result of being chastised by Manwe in the west upon trying to beg out of being sent to Middle-Earth partly because he was afraid of Sauron, is a question of character motivation I'll save for another time and forum.

[legendz28]

They don't really show that the fight exhausted gandalf because they skipped the fact that gandalf first cast a lock spell on the door when they fled to get away from the balrog the first time, and then he tried to deny the balrog passage over the bridge too. In the book I got the idea that he was dragged down by the Balrog's whip. In the movie he gets dragged to the edge, and then the Balrog drops into the dark and Gandalf almost looks like he's going to be okay and climb up. And it seems like they are out of danger and he's just going to climb out (even though I knew better from reading the book) and then he tells them to flee and lets go.

In the book they say that both he and the Balrog fell in the midst of each other not that the balrog fell and was gone.

[jagdl]

And, sorry, but Merry and Pippin were reduced to silliness. Yes, Pippin was a "Fool of a Took" in the books, but the pair were introduced as Frodo's friends helping him plan the move to Crickhollow, all the while having learned by their own devices about the Ring, Sauron, the need to perform heroic acts, and a mature, calculated decision to bear such risks. In the book, they act like adults, even if they aren't able to meet threats without assistance, and even if Pippin has a curiousity that encourages him to some foolish acts. It seems in the movie, at least up until they sacrifice themselves to the Uruk-Hai, so Frodo can escape, they're truants along for the ride as a result of accident and having nothing better to do.

[Tar-Steve]

Just popping in to mention that in the book Frodo does offer the ring to Aragorn. At the Council of Elrond he says to Aragorn: "Then it belongs to you". Not only is Frodo willing to give the ring to Aragorn, he's still actively looking for someone to relieve him of the ringbearer's responsbiility.

[Greenwood]

They don't really show that the fight exhausted gandalf because they skipped the fact that gandalf first cast a lock spell on the door when they fled to get away from the balrog the first time

This is a scene I am willing to bet was shot and cut from the final release. If you watch carefully when they are first fleeing the balrog you will notice that as the Fellowship leaves the large chamber Aragorn and Gandalf are the last to leave and go through an open door. There is a split second impression that the two of them are stopping at the door. We then cut to Boromir rushing down some stairs and teetering on the brink of a drop off with the rest following. Once again bringing up the rear is Aragorn and Gandalf, only now Gandalf is staggering in apparent exhaustion and tells Aragorn to lead them. Another thing to wait for on the DVD.

[shadowfax54]

In the book Frodo was just out of his tweens at Bilbo's party, but he was 50 when he left with the ring.

[Greenwood]

In the book Frodo was 33 at Bilbo's party. (They shared a birthday and it was a double party.) Once Frodo came into possession of the Ring he stopped aging, so he should still look 33, even though he was no 50. (Of course the movie did away with those extra 17 years so they don't really matter anyway.) A couple of weeks ago a member of the forum (my apologies for not remembering who) did some mathematical calculations based on the reported normal lifespans of hobbits (longer than ours) and assuming a proportionally slower aging process. The result of the calculations was that Frodo should physically appear to be around 20 years old! Pretty much dead on with the movie.

[Ged]

Re: Frodo's age. Don't forget also that most hobbits are not meant to have facial hair! (I believe the continual thrice a day shaving was a bit of a pain for the actors!) Despite Frodo being 50, I never myself imagined him as "middle-aged" in human parlance. I suppose the only jarring thing is that he is meant to be older than Sam and Merry and Pippin, why partly explains his authority over them and also the occasional "Mr Frodo"s.

Still. none of this matters, because I thought EW was excellent.

[aragil]

Originally posted by Greenwood
A couple of weeks ago a member of the forum (my apologies for not remembering who) did some mathematical calculations based on the reported normal lifespans of hobbits (longer than ours) and assuming a proportionally slower aging process. The result of the calculations was that Frodo should phyically appear to be around 20 years old! Pretty much dead on with the movie.

Mike B did the calculations, and I pointed out that Hobbits 'come of age' at 33, which would be similar to 18-21 in our society.

[Greenwood]

Aragil

Thank you. I thought it was Mike B and you but I didn't want to give the credit to the wrong person and I didn't want to leave the impression that I had thought of it.