Who do you think was stronger?

[Beleg Strongbow]

At the top of their powers who do you think was stronger Gandalf or Saruman? By stronger i mean wisest and most powerful?

[Lantarion]

Welcome to the forum, Beleg Cúthalion! :)
It is mentioned in the Silmarillion, and definately in Unfinished Tales, that Gandalf was sent as the wisest, and Saruman was sent as the most powerful. But when Ilúvatar (or somebody) reincarnated Olorin/Gandalf into the White Rider, he became the most powerful of the Istari.

[Legolam]

I think somewhere in LOTR Galadriel says that she wanted Gandalf to be leader of the Council, but the vote went against her, or something like that.

Anyone have any ideas why Saruman was chosen instead, seeing as even then a powerful elf queen could see that Gandalf was better? :confused:

[Walter]

Funny how this is almost the same topic as the other thread here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2038). And of course my answer is the same: I should like to think that all Ainur were more or less equal - save Melkor maybe - at the beginning. But they attended and hence developed their "areas of interest" differently - according to their tasks, duties or likings, etc. So the question "who was more powerful IMO is a sort of a mind-trap. What power are we referring to anyway? Physical or muscular power? Mental power? Power of speech and convincing others? Power of unscrupulousness? All of them?

What my point is? Well, IMO there is no measurement for power hence the question "who was more powerful" cannot be answered for real...

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Walter
Funny how this is almost the same topic as the other thread [url=http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2038]here[/i]. And of course my answer is the same:



Well and rightly said
thanx

[Walter]

ooops - sorry for the messed up link - I just corrected it...

[Grond]

originally posted by Walter
I should like to think that all Ainur were more or less equal - save Melkor maybe - at the beginning. But they attended and hence developed their "areas of interest" differently - according to their tasks, duties or likings, etc. So the question "who was more powerful IMO is a sort of a mind-trap. What power are we referring to anyway? Physical or muscular power? Mental power? Power of speech and convincing others? Power of unscrupulousness? All of them?

What my point is? Well, IMO there is no measurement for power hence the question "who was more powerful" cannot be answered for real...I disagree with you on this one Walter. In the Valaquenta it very clearly states 1) "The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Vala... The names of the Lords in due order is Manwe, Ulmo, Aule..." 2) "With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree..." These quotes seem to indicate that the upon thier creation, Iluvatar had already decieded a hierchy both within the Valar and established the the Maiar were the "people" or the "vassals" of the Valar.

[Walter]

Grond,

I am not sure we do disagree. Were not the Maiar Ainur as well as the Valar? Before Ilúvatar had made Eä there is no distinguishing among the Ainur in the Ainulindalë. And that is what I referring to with my statement. The very moment the world was created and some of the Ainur are being dedicated to it, Valar and Maiar are being distinguished. And that is what You are referring to.
Grond, You and I being both human beings are "more or less equal". Now if You would let's say become president of the US and ol me just being a little computer consultant would I not be still "of the same order but of lesser degree"?

[Gothmog]

Grond I don't think that Iluvatar decided on a Hierachy of the Valar and the Maiar. The hierachy was of the Ainur before there was even the music. When the Ainur who decided to go down into arda the Hierachy simply went with them.

Other than that, I agree.

[Bombadillodillo]

Tolkien gives the answer to this and Gandalf. Gandalf the Grey says himself that Saruman the White was the most powerful of their order. But Gandalf the Grey died and became or remanifested himself as the White after he (?) died and Saruman had changed to many colors. Gandalf took on Saruman's form. When I began writing this I thought Gandalf was clearly more powerful, but I see that comparison may be futile. They were both at different times White. Therefore I would say that their powers were similar at their height. I would tend to think that Gandalf was the greater simply because he did not fall, or should I rather say because he arose the wiser and mightier from his fall, whereas Saruman never arose from his descent into the abyss even though Gandalf had given him the chance.

[Walter]

Gothmog: I never got it that there was a hierarchy among the Ainur - except for Melkor who is once called the "mightiest of the Ainur" - but after re-reading those passages it could be taken that way as well...

Bombadillo: Did Gandalf say that Saruman was the "most powerful" or did he say that Saruman was the "greatest" of the order? And which power are You referring to, btw.?

[Jago]

Hi! I agree I believe Gandalf wasn't powerful before he was Grey, but after coming back as The white rider I believe He then was stronger then Saruman of many colours. Thanxs:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Jago
Hi! I agree I believe Gandalf wasn't powerful before he was Grey, but after coming back as The white rider I believe He then was stronger then Saruman of many colours. Thanxs:)


I think in the unfinished tales gandalfwas sent by manwe and varda and he didn't think he could beat Sauron so he tried to decline butn Manwe could see further then anyone else and new that he would be the most powerful Saruman was sent by Aule and he was most like him with great skill of hand. But loved most what he made and was sometimes blinded in greed/pride like aule with the dwarves.

[Snaga]

I don't have a source for this, but I think that Gandalf didn't want to be head of the White Council, so Saruman was elected unopposed. Can anyone confirm that?

PS The White Council didn't meet for 60 odd years (basically after Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur at the time of The Hobbit). I know Saruman was going bad at the time. But you'd think the rest of them would have wanted to get together wouldn't you?

[Bombadillodillo]

Did Gandalf say that Saruman was the "most powerful" or did he say that Saruman was the "greatest" of the order? And which power are You referring to, btw.?

Well it does seem their powers were different. Saruman was clearly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey as their infamous meeting at Orthanc shows, which resulted in Gandalf's imprisonment.

Their powers were different and so comparison is difficult. It is clear that Gandalf's ability to rouse and unite the Ents and the Rohimir against Saruman to his downfall showed that Gandalf chose the wiser and better route. Thus, it seems, that Gandalf's choice both of means and ends proves him the greater of the two, and that suffices for me.

[Bombadillodillo]

Remember too that Melkor was the greatest among the Ainur, but he too was brought to ruin. Perhaps a better question is whether it matters who is more powerful at their height. Is all that matters how they fared in the end?

[Walter]

VoK: Yes it is true - Gandalf refused to become head of the Council...

And Curunir (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons. But Saruman now began to study tile lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history.Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power

--------

Bombadillo: What I was trying to point out is that "power" per se isn't well enough defined - and IMO not definable - hence the question "Who is more powerful" cannot be answered without making the mistake of comparing apples with pears...

[Snaga]

Bombadillodillo posts:

It is clear that Gandalf's ability to rouse and unite the Ents and the Rohimir against Saruman to his downfall showed that Gandalf chose the wiser and better route.

I don't disagree although in point of fact it is Merry and Pippin who are the trigger that rouses the Ents. This is an example of the Halflings rising from their fields to shake the counsels of the wise. Noone was more shaken than Saruman I think! Perhaps also it is Gandalf's foresight about the value of hobbits, when noone else pays any attention to them that is his single best move?

[Lantarion]

Geting back to Walter's post: I think the White Council took a risk by appointing Saruman as the chief, because I think they knew he was more power-hungry and corruptable a Maia than Olórin; but they needed someone who wasn't as cut-off from the rest of the world like Gandalf, and who knew "the devices of Sauron" really well. Gandalf was simply concentrating on calmly doing his appointed task, without making it more complicated like Saruman did. I think the final time they should've noticed Saruman's treachery was when he was reluctant to let the Istari attack Dol Guldur in Mirkwood. Nasty bugger.. :D

[Snaga]

Pontifex

I don't agree that they thought Saruman was 'power-hungry'. Anything as obviously dodgy as that and they'd have been much more careful. Its clearly a surprise to all including Gandalf that Saruman goes bad.

I also don't agree that Gandalf was 'cut-off from the rest of the world' , 'concentrating on calmly doing his appointed task', and that excluded him from leading the White Council. Far from being cut-off, it was Gandalf who got out and about while Saruman shut himself away at Orthanc. And Gandalf's appointed task was to oppose Sauron.

No, I think that Gandalf was wary about relying on the Wise to defeat Sauron. Although he wanted to work with them, he didn't see in them the power to defeat Sauron.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Pontifex
1) I don't agree that they thought Saruman was 'power-hungry'. Anything as obviously dodgy as that and they'd have been much more careful. Its clearly a surprise to all including Gandalf that Saruman goes bad.
2) I also don't agree that Gandalf was 'cut-off from the rest of the world' , 'concentrating on calmly doing his appointed task', and that excluded him from leading the White Council. Far from being cut-off, it was Gandalf who got out and about while Saruman shut himself away at Orthanc. And Gandalf's appointed task was to oppose Sauron.
3) No, I think that Gandalf was wary about relying on the Wise to defeat Sauron. Although he wanted to work with them, he didn't see in them the power to defeat Sauron.

V of K, 1) I agree with you that none of the wise suspected Saruman was corrupt or thirsting for power or they would never have appointed him. It is apparent though that he began to lust after the Ring shortly after taking the position. 2) Gandalf was unwilling to setlle down and might not be available to attend important meetings and assignments since he operated very independently from the rest, unlike Saruman who had made a permanent residence at Orthanc. 3) Gandalf and all the Istari were sent to help rally and advise the residents of Middle-earth on ways to rid themselves of the evil of Sauron. I agree with you again because Gandalf felt that the Wise would be important but that the roles of the "normal" residents of Middle-earth would play just as important a role; hence his interest in the "normal" Hobbits. :)

In other words, IMHO..... I agree with all your statements.;)

[Snaga]

Grond:

In other words, IMHO..... I agree with all your statements.

It was bound to happen one day - law of averages!:D

[Grond]

Ahh c'mon VoK. You and I are usually pretty close in our general opinions. We disagree only in the details. ;)

[Snaga]

True enough O Wise one!:) (I think people who agree with me are VERY wise!) ;)

[Erohwen]

It is my understanding that the Maiar including Olorien who later becomes Gandalf, are in fact lesser then the Valar. Though at first Tolkein says all the Ainur are equal he contradicts himself by then by telling us that Melkor is powerful, then Manwe etc. So you might infer that at the very first moment they are all equal but as the music draws out and they are futher born of his thought each obtains his own power and some more then others. BUt he does clearly state that the Maiar come after the Valar as they are making the world.

As for power it is definitely said that Suraman is more powerful and it is also because of his great knowledge of the lore of the ring which makes him the likeliest head of the council.

As for power of will though I think that Gandalf is certainly the better of the two for he resists temptation to weild the ring even if it be for good and sees the folly of trying to have anything to do with Sauron or the ring save to destroy it.

[Bucky]

>>>>PS The White Council didn't meet for 60 odd years (basically after Sauron was
driven out of Dol Guldur at the time of The Hobbit). I know Saruman was going
bad at the time. But you'd think the rest of them would have wanted to get
together wouldn't you?


But, it wasn't like all they had to do was meet via a conference call.

On the White Council:
I believe what it says on Saruman being made head of the White Council is simply that Galadriel would've chosen Gandalf over Saruman 'if her plans had not gone awry'.
I never read that Gandalf refused.

Also, Gandalf the Grey plainly states "Saruman the Wise is the greatest of my order".
Would the Mayor of a city expect to be apponted to head a state-wide committee that included the Governor?
Makes no sense.

[Grond]

Sorry Bucky but it plainly states in either the Sil or the UT that Gandalf was indeed picked by Galadriel to head the council and the Gandalf refused and that Saruman held it against him ever after. I'll find you the quote but I assure you that it is there.

[Bucky]

I believe what it says is that Galadriel WANTED Gandalf & Saruman held that against him.

Check it out if you can find it, we'll see.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Bucky
I believe what it says is that Galadriel WANTED Gandalf & Saruman held that against him.

Check it out if you can find it, we'll see. Bucky, here's your proof... it is from Walter, about 11 posts up.
originally posted by Walter.
And Curunir (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons. But Saruman now began to study tile lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history.
Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Bombadillodillo
Did Gandalf say that Saruman was the "most powerful" or did he say that Saruman was the "greatest" of the order? And which power are You referring to, btw.?

Well it does seem their powers were different. Saruman was clearly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey as their infamous meeting at Orthanc shows, which resulted in Gandalf's imprisonment.

Their powers were different and so comparison is difficult. It is clear that Gandalf's ability to rouse and unite the Ents and the Rohimir against Saruman to his downfall showed that Gandalf chose the wiser and better route. Thus, it seems, that Gandalf's choice both of means and ends proves him the greater of the two, and that suffices for me.



Yes i agree
Thanx

[Bucky]

>>>Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head
of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride
and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused
the office,

I remember that now. Is it in 'Of The Rings of Power & the 3rd Age'?

But, where does it say Gandalf was chosen?
It simply says Galadriel WISHED that he be head, not that he WOULD have been if he didn't refuse.

So, it really doesn't prove anything except Gandalf took himself out of the running. Never that he was chosen to lead it & then refused.

It's kind of like saying "George Washington would've had a 3rd term as president if he wanted."
No, he would've been nominated by his party & still faced the election process, which actually would've made him president.

[Snaga]

So who is actually on the White Council anyway?

Definites are Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond. Can anyone name anyone else for certain?

[Mormegil]

I'm pretty sure that Cirdan would have been in the White Council, being old and wise, and a former ringbearer.

Perhaps Glorfindel would also have been involved, he seems to have been pretty important around Rivendell.

Also there probably would have been a place for Radagast the Brown on the Council although I'm not sure if he attended.

[Bucky]

Glorfindel was most definitely a member; he states it in The Council of Elrond.

Speaking of Saruman, Glorfindel says:
"For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were on a crooked path. He knew that the ring was not lost for ever; but wished US to think so..."

I would guess Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, Glorfindel & possibly some other Noldorian High Elves & the sons of Elrond, plus Saruman, Gandalf & Radagast & the Blue Wizards (if any of those 3 could be found).

[Grond]

Originally posted by Bucky
>>>Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, I remember that now. Is it in 'Of The Rings of Power & the 3rd Age'? But, where does it say Gandalf was chosen? It simply says Galadriel WISHED that he be head, not that he WOULD have been if he didn't refuse.

So, it really doesn't prove anything except Gandalf took himself out of the running. Never that he was chosen to lead it & then refused.

It's kind of like saying "George Washington would've had a 3rd term as president if he wanted." No, he would've been nominated by his party & still faced the election process, which actually would've made him president. Bucky, I would say that the quote is a clear indication that Gandalf was offered the position and refused. Galadriel would surely have been high in the Council and her desire (wish) to have Gandalf as head would have been considered. Make of it as you will. I think he was offerred and refused. Also why would Saruman begrudge Galadriel for supporting Gandalf if he had the support of all the other members? It sounds like he was pissed that he was second choice and not first. That's the way I see it.

[Bucky]

>>>>Bucky, I would say that the quote is a clear indication that Gandalf was offered
the position and refused.

I disagree.
Galadriel says in TLOR, "I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey..."
Sounds to me like more 'went amiss' than Gandalf refusing.
Wouldn't she have said 'If he had not refused, it would have been governed by Gandalf" unless more was there than just Gandalf's refusal?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
So who is actually on the White Council anyway?

Definites are Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond. Can anyone name anyone else for certain? Originally posted by Walter
The Sil is not utterly specific about that, it just says: ...the White Council, and therein were Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir.