How would Gandalf have got into Mordor?

[Snaga]

One thing that I guess has always been troubling for me is how little the Fellowship had by way of a plan. It seems that the idea was 'get to Lorien, and then work it out from there'.

So what would Gandalf have done, if he had got through Moria? I think the boat trip would have been much the same, but what then.

Would Frodo have left Gandalf as well as the rest of them?
How would Gandalf have tried to get into Mordor? He didn't like the idea of Cirith Ungol.
Would Boromir have still tried to take the ring if Gandalf was breathing down his neck?

What do you all think?

[Harad]

Good What If, VofK.

Everything would have been different. It wouldnt have been as good a story--kudos to JRRT. Someone else pointed out...apologize for not remembering...that Gandalf falling was essential to the subsequent split of the Fellowship and all the kwl stuff that followed. I agree wholeheartedly.

I believe that Boromir would not have gotten the opportunity to go ballistic, nor would he have been in that mental state, because the authority figure of the Fellowship would have remained. Becsaue of the tension between B and Aragorn there in fact was no authority left.

Gandalf would have accompanied Frodo and Sam. I think he would have convinced all the others to accompany Boromir to Minas Tirith or Rohan. Aragorn would have been the toughest to convince, but with Gandalf with the Ringbearer, he could have seen his way clear to go where his heart lay...to Minas Tirith. (BTW this reminds me of the problem I have with Aragorns decision to abandon the Ringbearer despite Gandalf NOT being there.)

Gandalf on the way to Mount Doom would have been fascinating. I cant imagine how he could succeed unless he had a lot more magic tricks up his sleeve. He probably did. And what about Gollum? He couldnt have been a member of the party with Gandalf there? Still sneeeaaaking along behind no doubt. So no Cirith Ungor, and no Shelob...Its a puzzle.

[Kuduk]

The question of how Gandalf would have gotten into Mordor becomes even more intriguing when in RotK, Gandalf hears from Faramir about Frodo's plans to go via Cirith Ungol. Afterwards, Pippin asks him...

'Tell me,' he said, 'is there any hope? For Frodo, I mean; or at least mostly for Frodo.'
Gandalf put his hand on Pippin's head. 'There never was much hope,' he answered. 'Just a fool's hope, as I have been told. And when I heard of Cirith Ungol ----' He broke off and strode to the window, as if his eyes could pierce the night in the East. 'Cirith Ungol!' he muttered. 'Why that way, I wonder?'

So, sure, one could suppose that Gandalf would have taken a different way into Mordor if he were with them. But he's not and he knows that. Of course, Gandalf can fret and worry about Frodo's choice of ingress but why does he 'wonder' why? Did he expect Frodo to take a different path and if so, which one? The Morannon? Surely, Gandalf must have realized the difficulties of passaging via Mordor's front door. And Morgul Vale would have been barely less difficult. I doubt Gandalf would have wanted Frodo to use the Ring as an aid so what other options did Gandalf have in mind when he questions Frodo's logic and asks 'Why that way, I wonder?'

[Beleg Strongbow]

I thought that Gandalf and Elrond spent all those times long in thought before they left that they would have had some thought to were they could have entered which im sure gandalf probably would have dropped some info to Aragorn. But i also think Gandalf would have had a lot waiting on Galadriels opinion cause she hasknown about Sauron eversince he turned evil. But i think he would have tried maybe to force a passage through the mountains not through the gates. Because of Morgul- Nazgul, Morranon-utter strenght and masses of orcs and evil creatures, ungol- shelob and the "terror" there and also 4 ungol and morgul the lidless eye would be looking that way down to Minas Tirith.
But Tolkien could have made anything i also agree the story wouldn't have been better if Gandalf didn't fall.
P.S Tolkien probably wrote some ideasabout how gandalf would have gotten in anybody know about it:confused:
Holla.

[lilhobo]

one thing you people have forgotten, JRR never wanted the fellowship to succeed, what with the introduction of Boromir, and gandalf taking a dive in Moria!!!! (if Gandalf hadnt taken the dive, we would never have heard of Obe wan kenobi :D

JRR always wanted to have Frodo and his luverboy Sam :D on the quest by themself and have Gollum finish off what was a tragic bittersweet tale

what was the most poignant moments in the book is the dual personalities of smeagol. Just hope Pj can bring it out in the next two books

[Snaga]

The way Harad approached this is interesting. I tend to agree with his post.

But it raises all sorts of questions: Pippin and Merry would never have agreed to seperate from Frodo and Sam - so would Gandalf be leading all 4 hobbits to Mordor?

When Uruk-Hai turned up would the Fellowship have beaten them off successfully, and avoided M&P getting captured? I think so. Hence no trip to Rohan. No Entmoot. Theoden stays at Edoras under Wormtongue's influence. Hence Saruman defeats Rohan and Gondor faces Mordor alone.

Boromir survives, and Aragorn goes to Minas Tirith direct with him, so no Paths of the Dead, so the corsairs fleet arrives.

Overall result: Minas Tirith falls!!

[Arathorn]

There is no doubt that Gandalf's fall and rebirth as the White Rider were crucial to the ultimate successes, nevertheless the question remains as to how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor. The one fact that we know is that he would not have gone through Cirith Ungol. I have always supposed that he either knew another unmentioned passage over or under the mountains, or he intended to go around the mountains and enter from the South or the East.

[Snaga]

Lets assume Gandalf may have been able to keep M&P from going. And I can agree about Aragorn seeing that Saruman was a threat and needing to be dealt with.

But I don't see why M&P would end up in Fangorn without the orc raid. So you would have to have the orc raid hitting after Gandalf and F&S had headed east. Which, if you think about it might work because maybe if they didn't spend time grieving for Gandalf (because he didn't go down in Moria), then they get to Rauros earlier, and can have made their choices before the Uruk-Hai arrive.

I think it is harder to think that Aragorn could have dealt with Wormtongue. At this point in the story he still not cutting a very impressive figure. Maybe.

But returning to M&P not going east with F&S. I think that they were both completely determined to follow Frodo through thick and thin and Gandalf would have found it really hard to persuade them. Perhaps he would tie them up in sacks, as per Merry suggestion to Elrond?

[DGoeij]

To throw in another thought. What of Gollem? He sure wouldn't be eager to come too close with Gandalf in the party. So what would he do?
Without Gollem I don't think even Gandalf would be able to cross the dead marshes.
Or would they even have crossed the Anduin at the point where Frodo did? I mean, F & S ended up in the Emyn Muil, wich is very difficult terrain to go through. Maybe Gandalf would have chosen to cross the Anduin more to the north and travel further east, to get around the mountains of Mordor? I mean, originally the Fellowship travelled so far south only because Aragorn couldn't decide what to do and deliberately waited until he had to make up his mind.
Interesting 'what if', but difficult too.

[DGoeij]

I didn't meant to discuss the ability of Gollum to sneak after the travellers. I am sure he would be able to, regardless of whom would be leading them.
What I meant that Gollum would be quite scared of Gandalf (he questioned him pretty harshly as I recall) so he would keep his distance. So he would not be helping the travellers crossing the dead marshes, if they would get there in the first place, which is something I doubt too.

oh, and Gandalf wasn't allowed to counter Sauron directly with his own powers. He was supposed to aid those in ME who would withstand Sauron by themselves.

[Snaga]

I didn't meant to discuss the ability of Gollum to sneak after the travellers. I am sure he would be able to, regardless of whom would be leading them. What I meant that Gollum would be quite scared of Gandalf (he questioned him pretty harshly as I recall) so he would keep his distance. So he would not be helping the travellers crossing the dead marshes, if they would get there in the first place, which is something I doubt too.


My view: Gollum would have followed the Ring whoever was in its company. So Gollum being captured by Frodo, Sam and Gandalf could have happened. But the interesting question could be what they would have done with him once they'd captured him. Would Gandalf have let Gollum come with them? At first sight you have to say no. But actually, Frodo's choice was not instinctive. He ruled out, through Gandalf's famous words, that he could not kill him. And equally he could neither tie him up in the wilderness, nor let him go. So maybe he would have done.

[Gary Gamgee]

Smeagol's part in all of this is completely crucial and Gandalf knew this or at least guessed it and he knew what he had to face in Moria. Perhaps he knew for the quest to succeed he had to become Saruman. It was Gandalf who decided that Hobbits should be invovled with the world and he decided that way back when he got Bilbo invoved in the descrution of Smaug, in order to give the Dwarfs a strong hold in the North, he -Gandalf wanted to create a barrier around Mordor to prevent Saurom from taking over the world by shree force. Because Gandalf thought the one was out of Sauron's reach. But of course he realised where he had gone wrong when he realised Bilbo's ring was the one.

Gandalf knew that he wasn't going to Mordor

[Bucky]

>>>, and Gandalf wasn't allowed to counter Sauron directly with his own powers.
He was supposed to aid those in ME who would withstand Sauron by themselves.


Gandalf wasn't about to 'hold off Sauron at the Cracks of Doom' as someone put it.

Gandalf, as stated wasn't allowed to counter Sauron directly with his own power.
He didn't have enough, even as Gandalf the White.
Why?
Remember Gandalf talking about facing the Lord of the Nazgul, a servant of Sauron, & having reservations about that?

[DGoeij]

>>>>>Gandalf successfully struggled with Sauron over Frodo and the Ring at Amon Hen. <<<<<
:confused:

What book is being discussed here? Originally Gandalf wasn't there a Amon Hen and I still doubt if the Fellowship still led by Gandalf would have ended up there.

Gandalf was a Maia, send to ME as one of the Istari, ordered to aid those who where the enemies of Sauron. That was the job. He was not allowed to use his powers to confront Sauron directly.
He was ready to face the Witch-King as Gandalf the White at the gate of Minas Tirith, he even wished to follow him back to the plains of Pelennor, if it hadn't be for the distraction of the madness of Denethor.

[Snaga]

Maybe Gandalf would have chosen to cross the Anduin more to the north and travel further east, to get around the mountains of Mordor? I mean, originally the Fellowship travelled so far south only because Aragorn couldn't decide what to do and deliberately waited until he had to make up his mind.

Sorry DG I meant to reply to this suggestion, because it is interesting. There's not lots of detail on the terrain between Mordor and Mirkwood, but the fact that they would be passing the Morannon on one side and Dol Guldur on the other is off-putting, not mentioning the Easterling armies going in the opposite direction. And then, when you get in round the back, you go a long way to go in Mordor, and right past Barad-Dur too! Not nice!

This would be a long way round too. I think the time factor might be decisive - remember the route south of the White Mountains was ruled out for this reason.

[DGoeij]

The Easterlings, of course.
It was an army big enough to besiege the Erebor, so I guess the Fellowship wouldn't want to encounter some loose patrols of it. I don ot knwo anything about the terrain there, so if the Fellowship would be able to avoid this army..........

And looking to Mordor. You may be right about getting too close to Barad-dur. But wouldn't that have helped them? I mean, Sauron was clearly looking West, watching what Saruman was up to, what his armies where doing etc. Still it remains a long way to go nonetheless, but the fact that Gandalf wouldn't let them stay in Lothlorien for as long as they did originally would have helped in that I guess. And no delay at Emyn Muil, the Dead Marshes, The Morannon and in Ithilien. I should find out how much time it took for F & S and Gollum to get to Mt. Doom by the original path. Maybe we could do some estimates.

[Brown Ribbon]

smashing thread this...

So much of Gandalf's good work seems to have come from intuition. Wasn't it a hunch that prompted him to send the ostensibly useless Bilbo Baggins to the Lonely Mountain?
If Gandalf and Elrond had a clear strategy as to how they were going to get to Orodruin then surely Aragorn would have been briefed.
Yet on the banks of the Anduin, Aragorn flounders, unable to decide whither Mordor or Minas Tirith should be the destination of the fellowship.
My guess is that Gandalf had no clear plan beyond Lothlorien. He would have worked things out as he went along.
What would he have chosen? I haven't got a Scooby Doo on this one, but I don't think he would have left Frodo to go to Mordor without him, his compassion for the Ringbearer would have been too strong for that.
Ironically, the only way for the fellowship to break and succeed was probably for them to lose their leader for a time. Aragorn didn't fair overly well without Gandalf, though he grows in the Two Towers. The panic and uncertainty acted as a catalyst for the severence of the group, allowing Frodo and Sam to go further unnoticed than they probably would have with Gandalf in tow.
I don't think Gandalf would have been able to let them go alone, and the Quest would have been doomed.

[Eonwe]

Gandalf had many tricks up his sleeve, he was able to enter Dol-Guldur to discover it was Sauron, and oh by the way lets stop in on Thrain to see how he is doing.

I have no idea what pass he would take into Mordor (maybe the Eagles would help :)). I wonder what passes if any the north side mountains contained.

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Gandalf had many tricks up his sleeve, he was able to enter Dol-Guldur to discover it was Sauron, and oh by the way lets stop in on Thrain to see how he is doing.

I have no idea what pass he would take into Mordor (maybe the Eagles would help :)). I wonder what passes if any the north side mountains contained.

Indeed he did..
However, Frodo and Sam were able to make decisions in ignorance that would have gone against Gandalf's good judgement. By such they were able to sssneeeak up to Mount Doom by luck and courage more than wisdom.

No amount of intelligence would avail on this quest. Only luck, fate whatever led Frodo's finger into the fire, if Gandalf had been with them, we would likey have never seen the palantir of Orhtanc, and in that case, the plains of Gorgoroth would not so swiflty have been emptied of orcs. There would have been no way through Mordor, Gandalf or no.

[Eonwe]

well maybe not no way through, but you are oh so correct

the way Sam and Frodo go, Cirith Ungol, which I don't think Gandalf would have tried, is Shelob, one Orc tower and your through. Its on mapquest, quickest way to Mount Doom :)

[Brown Ribbon]

I wonder if Gandalf would have considered Cirith Ungol or no. I reckon he would have been a match for Shelob, but if his display on weathertop is anything to go by, the element of secrecy would have been gone thereafter.
And, if Sauron knew Gandalf was in Mordor, he wouldn't have suspected a motive as 'harmless' as spying.

They could not get to Oroduin by force, and they could not hide the Ring away. Gandalf probably saw all along that this was the only way, for two alone to take the road into the black land. However, he would not have let them go alone, and his compassion may have been everyone's undoing

[Eonwe]

besides that, think of yourself as Sauron (ok not really)... You are constantly looking where that grey(white) guy is going, what's he doing, because Sauron knows that Gandalf is trouble. Seeing him poking around the borders of Mordor (even if it is only slight evidence) would really get the troops moving!

But Frodo and Sam and Gollum, just slip right through. I think Gandalf thought it was best, and certainly Sauron wasn't thinking of the Ring entering his realm!

[Brown Ribbon]

Yep. there was a thread on another forum about what would have happened if Aragorn had gone to Mordor.
I think there was no other way for the Quest to succeed than the way it did. The armies of Mordor had to be taken out of the equation, and only a King revealing himself through the Orthanc Palantir could probably have caused such a sudden onslaught.
So, no capture of Merry and Pippin = No Treebeard = no victory over Saruman = no palantir = Gorgoroth teeming with Orcs.

[Harad]

Not so.
VofK and HaradtheGrey discussed a very plausible scenario in which Gandalf F&S go to Morrrdorrr, and the rest go to Gondor.

Aragorn being a great general knows he must protect his flank, and elimate the enemy at the rear, Saruman. He goes to Rohan first...P&M still end up in Fangorn. Aragorn instead of Gandalf defangs Worm and bucks up Theodan King. The rest of the story proceeds as before.

Meanwhile Gollum sneaks after Gandalf et al. Gandalf figures out a Wise and lucky way to Mount Doom. While Gandalf holds the gate against a desperately pounding Sauron, Frodo recants, and Gollum bites down hard, as before.

[DGoeij]

What wise and lucky way do you suggest?
Cirith Ungol is not an option. Gandalf would have fought Shelob, his presence therefore would have been noted by Sauron, wich would have caused much trouble.
The Morannon isn't an option either, nor the valley of Minas Morgul.
And with Gandalf away, would after the Battle of the Pelennor fields the captains of the West decide to attack Mordor? It was Gandalf who urged them to do so, drawing the forces out of Mordor. I don't think that Aragorn would have done that, knowing that Gandalf was leading the two Hobbits into Mordor, faithfull that the queste would end succesfull.

[Snaga]

I think we can give Aragorn more credit than that. After all he chose to look into the Palantir precisely because he wanted to challenge Sauron. Also Elladan and Elrohir came with the same advice from Elrond.

I am not convinced either that Gandalf can't do stealth. He is has made it into Dol Guldur by a bit of sneaking before. He has Glamdring, a blade of Gondolin which would be just as good against Shelob as Sting is without the need to resort to blasting away with fire!

In this scenario, Frodo does not get captured by the orcs of Cirith Ungol, so perhaps they are more stealthy. Or perhaps, because they don't fight over his mithril armour, they are all still alive to chase them up the Morgai?

[Harad]

One thing that I now have over Gandalf in this scenario is my "White-hood." He hasnt fallen, so he doesnt get the opportunity to go White. So we let him do so at Amon Hen! Amon Hen would not be used the same way as the real LOTR, so we use it for Gandalf to confront Sauron and go White. Gandalf tells Sauron, he is heading to Gondor to whip his butt, with the Ring. A great feint.


Next we can imagine Gandalf the White sitting in the middle of the Dead Marshes, beating his hands against the ground, "Boohoo, I cant figure out a way to get in. I am the second most powerful figure on middle earth but can't do what a trio of lucky hobbits accomplished in the other scenario." Certainly JRRT could have figured it out, even if us mummies can't.

[DGoeij]

Well, Gandalf isn't allowed to confront Sauron, White or not. Maybe he would with the Ring, but then we'd have a new Sauron. Or Gandalf the Black. New Bad guy, new story. I'm glad Tolkien figured it out better than we do.;)

[Harad]

Once again: Gandalf did "confront" Sauron, or the moral equivalent of it, when he strove with Sauron over Frodo's will on Amon Hen. Once is enuf to break that "rule" you invoked.

[Eonwe]

"Next we can imagine Gandalf the White sitting in the middle of the Dead Marshes, beating his hands against the ground, "Boohoo, I cant figure out a way to get in. I am the second most powerful figure on middle earth but can't do what a trio of lucky hobbits accomplished in the other scenario."

HAHAHAHAHHA This goes in the Harad history file...:D

[lilhobo]

no no no, thats too much sarcasm for harad.......most probably RW :D :D :D :D

[Grond]

I personally think he would simply click his heels together three times and repeat "there's no place like Mt. Doom", "there's no place like Mt. Doom", "there's no place like Mt. Doom!"
;)

[Eonwe]

"I'll get you, and your little hobbit too!"--Sauron:D

[Gary Gamgee]

"So much of Gandalf's good work seems to have come from intutication..."

I agree, Gandalf pushed Bilbo out the door to get Hobbits involved in the world outside the Shire because he guessed the threat of Sauron. At this point though he also kind of believed the words of Saruman that the ring was out of reach of Sauron and without the ring he beleived that the peoples of ME could defeat Sauron by sheer force. With that in mind remember, Gandalf was the one who wanted to go through Moria and he knew what was in there and perhaps he knew that he would fall there and return as The White. He almost definetly knew the best chance of the Ring being destroyed was in the hands of Hobbits.

[Harad]

Rather than "intutication" I lean toward intussusception or invagination. Gandalf took a more organic approach, and by that I mean carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen.

As far as Dol Guldor is concerned...let me get back to you on that. I do remember the very large Gandalf sssssssneakin into the highest security cell in Necromancer Central to talk with Thrain. So, go figure, the Grey One could sssssssssneak with the best of them.

[Eonwe]

what do you think squeeky? You know all about sneaking...

[DGoeij]

Harad, could you tell me how you came to think that it was Gandalf that put the thought in Frodo's mind at Amon Hen? I've reread the part of Frodo's struggle, but if it was Gandalf involved, how did you came to that conclusion?

I think Gandalf could get good at anything he put his mind to, so if sneaking was part of the solution, he would sneak as the best sneaker ever.

edit: Not to get this thread off topic, maybe better to PM me on the Amon Hen thing.

[Harad]

Not off topic--Gandalf capabilities:

Take it off you! Take if off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

This is at Amon Hen--a voice striving in Frodo's head. Sounds like Gandalf to me: "You fool of a Took. Throw yourself in next time." But I think there is further confirmation later in the book. Anyone. If not Gandalf, who?

And BTW see "Saruman's Military Intelliengce" for your answer about the Gap of Rohan.

[Eonwe]

Gandalf talks to Aragorn in TTT White Rider about "struggling with Sauron in a high place" or something, regarding Frodo. When I get the book I will post the quote.

[Snaga]

Gandalf does appear to use his powers with restraint. But he does not go 'head to head' with Sauron as a rule, probably because he thinks he would lose! When he struggles with Sauron when Frodo is on Amon Hen that is firstly a mental battle and secondly the objective is not to 'defeat' Sauron so much as to draw his fire so Frodo can escape.

The other thing to say is that Gandalf also prefers to get everyone else moving against the enemy, rather than to be a one man band.

Anyway....

So if G goes with F&S to Mt Doom, sneaking. I'm interested in opinions on how Gandalf would have reacted to Frodo claiming the ring. I think that he would stop Gollum getting to Frodo - Sam tries and fails, I doubt Gollum would get past Gandalf. But then Gandalf has a nightmare: Frodo claims the ring. Gandalf could scarcely persuade Bilbo to give up the ring in Bag End, what chance with Frodo on Mt Doom?

[Harad]

G does not go head to head with Sauron. He uses indirection--a diversion here, a landslide there. G is a screening force enabling F to reach the Crack. G is too preoccupied with Sauron or the 100 Orcs or the 8 Nazgul to notice Gollum sssssneak between his legs, with eyes like pale saucers, hungry for a finger.

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Harad
Not so.
VofK and HaradtheGrey discussed a very plausible scenario in which Gandalf F&S go to Morrrdorrr, and the rest go to Gondor.

Aragorn being a great general knows he must protect his flank, and elimate the enemy at the rear, Saruman. He goes to Rohan first...P&M still end up in Fangorn. Aragorn instead of Gandalf defangs Worm and bucks up Theodan King. The rest of the story proceeds as before.

Meanwhile Gollum sneaks after Gandalf et al. Gandalf figures out a Wise and lucky way to Mount Doom. While Gandalf holds the gate against a desperately pounding Sauron, Frodo recants, and Gollum bites down hard, as before.

:D :D :D

And what 'wise and lucky' way would this be?
Would it not be subject to erm.. luck?
Can we not discount knocking on the Door of the Morannon or charging the Morgul Vale with lightning shooting out of hi staff? What other ways are there into Mordor? Rhun, maybe, but that seemed to be wholly under Sauron's dominion. Cirith Ungol - they could hardly have done better with Gandalf in tow. If Gandalf could slip unnoticed into a heavily manned Mordor, sneak through the teeming plains of Gorgoroth and challenge Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin without any doubt of consience, then he was obviously hard enough to stride through the Blck Gate, knock on the Barad Door (scuse the pun) and demand 'You and whose Nazgul?' to Sauron, hence a rather one sided War of the Ring.

That's if the crows weren't picking at Gandalf's flesh after he followed General Harad through the Gap of Rohan of course. ;)

[Harad]

Nope. Gandalf was already dead after sssssneaking into Dol Guldor.

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Harad
Nope. Gandalf was already dead after sssssneaking into Dol Guldor.

okay, you have a point. :)

Can you outline the way you felt Gandalf could get into Mordor or point to the url?

Dol Guldur was not impregnable like the Barad Dur, nor was it in a time when Sauron had declared himself openly, nor did Gandlaf have to protect a hobbit with the Middle Earthen H-bomb dangling from his neck.

[Harad]

Dol Guldur was not impregnable like the Barad Dur

Obviously.

Neither was Morrrdorrr.

Obviously.

LOTR as written was set up for Hobbitsses to sneak into Morrrdorrr.

They needed to look like Orcs in Orc-duds for one.

Lets imagine how Gandalf reached the dungeon in DG to speak with Thrain--Disguised perhaps? Can we imagine that the 2nd most powerful figure in ME could disguise himself? How about as a Nazgul? Would the Orcs look a Gift Nazgul in the Mouth? "Oh no," cries of dismay. "How could Gandalf disguise himself as a Nazgul? It flies in the face of JRRT's philosophy laid down in Letter #137929 subparagraph 2, third sentence, wherein it is written 'Whatever it is, I'm against it.'"

I imagine Gandalf would proceed as close to one of the entrance as possible and take advantage of some situation--the Morgul Army leaving for example, as F&S did, and get the party in. Remember the Orcs thought a "great Elven Warrior" was loose. Therefore even if Gandalf fell or was driven back at the entrance, as long as he got F&S in one can imagine the story proceeding as before.

[Harad]

which thread, Mario?

Shrink the Gap all you want. The doors at both ends of Moria are less than 3 meters.

[Harad]

Grond is prairie-dogging again.

[lilhobo]

tskm tsk this is no to the spirit of tolkien :D

you two would be like sam and frodo, more male bonding and less antagonism,

coz remember, anger and hate will lead but to the Dark Side of the Force

[Grond]

Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot!

See Why Gandalf took the Fellowship through Moria thread!:o

[daisy]

What if he uased his big eagle buddy and just sort-of swooped in.

I am actually not joking.

Possible?

daisy 'bird of prey' posy

[Harad]

Doesnt he know he's in the wrong thread? Shhhh... I wont tell him. Er..I think he wants the Gandalf in Moria thread, not the Gandalf in Mordor thread.

[daisy]

HEY GROND HARAD SAYS YOU ARE IN THE WRONG THREAD - AND THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE GANDALF IN MORIA THING A MA JIG.

Oh, was I not supposed to say that?

Whoops! Silly redhead!

daisy the tattletale tulip:p

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Harad


Obviously.

Neither was Morrrdorrr.

Obviously.

LOTR as written was set up for Hobbitsses to sneak into Morrrdorrr.

They needed to look like Orcs in Orc-duds for one.

Lets imagine how Gandalf reached the dungeon in DG to speak with Thrain--Disguised perhaps? Can we imagine that the 2nd most powerful figure in ME could disguise himself? How about as a Nazgul? Would the Orcs look a Gift Nazgul in the Mouth? "Oh no," cries of dismay. "How could Gandalf disguise himself as a Nazgul? It flies in the face of JRRT's philosophy laid down in Letter #137929 subparagraph 2, third sentence, wherein it is written 'Whatever it is, I'm against it.'"

I imagine Gandalf would proceed as close to one of the entrance as possible and take advantage of some situation--the Morgul Army leaving for example, as F&S did, and get the party in. Remember the Orcs thought a "great Elven Warrior" was loose. Therefore even if Gandalf fell or was driven back at the entrance, as long as he got F&S in one can imagine the story proceeding as before.

okay, so i'm new here.
There are always inescribables. Harad - You give a great deal towards ME discusion, the thread about Saruman's MI is top knotch, but honestly, I do not see how Gandalf could have improved the Quest by existing. Please elaborate...

[Harad]

I do not see how Gandalf could have improved the Quest by existing

BR,

The STORY is much better because Gandalf fell in Moria.

As far as the Quest is concerned, I do not suscribe to the theory that the weaker the party is the better off they are. That theory has been used to argue that Legolas was better in the Company than Glorfindel (again it improves the story with Legolas), and now that Sam & Frodo were better off without Gandalf. If F&S&G ever reached the point where G was a detriment, he could just take off, not that I think that would ever happen. Whatever skills G used to get into DG would have to be useful in Mordor. Sure Mordor was bigger, but with bigness comes confusion, and in many case more security leaks. Look at the confusion and animosity between the Orcs of the Eye and those of the Moon.

The way the story went, F&S made it thru with incredible luck. A great story. With G it could have been something different, but it wouldnt have been as miraculously satisfying, since G was the second strongest entity on Middle Earth. It would be much less of a stretch.

And also check out,
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2346
for a discussion of whether Gandalf COULD according to the rules of JRRT contend directly with Sauron.

(oh...and...thanks...gosh)

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by Harad


The STORY is much better because Gandalf fell in Moria.



wrong again.....the STORY is better WITHOUT gandalf PERIOD, whether he fell in Moria or not....he could have gotten in a wizard duel with Saruman at the Ford of Isen, and gotten whacked

besides all that, JRR couldnt afford to have Glorfindel, a high elf in a homosexuelle relationship with a dwarf now can he??? :eek:

[Firiel]

Regarding Gandalf in Mordor: Even if he managed to sneak in with Frodo and Sam, he couldn't do anything Wizardly. Even lighting the fire on Caradhras: "I have just written 'Gandalf is here' in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin". He tries so much as to magically light a pipe in Mordor, and he would have Sauron's complete attentoion. If he had any knowlege of how to get in, that should have been given not only to Aragorn in Rivendel, but to Frodo himself- since Frodo was the only one bound to go all the way, if he could. I don't think they had a clear plan.

And the question Harad raised: Did not Gandalf strive with Sauron once, on Amon Hen, and if so, why couldn't he do so in Mordor? Did Amon Hen disprove that he was dissallowed to fight Sauron directly?


" He heard himself crying out: Never! Never! Ir was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

"The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice, nor the Eye: free to choose, with only one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger."

In The White Rider, Gandalf says:

"...Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought".

Did he strive directly with Sauron (supporting Harads claim), or did he strive only indirecly, trying to strengthen Frodo's will? Although his quote in TTT seems to imply the former, I think the description of the actual event shows the latter- aiding Frodo, and not fighting Sauron directly. But I see how it could be read either way.

[Harad]

See
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2346

for more from the "Istari" Unfinished Tales

This taken together with Gandalfs quote which you mention, should be taken at face value.

by V of K
One interpretation of that is not that Gandalf is forbidden to try mortal combat should that be appropriate but that he can't try to set up a military force/try to rule ME.

I think he has hit in on the head. Gandalf CAN strive with Sauron, just not set up an empire of Elves and Men to do so.

As far as Gandalf's magic in Morrdorr, I wonder whether it is the same as the fireball in the middle of a blizzard that he refers to at Caradhras? In Morrrdorr there was plenty of magic going around, so Gandalf's contribution might not be so noticeable. After all neither Sting, the Phial of Galadriel, NOR THE RING, were detected by Sauron even as close as Mount Doom. Why would a little bit of extra magic by Gandalf stick out?

[Firiel]

Originally posted by Harad

I think he has hit in on the head. Gandalf CAN strive with Sauron, just not set up an empire of Elves and Men to do so.



Ah, this makes sense to me. I'll buy it. :cool:


As far as Gandalf's magic in Morrdorr, I wonder whether it is the same as the fireball in the middle of a blizzard that he refers to at Caradhras? In Morrrdorr there was plenty of magic going around, so Gandalf's contribution might not be so noticeable. After all neither Sting, the Phial of Galadriel, NOR THE RING, were detected by Sauron even as close as Mount Doom. Why would a little bit of extra magic by Gandalf stick out? [/B]

I think Gandalf would stick out.
1) Most of the Magic happening in Mordor is Sauron's own, and I think he could tell the difference
2) Until Frodo claimed the ring, it was "passive" magic, not something actively being directed. Likewise the phial of Galadrreil was "passive", and I don't think it would have sent up neon signs of its presence.

Following on #2, I think that Gandalf may have been able to do some good without attracting Sauron's attention, bringing Frodo and Sam healing of the heart perhaps, but anything else would have called down the attention and wrath of Sauron. But then, even that would have been something. But somehow I doubt enough to compensate for the fact he still would have been more attention-getting than the hobbits alone.

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by squeeky
As far as "attention getting" dont forget that Gandalf sssssssssssssneaked all the way into the Sauron's dungeon of Dol Guldur to debrief Thrain. I expect he could use the same skills in Morrrdorrr as he did in DG.

hey squeeky daisy :D one is mutuall exclusive of the other, Sauron would have known more of Gandalf now, by careful and unplanned for misdirections, sauron's attention was diverted, and allow frodo to sneak thru the crack o' doom

[Snaga]

Squeeky: the post reads-
One interpretation of that is not that Gandalf is forbidden to try mortal combat should that be appropriate but that he can't try to set up a military force/try to rule ME.

There's no problem I'm afraid. Sorry, but no Red Leicester for you today.:(

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by Grond
Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot! Grond is an idiot!


GROND! That parrot that Harad gave you for Christmas is getting on the computer again! :)