Political Correctness

[Ossiriand Blade]

Its seems fairly obvious that one of the major changes will be in the flims depictions of the Haradrim and easterling soldiery Tolkien make no bones of the fact that the Haradrim are black men with plaited hair and that the easterlings are orientals similar to genghis khans mongol horsemen.I cannot see a major hollywood film being released with such deliberate racial overtones(especially when set against the very aryan host of the west who all-even the elves-have very nordic appearences) this is a shame in that it robs us of the spectacle of battle as described in the books(as well as altering sams oliphaunt encounter)but maybe in this day and age its for the best?

[ANB614]

I hate political correctness....

[PRH]

You know, I kept meaning to bring this up but I kept forgetting...

Has anyone heard any mention or seen any pictures to suggest there that the Haradrim, Easterlings or Dunlanders will be shown in the films? Will there be any evil men at all or just orcs? Will even the Corsairs become seafaring orcs?

Surely the complete omission of evil men (if this is the case) is a vastly more substantial adulteration of Tolkien's work than Arwen at the Ford! Sauron's corruption of so many men to his service is a major plot line of Tolkien's writings.


btw - we already know that Helm's Deep will just be Uruk-Hai vs. Men & Elves. PJ described the battle just as such in a recent quote.

[dapence]

Where is their a description of the Haradrim being 'black men with plaited hair?'

Just curious

[Ossiriand Blade]

Here is Sams description in Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit:- "His BLACK PLAITS of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood.His BROWN hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword"
And Gollums description in The Black Gate is Closed :- "DARK FACES......they have black eyes and long black hair......not nice very cruel wicked men they look"

I realise this is an American website and any touching on subjects of race and gender in the land of the free is liable to be reported,but i am not a racist just interested in the nature of pc in movies as well as the selective romanticisation of many Tolkien fans.The fact is many of them,if they ever had the opportunity to meet Tolkien,would not have been confronted with some earthly incarnation of Gandalf.He was very reactionary and conservative,raised in imperial South Africa-he believed in the divine right of English Kings to rule half the world,despised democracy and most things"foreign" ie outside Northern Europe and these things(ie the demonisation of the east and south) didnt appear in his books by accident.Now he was no Nazi and despised Hitler but many of his views are not the airy-fairy new age ones that many Tolkien fans hold (i myself listen to syd barretts pink floyd and 60s music,have long hair,live in a multcultural area etc) I find the contradiction very interesting and i am sure it is unpalatable for a lot of Tolkien fans to confront.

[Harad]

I happen to know that JRRT loved "Baby Lemonade" and took his inspiration for Galadriel from an early version of "Goldenhair."

[dapence]

Interesting ... Could be. I wonder what PC changes PJ might make along these lines. Though, it would be NLC more likely making PC changes.

[greypilgrim]

i think that political correctness is a sign of weakness, of blanketing ones true thoughts to appease the masses. i never thought that pj omitting events in these movies(which i think he did a fine mess of in FoTR), or changing events in his own way(which was horrible) was because of a wish NOT to offend anybody. i don't know if i want to spit on him or shake his hand. i loved the first movie, regardless, and have decided to wait for the two towers to come out to make up my mind about him. we shall see how real he keeps it.
i know i could not have done better! but i would have kept it real. so what if somebody gets OFFENDED!!! thats a sign of that person's OWN WEAKNESS. aaaarrrgghhhh!!!! am i wrong?

[Harad]

Its a tough call, but in some sense "balance" is the key. If all literature portrays an ethnic group in one negative way, even if that one way was lifted directly from history, for example, than that IS stereotyping. The balance would be if other literature portrays the same ethnic group in a positive way. Of course portraying it incorrectly either positive or negative is just plain wrong.

PJ should not, in principle, be held to account for all stereotyping history that preceded him. Nevertheless a more "important" point might be the desire to appeal to all ethnic groups at the box office. Would having the bad guys closely associated with one ethnic group (if thats possible in a fantasy?) be bad business?

[Thorin]

I don't know...I'm a little torn here.

I highly doubt that when Tolkien created the Haradrim, he was thinking of African-American....They were created dark to distinguish themselves from those of Gondor and Rohan...Once again, dark and light, good against evil..Tolkien shows a distinction in these regards very thoroughly...

Some may think, "Well, Tolkien is saying, then, that white people represent good and dark people represent evil." I think that that is stretching it, and missing the imagery that Tolkien was trying to portray in his distinctions between the different races.

The way the people of Harad are described are "dark" with "black eyes" and long "black hair" and "brown hands". Who's to say that they never painted their faces, or that they spent a long time in the sun? I see no description that the Haradrim had afros and dreadlocks and full lips or spoke with Jamaican accents..

Trying to associate the Haradrim with any race here on earth, is like saying that the hobbits represent dwarfism, and the elves are like Fabio....

PJ can still get around the PC issues just by making them look fierce and thuggish like the Celts were in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves". To not put any men in the battle and just have orcs is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[greypilgrim]

there better be some new character races in the next movie! there are enough left out of the first.

[PRH]

To quote myself citing a quote of PJ:
we already know that Helm's Deep will just be Uruk-Hai vs. Men & Elves. PJ described the battle just as such in a recent quote.

He said almost verbatim: "It is a battle between the Uruk-Hai and Men and Elves at Helm's Deep."

No mention of Dunlanders.

HOWEVER....PJ has talked about the incident with the Haradrim soldier dying right in front of Sam as an example of Tolkien's non-racism. I don't see why PJ would mention this episode if it wasn't going to be in the film....still, he might.

[mikado]

Hello everyone!

I had the impression that consciously or not Middle Earth was a pretty close copy of pre-war Europe (barbarians to the east, dark-skinned barbarians to the south, emigration to the west, etc). However I wouldn't go so far as to say that Tolkein/LOTR equates caucasian with good and dark skin with evil per se. I think it just reflects a vague cultural mindset.

I would be sorry if the Haradrim etc were written out as they add variety and the story would be pretty boring if it was just non-stop orcs. I would have thought the film makers could have figured out a way to make the evil humans resemble the LOTR descriptions without overtly equalling any particular racial groups.

Mick :)

[Ossiriand Blade]

Thorin- although I agree with your assessment that Tolkien was not trying to portray black people as evil per se(especially bearing in mind what a comitted christian he was)there is no doubt he was portraying the haradrim as black-there is a more explicit quote in the battle of the pelennor fields where he describes(this is not a direct quote)evil black men with red tongues from far Harad like half trolls.

[Harad]

I dont believe that Tolkien was racist, but religion is hardly a reason to justify that belief. Some of the most virulent intolerance arises from all sorts of religion.

[greypilgrim]

the war of the ring is a story of good versus evil, not black men versus white. the soldiers that sauron recruited were all different races, and i don't see how any one race of people would be offended at seeing their own kind on the evil side. if they are then they are weak persons.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ossiriand Blade
Thorin- although I agree with your assessment that Tolkien was not trying to portray black people as evil per se(especially bearing in mind what a comitted christian he was)there is no doubt he was portraying the haradrim as black-there is a more explicit quote in the battle of the pelennor fields where he describes(this is not a direct quote)evil black men with red tongues from far Harad like half trolls.

Yet, Blade, look at the last description you gave...how many African-Americans or East Indians, or even Latinos (how about French-Matis like myself?) can honestly classify themselves with red tongues and looking like half-trolls? (Though I have been called a hobbit before :D

People have to get over the dark skin/white skin issue and realize that Tolkien was just making a contrast, not stating or feeding a sterotype or trying to associate anyone with a certain race....

This world is going to hell in a hand basket with all this screaming racist and prejudice at every opportunity. I agree with greyprilgrim...Good and bad people are represented by every race (heck, probably 80% of villains in movies are white!!!) People have to lighten up and stop taking things so personally.

[daisy]

I think it is easy to tell other people to lighten up - I would probably feel more comfortable if there were people of all races accounted for in various films - but FOTR as Tolkien wrote it had no noble people of colour so PJ can't really add any - although he did add a larger Arwen part...
80% of villains may be white, but 90% of heroes are white so it balances out - and greypilgrim what is with all this weird rhetoric against what you see as policial correctness - so someone who gets offended at someone else's racism or intolerance is weak to be offended? Please clarify this

[PRH]

so someone who gets offended at someone else's racism or intolerance is weak to be offended? Please clarify this

greypilgrim - If you address this you're just gonna get pulled into admiting your a racist or apologizing for the remark. You should do neither.

Allow me - what he meant by weak is in terms of self image of esteem. I think it's a very viable point.


QUOTE]I would probably feel more comfortable if there were people of all races accounted for in various films - but FOTR as Tolkien wrote it had no noble people of colour so PJ can't really add any[[/QUOTE]

No, he just had a Fellowship of 9 representing 5 races. That kind of diversity should make even Benneton blush but I guess it only counts if the skin colors are different.

When did it become so important that we need to make sure people aren't offended? This is a ridiculous notion and frankly a little scary - it's part of that 'thought police' thing. It's just sad that PJ (probably) can't represent the Haradrim and the Easterlings the way the good professor described them in his wonderful book 50 years ago all because we've all become so complacent in our lush lifestyles that we've got nothing better to do than spend all our energies worrying about whether people might get offended.

You can probably tell this issue gets to me...I just so badly miss my Polock jokes!

alright, I'm gonna get some heat for this post...

[Snaga]

Ok lets just say PJ had cast Denzel Washington as Aragorn, because race wasn't an issue and he needed a good strong male lead. I want to hear all of you who have no time for 'political correctness' to tell me this would not be a problem for you.

PRH and greypilgrim - you need to take a good long look at yourselves. What is so wrong with trying to avoid insulting people? Going around with an arrogant attitude that you can insult anyone and its their problem not yours is just crass and immature. I'd venture to suggest that you are being weak and insecure, because you feel the need to posture like this.

My take on this is that I want the film to be liked and enjoyed by all people of all races. Why would I want to put up barriers to that, just through my own insensitivity?

[Ossiriand Blade]

THORIN-I agree that Tolkien was not trying to make a black/white issue after all the most evil characters(Saruman,the Nazgul originally and the captain of Mordor the mouth of Sauron who was was an evil Numonorean are all white)but his book does reflect a very British Empire notion of civilised europe Vs uncivilised eastern/southern hordes.It is essentially a book from a different era written by a very Victorian man and yet its values appeal so widely today to an essentially liberal audience,will Jackson have the balls to put what people love(ie the book) on screen without worrying about upsetting people.My view is the book appeals to all not a small group of fascists or misogynists so why change it?(the same arguments could be applied to the altering of Arwen)

[PRH]

VOK,

I took a good long look at myself and I saw an honest man with convictions. He wasn't out to utterly insult anyone and he was secure enough with that knowledge that he was able to enjoy a story involving white Numenoreans and Rohirrim and also with black Haradrim without automatically equating them with persons of African descent in our real world.

If I come off as arogant, it's just because I've been bombarded with these issues over and over again and I'm impatient and irritated when they're rehashed.

[Snaga]

Originally posted by PRH
VOK,

I took a good long look at myself and I saw an honest man with convictions. He wasn't out to utterly insult anyone and he was secure enough with that knowledge that he was able to enjoy a story involving white Numenoreans and Rohirrim and also with black Haradrim without automatically equating them with persons of African descent in our real world.

If I come off as arogant, it's just because I've been bombarded with these issues over and over again and I'm impatient and irritated when they're rehashed.

PRH its one thing not be 'out to out to utterly insult anyone', and its another thing to be blithely indifferent to offense that you cause.

As a fan of the book, I'd hope you would be interested in more than just your own view, but also concern yourself with the perceptions of others. The fact is that people will and have equated the Haradrim with Africans in our world, firstly because the parallel is so stark, and secondly because racism is real and painful for a lot of people.

PJ could take the same attitude that you do, or he could realise that society has changed in the 50 years since JRRT wrote LotR. What can be overlooked or accepted in the book today because of the times in which it was written (i.e. not racism so much as eurocentrism), will not get accepted in a film made in 2002. To ignore that would be to court controversy that noone needs. My own solution would not be to remove all the men on Sauron's side, but to depict them as white too. Or make both good and bad multiracial.

You have a choice. Either race is a non-issue, and so this change is fine. Or if you think that ethnic group of the bad guys is a key part of the book, doesn't that concede to the critics that they've got a point?

[Isildur's Bane]

Tolkien say's somewhere (i don't remember the exact source, and no i didn't dream it) that he based middle earth loosely around europe. he was candid about the characters with dark skin being the baddies by intent.

remember though that he was educated at a very different time when britain was still clinging to the empire ideals.

just a thought.

[PRH]

I don't really care if the Haradrim end up being white. You're not going to win that way either though. Jesse Jackson will complain about all the jobs denied to black actors. It seems the only way to win the political correctness game is to write the Haradrim out altogether, which by every indication (or lack thereof) seems to be what PJ has done.

and its another thing to be blithely indifferent to offense that you cause

what offense am I causing again?

[daisy]

"Jesse Jackson will complain about all the jobs denied to black actors"
Hmmmm, you should have also mentioned that it would only really be racist if the Haradrim were eating fried chicken and picking cotton too. I always get a kick out of prejudiced people who have no idea they are prejudiced!!! It's almost cute!

Maybe you and greypilgrim should go on a 'men with convictions' hunting trip and talk about how you've been so wrongly understood. And maybe you can repeat that great non-offensive Jesse Jackson comment that I so admiringly quoted above....
anti-racism does not equal political correctness. The term political correctness seems to be most often used by people who have finally had a glaring spotlight shined on their own subtle prejudice and intolerance.....
What about you PRH?

[Snaga]

what offense am I causing again?

How about the suggestion that if you are offended by seeing your ethnic group portrayed as evil, it is because you have low self-esteem.

Did it cross your mind that it might be because racism is offensive??

[PRH]

VOK and daisy,

Thanks to your wisdom I now see myself for who I truly am: a complete and utter racist. I am going to immedietly begin sensitivity training and we'll see if that helps me any. I don't hold much hope because my evil ways are so ingrained. The next step will probably be psychiatric care and probably some form of medication. When that fails, it's either off to prision for my hate crimes or a quick and dirty lobotomy to shut me up. Then society will be truly safe. I will still try to get help in the small hope it won't come to that so thank you so very much for pointing out the error of my ways while they may still be time. Naturally I concede the debate. As a precaution, the webmaster should probably ban my account so I don't inadvertedly affect others with further racist posts.

[daisy]

Yikes!
All in the nature of debate PRH! I would never go so far as to say you are a racist - you may have posted certain things that I felt were slightly insensitive but I have never even met you so I can't make a statement like that.


peace,
daisy

[greypilgrim]

i can admit my insensitivity freely. and thank you, prh, for taking some heat off me, but i can answer to the replies given on my own.
my point was that there were "white" and "black" men, orcs, wolfriders, ringwraiths, and huge trolls fighting on the pelennor.
if i were a black man watching this movie, i would not be offended in the least to see blacks on the evil side. unless, of course, my purpose in life is to point out all the tiniest injustices in the world against my people (which this is not), everywhere i turned.

my "insensitivity" on this subject could be classified as "objectivity" i believe, because i am NOT A RACIST.
the "weakness" i wrote of earlier could be re-classified as "bigotry" or "opportunism", without regards to self-worth.

also, if i saw white folks ONLY on the evil side of things, and denzel washington was aragorn, and the king of rohan was black, and arwen and elrond were darker still, and hobbits had afros, and ....you get my point, i would think PJ would have some explaining to do, seeing as how THIS MOVIE WAS DERIVED FROM A BOOK.
personally, i don't care if the haradrim are black or white, as long as they look EVIL. am i a racist? i don't think so. i just would like to see less complaining by people about things that don't matter at all, white people or black.
i have spoken.

[Snaga]

greypilgrim

I'm quite happy with that as a response. I don't think I totally agree with you on all points. But that's healthy discussion isn't it? Anyway your response doesn't sound racist to me.:)

My point all along has been that if lots of people call LotR racist, that would be a bad thing. In that context our opinion of fans won't count for much if the media take up the theme, and it will be the reputation of the books that suffer. PJ has the opportunity to avoid that, by using his power as director to take the race issue away from the film. I call that being smart.

BTW I don't the Haradrim should look evil per se. Their warriors are fierce for sure, but remember the passage where Sam witnesses the ambush of the Haradrim by Faramir in Ithilien? He wonders if they are just misguided and manipulated rather than evil.

PRH - My my! I am wrong you're not as insensitive as I thought. Not when it comes to having your own views and comments questioned at least...:D I thought I'd been fairly restrained in my responses. I'll be extra careful in future.:)

[greypilgrim]

V of K:
i agree that the subject of race should be avoided in this story, for the good of LoTR on the whole, and that is smart. i have no problem with seeing no minorities in the next films, and i will go on to say that keeping everyone white (good and bad, great or small) would definetly keep the film in the "neutral zone" in regards to offending any group of people. Star Wars had one good black guy in it. everyone else was white. no problems, no discussions. why can't blacks be portrayed in movies without any nitpicking about what their roles are? i'm white, and maybe that's why i "just don't understand".
i also am a big fan of the books(like everyone else), and don't care either way as long as the movie "keeps it real".

Daisy:
all i can say is, i do have feelings for the struggle of others in this world, and my only gripe is that "sensitivity" is being taken to extremes these days, everywhere you look. that extreme is called "opportunism" in my book, and i will not be open to it, or fake interest in a "weak" argument supporting it.
thanks and PEACE

[PRH]

VOK - I find that to be a mean spirited dig in light of my recent self-discovery. I don't know what more I can give.

[Snaga]

Grey

The problems come in if the battles look like its a race war, rather than a fight of good vs. evil.

PRH

I questioned your sincerity, for which I do apologise. Though you should be grateful that the webmaster made a similar mistake, and ignored your suggestion that you be banned. However, as he will now undoubtedly realise that your post was not at all in jest, can I say a fond farewell to you. I hope the training goes well.

[PRH]

Goodbye. The training is going quite well already. I've never had such a good cry.

[greypilgrim]

V of K :
I am with you on that note....I (like everyone else) only want the movie to be as true to the original works as possible. The more true the movies are, the better they will be.

Will Peter Jackson include the tremendous amounts of killings in the final battles, I wonder? Will he make the end a happy one and sweet?
Will there be a scouring of the Shire? Only time will tell.

I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Thorin]

Well, I'll let you know right now, greypilgrim,

There is no Scourging of the Shire and Saruman is killed at Orthanc.

SOS would be quite anti-climactic (to the plot of the War of the Ring, though SOS is exciting and a great story in itself). From a cinematic standpoint it is understandable that it be cut (like the elimination of Bombadil). Lord knows that with the poor character development of the hobbits we have seen in the first movie, I can't imagine the four actors holding their own without the other characters to support them!

Therefore, Saruman must be done away with before that.

[Snaga]

Thorin

I don't really know the actors playing Pippin and Sam, but I do know those playing Frodo and Merry. (That is to say I am familiar with their work).

Elijah seems generally a bit insipid (c.f. The Faculty), but I've always rated Dominic Monaghan. I hope that will come through more in TTT.

[greypilgrim]

Thorin, if what you say is true, I'm not sure I'd even pay money to see this next flick. Saruman dead at Orthanc? Will PJ even include Treebeard and the Ents I wonder? Sounds like he strays further from the story with each new movie. Why not call it "Peter Jackson's Rings of Power Trilogy.....based loosley (at best) on the works of JRR Tolkien".?!?:mad:

All right.....calm down. I know I will see that movie 4 or 5 times like the first, but this is ill tidings......

[Thorin]

We've known about these changes since October. Treebeard and the Ents don't have anything to do with the Shire so they are not affected. Jackson (like Saruman and Gandalf at Orthanc) will be showing the Ents' assault on Orthanc in real time.

As for it going farther and farther away from the story, I think that is a strong possibility, and one we purists have been protesting since August. We were justified by FoTR and can only hope to be surprised by TTT, but I don't think so. Arwen seems to be at Helm's Deep in the grand thick of things like dirt on a sow, and it looks like Eowyn is as well.

You would think that seeing there is not as much to fit in FotR as TTT, that PJ would be able to stick closer to the story, but I doubt it. I don't believe that that is PJ's intention. He has been given the reigns to show his own interpretation as much as possible. The changes he made in the first movie and DID NOT HAVE TO show that his own interpretation of LoTR's events is in the foreground.

I believe that part of Theodred's (Theoden's son who died before Gandalf and the company see him) funeral is shown as well. What that exactly adds to the story that couldn't be told in a few words is another mystery to me. Here PJ cuts or edits out more important parts of the story for "time" or "audience ignorance" sake, yet puts a part like this in. ??

[greypilgrim]

I think I will buy a "Star Wars: Episode 2" ticket at the theater,
then go and watch The Two Towers.

I was thinking....
I saw a Balrog on a 50 foot screen,
good fight scenes, Gandalf, Saruman, they all were good.
I should feel lucky to have seen it!
Should, but I'm a "purist" I suppose.
And the story as written would have been better to show.
But at least he got some parts right.
Not enough to earn MY $7.50 !!

[Bucky]

Back to the topic:

PC = Political Correctness

Also:

PC = Petty Crybaby

As I heard someone say.

The problem with 'tolerance' people is they only tolerate those who think like them.....


>>>he believed in the divine right of English Kings to rule
half the world,despised democracy

Actually, I was reading Tolkien's Letters today & he said 'I love England, but not Great Britian or the British Empire.'

So much for your quote.


Now, where in the TT does it say those 'Southrons' attacked in Ithilien are Blacks or 'Africans'?
Long plaited black hair doesn't sound like African's hair to me.
It sounds more like they are Middle Eastern, like Arabs to me (uh oh, I'm on dangerous PC ground now).

I think the description of the men of Far Harad, who I would agree sound like Africans or Blacks, is being told from a HOBBIT'S perspective. And they never saw a 'Black' or African.
Remember, they kept saying the Nazgul were 'Black Men' just because they wore black.

BTW, Where did the idea arise that the Easterlings are Oriental? It never crossed my mind before reading it here.
I can't recall any description of them other than they were stockier than Men in the West.
Where are there stocky Oriental people (outside of a few sumo wrestlers)?

[Ossiriand Blade]

Bucky

I don't know where you have seen arabs with plaited hair but I would be glad to know because I never have,and your declaration that their are no stocky orientals is odd,perhaps you don't get my english being across the atlantic but to me stocky means short and muscular not fat,exactly the description I would apply to the mongol horsemen of the steppes.As for Tolkien making no reference to black haradrim he describes them exactly as such in the battle of the pelennor fields.It seems you are wilfully denying the obvious-Tolkien created a world whose geography flora and fauna are an approximation of our own,in the north is an icy wasteland moving south into a temperate zone so similar to europe that it includes the same trees.Then as we go south into Harad a land Tolkien tells us of fierce heat with apes and elephants(oliphaunts).You seriously believe this was not a representation of Africa? And if your other thesis is correct that Tolkien created a world including this "Africa" and then chose to people it with exclusively white people surely this is even a more disturbing situation,which I will not believe although you in your ignorance may.

[Bucky]

No, No, No.

I agree with you 100% that Tolkien based his ME on a model of what was called the 'Ancient' world:
Europe, with The Shire being England.
Africa with Harad being such.
That would of course, make the areas past the Sea of Rhun Asia, so I agreed that you had a point, but offered a flawed rebuttle there, because there's nothing to indicate the 'Easterlings' are Chinese, Korean, Japanese.
The description Tolkien gives would definitely not fit that. If he was so 'rascist', he would certainly have mentioned The Wainriders, for example, had 'slanted eyes' or 'yellow' skin'.
But, I will buy the 'Mogolian' like Gengis Khan therory.

On the 'long plaited hair', what does plaited mean?
I got the impression it was another word for 'braided'.

Certainly LONG would not fit the average Black or African's hair (in it's natural state - let's assume there weren't hair salons to get your hair straightened in Harad at the time...).

Also, look at Africa:
Are the people in the North 'Blacks' or as was said in the pre-PC days Negroes?
No, they are Arabian......

Anyway, if those Southrons who get ambushed looked the same as those from Far Harad (who are obviosly Blacks), why do we get 2 different descriptions of them?

[Ossiriand Blade]

my main reason for believing the easterlings are oriental is the term wainrider and the hints at their nomadic horse based lifestyle which I believe is intentionally to mimic Genghis Khan and the golden horde type of marauding nomads.Tolkien does not describe oriental features but does draw attention to "cruel eyes" which I assume is related to oriental eyes(not very PC and I concede genuinely offensive today)I agree Tolkien intentionally seperates far Harad and near Harad and that the men of near Harad would be more arabic/mediterranean in appearence,however I think the braided/plaited hair is a black peculiarity seen in Masai warriors etc. So it is a presumption that the soldiers Sam sees are black.Certainly Tolkien has intentionally created races for ME-here is his desciption of easterlings in the Silmarillion "their skins were swart or swallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes" the dictionary defines swart as black and sallow as yellowish so here is a definite description of varying races and skin type,I am sorry I took your original point wrongly.

[daisy]

Bucky, how can you be from Conneticut?
And what is your definition of political correctness? Are we now expanding the definition to include people dealing with certain issues that do not end with Tolkien's written definitions of ME races?
Are we now vaulting into the world at large and making sweeping statements about these mysterious PC people?
And your definition of 'tolerance people' sounds a lot like the way I would define a bigot.
Conneticut - who knew?

[Bucky]

Connecticut?

What is Ct supposed to be?

Berkeley East?

Having read some of your posts, I doubt we would agree on much......

Send me a private message if you want to know why I suspect that.

Peace.....

[greypilgrim]

Who really cares anyways, what race these actors are?

[ReadWryt]

Oh geez, are we still on with our unfounded accusations that Tolkien was Racist? Get over it and yourself. If you had read the man's writings outside of his fiction you would know that he was far from Racist, and I still defy anyone to show me evidence in ANY of Tolkien's writings that ANY of his mythical races were Oriental, African, Australian, Mongol, Persian or even Saxons...

[Bill the Pony]

RW, I'm not saying Tolkien was a racist, I don't believe it, but check out letter # 210, where he describes what orcs should look like.