Gandalf - Strategy??

[daisy]

When Gandalf the White returns to the fray, why does he not, especially after acquiring Shadowfax, attempt to renezvous with Frodo? Why is Frodo left to his own devices? Or is this the point?

:confused:
daisy

[Kuduk]

Daisy, you'll have to give me some time to find the specific passages, but I think Gandalf essentially decides that he will be of more help with the other members of the fellowship. Remember that after his 'reincarnation' he first drops in on Galadriel, who probably gave him some advice about where he should go. But I'm sure he had second thoughts, there's a passage in TTT where he looks East trying to 'see' Frodo but says that he and the Ring are beyond his 'sight.' I'll find the exact quote and context and give it to you later, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

And from a story construction perspective, I think, yes, that leaving Frodo to his own devices for the rest of his journey was precisely the point.

[Greenwood]

I would say Gandalf's strategy was three fold. One, destroy the power of Saruman so that Rohan and Gondor are not trapped in a pincer between the two. Two, help Gondor withstand Sauron's attacks so that something would be left in the event Frodo succeeds. Three, probably most important, keep Sauron's attention diverted from Mordor, thus increasing Frodo's chances of slipping through.

[daisy]

Is there any firm indication that Gandalf was confident Frodo would succeed? I mean, unless Gandalf was pretty darn sure Frodo had a good shot, then this was a major leap of faith on Gandalf's part. I mean, if Sauron had gotten hold of Frodo and that ring.... only Gandalf and maybe not even Gandalf could have stood a chance...
I just never got the real feeling that anyone was all that convinced Frodo could do the job.
Any passages etc.?:)

[Greenwood]

Daisy

I think Gandalf, Elrond and the rest of the "wise" thought Frodo's mission was a long shot, but they didn't have any better options. Of course, others disagreed. Denethor wanted to hide the Ring under Minas Tirith. Boromir as we know wanted to use it against Sauron. Gandalf and the others said that the Ring would always be a menace as long as it existed, so it had to be destroyed. Sending it with Frodo to throw it into the Cracks of Doom, they thought was such a long shot that Sauron would never even think of the possibility. I can find quotes for most of the above in the books if you would like.

[daisy]

So therefore, if everyone thought this was such a long shot, why then when Gandalf the White returns with increased powers and Shadowfax to ride around on does the plan not change?

[Snaga]

I always had the impression that when Faramir returned to Minas Tirith and told Gandalf and Denethor about meeting Frodo in Ithilien that Gandalf was trying to work out whether he'd be able to make it there to help. But he decided not to go. Probably because he'd draw attention to Frodo.

[DGoeij]

I agree with V of K. Riding as Gandalf the White into Mordor to support Frodo, if he could find him in the first place, there happened to be quite a number of Orcs in Mordor I heard, would only draw Sauron's attention to Mordor.

Better to create a lot of havoc away from Mordor, getting the attention of Sauron (like Aragorn did by using the Palantir) and hope for the best. The whole queste was 'a long shot' already as somebody (Greenwood sp?) described it. The best chance they got was Sauron not expecting 'the long shot' in the first place.

[telperion]

yes , he kept 4 ringwhraits busy after he was enclosed in the old circle of Amon Sul .....he knew that he would bring all attention on frodo if he tried to help him...even if he could find him
now there were only five black riders on aragorn's and frodo's back..much easier:D :D

[Eonwe]

Greenwood says: "Three, probably most important, keep Sauron's attention diverted from Mordor, thus increasing Frodo's chances of slipping through"

I must say I agree with daisy it seems like he doesn't consider much taking off after Frodo to help him, but I have to say I agree with Greenwood's statement.

[telperion]

my mistake . .. thought you meant before the council of elrond....
i had just read that chapter again...:o

[Kuduk]

Originally posted by daisy
So therefore, if everyone thought this was such a long shot, why then when Gandalf the White returns with increased powers and Shadowfax to ride around on does the plan not change?
Daisy, I'm sorry to have taken a while to get back, but as promised, here is a better (or, at the very least, longer) answer complete with book quotes.

To get into Gandalf's head on how he saw the quest to destroy the Ring, let's start back at the Council of Elrond. The idea to take the Ring to Mordor has come up and Erestor comments that this seems to be an act of great despair or folly.
'Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. 'It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.'
'At least for a while,' said Elrond. 'The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.'
From this passage, I think it is reasonable to conclude that Gandalf does indeed think the quest is a long shot, but he doesn't consider it to be an act of despair. Therefore, one can infer that Gandalf harbors some hope that it will succeed. Of course, he probably doesn't know how it will, but I think Elrond's final words in that passage ('small hands do them...') seem to have stuck with Gandalf. I say this because later on in TTT when Gandalf returns as the White Rider and finds Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, he essentially takes Elrond's words and makes them the basis of his strategy from that point going forward, which he explains when Aragorn asks what Gandalf is thinking...'What then shall I say?' said Gandalf, and paused for a while in thought. 'This in brief is how I see things at the moment, if you wish to have a piece of my mind as plain as possible. The Enemy, of course, has long known that the Ring is abroad, and that it is borne by a hobbit. He knows now the number of our Company that set out from Rivendell, and the kind of each of us. But he does not yet perceive our purpose clearly. He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith; for that is what he would himself have done in our place. And according to his wisdom it would have been a heavy stroke against his power. Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place. That we should wish to cast him down and have no one in his place is not a thought that occurs to his mind. That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream. In which no doubt you will see our good fortune and our hope. For imagining war he has let loose war, believing that he has no time to waste; for he that strikes the first blow, if he strikes it hard enough, may need to strike no more. So the forces that he has long been preparing he is now setting in motion, sooner than he intended. Wise fool. For if he had used all his power to guard Mordor, so that none could enter, and bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, then indeed hope would have faded: neither Ring nor bearer could long have eluded him. But now his eye gazes abroad rather than near at home; and mostly he looks towards Minas Tirith. Very soon now his strength will fall upon it like a storm. For already he knows that the messengers that he sent to waylay the Company have failed again. They have not found the Ring. Neither have they brought away any hobbits as hostages. Had they done even so much as that, it would have been a heavy blow to us, and it might have been fatal. But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower. For the Enemy has failed - so far....'
Kind of sounds like something Gandalf might have posted on the Forum if he were asked your question, huh?

I think you can find your answer there, Daisy. And I think that the plan does indeed change, but not in the way which you might think. While Gandalf may have thought about going to Mordor with Frodo, the events of Amon Hen and those subsequent to them have convinced Gandalf that he is now in a better position to optimize Frodo's chances by optimizing and maximizing the misdirection of Sauron. The remaining plot of LotR is therefore foreshadowed in Gandalf's speech. His words are probably a major reason why Aragorn decides later on to reveal himself to Sauron, and also presages the decision to attack the Morannon directly and immediately after the Pelennor Fields victory rather than delaying to build up strength. In fact, I think JRRT basically gives away the ending of the book here, but he does it in such an artful manner that it comes across as a hope, a vision, rather than a foregone conclusion.

Does Gandalf have doubts about this strategy? Of course he does, and he says so later during that same section of the book...

'Do we go to find our friends and to see Treebeard?' asked Aragorn.
'No,' said Gandalf. 'That is not the road that you must take. I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear: for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.'
He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. 'No,' he said in a soft voice, 'it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least let us be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring....'So it seems to me there that Gandalf might be wondering, even after all those words and rationalizations, that maybe he should go after Frodo anyway. But he seems to answer his own doubts and decides (and hopes) that this strategy might just be for the best.

No doubt by this point in my post, I've probably landed myself on a lot of 'ignore' lists if for no other reason than just to save on memory space and speed up the bitstream. I hope it was worth the long read for you, Daisy. I enjoyed typing it!:)

[Eonwe]

just wanted to say -- Great Post Kuduk (GPK!)

[daisy]

Kuduk,

i just have to say you never fail me! The fact that you took the time to address each of my issues with this topic and back them up so well with textual proof...thankyou so much for that. It actually warms my heart, especially after some of the chilly vibes I have experienced around here.

Gratitude and platitudes!!

daisy the happy flower

:)

[Bucky]

Doesn't Gandalf say to Pippin in Minas Tirith, after Denethor berates Faramir for not stopping Frodo in Ithilien, "There was never more than a fool's hope, as I have been told."

Longshot or not, what are the other options besides using the Ring against Sauron like Boromir wanted?

At the battle before the Black Gate (when the ring is destroyed), Sauron's forces have a HUGE advantage, 'Ten times & more than ten times' their match.
Is that 20+ times or 100+?

It's 6000 against 120,000 or 600,000.
Either way, as Gandalf says, the war is without hope.
They are all going to be destroyed eventually by Sauron's forces unless the Ring is destroyed, even if he doesn't get it back.
So, a fool's hope is better than no hope......


Now, why doesn't Gandalf run off to save/lead Frodo?
He was relieved none of them, himself included, could be tempted by the Ring anymore.

He also was apparantly a strong believer in 'fate' or 'divine purpose' if you will.
"You were MEANT to have the Ring" he tells Frodo.
"Gollum may yet have a part to play in this" (paraphrase).
He most likely believed that Frodo was destined to go alone (with Sam). And, he seemed quite content with that.

I also think he knew he could play a bigger part in the wars.
Aragorn says "The Enemy has nine, but we have one, the White Rider" (again paraphrase).
Gandalf takes Saruman & casts him out of 'The Order'. Who else could've stripped him of his power & completely disabled him, except for 'some mischeif in a small way' (i.e., going to the Shire)?
Gandalf also accomplishes the victory at Helm's Deep by running all over the place co-ordinating & gathering forces.

He lifts the spirits of the men of Gondor just by going around Minas Tirith.
Or saving Faramir.
Gandalf is the only one around with power to stand vs The Lord of The Nazgul.
If Gandalf wasn't there, wouldn't The Black Captain just have rode into Minas Tirith when the gates are broken?

[Firiel]

It says in several places that the hope of the mission was in secrecy. But I think we can be pretty sure that Sauron was keeping a rather close eye on Gandalf the White. (Its rather easier to hide two hobbits that an Maia revealed in power). For him to set out after Frodo and Sam would have been like trying to forward mail to them through the Orc Post Office- make what's happening pretty darn obvious.

Frodo and Sam alone, in secret, had far more chance than Frodo and Sam and Gandalf, with Sauron wathching them...

[Bucky]

>>>(Its rather easier to hide two hobbits that an Maia revealed in power)

This subject's been touched on many threads.

Could Sauron keep an eye (or THE Eye) on a Maia revealed in power?

I don't think so.
Wouldn't the Ring itself draw Sauron's attention more?
Yet, he doesn't know it's in Mordor until Frodo puts it on at Mount Doom.

If Sauron could 'see' a 'Maia revealed in power', then why didn't he hook up with Durin's Bane, which was in his neighborhood for 1100 years (minus the Watchful Peace) before Sauron returns to Mordor?

Besides, Tolkien clearly states that The Istari were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty'.

So, Sauron most likely didn't know where they come from (only Elrond, Cirdan & Galadriel did), or what order they are, although it's possible he may have discovered that via his domination of Saruman through the palantir. However, Saruman still seems to have a will of his own as he double-crosses Sauron, so Sauron didn't have him completely broken.

[Kuduk]

Originally posted by daisy
Kuduk,

i just have to say you never fail me! The fact that you took the time to address each of my issues with this topic and back them up so well with textual proof...thankyou so much for that. It actually warms my heart, especially after some of the chilly vibes I have experienced around here.

Gratitude and platitudes!!

daisy the happy flower

:)

I apologize for only noticing this post now, but.... Wow! Thanks, Daisy! (You are such a charmer! You should add to your list of epigrams, 'Daisy the Silver-Voiced Flower!'). That's the nicest thing I've seen here... at least, anyway, about me (and I should let you know that flattery will get you everywhere with me). I'm glad if it seems that I've added something positive here which you've been able to benefit from. And I have to admit that makes me feel pretty good (***sound of patting self on back***).

But with all the ruckus and rumblings about the Board lately related to personal attacks, individual member statuses, etc., I'm afraid it will get to the point where no one will feel comfortable saying anything personal at all, even if it is personal praise.... But don't worry, Daisy, I owe you one...... and I promise you that I will stick by you no matter what happens and defend to my last breath you and all your rights, Daisy, including your freedom of speech, including your absolute and unconditional right to PRAISE ME AS MUCH AS YOUR DEAR HEART DESIRES!!!!!

(exit stage left, to triumphant music and a deafening standing ovation)

[Mad Adski]

Perhaps Gandelf believed that he could not reach Frodo. He would have no idea where he was and his attempts to find him could only result in disaster .

[daisy]

Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise KudukPraise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk Praise Kuduk!!!!!!!!!!!!

There. My heart's desire is sated.:)

[Snaga]

I hope for your sake Daisy that you know how to copy and paste! Typing that long hand would be... well a bit scary!!! (Ever seen 'The Shining'!!!!!! ;)) Its nice to see you guys getting a long!:)

There have been some other bits and pieces on Gandalf trying to get into Moria. I definitely think Gandalf could sneak with the best of them. "Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: that he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again." To me the problem isn't that Sauron would see Gandalf coming, but that he'd wonder why he didn't know where he was! His only chance would be to go directly after getting reincarnated. You can get away with anything if everyone thinks you're dead!

[Osric]

Kuduk talks about Gandalf's hopes, and that for Frodo to go off into Mordor is a long shot (a desperate gamble!) and Bucky talks about Fate/Divine Purpose may have a hand (see the ref. to Gollum, in particular).

The idea that even the whole Fellowship could make it into Mordor, waltz up to Mount Doom, and drop the Ring in without any further planning than to send the nine of them off to see what they could do is sheer folly!

But that is exactly what is agreed right from the outset, not just by Gandalf -- who was going along in person and could expect to react according to circumstances if necessary -- but also by Elrond.

I am convinced that the principle of Estel (Morgoth's Ring) was there in the minds of the Wise, at least, right from the start. They saw how Providence -- which they were Wise enough to distinguish from Chance -- had ruled thus far, and chose to go further, even to place the Fate of the World in the hand of Providence, as examplified by putting the Ring of the Enemy in the hand of a weakling and sending it into his own Domain!

If they didn't have the Estel/Faith that this would be made to work by a Greater Power, it can only have been an act of suicide, pure and simple.

Tolkien discusses the same principle (in _Letters_?) when it comes to Gandalf's sacrificing himself to the Balrog because he had read the signs that it was meant to be, and going to what appeared on the face of it to be his death/oblivion, because he had faith in Iluvatar not to allow everything to go so badly wrong.
Tolkien went on to say that only this ultimate act of submission to Fate enabled Gandalf to come back as the White (Spoil-- Dammit, too late!) and critically sway the outcome of everything else. By the same token, only by trusting Iluvatar to give Frodo the Grace to succeed in Mordor could they hope to succeed.

It makes you shiver just to think it, but sending an army with him -- or even just Aragorn or Gandalf -- would have been pragmatic rather than a submission to the Will of Iluvatar and therefore would not have succeeded!

[daisy]

Yes Variag I am aware of the copy/paste method - and appreciated the reference to The Shining- one of the finest movies of all time- was it Kubrick?

In terms of divine providence, I think this makes a lot of sense - in fact, Tokien proves himself to be a loyal storyteller and narrator because the cheap thrill scenario would have been to simply continue the Fellowship on, perhaps have them drop one by one or be separated gradually ( well, I guess this part kind- of happened) instead of splitting his book into two narratives and having two little hobbits and a slimer carry the precious to Mount Doom. In terms of Jerry Bruckheimer factor, a Gandalf - Sauron showdown complete with firebolts and a " YOu will never succeed" line in there somewhere, would have been more predictable - in many ways, as you mentioned Osric (sp), the very might and power of Gandalf would have very well been their undoing.

daisy the providence filled peony:)

[Snaga]

Hey I just found a bit more on Gandalf ssssneaking. Galadriel says she can't 'see' him unless he comes within the borders of her land."Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me."

Remember she can percieve the mind of Sauron as it affects the Elves, but Sauron can't percieve hers. So Gandalf truly is the international man of mystery if he is hidden even from her. Sorry that's slightly off at a tangent but I just spotted that today and HAD to post it somewhere.:D

I agree with the divine providence points made here. I think Gandalf's speech at the Council of Elrond is relevant. He talks about it not being despair because despair is for people who can see the end without hope. And they do not. My fingers are too tired to type it out but I love it.

PS Daisy - yes it is Stanley Kubrick. Also did Clockwork Orange, and 2001 A Space Odessey I think. Top banana. I don't usually go for horror films, but The Shining is fantastic.:)

[TulKas Astaldo]

He wanted Frodo and Sam to go alone so that they would be unnoticed.

He went to Gondor not only to help them in their attack, but to draw Sauron's attention fully toward one of his most major rivals, a fellow Maia. Then Gandalf later attacked Mordor itself, in a final attempt to draw Sauron's attention 100% away from Mt. Doom, which was already the last place he expected them to be. This is why Frodo and Sam made it through the very heart of Mordor without so much as being spotted

[Beleg Strongbow]

If he did then rohan would have been defeated and gondor fallen. So the ring just wouldn't have been able 2 get there. Also he would have found it hard and if he did find it would have frodo beleived him. Or did he think it might be a phantom of Sauron or Saurman or saurman himself? He was also a bit dazed after fighting the dark lord.