Aragorn's Decision

[Harad]

The movie and the book told the story of Aragorn's decision at the breaking of the Fellowship in 2 very different ways. The questions are:

1. Why did the movie alter the book's events?
2. Which do you prefer or is it a wash?

THE BOOK
Frodo escapes from Boromir and the Big Red Eye. He runs down from Amon Hen, PUTS THE RING BACK ON, and invisibly returns to the boat and sets out across the River. He has to turn back to rescue Sam. Aragorn infers that Frodo & Sam have crossed the River and decides that he is more needed to rescue M&P, who were captured looking for Frodo, than to aid the Ringbearer on his all-important Quest.

THE MOVIE
Frodo escapes from Boromir and the Big Red Eye. He runs down from Amon Hen, and meets most of the rest of the Fellowship. He converses with Aragorn and they agree that Frodo should proceed alone. After this, M&P divert attention from the Orc raiders to allow Frodo to escape, and are themselves captured. Aragorn then has no decision. He has already let Frodo go. The only thing left to do is rescue M&P. Frodo has to turn back to rescue Sam.

[Bill the Pony]

2) Personally, I liked the book better, because it leaves openings for interpretation. The film version was one of the possible reasons Aragorn might have had for letting Frodo and Sam go, but there are others possible (as has been discussed on another thread), and what I like about the book is that it leaves it up to the reader to pick the reason that suits him/her best.

PS I won't get into the debate of logic of putting the ring back on, because that has been done on another thread also.

[Snaga]

Personally I preferred the old version of this thread!:D

[Harad]

Go and Find It If You Can

[Snaga]

Oh no I wouldn't want to. I remember it as a truly wonderful thread. Finding it again might spoil it for me. That's called nostalgia!;)

[Mlangley]

>Well after a long time being gone from here... I have return... I was forgeting my pasword and change it for an easier to remember... the name of my dog...


But anyway....

I think they have the change a little the part when frodo goes becouse is more dramatical the way it is show in the movie... first the scape, then the fight and then he get in to the boat.... in the book first the scape, then the boat and then the fight...

I love the book part better, but let face it, it is a movie and they had to do it in that way

[Gothmog]

In my opinion the movie changed the events because they had a wimpish version of Aragorn and had to show that he was starting to grow up.

I prefered the book version as it showed that Aragorn was a person of high nobility and would not have let Frodo walk into danger without helping.

[Thorin]

I agree.

Frodo left because he knew that his friends would have followed them. He force Aragorn's hand by taking off.

"I will follow the orcs," he said at last. "I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The company has played its part." The Two Towers "The Departure of Boromir"


Seems pretty simple as to why Frodo left without telling Aragorn. The movie totally takes that thought process and brave decision from Frodo, making it look like some group decision to let Frodo go.

The movie contradicts itself by emphasising at the COE Aragorn kneeling and saying, "By my life or death I will aid you." Then consciously allowing Frodo to go on his own. In the book, Frodo takes that decision away leaving Aragorn with the noble and truthful aim he had to help Frodo. I think the way Tolkien played out the events and then threw the monkey wrench of M&P getting captured tells me he planned it all to happen that way.....and it works.

The movie, however, gets by...

[Harad]

I believe the last 2 posters have starry eyes imagining what is in the book, and do not admit what is really in the book. Aragorn is closer to F&S than he is to M&P. It would be easier for him to catch up with F&S than M&P. He therefore CHOOSES to abandon the Ringbearer despite his pledge at CoE (or did he just pledge at Bree?) and his highsounding words that the "Ringbearer is beyond my help." Get real! If he wanted to help the Ringbearer he still could have.

In fact, the reason he followed M&P is because it simply was a better story.

You 2 are guilty of illogic. Did Aragorn have a choice?

1. You say yes: The book was better because he had a choice.

2. You say no: He had no choice, so he had to follow M&P

You want it both ways.

[Gothmog]

Harad kindly stop insulting my inteligence. you asked for opinions I gave my opinion.

You asked two questions about two different things therefore you got two answers one for each question.

The film had a problem with the way they showed Aragorn.
The book had no such problem.

In the Film Aragorn did not have a choice of which hobbits to go after. When he allowed Frodo to leave without him he did not know that the others had been captured. Therefore he should have insisted on going with Frodo.

Now I will ask that you tell me what IS in the book that I do not admit.

Aragorn had he chased after Frodo would have left two hobbits to the lack of mercy of Saruman. He was faced with a Choice of which path to take, Frodo in the book left the fellowship willingly thereby making the choice themselves (or at least Frodo did and Same went along with it.) Pipin and Merry did no such thing. In the film Aragorn made a Choice that he would not have done had he been potrayed as in the book. In the Book Aragorn felt that he had at that point a chance to save Pipin and Merry, he had less certainty about helping Frodo. To go after Frodo would mean abandoning Pipin and Merry. Also at the time he makes the choice he doesn't know that he is closer to Frodo and Sam.

By the way I do not care about logic. It has problems coping with life.

[Harad]

I appreciate your opinion. If I disagree with it it shouldn't offend you.

Aragorn in the film chose to let Frodo go alone. Frodo "outranked" him as the RingBearer and told him to take a hike. Aragorn could have refused, but didnt. The movie makes use of the contrasting themes between Boromir and Aragorn: Boromir the man who covets the Ring and Aragorn the man who lets it go. This was a strong plot point for people who did not have the Book as background.

Aragorn is a King. The type of people that have to make grave decisions. The choices in the Book are to help the RingBearer whose Quest carries the entire future of ME, or help save two cute but otherwise expendable hobbits.

The whole action took place in moments. Catching F&S on foot would have been easier than Ugluk and his lads hotfooting across Rohan, by any method of computation.

The bottom line is the Book does not give a good motivation for Aragorn's choice. The movie makes an attempt to do so. Being sensible, however, Aragorn should have tried to talk Frodo into his going along, even in the movie.

By the way I do not care about logic.

Make a logical argument, and then denigrate logic. Why?

[Gothmog]

your disagreement with my opinion did not offend me. It was the manner that did so.
and do not admit what is really in the book.
Since my interpretation of the story is as valid as anybody else's, this comment is an unwarrented attack on my inteligence as is your later comment for me to "Get Real".

Yes I know that he could have gone after Frodo and chose not to. That was his choice. Since I did not use logic to follow the plot I Felt that his choice in the book was right.

Make a logical argument, and then denigrate logic. Why?

You 2 are guilty of illogic.

I do not worry about trying to make things Logical. I am happy if they make sense.

[Snaga]

Aragorn in the film chose to let Frodo go alone. Frodo "outranked" him as the RingBearer and told him to take a hike. Aragorn could have refused, but didnt. The movie makes use of the contrasting themes between Boromir and Aragorn: Boromir the man who covets the Ring and Aragorn the man who lets it go. This was a strong plot point for people who did not have the Book as background. Harad is right about why PJ shot the scene that way, but to me that scene was wierd. Because Frodo says 'Can you protect me from yourself?' as his reasoning for telling Aragorn he is going alone. Aragorn says yes and closes Frodo's hand rather than taking the ring. Then shrugs and lets him go. I was thinking... its that it? Aren't you going to discuss this. Only 5 minutes earlier Gimli is bemoaning the difficulties of crossing Emyn Muil and the Marshes and Aragorn is saying 'Such is our path' - i.e. we're all going that way so live with it. Then there's Frodo saying, actually I'm going on my own - and scarcely even mentioning that Boromir's tried to take the ring. And he doesn't put up an argument. There's a world of difference between not taking the ring, and just letting Frodo walk off on his own. Luckily, the audience is saved from having to get their heads round this weird chain of events by the timely arrival of the Uruk-Hai.

In the book at least there is a good reason for Aragorn to choose to let Frodo go: he's got two hobbits to rescue; and anyway he originally wasn't planning to go all the way to Mordor. You are entitled to think he did the wrong thing, but at least he has an alternative course of action. In the film he just decides he's not needed any more. If the Uruk-Hai hadn't turned up, presumably he'd just get in his boat and head back north to Rivendell. No wonder Elrond has such contempt for him!;)

[Harad]

Nonononono,

In the Book Aragorn always says he would prefer to go to Minas Tirith, assuming I guess, that Gandalf would take care of the Quest. Without Gandalf he is OBLIGATED to take care of the Quest. All sympathy aside, M&P are expendable compared with job 1: The Quest.

In the Movie, in the end of the scene, Aragorn has to make the same decision as the Book (please go away NPWs--not that they read my posts anymore--hah!). The movie makes an attempt, perhaps it fails, TO MOTIVATE, Aragorns decision.

The decision in the Book, rescuing the expendable M&P vs. taking care of the Quest is an eyebrow raiser. In the Movie, the Ringbearer tells Aragorn "go away" so he might as well, a moment later, rescue M&P.

Would YOU vote for a King, who if the choices were:

1. rescue 2 cute cuddly hobbits.
2. support a Quest to save the world

chose 1?

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
The decision in the Book, rescuing the expendable M&P vs. taking care of the Quest is an eyebrow raiser.

Harad, if I remember right, Grond (or someone else, don't remember, sorry if I misquote someone) already answered this question in one of its previous incarnations. Let's assume for a moment that Aragorn went with S&F, and that, even though he himself did not know the way, he would somehow be better at hiding and finding an entrance than S&F by themselves. This is a plausible scenario. Now what happens 'at the other end'. M&P reach Saruman, are tortured, and in no time tell Saruman about the plan to destroy the Ring. Granted, Saruman still does not know what route Frodo is taking, but if the plan is to destroy the ring, I think he would consider the most direct route. What would Saruman do? I guess he would send spies, orcs, or maybe himself towards Mordor, trying to find Frodo. The chance of being found when someone is actively looking for you is higher than when you are somewhere where nobody expects you.
And what would happen with Sauron? I guess Saruman would not tell him what he's up to, but there is a chance that Sauron notices the high activity of Saruman in his area. An option is: capture a Saruman Orc, torture him: "what are you doing here" "eeuh looking for someone who is trying to sneak into mordor sir" "hmm, maybe I should guard my borders more carefully". Resulting in another increase of the chance of detection.

So Aragorn had to choose: letting M&P get tortured and increase the risk detection of F&S by a large fraction, despite him being there to help, or trying to rescue M&P, so that people won't be looking for F&S, so that, even though he's not there, they may find a way into Mordor. Seen in this light (which again is not my answer, but I got it from one of the wise members of the board), his decision is not as much of an eyebrow raiser as you make it sound.

Then there are the other two reasons more explicitly mentioned in the books: (1) the need for a diversion: pick a fight with Sauron, so that the ringbearer has a bigger chance to enter and destroy the ring. Who could do that better than Aragorn? This plan is mentioned by Gandalf, if i remeber right, but it may be the Aragorn himself figured it out too.
And finally Aragorn's intuition (my heart speaks clearly or something to that effect). If you want logic, this is a moot argument, but some people make decisions based on intuition, rather than logic.

[Thorin]

Well said, Bill.

Aragorn knew that the orcs that took M&P were Saruman's orcs, with him knowing Saruman's treachery it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Saruman's intentions were and the possible devestating consequences it could bring....Going after them wasn't just about saving M&P from torture and death, but it put the whole quest in jeopardy if they were found out....Gandalf and Elrond made it quite plain that the quest's success was secrecy... Frodo left without telling them for the reason that Frodo didn't want them on the trip. Add to that the pressing circumstances shows that this was something Aragorn felt he needed to respect...If he went after them, he probably knew that it would end up being what the movie portrayed: that Frodo felt he needed to go alone and Aragorn's effort to battle the enemy were better used elsewhere. So the movie basically came to the conclusion that Tolkien might have eventually: that Frodo felt he needed to go alone. They chose to show this rather than what did actually happen...

Once again, Tolkien new what he was doing when he wrote the scene he did, and he (and Aragorn) is vindicated despite Harad's continual attempt to force his own logic on the issues to discredit him....

Walk away from this one with your head held high, Harad...We'll still respect you.:)

[lilhobo]

we will ????????? :eek: :eek:

[Harad]

Sorry,

Doesnt knowing the whole rest of the story, make decisions for characters SO much easier?

For, me the decision he had to make, had to be made at the time in question. Help the Ringbearer as he had vowed to do, or help M&P.

Why dont you you both be consistent? Since he knows all about what Saruman is up to, and how the story is going to proceed, he should also know that Eomer will stop Ugluk, rescue M&P, thus leading to the Ent thread and on and on. His chase after M&P was in fact of no value, in terms of rescuing M&P.

But no, your "consistency" only goes so far as to justify your conclusions, no further.

And what about all the other things that happen? Incredibly people argue, then Aragorn couldnt have confronted Sauron with the Palantir. What a goshdurn genius Aragorn was, to anticipate that Saruman would be defeated, that Grima would throw down the Palantir, that Pippen would pick it up, and that Aragorn would use it to confront Sauron. All because he decided to abandon the Ring Bearer.

Laughable!

And now that we are arguing on LOGICAL grounds--how else to argue??--except notice how so many of your posts end with, "and if its not logical, so what? I never cared for logic anyway."

hehehehe

Let me hold your feet to the fire with regards to what Aragorn knew about Saruman. He knew from Gandalf that Saruman was looking for the Ring for HIS OWN SAKE. Ironically, the movie is a huge disappointment to NPWs who think that this theme is omitted by PG. So dont forget it now. So Aragorn could conclude, if he figures out your torture scenario, that Saruman might find out about the Ring and might get really P-Oed, but since the Ring is going to Morrdorr, Saruman cant do a blessed thing about it. Aragorn doesnt know anything about Saruman working for Sauron, and in fact he wasnt!, nor does he know about Saruman communicating with him. So why should he worry except for the potential harm to M&P.

If you REALLY want to be sensible why not send Legolas (and Gimli) after the Orc-party. 2 against 100 orcs is as good as 3. Then Aragorn could do what he was being paid for, and help save Middle Earth via the Quest, and directly right the wrong that his ancestor Isildur had done.

Sense, sense, and sense say that Aragorn should support the IMMEDIATE threat to the Ring--that Frodo might run into trouble--not a POTENTIAL threat to the Ring--that M&P through a chain of reasoning that Aragorn has no access to, could endanger the Ring.

Me give in? Hah!

[Snaga]

If you REALLY want to be sensible why not send Legolas (and Gimli) after the Orc-party. 2 against 100 orcs is as good as 3. Then Aragorn could do what he was being paid for, and help save Middle Earth via the Quest, and directly right the wrong that his ancestor Isildur had done.

That has some appeal, although I can't see the last 3 wanting to split up particularly. There are two parts to this argument: (1) does the book make sense and (2) does the film make sense.
You guys are debating the book, so I'll stick to my guns on the movie.

In the movie, NOONE is going to Minas Tirith. Not even Boromir. There is no dissension about where to go next, no thought of splitting up. Up to this point they are all happy campers, about to head east to Mordor.

5 minutes later Aragorn is saying: OK Frodo off you go on your own. The rest of us will all go home. The only rationale - perhaps the ring will tempt Aragorn. But Aragorn has clearly refuted this fear on Frodo's part. There is no plan B at this point for Aragorn. He was never going to Minas Tirith. M&P are not yet captured. Aragorn's choice is: Do I let Frodo go alone, or do I try to convince him to trust me and offer some help. What he does is to say 'You can trust me, now off you go.' Maybe you don't agree with Aragorn in the book, but there are options for him to weigh up. In the movie there are none.

Yes, after Boromir's funeral there is theoretically the same choice. But Aragorn has already made his mind up previously, when he meets Frodo on Amon Hen. The decision is made earlier than in the book. In the film, Aragorn is going to drink ale in the Prancing Pony, since having abandoned the quest, he won't be welcome in Rivendell any more.

[Thorin]

Harad,

Keep in mind that Saruman's treachery with taking the hobbits can only lead to trouble no matter what the case...Gandalf said at CoE concerning Saruman. "You reach out your hand to me but all I percieve is cold finger of Mordor." I don't believe that Saruman was a lacky of Sauron that the movie portrays, but that Sauron was using Saruman is not doubted in my mind. I think Aragorn would know that somehow Sauron would find out and all his focus would be on Saruman and Mordor's borders...There are infinite possibilities and all of them grim as to what could happen if the hobbits and the company were found out to any degree...

[Harad]

Thorin,
As you have conceded, the threat from Saruman has receded even farther. You would require Aragorn to abstract far indeed from the situation at hand to take the path in the book. Contrariwise, the situation with Frodo was a sure thing: If he is caught in Morrdorr the Ring will be taken by Sauron. You ask that Aragorn accept "infinite possibilities" rather than a sure thing. Think about Sam&Frodo wandering around Morrdorr without a protector! They were not safe in the Shire that way.

VofK,
I can't see the last 3 wanting to split up particularly

Sorry, but I dont see this as a good reason for noone, in particular Aragorn as the defacto leader, helping F&S.

I can not study the subtleties of the movie (not having it at home) as I can the book. Boromir CERTAINLY wished to go to MT. Whether anything else was said about different paths or Aragorn's connection with MT, I dont remember. I bet he was not left with going to the Prancing Pony as his only option after Frodo told him to bow out.

BTW, speaking of Frodo's courage, there is an instance in which the movie emphasizes it.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Thorin
Well said, Bill.
A compiment, a compliment! **does a little dance around his stable** eeuh, oops, not a compliment for me, but for whoever gave me this argument before. oh well, whoever it was, well said.




Originally posted by Harad
And what about all the other things that happen? Incredibly people argue, then Aragorn couldnt have confronted Sauron with the Palantir. What a goshdurn genius Aragorn was, to anticipate that Saruman would be defeated, that Grima would throw down the Palantir, that Pippen would pick it up, and that Aragorn would use it to confront Sauron. All because he decided to abandon the Ring Bearer.

Laughable!

Note that you are interpreting things that I did not write. I did not say that Aragorn should create a diversion using the Palantir, just that he needed to create a diversion. Now let's look where it would be best to create such a thing: When you are right next to the Ringbearer, or when you are far away from him. My guess is that the diversion works better if it's created far away from the ringbearer. Note that I am not implying anything in terms of what kind of diversion that may be. I am not using knowledge of the rest of the book.

So Aragorn could conclude, if he figures out your torture scenario, that Saruman might find out about the Ring and might get really P-Oed, but since the Ring is going to Morrdorr, Saruman cant do a blessed thing about it. Aragorn doesnt know anything about Saruman working for Sauron, and in fact he wasnt!, nor does he know about Saruman communicating with him. So why should he worry except for the potential harm to M&P.

Are you telling me that Aragorn would conclude that Saruman would say, "oh well, too bad Sauron gets it now, can't do anything about it, let's go smoke some weed?" It seems more logical to me, that Saruman would try to do something. Again, I don't know what, but it would increase Frodo's chance of detection.


If you REALLY want to be sensible why not send Legolas (and Gimli) after the Orc-party. 2 against 100 orcs is as good as 3. Then Aragorn could do what he was being paid for, and help save Middle Earth via the Quest, and directly right the wrong that his ancestor Isildur had done.

Hmm, that's a good point. I'll think about it for a while. In the mean time, why don't you tell me why not send Gimli after S&F and let Legolas and Aragorn hunt some orc (them being the faster)?

[stevehope]

In the book, I believe Aragorn has the same, not strictly logical, viewpoint as many other characters: things happen for reasons which are not necessarily made clear to us, but which are for the best. This is most clear in the attitude of Gandalf towards Gollum in the book--he may have a part yet to play, so let's let the wheel keep spinning on this one even though he's also the one who spilled the beans to Sauron about the whereabouts of the Ring, and we don't fully know whose side he is on now as he follows us on our journey.

Not entirely logical, but there you have it. And so, in Tolkien's world, it makes sense for Aragorn to abandon Frodo and Sam to their fate. He feels that it is intended to be that way, and though he would have followed them anywhere (note that Aragorn is NOT tempted by the Ring as explicitly in the book), he both understands Frodo's decision and feels it is his fate to take another path. In Tolkien's world, it makes more sense than it does in ours. I don't buy the argument that he was thinking, "Jeez! Merry and Pippin are going to spill the beans to Saruman!" He starts out tracking the Orcs fairly aware that it is a hopeless task, and never really (that I can remember) explicitly laments that F&S will be sound if M&P are taken to Saruman. If he DID worry about such a thing, you'd think that he (as the best tracker/"wilderness guy" of the age) would have thought the best course of action was to get to Frodo and lead him to Mordor ASAP, ahead of all the pursuing Orcs.

ANYWAY...

As for the movie, the big difference is that Frodo explicitly confronts Aragorn with the Ring. Aragorn passes the test, but not without some trepidation (note how long his hand hovers over the Ring). He understands Frodo's fear and his decision, and acknowledges that it is Frodo's choice to make. After that, he has no real decision to make. When Frodo says that he knows Aragorn would have come with him to the end, I think he is not saying that he is now supremely confident that Aragorn would be able to resist the lure of the Ring forever, but rather that he knows Aragorn's heart is in the right place and that the success of the quest and the destruction of the Ring is all that matters to him.

I don't think in either case that Aragorn makes the "wrong" decision. In the book, given the rather odd (to us) context of people being "fated" to do certain things (i.e. why didn't Elrond and Galadriel take more active roles in the battle against Sauron, being among the half-dozen most powerful beings in ME? You'd think that if they were trying to smokescreen the true trajectory of the Ring, the two of them should have been stirring up as much trouble as they could as well.), Aragorn's decision is understandable. In the film, he has effectively received "orders" from the Ringbearer to let him go, so he pursues the only avenue they have left.

Which plot device is better? I don't fully buy the movie's exchange between Frodo and Aragorn (I DON'T feel the character of Aragorn would necessarily EVER have fallen under the sway of the Ring, as Sam did not, and therefore am not entirely convinced of my own argument, though I think it's perfectly plausible), but I think the book's treatment of it is even LESS appealling from a "logical" standpoint, and would have turned off a number of casual viewers. So I'm going to side with the movie as having made a necessary concession to the medium and target fan base, but say that I think for people who know the characters in a more in-depth way from reading the book that the book's resolution, given the context of the world of ME, is more satisfying.

How's that for having it both ways and taking a lot of room to say nothing? :)

[Snaga]

I can not study the subtleties of the movie (not having it at home) as I can the book. Boromir CERTAINLY wished to go to MT. Whether anything else was said about different paths or Aragorn's connection with MT, I dont remember. I bet he was not left with going to the Prancing Pony as his only option after Frodo told him to bow out.

Harad fair enough - you'll have to trust me on this until you see it again. But I guarantee you it doesn't make sense. Even Boromir says nothing between at the Council of Elrond 'If this indeed be the will of the council then Gondor will see it done' and trying to take the ring from Frodo at Parth Galen. I kid you not, up until that point all 9 are going east.

On the book I'll back you up, to some extent.

Bill - as far as this Diversion Theory is concerned, I'm afraid that's pretty weak. There's no evidence in the book that this ever crossed Aragorn's mind until well after Parth Galen.

Thorin - whatever the geo-political niceties of the Uruk-Hai reaching Isengard with M&P are and implications for the secrecy of the quest are concerned (and your case is better than Bill's) you still will struggle to show anything from the text that suggests that is what is in Aragorn's mind.

No Harad is right. Aragorn makes a decision which is based on compassion for Merry and Pippin, and loyalty to companions who have been captured. He judges that he should pursue them rather than try to find and aid Frodo and Sam. I can see why Harad finds that difficult - surely the quest is more important?

In part I think this goes back to a question in another thread: noone has any real conception about how to get into Mordor. Aragorn doesn't really think he can help F&S particularly (although he's been through the Dead Marshes before). But more than that I think honour dictates to Aragorn that they must try to rescue M&P regardless, since F&S are at least still at liberty. And that sentiment binds all 3 together to try and help.

This goes against the popular Vulcan imperative 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' - but this isn't Star Trek! In general in LotR the good guys don't go around sacrificing pawns for the greater good - their take on morality precludes this. You are entitled to side with Spock against Aragorn on this - Spock is another strong proponent of logic.:D

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Thorin - whatever the geo-political niceties of the Uruk-Hai reaching Isengard with M&P are and implications for the secrecy of the quest are concerned (and your case is better than Bill's) you still will struggle to show anything from the text that suggests that is what is in Aragorn's mind.

If that were the case, why did Tolkien need to have Aragorn and company see the Uruk-hai dead and let them know that the hobbits were indeed being taken to Saruman....Tolkien lets the reader know that something is afoot and that given Saruman's reputation and cunning that something bad will happen to the quest. You honestly need to point that out to Aragorn, a ranger, future king of Gondor? I think that he had to make a decision, that either way, could turn the tide of the war. Otherwise it wouldn't have been so difficult...

Harad would be absoutely correct if it was just a matter of saving M&P and letting Frodo go on the quest alone....Aragorn would be a moron to do that.
As much as Aragorn loved the little hobbits, to go after them if he truly wanted to go after Frodo was an absolutely stupid move and if it came down to two hobbits or the fate of ME, he would have gone after Frodo...

The fact is is that it wasn't that easy because he knew that M&P were on there way to Saruman. He knew orcs don't capture...they kill. For them to take prisoners, and hobbits for that matter doesn't take a genius to figure out that Saruman wants the ring and could do major damage with it...His decision to follow M&P was in the better interests of the quest than going after Frodo especially considering the fact that Frodo was gone temporarily out of his reach.

As far as I'm concerned, Tolkien wrote the whole dilemma perfectly...Aragorn had a tough decision to make and all the factors show that it wasn't as cut and dried as you think....

[Grond]

I wonder how anyone can sit down and enjoy reading the works of JRRT. It appears that the whole plot of the works is illogical and nonsensical. I won't respond to this thread, I think, instead, I'll reread the works again to see why it is that I don't hate them. Amazing that 90 something million fans are all so enthusiastic about writings that make no sense. This is a true dilemma.:confused:

Harad, how do you explain this phenomenon? A world full of people reading books that are totally illogical and worse, they just don't make sense. That has to be the most illogical thing about the whole of the LotR. It has so very many people buying up copies. Stupidity? Confusion??? or is it Genius???:rolleyes:

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by Grond
Stupidity? Confusion??? or is it Genius???:rolleyes:


confusion more like it, the male bonding, coming of age th@ng hehehe :D
ARAGORN saves BOROMIR. Sort of.



BOROMIR

Aragorn. I always loved you.



ARAGORN

Um…

[Harad]

I don't have time for more....
but I am ready to die in peace or more accurately leave this forum in peace if required by the powers that be. (one never knows do one?)

V of K, a paragorn or rectictude, belove-ed by all, agrees that here or there, on minor issues, I might have a point.

[Grond]

Harad, you have many, many valid points. I don't think it is your arguments that makes you at odds with many on the forum, it is merely in the way you put them forward. It is apparent that you are intelligent and have thought out your comments and your logic. It's just that you are so concrete and immoveable in them that everyone realizes that an argument if futile because despite being confronted with evidence to the contrary, you won't give an inch. Compromise is a word that you should look up in the dictionary and add to your vocabulary.

Having said that, I sincerely regret not being able to speak in a more civil tone with you, but your own responses have always simply made me more angry. For my part in getting all of your posts deleted, I apologize. I know that won't bring them back of undo all of the work you put into them.... but the apology is there anyway.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
...Thorin - whatever the geo-political niceties of the Uruk-Hai reaching Isengard with M&P are and implications for the secrecy of the quest are concerned (and your case is better than Bill's) you still will struggle to show anything from the text that suggests that is what is in Aragorn's mind.

No Harad is right. Aragorn makes a decision which is based on compassion for Merry and Pippin, and loyalty to companions who have been captured. He judges that he should pursue them rather than try to find and aid Frodo and Sam. I can see why Harad finds that difficult - surely the quest is more important?

In part I think this goes back to a question in another thread: noone has any real conception about how to get into Mordor. Aragorn doesn't really think he can help F&S particularly (although he's been through the Dead Marshes before). But more than that I think honour dictates to Aragorn that they must try to rescue M&P regardless, since F&S are at least still at liberty. And that sentiment binds all 3 together to try and help.

This goes against the popular Vulcan imperative 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' - but this isn't Star Trek! In general in LotR the good guys don't go around sacrificing pawns for the greater good - their take on morality precludes this. You are entitled to side with Spock against Aragorn on this - Spock is another strong proponent of logic.:D VoK, I agree with you and Harad concerning Aragorn's motives. I have argued wrongly before of the compromise of the mission but, as you say, Aragorn doesn't speak of that in making his decision. He simply says,
"...if I seek him (Frodo) now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. ..The Company has played its part. Yet we who remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come!..."

Ironically, this quote also goes a long way to giving the reason why Aragorn doesn't follow Frodo. Aragorn made a determination that, "...the Company has played its part..." And then there is the fact that as the party leaves Imladris, Elrond says these last words to the party, "This is my last word,... The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road." Aragorn made a choice that saving Merry and Pippin was a duty owed to members of the Fellowship. His escort of Frodo into Mordor would not significantly improve the odds of completing the quest (it was hopeless anyway). So, Aragorn followed Elrond's advice and chose the path of attempting to rescue the Hobbits.

As to the argument that it was illogical for three to pursue the Orcs, who numbered well over a hundred, Boromir killed at the least twenty in hand to hand combat. It seems to me that Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn would have given them a good battle; especially if the orc tally count of Helm's Deep is any indication. How many Aragorn slew is not known but the number tallied by Gimli and Legolas ended with 83.

[Greenwood]

As to the argument that it was illogical for three to pursue the Orcs, who numbered well over a hundred, Boromir killed at the least twenty in hand to hand combat. It seems to me that Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn would have given them a good battle; especially if the orc tally count of Helm's Deep is any indication. How many Aragorn slew is not known but the number tallied by Gimli and Legolas ended with 83.

I am joing this thread late and need to read the whole thing, but just to support Grond's point above, when the three of them were at the edge of Fangorn didn't Gimli asked what could they could do if they found Merry and Pippin other than sit down and starve together? And didn't Aragorn say that if that was all they could do to show their friendship than it was what they should do (or words to that effect)? Earlier didn't Gimli (?) say to Eomer that to save their friends in need he would not stop to count orc heads except with his ax (or words to that effect)? All this is just to say that I believe Grond is absolutely right and Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are showing the tremendous weight they place on friendship and loyalty (in contrast to the spirit of Mordor).

[Gwaihir]

I have a very different take on Aragorn's decision at Parth Galen. Throughout the story Aragorn is growing into his role as King (in the movie they seem to be making much more of this development that the book does). Early on he relies on Gandalf, and is thrust into the leadership role when Gandalf is lost. He is uncertain, and tries to reason out each decision. This does not go well.

At Parth Galen Aragorn finally begins to think like Gandalf. The most wise, in LOTR as in "real-life", understand the limits of their wisdom. They know that they cannot "see all ends". Importantly, this is something that the most clever beings in middle-earth, arguably Sauron and Saruman, do not properly appreciate.

It is true that Aragorn could not have known how events would turn out, and that his pursuit of M&P would, in the end, be a key part of the success of the quest. He did know, because he is becoming one of the "wise", that such a turn of events was possible (we know that too, becasue we've read the rest of the book and know what happens, so he cannot be held foolish for holding true beliefs). He also realizes, in his wisdom and experience, that chasing after Frodo, apparently against Frodo's wishes (the Ringbearer has some authority in these matters) could well be the wrong move. All agree that the ring must be "secreted" into Mordor, it cannot be forced.

Aragorn's great breakthrough is to stop trying to reason it all out. Aragorn submits to the flow of events, saying "My heart speaks clearly at last". He is opening himself to the subtle clues around him. It's a very "Gandalf" moment, and, to one perspective, a very courageous decision. That it turn's out so well is Tolkien's way of showing us that our hearts can lead where our heads often fail us.

[Grond]

Mousie, most of us (including me) are flexible in our beliefs. I have repeatedly stated that the Gap of Rohan was a viable and logical choice. I have stated that Aragorn abandoning Merry and Pippin would likely have been catastrophic to the quest but understandable, given the circumstances. It is not those opposing Harad's point of view that are being bull headed or stubborn. It is Harad's inflexibility to admit that any option, other than the one he states, has merit.

I will again restate that it appears in most debates as you and Harad against the world. Hellen Ready wrote a song about it. "You and me against the world". A great song of the 80's but one can hardly remember all the words to it anymore, mainly because two against the world always loses. Do you get my drift???:rolleyes:

[Snaga]

Does describing Harad as inflexible constitute a personal attack?? Hmm if so I'd have to report you to a moderator. Oh. You are a moderator. Obviously not a personal attack them!! How silly of me:D

[lilhobo]

hey Squeeky is "banned", i wanna have "master baiter" under my name :D

heck you have to be a fanatic t be a moderator around here, abusing directors with fecile descriptives, whose only ambition is to satisfy all tolkienites, ravage the bestest-est film in the whole wide world, torment poor innocent elven princesses

thats how u get to be top dog aroound here :eek:

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by Grond
For my part in getting all of your posts deleted, I apologize. I know that won't bring them back of undo all of the work you put into them.... but the apology is there anyway.



ahhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!the truth is right here !!! :eek:

[Grond]

Originally posted by lilhobo
hey Squeeky is "banned", i wanna have "master baiter" under my name :D

heck you have to be a fanatic t be a moderator around here, abusing directors with fecile descriptives, whose only ambition is to satisfy all tolkienites, ravage the bestest-est film in the whole wide world, torment poor innocent elven princesses

thats how u get to be top dog aroound here :eek: I admit to the first charge, all others are unproven. (You know from my posts that I liked the film).

[Harad]

Gwahir:

No doubt that Aragorn "grows" during the book. I will be seeing the movie again to pay attention to that aspect.

After Gandalf falls , Aragorn becomes the defacto leader of the Fellowship. IMO he must do what Gandalf would have done to keep the spirit of the CoE goal. Therefore he must ask the question at decision time, "What would Gandalf had done?" The answer would be to accompany F&S on the quest, perhaps send L&G after the Orc party.

The other decision leads to many consequences all of them good for the plot and the story. The "sink or swim" attitude that Aragorn shows toward F&S is a choice that most everybody posting agrees with, but it reminds me of the literal scene like that in the movie "Slaughterhouse 5."

[Snaga]

I don't 'agree' as such with Aragorn decision. But it would be pointless to disagree - since he was vindicated ultimately!

I don't really want to answer the 'what would you have done' type question, because if you're not there its incredibly hard to say, isn't it? I can see why someone might think Aragorn was obliged to go and help Frodo. I can see why Aragorn by contrast thought he was obliged to chase Merry and Pippin. If it was easy, we wouldn't be discussing it. Both have merit, which makes it a real dilemma. BTW its important that at this point of crisis when a decision must be made that Aragorn is decisive.

The option to send L&G after M&P while Aragorn goes after F&S. It doesn't appear to have been contemplated by Aragorn - I think he wanted to keep the remaining 3 together. But nevertheless it should be considered. The main downside to it that I can see would be that they may not have had confidence in L&G's ability to track and find M&P. The orc trail was mostly quite obvious, but if the orcs split up, or the hobbits escaped or something, L&G would not have noticed necessarily. And if you're going to send some people after M&P, they've got to be able to do the job I think.

I'd be interested in other opinions on that though.:)

[Harad]

Having seen the movie again last night I am more qualified In My Own Mind to describe Aragorn's movie decision:

1. He meets Frodo who is descending from Amon Hen. (And BTW Frodo removes the Ring on Amon Hen without backstage coaching by Gandalf--a 'braver' Frodo in the movie than in the book?)

2. Frodo is afraid of Aragorn having just been attacked by the other man, Boromir. Aragorn relieves Frodo's fears, but Frodo announces his intention to keep to the resolution he made at Lorien, i.e. go go it alone. This all fits in with the grand theme of the movie that Men are constitutionally unable to destroy the Ring.

3. Aragorn reluctantly agrees to let Frodo go JUST AS Sting begins glowing blue. Aragorn makes the heroic decision to fight 1 gazillion orcs to allow Frodo to escape.

4. After the fight (in which M&P also heroically save Frodo, not present in the book, and only possible because Frodo does not put the Ring on again after Amon Hen), Legolas begins to push the canoe to cross the River and follow F&S. This is very good in the movie since it shows that at least one member of the remaining Fellowship realizes how important it is to help F&S. Aragorn having already resigned himself to his decision, tells Legolas to let them go, and instead go after a secondary goal: saving M&P, and to "be true to the Fellowship."

Therefore, the movie tries to motivate Aragorn's decision more strongly by emphasizing the overwhelming theme, the weakness of Man with regards to the Ring. I dont believe that the "weakness of Man" is the only theme. The strengths are very eviudent too, e.g. Boromir's sacrifice.

[Ged]

I think you have got it exactly right, Harad. Viggo Mortensen has made a decision as an actor to portray some self-doubt in Aragorn. This is clear throughout the film, and it is only towards the end (after Moria, and at Rauros) that Aragorn's true forcefulness, majesty and leadership begin to come through.

Now this is a slightly different tack from the book, but not much. Aragorn MUST HAVE had some doubts, it is only human. For example, he is unsettled by Arwen's giving up her immortal life for him, and it is to some extent a "burden" on him. But wouldn't it be so for anyone? It means he has to prove himself good enough for her sacrifice. This is reinforced by Elrond's insistence that he will not marry his daughter to any man who is not at least the king of both Gondor and Arnor. So again, Aragorn is always having to prove himself.

FACT: it was the weakness/lack of wisdom of Isildur that led to all this mess. Don't blame PJ for that! And Aragorn and Elrond know this. Aragorn must have asked himself: Would I have done the same thing if the ring had come to me? The scene where he puts his hand near the ring then passes the test is a visualisation of this feeling.

We don't need to argue: which is a better treatment of the scene at Rauros, film or book. I have never thought there was any problem with the book version. Equally, I can see great merit in the film version. It works very well, and does not need to be compared to the book.

Last point: it has been said that in the film the discussion between Frodo and Aragorn about Frodo going off alone is too rushed. Actually, I don't think Frodo actually says those words, it is that Aragorn already knows inside that this is the wise course of action and the words do not need to be said. He then kneels and says "I would have followed you ..." etc. He already knows in his heart what Frodo wants to do. Then, before they can really discuss it further, the Uruk-Hai appear, and Aragorn bravely is ready to give his life against overwhelming odds to ensure Frodo escapes.

The film interpretation works extremely well for me.

[Harad]

More recent movie observations:

Frodo has recently escaped from Boromir and Amon Hen so he still has the Ring in his hand, when Aragorn finds him. To "test" Aragorn, Frodo opens his hand. Aragorn closes Frodo's hand around the Ring to show he has passed the test. Frodo then tells Aragorn his decision to go alone (motivated by the scene in Lorien), and asks Aragorn to take care of the others, especially Sam, since Sam will not understand. Aragorn says that he would have gone with Frodo until the end, but before he can finish that thought, Sting starts glowing and Aragorn alone attacks 1.5 gazillion orcs so Frodo can escape.

To me this is an EXTREMELY well motivated decision on Aragorns part.

Similary Merry and Pipsqueek sacrifice themselves so that Frodo can make it, alone.

The only one that is still prepared to follow Frodo is Legolas, who hasnt had the "chat" or interaction with Frodo that the others (aside from Gimli) had. Aragorn convinces Legolas to let Frodo go.

And BTW, all this, which IMO works quite well in the movie, is only possible because Frodo does NOT put the Ring back on minutes after escaping from Sauron on Amon Hen.

[Bill the Pony]

What I did not understand is that Frodo first says he does not trust Aragorn. (he says something like stay away, you're not going to be able to resist it either). And then he just keeps standing there giving Aragorn every chance to take the ring away from him.
If he did not trust Aragorn as he says, then he should have slipped the ring on again and disappeared. If he did trust Aragorn (as he should), then he should not have said: stay away.

[Harad]

You are correct in your description and perhaps puzzlement.

One (and I mean me) can only postulate that Aragorn's innate nobility shown thru and Frodo was willing to risk all by letting him pass the test. When it was Boromir, different story... based upon recent history.

Of course Frodo's immediate reaction was wary, since Boromir had just gone kerflooey. But Aragorn said and did the right things.

[Bill the Pony]

Hmm, does that mean PJ has Frodo doing something illogic just for the sake of the story? After all, it would have been much more logic for Frodo, especially after having just seen Boromir, to just put on the ring and run away, and not even listen to what Aragorn has to say. But then, we would not have seen what a great guy Aragorn is...

[Mlangley]

FRODO WAS TEMPTING ARAGORN EXACTLY BECAUSE HE DID NOT TRUST ARAGORN, AND DEEP IS HIS HEART HE WANTS TO TRUST HIM THAT IS WHY FRODO PUT THE RING INFRONT OF HIM... I GUESSS

[Harad]

You want logic I give you logic:

1. Frodo had just escaped from Sauron wearing the Ring. So he didnt want to put it back on again.

2. Frodo wanted to trust Aragorn

3. Frodo wanted Aragorn's help

4. What Mlangley said could enter it it.

[Bill the Pony]

I'll give up pretty soon, but let's see

1. won't go there. see other thread, don't have anything to add

2. seems to be the same as 4. What comes first: protecting your quest, or wanting to feel good about a friend?

3. No, he did not want Aragorn's help. He wanted to go alone. Since Frodo did not know yet that there were orcs around, what did he need Aragorn's help for?

[Harad]

1. skittish pony--remember this is the movie

2. you cant ignore 1 if you want to protect your quest...remember he got away from Boromir first, then Sauron. Also psychologically speaking (not logic per se) he was about to go off on his own, and he wanted one last show of support.

3. He wanted his help in protecting his friends especially Sam, and in getting across the River safely. Also, and this is a biggie, no telling when Boromir would come back.

[Bill the Pony]

Ok, attempt at 1, although I'm sure I won't convince you.
a. as mentioned somewhere else. Maybe Sauron can only see him on top of the seat of seeing. Hints in that direction: Sauron never found him or bilbo when wearing the ring before. He wore the ring all the way up to the seat, but only saw the eye when he got there.
b. choose between immediate danger of losing the ring, or risk of being found by Sauron, with a chance to escape after that (as shown by being able to escape before). Rather choose avoiding immediate danger.

2. you're right psychologically possible, but not logic.

3. what's more important: protecting quest or protecting Sam?(logically, not psychogically). Avoided Boromir once already. Now that Frodo knows what B is up to, he should be able to avoid him again.

[Harad]

Ok, you may be outa here soon, but I know you are trying to reverse my usual arguments--

Frodo is running from Boromir in the weirded-out Ring World. He gets to Amon Hen, looks over yonder, and is almost blasted out of his head by the Big Red Eye. Logically speaking, is he going to go thru the mental steps that you recited, or is he gonna be a Little Leery (Timothy's son) of putting the Ring back on.

Frodo knew there was difference between Aragorn and Boromir throughout the movie. PJ went to great pains to point out the difference every chance he could:

1. Council of Elrond
2. Caradhras
3. Parth Galen BEFORE the crises--Aragorn was making plans to cross the River, Boromir was making plans for you-know-what.

Frodo's initial reaction to Aragorn was due to his close escape from Boromir and general resentment toward "power-hungry" men. Upon further reflection he remembered that Aragorn was the good guy--remember Bree-to Rivendell too! That together with Frodo's reluctance to put on the Ring again, and desire for some more human interaction before going to Mordor on his own, led him to risk trusting Aragorn.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
I know you are trying to reverse my usual arguments--
Yep, and look at the arguments you're coming up with. Concern for Sam, desire for approval or human interaction? Come on, these mere human desires should fade to nothing with respect to The Quest...:)
If he wanted human interaction, he should have gone to Legolas (or was it Glorfindel?), since Legolas is not enough of a friend to insist on coming, and elves are less corruptible than humans.

Upon further reflection he remembered that Aragorn was the good guy--
Even if this is the case (despite the more logic conclusion to play it safe and not find out he's wrong) the least thing he should have done is put the ring away, instead of holding it out to Aragorn. Because
1. Frodo knows: Bilbo not seeing the ring = nice guy; Bilbo seeing the ring = monster
2. He should have his hands free to defend himself if necessary. (Oh, stupid me, wimpy movie-Frodo doesn't do stuff like that...;) )

[Harad]

Good enuf...At least you've had the practice of thinking logically. Now apply the same to Aragorn's decision in the Book. Contrast and compare.

[Bill the Pony]

Nah, that's been done already. I still like the 'preventing Saruman to catch the hobbits' argument.

[Harad]

Ok, but that one requires Aragorn to have read The Two Towers.

Bottom line, decisions are not a slam dunk when there's reasons on both sides. Some are better motivated than others. I found it interesting that PJ's presentation attempted to add motivation to Aragorn's decision, as I thought it needed. Whether PJ succeeded is in the eye of the viewer.

[Wood Elf]

Wow, I learn so much just from watching you guys go at it! I think Harad said it best in his post (2-1-02) after he had seen the movie. Wow you guys...