Wings or No?

[Beorn]

Did Balrogs have Wings? What do you think, rather than what you evidence thinks....I don't want people to argue, just whether they have wings...

[Ciryaher]

Of course! The book even says so.

[Thorondor]

I don't think that they did. I know it describes them somewhere, I guess I better look it up.

Don't worry, I don't plan on starting an arguement.:D

[ReadWryt]

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

I don't need to say anything else.

[Iluvatar]

I had been swayed by a previous paragraph that described the shadow behind him as being "like two vast wings," but this passage by ReadWyrt has convinced me that Balrogs did in fact have wings.

[Lantarion]

In one of Howe's paintings, or some other artist's, the Lord of Balrogs doesn't have wings. I think he looks like an exceptionally large and ugly troll, and the wings add a much-needed touch to his mien.
No intended argument-starting content. :D

[Rosie Cotton]

I'm pretty sure that the balrog did have wings. I used to think that he didn't, that they only had "shadowy" wings that weren't there in the physical sense, but the quote from the book is

and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings

so it was the shadow surrounding the balrog that was being described in this part, and later when the balrog is being described as spreading his wings from wall to wall it probably meant real physical wings.

How do you picture the balrog, aside from the wings? I've always imagined him as a giant monster, by monster meaning a type of devil/beasty creature all red and horned. When reading this part of the book just now to find the quote, I just reformed how I've always pictured him. The book describes him as "a great shadow in the midst of which was a great being, possibly of man shape, yet greater". I now have a much more terrifying image then my devil creature. I now picture a giant man, engulfed in flame and shadow, but scarily human, wielding a whip, you can barely see the man in the midst of the shadow, but his outline is there and you can almost see the look of hatred upon his face.

:rolleyes: Of course it's really hard to picture him like this and still see him as having wings. So I think that Tolkien intended for him to have wings, I just don't picture them when I picture the balrog.

[Gothmog]

I do not and never have believed that Balrogs had wings. The quote that ReadWryt posted could just as easily mean the shadow of the Balrog as this had already been discribed as reaching out "like two vast wings". Therefore the 'wings' mentioned later were probably the Shadow of the Balrog reaching the walls. I don't think that Tolkin thought of the Balrogs as having wings as there is no mention of such things anywhere else.

[Dengen-Goroth]

I agree with you Gothmog. I can never imagine, and haven't, Balrogs with wings.

[Iluvatar]

I have always pictured Balrogs as having wings, and ReadWyrt's quotation confirms it in my mind. Nevertheless, I do concede the validity of Gothmog's posting; I just don't agree with it. My first view of Balrogs came from the 1979 Tolkien calendar. That year was devoted to scenes from Bakshi's film. As terrible as that movie was it did contain some sensational artwork. The portrayal of the Balrog will forever be the one that I think of.

[ReadWryt]

To presume that when Tolkien said that the Balrog's wings spread from wall to wall meant that he REALLY meant the Shadows is to impune his ability to susinctly describe events and scenes. I think that if you read his works you will find that he had a firm grasp on describing PRECISELY what he meant, and with tremendous detail and accuracy.

[Gothmog]

I impugn NOTHING!!! I interpret that which I read, as do you!!! I think that if you Read his Works you will find that he allows each to interpret acording to his abilities. That is why so many people enjoy his works so much!! Also why there are so many discusions about the finer points of his works.

[Iluvatar]

I agree with Gothmog about the importance of our interpreting the works of Tolkien ourselves, even if the old **** is wrong about Balrogs and their wings. Tolkien implied on several occasions that he was just a translator of the Red Book of Westmarch (note that the Redbook's version of Gamgee is actually Galbasi (or Galpsi). This creates the possibility of the fallible author and the fallible narration. We have two conflicting paragraphs, found on the same page. One said "like wings" and the other very definitely said "wings." What did Tolkien mean? What did Frodo (Tolkien's author) mean? I prefer to believe that they meant that Balrogs had wings, but the old **** believes that they meant that Balrogs did not have wings. Who's right? Well, obviously I am, since the old ****'s brain cells have obviously deteriorated after a life of profligate living, but it doesn't mean that he's impugning Tolkien, or Frodo.

[Gothmog]

Well said Iluvatar. My view of the Balrog was formed before I saw the film or any artwork of Balrogs, Therefore, to me the images by others look wrong. Just my view.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with my brain cells. Both of them are working fine. It is just that sometimes they do not speak to each other!!!:D :D :D

[Thorondor]

Like I said before, I don't think they had wings, but extended their power in a consuming darkness(shadowy wings).

I am also suprised that no one has brought up the point Why didn't the Balrog fly out of the Abyss with its wings? Shadows can't fly, and wings can.

Rosie- Doesn't it also say there, or somewhere, that it had a flaming whip, and a flaming sword/or mace?

[Rosie Cotton]

Yes, it does says he had a flaming whip and a sword. I don't remember anything about a mace though.

[Thorondor]

Oh, I think it said that in the Sil.

[Kementari]

'Why did the Balrog cross the road???

Well, no ones knows if the Balrog acually crossed the road or not - the "road" may have been metaphorical, Tolkien was very unclear' :D

Everybodie has their own visions, it is not use argueing! But it does say WINGS in the text, so I believe that the Balrog may have had them...

Maybe there was not enough room for the Balrog to spread his wings and fly off!!

[ReadWryt]

You mean I'm not the ONLY "old ****" around here?

I'm just saying that the same man who could take up nearly a page and a half describing Minas Tirith, or as the party approached Rivendell, when he says "Echoes ran along as they hurried forward; and there seemed to be a sound of many footfalls following their own.", then later says, "He did not obey at once, for a strange reluctance seized him. Checking the horse to a walk, he turned and looked back. The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist.", are we to assume that the Black Riders horses had no feet because the former statement said there only Seemed to be footfalls following?

I tend to think that the author had the marvelous habbit of saying what he meant, and quite eloquently described what he meant us to see, hear and feel. Frodo is quite obviously being dragged down by what previously had been described as something "like a great weight upon him", and in the end it indeed manifested as a great weight, literally and figuratively.

I meant no insult in saying that to not take literally Tolkien's assertion that Wings spread from wall to wall was to impune his skills, but as a sound can be LIKE footfalls when in actuallity they are, could not the Shadows of Wings turn out to reveal themselves as actual wings?

As for why Balrogs don't fly, ask an ostrach or penguin..*Shrug*

[Gothmog]

It would seem that you are not.

Why do you want everything to be of one view? Only one way to interpret the whole of the writings of Tolkin?

I agree! He was marvelous at making sure that we would have his view of things he ment us to see, feel or hear. Does that prove that he did mean us to see the Balrog in a particular way? No, it means that when he wanted us to see, feel or hear something in a certain way he would do so. Otherwise he would leave some ambiguity so that we could use our own imagination and thereby be part of the story!

Yes, The shadows of wings could have turned out to be actual wings, but they could also have turned out to be shadows so dark as to seem solid. As I said it is a matter of interpretation.

As for the Ostrich, it's wings are to small to bear the weight of it's body in flight.

The penguin uses it's wings to "fly" under the water. The movements of it's wings to travel under water are the same that other birds use to move through the air.

[ReadWryt]

You all may b missunderstanding me, I don't know. It just seems to be that the last thing an author would want to do is cause confusion. *Shrug* N`ere mind...I'll leave this one to the Lord of Balrogs and High Captain of Angband.

[Lantarion]

I always picture the Balrog w/ wings. Why couldn't he both have wings AND strech out a shadowy muck? And the reason why he didn't fly out of the abyss in Moria is (in my opinion) because Gandalf, a very powerful Maia and wizard, was kicking his ass (pardon my French), and the poor, ickle Balroggy-woggy was probably in the throws of fairly sizeable clutches of pain, and couldn't function properly. When he cooled off (ie, almost drowned in the freezing water under the Bridge), he most likely ran off into the fabled tunnels under Khazad-Dum, and eventually scampered into the Tower, where he fell.

[Thorondor]

Pontifex-

Now that is a reason that actually seems to make sense to me, and I could actually believe that more than others saying, the book said the word wings, so they had to be wings. I don't think that the balrog was that terribly destroyed though, until reaching the water.
JMO:)

[Gothmog]

Thorondor, The reasons, physical wings, wings of shadow or both, All make sense. Any of them could be true, it is just a matter of how each person pictures the Balrog. I was not arguing that my view has to be the one that every body accepts, only that I picture the Balrog without wings and my defence of that picture. Others will have a different picture.

ReadWryt, the confusion does not come from the author. We are the ones disusing the finer points of a book writen by some one that we have not talked to. I accept your view of the Balrog's wings and the writings of Tolkin. But I will still defend My views on them.

[Ciryaher]

Whether they were made of fire, flesh, or shadow...wings are wings.

[Thorondor]

ciryaher, yes on that point I do agree then they did have wings, but obviously everyone here is discussing whether they are liturally wings or not

[Dagorlad]

I too have wondered if real wings were meant, or if the Balrog used his own power over fear, fire, and darkness to create them. I see no significant difference, like Ciryahir said, and I don't believe Tolkien intended us to believe the creature could fly anyway. Real or percieved wings, I have no real opinion. There are a number of very obvious reasons why it may not have been able to fly out of the chasm(assuming it had actual capacity for flight), not the least of which is that it had Gandalf heading down as well, and Gandalf would have been clinging (especially if the Balrog might fly)and perhaps hewing with his sword as well. Flying up would have brought Gandalf up. But I don't believe we are intended to think there was a chance of that happening anyway.
I have seen a thread for discussion of the paths of the dead in some forum here. An arguement in there was quite the same. Tolkien said exactly what he meant, and was very good at doing it with few words.
Also, Gothmog you told ReadWryt in your last post that the confusion doesn't come from the author. I think that's exactly what ReadWryt was trying to say in his previous posts.

Picture the demon from the movie "Legend", with a slightly less human face simply because it looks more evil, add glowing white or red eyes, make it black as charcoal, bigger, with some long, straight unkempt looking black hair, black wings like a bat, and rippled with muscle. My Balrog.

[Gothmog]

Dagorlad, ReadWryt was answering a point that I made that Tolkien could describe exactly what he wished us to see when he wanted, but that did not mean that every thing he described had to be done with the same attention to detail. Some things he could have left to the readers interpretation. ReadWryt disagreed me.

Very nice picture of your Balrog. Amputate the wings and you have pretty much a picture of my Balrog.:)

Cian, thank you for the quotes, Shows that any interpretation could be the right one.:)

[Lantarion]

Now that you mention it, I can't really picture a Balrog flying, without him looking pretty silly.

WARNING: side-tracking content approaching! :D

as a side note: The first time I read the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, I thought Legolas was speaking in his own language when he cried,
"A Balrog!". It may have been, since the word 'Balrog' is Sindarin, as is the exclamation 'A' (or is that 'ai'?). It's kind of strange...

[Talierin]

I think they had wings, but they were about as useful as an ostrich's......
A big, flame-demon flying.... nope, can't see it......

[Telchar]

I lean towards the idea that they had something that looked like wings but were not wings in the sense that birds have wings. They could envelop themselves in shadow, similar to Ungoliant, and this shadow could look like wings. I do think they could fly but they had enough power to do so without needing wings.

Balrogs were Maiar. I think that they may have been able to change their appearance in the beginning, but as they expended their power they lost this ability. So if one had wings, others may not.

[Thorin]

Sil mentions the episodes in one of the battles against Morgoth that he released the powers of Angband and there were many Balrogs let loose? And also when Ungoliante snared Morgoth, he cried out and a bunch of Balrogs came to his aid?

To me, these episodes imply swiftness and efficiency. How would it look if Morgoth yells, "Help!!!" And here comes a few Balrogs huffing and puffing it on foot a few miles away from over the mountains, "Yes, master..(pant,pant)..we're coming! Just hold on for a bit (huff, puff) and we'll save you from the vicious arachnid!"

I think to have come so swiftly at Morgoth's cry s well to have been released on the elves with the force and fear they had means that they probably would have had to have wings.

Ya think?...:rolleyes:

[Gothmog]

Telchar, Very good points.

Thorin, The argument about wings aside, there is no evidence to show that Balrogs flew In the Dagor Bragollach, Tolkien wrote that rivers of flame ran down swifter than balrogs. Which to me gives the idea that Balrogs moved on the ground rather than in the air.
Balrogs are Maiar and could probably move with great speed on land. One other point, if Balrogs could fly why did Earendil and all the great birds not become involved in the war of wrath until the attack of Ancalagon and the winged dragons?

[El-ahrairah]

Ok, I don't want to stir up any emotions here; however, in my searching for more info on the upcoming (hopefully great) trilogy of movies, I have run into an enormous amount of discussion on Balrogs and if they have wings or no. Let me set the record straight.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert on LotR, but let me quote this:

From FotR The Bridge of Khazad-Dum:

"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall; but Gandolf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."

How can anyone think Balrogs DON'T have wings? At least this one. And if even ONE has wings, you cannot claim "Balrogs don't have wings".

Can they fly? That is another question altogether.

[Beorn]

How can someone say that? Easily. Read Two paragraphs before that...
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip and the thongs whined and cracled. Fire cam from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

It says like. Tolkien was very precise with his words...
Source:http://www.tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/fly.html

[El-ahrairah]

Ok, perhaps I read it wrong. I saw the earlier paragraph I also perhaps gave Tolken too much credit with his precision.

I simply read it as "its shadow spread like wings" but later saying "its wings spread from wall to wall" not "it's shadow like wings spread from wall to wall"

A matter of interpretation, like I said I'm not trying to cause heartache to those who believe; however, I find it hard to believe he would be specific in one paragraph then not in another. If it were a shadow, he wouldn't have said "it's wings spread from wall to wall"

Hehe, I wonder which path the movie will take. Question: will anyone give the movie a bad rating just because this scene isn't as one hopes?

[Telchar]

I know that there is another thread like this somewhere on the board.. But I can't find it.. :(

Balrogs where maiar, and maiar could take the shape they wanted, so wouldn't you think that the balrogs looked differently? Or do you belive that all the maiar who followed Melcor took the exact same shape? Since they had the will to decide their shape in the beginning some, probably, chose wings, others may not. So if one have wings, it dosn't mean that al had wings..

[Iluvatar]

Since it seems to be a given that Tokien was so very precise with his words, then it should also be a given that balrogs (at least this one - very good point by Telchar) *do* have wings. In one paragraph its shadow spread like wings, and in an ensuing paragraph it explicitly states that 'its wings were sread from wall to wall.' Given Tolkien's accepted precision with his words, this obviously indicates that the balrog had wings, *and* that the balrog's shadow spread out like wings. And, of course, a shadow appearing to spread like wings becomes less surprising once you realise that the item casting the shadow *has* wings.

Also, why can't balrogs fly? I've always envisioned them as doing so, and even once wrote an aborted short story along those lines. I don't understand the emotional abhorrence of the idea of balrogs flying.

[Lantarion]

I think that, as a Maia, a Balrog can take perhaps not any shape, but shapes like fire, shadow and the like are obvious possibilities.
I think that Balrogs perhaps use wings to frighten their opponent, like a peacock. I think that they can fly, but they don't need wings, being demi-gods and all (but it's cool to think of them flying w/ wings), and they possibly don't need to fly at all, because the foolish carrot who stands up to a Balrog (no offence, Gandalf :) ) is dead before you can say 'Balrogs don't have wings'.
Oh, and welcome El-ahrairah, have a great time at this insane place. :rolleyes:

[Beorn]

Yeah, welcome. The book says "shadow about it reached out like two vast wings," so if it later says wings, the wings would be referred to as shadows...

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Telchar


Balrogs where maiar, and maiar could take the shape they wanted, so wouldn't you think that the balrogs looked differently? Or do you belive that all the maiar who followed Melcor took the exact same shape? Since they had the will to decide their shape in the beginning some, probably, chose wings, others may not. So if one have wings, it dosn't mean that al had wings..

That is not necessarily true, Telchar. Considering Tolkien said that there were probably only 7 Balrogs, they were probably all the same...that's why they were all called Balrogs. Taking the shape of a specific "race" would imply the same parameters of those who take it. Look at the Istari, they all had staffs and the same powers, they probably looked quite the same as well. I can't see some of the Maia at the beginning saying, "Hmm, I don't think that I really want to carry around a staff all day. You guys can have one, I want something smaller, like a flute!" Having something like wings seems to me to be an important part of being a Balrog. Now maybe some of them might have had a big ring through their nose and others may not have...:)

[Iluvatar]

Mike:

It says 'like vast wings,' and then alter it says 'its wings.' To me wings are not things that are like wings; they are wings. Given the assumption of Tolkien's precison with words, if balrogs did not have wings then the sentence would read "and its shadows spread from wall to wall." Anyway, that's my thinking.

Thorie:

As I understand it, the Istari were under a constraint to limit the form of their appearance; they were not permitted to overawe the inhabitants of Middle-earth. Saruman does mention the 'staffs of the five wizards,' and we can: a) assume that he knew what he was talking about, and b) presume that he was speaking literally and not figuratively. Perhaps the Istari decided upon staffs as a unifying symbol of their purpose, but if it were discovered that the two Blue Istari had wands and not staffs, that would be cool with me. As for balrogs, my supposition is that when they subjoined their beings to Morgoth to become the Valaraukar they also lost some of their powers of incarnation (similar to Sauron after the fall of Numenor). As such, they would be constrained to the typical form of balrogs, albeit with variations within the form (I doubt that they were all identical). That being said, I'm firmly in the wings camp, and also believe (but not as strongly) that balrogs were capable of flight.

Iluvatar

[Greymantle]

Let it be known that I agree with Mike on this long-debated and never-ending issue.

As for shape-changing Maiar, by the time LotR rolled around, I don't believe most of the Maiar actually changed shape, though they had the ability too. I think the Balrogs and the Istari retained their shape pretty much all their time on M-E. Sauron was forced into a single shape, I believe...

[El-ahrairah]

Hehe, I seemed to have not ended the debate as I had hoped. No Nobel Prize for me :(

Perhaps my my use of words was wrong, I take the stance of Iluvatar when he/she says

"of course, a shadow appearing to spread like wings becomes less surprising once you realise that the item casting the shadow *has* wings"

The shadows would be larger, hence you would see them first.

Also I am not taking the stance that ALL Balrogs have wings. I am simply stating you cannot say ALL Balrogs DO NOT have wings.

[Gothmog]

Of course I can say that ALL BALROGS DO NOT HAVE WINGS!!! This is MY interpretation of the writings of JRR Tolkien. What I cannot say is that YOUR interpretation is WRONG. Just as you cannot say that MY interpretation is WRONG. There is NO proof either way. However, if you look through the threads there is a link to an article on Balrog wings, if it still works, which you could read and make your choice.

You will find the link on the thread "BALROGS....." by Kraas on the Silmarillion board. It still works.

[Rosie Cotton]

I don't picture balrogs as having wings, but it definately seems possible for Tolkien to have intended for at least some balrogs to have them.

[Iluvatar]

Um, when I read a statement reading "you can't argue this or you can't argue that" I assume that the statement is made simply for rhetorical effect. If I disagree with the sentiment behind the statement I will indeed argue, but I will de so by advancing my case rationally (or at least as close to rational as I can get). I will definitely refrain from yelling.

[Talierin]

This is pretty much my view on Balrog's wings: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html

[Lantarion]

Perhaps, at first, the Balrog drew its shadow to such an enormous form that it seemed that two vast shadow-'wings' were stretching out, but then he actually presented real wings, with the possible intention to fly. He could have flown above the Company, and smoked 'em all from above; but perhaps Gandalf's brave stand made him curious, and he decided to tackle the Grey Wanderer first. And although he had 'unfurled' his wings, he couldn't fly out of the abyss as Gandalf was lobbing curses at him and hitting him with his staff. And the 'tunnels' that are briefly described can't be underwater, because they would have crumbled over the years. So the Balrog could have flown up a few feet to the entrance of the caves, and dashed in; while Gandalf, being an Istar, probably just said some great spell and hovered up after the brute.
It is my opinion that all Balrogs CAN have wings, but some, like Gothmog the Lord of Balrogs, didn't seem to think he needed them on the battlefield. This I have gathered from a few paintings I have seen by various artists, and this comment should not be taken as a personal insult to one's personal feelings.
:)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talierin
This is pretty much my view on Balrog's wings: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html

Great article, Talierin. It made me really question my initial assumption that Balrogs have wings. Because I love the idea and it makes the Balrog scarier, I ignored a lot of the questions that the article brought up. I do have to place my vote on the side of "no wings".

Many people study the Bible the same way. They take one or two passages that support their opinion without looking at numerous others that state otherwise. The only place in Tolkien's works that imply wings is the one at Khazad-dhum. There are many other references that either seemingly contradict it, or do not give it any support. BUT I WANT THEM TO HAVE WINGS!!!!!:mad:

[Gothmog]

Iluvatar,

If you look at my posting you will see that it is not ALL caps. Certain of the words and phrases have capitalised to emphasise the importance of them. This was done in the same way as El-harairah emphasised certain parts of his posting.


Pontifex,

While I respect your opinion about Balrog Wings, where you say "This I have gathered from a few paintings by various artists" you are in fact relying on the interpretation of someone else. the only place where there is information to use in forming an opinion about this subject is in the writings of JRR Tolkien.


Thorin,

If that is the case, Then GIVE them Wings!!!
After all, they are YOUR Balrogs....

:D :D :D

[Telchar]

Originally posted by Thorin


That is not necessarily true, Telchar. Considering Tolkien said that there were probably only 7 Balrogs, they were probably all the same...that's why they were all called Balrogs. Taking the shape of a specific "race" would imply the same parameters of those who take it. Look at the Istari, they all had staffs and the same powers, they probably looked quite the same as well

Comparing the Istari and the Balrogs is, well, probably not the ringht two things to compare.. As for the numbers of Balrogs, there are mentioned atlest 7 Balrogs in the stories, but there where probably many more not mentioned, and I would guess many where slain in the war of wrath.

[Cian]

Thorin is (likely :)) referring to a note revealed in The Annals of Aman specifically regarding Balrog numbers. Cf ~ the phrase 'host of Balrogs' was changed > 'his Balrogs', and:

"'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at the most 7 ever existed.'"JRRT

[Ancalagon]

'Can they fly? That is another question altogether'.

I think you are absolutely spot-on when you ask this question. There is no doubt that they have either a semblance of wings or actual wings. Whether they can actually use them to elevate themselves is the real debate. Why then did the Balrog not glide or fly from the chasm in Moria when he was cast down with Gandalf? Ahhh, the endless options open to scrutiny are what makes Tolkiens work so wonderful.

[Lantarion]

Gothmog:
Yes indeed it is another person's interpretation, and I worded my sentences incorrectly. What I meant was that the artists' interpreatations were identical to my own, and that they only back up my opinion of Balrogs having wings. I had 'realized' from the LotR that they have, IMO, great, black wings, and although I did not base my opinion on the paintings of, eg John Howe, they reinforced in a way my belief.

[El-ahrairah]

Well I can see that the best way for Peter Jackson to handle this issue would be to only show quick glimpses of the Balrog in Moria: "was that a wing?".

For if he makes a choice and shows the creature outright, those of the opinion that differs will probably not pay to see the next two films, waiting for Morpheus to offer them for free. Hehe, to those people, don't be so superficial!

[Cian]

Also, Tolkien penned (an earlier version) of the same scene, Morgoth being saved after his cry ~ to his aid came orcs and Balrogs in that version.

[Eomer Dinmention]

i'm guessing that the balrogs didn't becuase if they had wings then when the balrog took gandalf down why didn't the balrog fly back up
but i'm only guessing

[Greymantle]

Yup. Same thing when Glorfindel battled a Balrog, they were killed by falling of a cliff. TaLLLLLLLLLLLLL posted a link to a good essay on this subject, somewhere....here it is: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/gu...les/080101.html
I was already convinced Balrogs didn't have wings, but this cemented it.

Edit: Take a wild guess.

Fixed Link --<B>--

[Silnarion]

I think that balrogs had wings, but obviously not wings like we know the avian species of our world to have. Tolkien implies that these wings were quasi real, a mixture of shadow and magic...almost fluid, like an umbrous barometer of the balrog's innate power. As to whether or not they enabled flight I wouldnt doubt it, or at least some sort of gliding capability for controlled descent.
Someone in the above thread was wondering if all balrogs looked alike. I dont think they did, but one (poor bastard) should have been able to identify a balrog for what it was, if it was encountered. I would think that there would have been some variety in balrog girth and height, a variety in the amount or color of its personal emolation. The shape and size of its surrounding shadowy essence or wings might have differed depending on its power level. I think that Gothmog would have looked different from the LOTR balrog if compared side to side. I think would have been obvious which balrog was the dominant spirit. You would be comparing a Captain to lower ranking entity.
I cant find my Silmarillion, but I would like to revisit all the descriptions and story line concerning the Balrogs of the First Age. Im sure there are hints and phrases that could help this thread.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Thorondor

I am also suprised that no one has brought up the point Why didn't the Balrog fly out of the Abyss with its wings? Shadows can't fly, and wings can.


Well they may have had wings and still not be able to fly, but fly/hop short distances kind of like big fat chickens? :D The great thing about books is that they leave something for your own imagination --to fill in the gaps. Therefore in my Tolkien world, Balrogs do have wings (I just like it better that way :) )

[Silnarion]

Excellent article. I like then to think that the "wings" were merely part of a balrog's overall shifting specter of unlight and quasi-shadow.

[Talierin]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I think they were too.

[Gandalf White]

I'm not exactly sure how to say this. I believe the Balrog may have had "useless" wings. I imagine him with wings like a bat, but incapable of flight. Just a thought.

[Obelaine]

I was talking with my dad and he asked me how could balrogs have real wings if him and gandalf fell? If it had "real" wings it wouldnt have fallen. At least thats what i think.:rolleyes:

[Telchar]

But then again, a person that belives that the Balrogs did have wings, not that i do, would then say that there might not have been enough room for him to unfold his wings..

[Lantarion]

Or the poor beast might have been in some considerable pain, what with Gandalf hacking at him and all..

[The Dark Walker]

To be honest i always thouhgt Balrogs had wings, but if he did why didn't he just fly over Gandalfs head on the bridge?

[Lantarion]

Welcome, Dark Walker! Hmph, you're new to the forum so I won't bother you too much about it; but it has been stated many times that possible reasons for the Balrog's incapability to fly out of the abyss were a) Gandalf was thwacking him round the head with Glamdring, or b) There was not enough space to unfurl his extensive wingspan. Sorry, not a very encouraging welcome :rolleyes: . But seriously, welcome.
On the other hand, if his wings were only of flame and shadow, they would have been extinguished when he fell; and perhaps Gandalf had a few tricks up his beard. ;)

[Greymantle]

But of course, this is not the opinion of all the persons of this forum... I am sturdily in the Wingless camp, myself. Though, of course, we are a minority.

[The Dark Walker]

O.k, new question if the Balrog had such a large wingspan then he must have been a huge titan that could stomped ol' Gandalf over the head instead of taffin' about!!!!!!!!!

[Greymantle]

I would have thought that given the fact that this is Tolkien we're talking about, isn't the triumph of the "little guy" a really important theme?

[The Dark Walker]

Yeah but having the Balrog kill Gandalf only to be wiped out by the Fellowship's fury would be much more heroic

[Lantarion]

Heroism is a synonym for stupidity, if you ask me. :D Yes, it would have been more heroic, but the rest of the Company would have been killed as well!
And I agree that the 'little one' usually prevails in Tolkien's stories. On the other hand, it cannot be told if Gandalf was stronger than the Balrog before he was reincarnated..
And DW, a creature doesn't have to be enormous to have a large wingspan. It depends on how big the distance between the tips of the wings, and on the width of the Abyss, but I would say that the Balrog was quite big indeed. But if Gandalf unleashes his fury and utmost might and anger onto any creature, they don't have much of a choise but to scamper out of the way, as the Balrog wisely did (didn't help a lot, he was still grilled, but anyway..). :)

[BelDain]

I was just reading the Lord of the Rings appendices and noticed an interesting passage that tells of the Balrog Durin's folk encountered; presumably the same one that Gandalf later battles. It says the Balrog flew from Angband.

So perhaps the Balrogs do have huge wings and can fly well and fast but it was the relatively small size of the chasm that did not allow this Balrog to swoop up and out and save itself.

[Earnil]

I am totally 100% on the side of Balrog's having Wings.
I would go into this argument with more detail but I won't I have already become bored with discussing the Topic of Balrog's having Wings over at Tolkien Online.

All I am going to say about this debate is, even though Tolkien described balrogs as having wings, I think it is all up to the readers. It is all in the eye (or mind) of the beholder. I'm basically saying that everyone chooses to interpret LOTR and certain parts of it differently. And thus we each have our own opinion which diffifers from each other person's interpretation.

[Cian]

Originally posted by BelDain
I was just reading the Lord of the Rings appendices and noticed an interesting passage that tells of the Balrog Durin's folk encountered; presumably the same one that Gandalf later battles. It says the Balrog flew from Angband.

The quote reads:

"Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the comming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth." Appendix A III Durin's Folk

And also from Appendix A III Durin's Folk:

"For he saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and the Dwarves went this way and that slaying as they would, and those that would escape from them were flying south, shrieking as they ran."

Certainly "fleeing" can easily fit into the context of both quotes. And the Balrog has something to flee from in any case, I think.

And yes, Tolkien used the word "wings" in a description of the Balrog, not exactly the same as describing the Balrog with physical bat-wings though.

[JeffF.]

The description of the Balrog in Moria said two shadows 'like wings' and the placement of that a few lines before the sentence saying 'wings extended' makes it apply to that second description as well.

As final proof the Balrog would not fall into the chasm by Gandalph's destruction of the narrow bridge if he had wings. He'd simply have flown across the chasm.

[BelDain]

Originally posted by JeffF.
The description of the Balrog in Moria said two shadows 'like wings' and the placement of that a few lines before the sentence saying 'wings extended' makes it apply to that second description as well.

As final proof the Balrog would not fall into the chasm by Gandalph's destruction of the narrow bridge if he had wings. He'd simply have flown across the chasm.

Yes, Thangorodrim not Angband. Thanks Cian.

Anyway. There are only two ways the Balrogs could fly. Wings or some sort of magical or innate power of levitation. If the former were the case as many are argueing here then it would make sense that the cave and the chasm obstructed the optimal functionality of the wings to either carry the Balrog over the chasm or lift it out of the chasm once it had fallen.

If the Balrog could fly through some sort of levitation power then the Balrog falling really would make no sense at all because the physical attributes of wings would play no part. It could simply "float" up out of the chasm. This reasoning makes me think that if the Balrog was indeed flying, as in up in the air, it had to have physical wings.

Of course there are two other a little bit wilder possibilities.
1) The Balrog did have levitation powers that granted it "flight" but the power is somehow impeded by being inside the mountain.
2) Sometimes if someone is driving fast we might say they are flying down the road. So perhaps Tolkien meant the Balrog flying as to say it was moving at great speed from Thangorodrim.

Or wait. Perhaps one of the Balrog's powers is to create physical wings for itself out of its own substance of shadow and flame such that once it extended it's wings of shadow they did indeed become manifested wings.

[Lantarion]

But the Balrog would look VERY silly without wings, IMHO! Just look at Ted Nasmith's painting of the Balrog! I think he's not good at painting people or creatures, but he's possibly the best painter of landscapes.
Of course, that is Mr. Nasmith's interpretation. But I think the Balrog is a lot more intimidating with wings. And I think that whatever they were, even if they were just shadows and fire 'like wings', they suffice for a scary profile of a huge, fire-shadow-bat. :D

[The Phony Pope]

Here is an EXACT quote directly from the book, proving that the Balrog most likely DID NOT have wings

"The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings..."

Before when they describe the Balrog in more detail they do not mention wings. Only does it mention them when it met with Gandalf at the bridge, and its shadows reached out LIKE two vast wings, the key word here begin 'like'.

[Gothmog]

Just a thought, I recall reading some years ago, an article about putting wings on a man. In this article it talked about the muscles needed to power the wings in a flying creature. Now these would have to be very powerful to be able to move the wings so as to achive flight. Well according to the workings out of the author it seems that the pectoral muscles would have to be of such size that the chest of our man would have been about 6 feet infront of his nose.

Another point. All of the animals, birds and other creatures including the forms taken by the Valar and the Maiar seem as far as I can remember to be possessed of four limbs. So why would there be only one small group that goes against this view and have Six limbs?

[The Phony Pope]

Here is the address of a document writing about wether Balrogs had wings or not (or more precisely, if they could fly or not, but it doesn't really matter).

http://tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/fly.html

[Evenstar]

I have always pictured Balrogs without wings; just surrounded by a mist of darkness. IMO a creature strong enough to challenge Gandalf would look silly with useless "ostrich" wings. Now I understand and appreciate the explanations as to why the Balrog had useful wiongs and could not fly out of the pit- I personally just don't buy them. I just imagine the Balrog as an equal to Gandlaf and I would rather it have a similar shape.

However, I believe that this is a matter of interpretation so to each his own.

[pippin le qer]

is n't there a line in the Silmarillion abouth Balrogs flying around the tines of Gondolin in the siege and fall of that elvencity?. flying requires wings unless you can get an airoplane. Tolkien didn't use airoplanes in his books, so Balrogs had wings question answered

[The Phony Pope]

I just read that part in the Silmarillion and I saw no evidence tat Balrogs could fly at all

[pippin le qer]

then's my memory a little bit rusty I've read it abouth 10 years ago

[Nazgul_Lord]

Once and for all, Blarogs have wings, it says it in the fellowship of the ring, and in the silmarillion, and it shows it in the movie. But they can not fly.

[JeffF.]

...the passages in the Fellowship of the Ring are debatable as you can read in this long thread. The Silmarillion and the various volumes of History of Middle Earth NEVER describe Balrogs as having wings.

it is left to each reader to decide for him or herself as it should be. it's like that along debat of Uruks/Uruk-Hai. netiher side can be swayed by the other. The beauty of LOTR is that we don't need to be if we don't want to. It's fiction so the book and story means something different to each and every one of us.

The benefit of all these discussions is not who wins in the end or even who has the most votes for any particular view. The beauty and benefit is in the ver discussion we have with other folks who have a passion for the same topic.

respects to all fellow Middle Earth admirers,

JeffF.

[TulKas Astaldo]

1) Gothmog didn't have wings. This is a widely accepted fact... But Gothmog was the only son of Morgoth, not a true Balrog.

2) The Balrog, if it had wings, could have at least used them to slow itself when it fell from Khazad-Dum. Again with the Balrog Glorfindel slew, and again with the Balrogs running down 'faster than a river of fire' in The Silmarillion... I don't picture a river as flying, nor do I something that runs.

3) Tolkien himself stated in one of his letters that balrogs do not have true wings. I think this one pretty much sums it all up, but I don't have an exact letter number...

[Lantarion]

The way some of you people describe the Balrog reminds me of a burning, seven-foot, thick-skinned monster with horns, and who has a fiery whip and sword in his hands. Just take a look at the picture of the Balrog in the 2002 Tolkien Calendar: ridiculous! The Balrogs were Maiar, demi-gods with substantial magical powers. I think the movie-depiction of the Valarauka (which is its Quenya name) is very accurate indeed, at least to my mind.

[Nocturno]

Sorry if the word is not spelled right (I speak spanish).
But I have read enough about birds and their way of flying as principles of aerodinamics.
The general rule is to have a wing shaped so that the air below runs much faster than above.
Most of the birds and bats actually glide on the air and only flap their wings to start flight or change their course or altitude.
The smallest of birds and the insects flap their wings all the time to fly.
That doesn't happen with the great birds.
A vulture would glide almost of the time and has a really hard time to get off the air when departing from the ground.
What is this all about?
A balrog (given his size) would glide, not flap his wings, or he would need to be extremely light or have a very different muscle system (after all it is described as man-like).
So it's no wonder if he couldn't fly inside a cave!
He would need a lot of room, a hot air current from below, and the chance to spread his wings (after all Gandalf was battling with it) to deterr his fall.
The fall doesn't prove he didn't have wings.
And afterwards, when cast off the mountain, you could bet he was badly hurt.
I am for wings! They explain much more than they confuse, from the Silmarillion to the LOTR.

[Gothmog]

How can they explain anything in the Silmarillion?

[Taranir]

In Silmarillion there were no writing about Balrogs with wings. Professor would have includet those wings in his description of B:s, if there were wings. Nor were they flying at any point.

[dgoof911]

Personally, I do not think they had wings. Looking at what Readwryt said earlier, "The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm." , makes me agree that Tolkien is desribing the shadow, which appears to take the form of wings. So maybe it has shadow wings but, shadow does not take the form of solid, which you would obivously need to be able fly.

Also, I don't think you can use the movie as an example for the Balrog having wings. It is the "movie" not the book, and how every thing looks is not accurate to what Tolkien described in th book. The Balrog is just someones idea of what it would look like.

[greypilgrim]

i think he had wings......what else would cause such a shadow?
and his wings were spread from wall to wall. i can only come to one conclusion, his wings made the shadow, and then he drew himself up to his full height, and spread his wings. thats my tale, others may be devised.

[Cian]

Originally posted by greypilgrim
i think he had wings......what else would cause such a shadow?

A shadow :)

"... their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named ..." JRRT LQS

[greypilgrim]

i'm sorry, but a shadow cannot cast another shadow, in middle earth or anywhere. the balrog's wings cast the shadow.

[Lantarion]

Taranir: I had posted that post on a different thread, where I believe you were inquiring about the Balrog's wings. I did not ask for it to be moved, but I find that the Moderators seem to enjoy flipping posts idly around the place. There was no reason, Mr. Moderator, to move my post from its original position, most of all because it makes no sense for it to be moved to *this* thread, as I inserted a link to this thread!! Please, the next time you want to move one of my posts, I would be much obliged if you asked for my consent first. *whew* :)

But greypilgrim, the book does not say anything cast a shadow, but that the Balrog's shadow stretched out like two vast wings. The Balrog is made of some strange, ethereal flame and deep shadow, and he was fluffing it about probably to intimidate Gandalf on the rickety little bridge.

[greypilgrim]

there seems to be alot of debate on this subject. i think this will be my last comment on it:


one balrog, hot, with wings on the side.

[Cian]

Originally posted by greypilgrim
i'm sorry, but a shadow cannot cast another shadow, in middle earth or anywhere. the balrog's wings cast the shadow.

Who said cast shadow though? The Balrog was cloaked in darkness, it's shadow reached out like wings :) or fluffed out? :D

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Pontifex
Taranir: I had posted that post on a different thread, where I believe you were inquiring about the Balrog's wings. I did not ask for it to be moved, but I find that the Moderators seem to enjoy flipping posts idly around the place. There was no reason, Mr. Moderator, to move my post from its original position, most of all because it makes no sense for it to be moved to *this* thread, as I inserted a link to this thread!! Please, the next time you want to move one of my posts, I would be much obliged if you asked for my consent first. *whew* :)


Just a side note Ponti...I think you posted that on another thread for Balrog Wings, and the two got merged...

[Beleg Strongbow]

If they did have wings could he use them? I think not cause he would have not been able 2 practise in the deep places eg. moria,utumno, angband....

[Mina Pitcher]

:confused:
Try reading "The bridge of Kazad-dum! It clearly states:And its wings were spread from wall to wall. So there!:p

[Cian]

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness." JRRT RotK

[Mormegil]

Balrogs didn't have wings.

Reasons why.....
1) "In the front of that fire came Glaurung the Golden, father of Dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs."
(The Silmarillion, Of The Ruin Of Beleriand)

Glaurung was not a flying Dragon, so if the Balrogs were in his train that means that they were walking.
Why walk if you have wings??

2) "the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
(The Silmarillion, Of Tuor And The Fall Of Gondolin)

If Balrogs had wings, why didn't the Balrog just fly and leave Glorfindel to fall into the abyss alone??

3) "And the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"
(The Fellowship of The Ring, The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum)

Balrogs were cloaked in darkness. This particular Balrog's shadow stretched out LIKE wings.

The next quote,
"and it's wings were spread from wall to wall"
(The Fellowship Of The Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum)
Refers to the aforementioned 'wings' of shadow.

4) "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell foreward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished"
(The Fellowship Of The Ring, The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum)

Again, if Balrogs had wings, why did this Balrog fall, why didn't it use it's wings to fly back to a safe ledge or something??

5) Overall, the only thing that suggests that Balrogs had wings is the "its wings were spread from wall to wall" quote. but this can be ruled out by the referance, about twelve lines before, to the Balrog's wings of shadow.
There is far more evidence that Balrogs do not have wings.

So, in conclusion, Balrogs do not have wings.

[Ithrynluin]

This is a very troublesome topic. I personally think they did have wings. Tolkien is very ambiguous in many of his texts,though I think he said in one of his letters that balrogs were wingless.
I guess it's up to you to decide.
I'll be back with a quote.

[Cian]

Tolkien eventually wrote that his Balrogs were "cloaked in darkness". And I note:

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness." JRRT RotK

Hmmm, a long shadow is here described as "reaching wings" of darkness ... and in FotR the shadow about the Balrog "reached" out like (vast!) wings ...

... nope, haven't made my mind up yet ;););)

[Lantarion]

Oh noo, not this again. It's not that the question isn't good, on the contrary, but it has always been a subject of great disagreement.
Anyway, I think that all Balrogs had wings in the form of sinews created by shadows and darkness. So not really wings in the sense of flying devices, but in a very effective scarer-offer of troublesome little things like Istari and Elves and such. :)
But they're still wings, IMHO.

[Ingo]

ok...mabye someone said the but if the bolrog did have wings couldnt it had flown up instead of falling down the casm and it wouldnt of had to use the long stair case to climb back up

[Theoden]

I don't think they do because the one fell at Kaza Dum... if he had wings, would he not have flown?

-me

[Lantarion]

Ingo and Theoden, would you please at least attempt to read the previous posts? You would find that your question is already 'answered', in the form of another person's opinion. I would quote the answer but I won't. :p
Instead I'll tell you: the Balrog had just been caught by surprise, and didn't really have time to react; he could have flown out before he hit the water at the bottom, but Gandalf was flogging the poor beast with his sword the whole time. And it can't be very easy to take off and fly out of water, so that answers why he ran up the passages and stairs.
This is all supposing that the Balrog actually has working, muscular wings, so don't shoot me down just yet. :)
It is just MHO, however, that the Balrog's wings were composed solely of ethereal and fiery essense, instead of muscles, tendons and bone.

[Elu Thingol]

Ok I have just looked at this thread, so if my arguments already been brought up please tell me. Many have been saying that there is no evidence whatsoever in the Sil that Balrogs had wings. However I found this quote:

and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

I take 'passing over' to mean that they may have been flying. He could have said 'passing through'.

PS: I will be gone a couple of weeks so will not be able to respond

[Cian]

There are plenty of examples of "over" that do not mean "flying over" however -- the riders pursuing the Balchoth "over the fields of Calenardhon" for one, where Tolkien could have written "through" here as well. Even another with Hithlum involved.

" ... and ere the winter was come he sent great strength over Hithlum and Nivrost, ..."

That's a descrip of an assault by Morgoth's forces from The Grey Annals

I do not think that Tolkien was 'revealing' something about Balrogs and flight here with this usage, ie usage that can easily be applied with non-flying things.

[CyberGhostface]

I think they have wings.

[HelplessModAddi]

In my opinion, Balrogs have long, thin membranes of shadow that they can either wrap up around themselves, making them appear larger and/or scarier, or extend from themeselves, creating an appearance of wings.

Take it one way, its a mysterious blot of darkness.

Take it another way, its a pair of wings.

Take it another way, its a veil of shadow, concealing what is behind.

In the movie, the Balrog seemed to be an enourmous fiery minotaur creature. However, I do not remember wings. I personally never knew what to believe, but I just didn't picture Balrogs with wings.

[Elfarmari]

Originally posted by Pontifex
It is just MHO, however, that the Balrog's wings were composed solely of ethereal and fiery essense, instead of muscles, tendons and bone.

I agree totally. IMHO, it would be odd to have balrogs fall to their death so often if they had working wings. I think this is just one of those things where Tolkien was not very explicit, and therefore we can think whatever we want!

[Chymaera]

Some Balrogs had wings and flew
Some Balrogs and wings and did not fly
And some Balrogs never had wings

NOW we can end this thread:p :D

why all the fuss?

[Beorn]

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: gray and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

I'm surprised no one has pointed this out...It says first that it was like a great shadow....Then, it says the shadow was like wings, not that the wings were like a shadow...Just as a bird can use its wings to cover something...The shadow was like that bird's wings, and was covering the man-shape...

So, there is nothing saying that the wings didn't exist, only saying that they did....

[Beorn]

Wouldn't that be Malbeth? What is being said is that anything can take on the shape of wings.

What I was saying is that the wings were not shadows, the shadows had taken shape of wings....

That quote actually does support my idea. My idea is simply that the word wings can be anything, and that winglike shadows are not shadowlike wings.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Beorn
What I was saying is that the wings were not shadows, the shadows had taken shape of wings....

Shadows taking shape of wings would be shadows to my mind (but still can be called "wings" in any event). You've lost me here :)

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Cian
You've lost me here :)

As you have me...

[Cian]

Perhaps this will help. What do you think the "wings" were made of?

My opinion is that Balrogs were cloaked in darkness (see Morgoth's Ring), and during the Moria confrontation this darkness/shadow reached out _like wings_ ~ the shadow of a bird can have "wings" too, though the winged shadow of a bird is a cast shadow, while the Balrog has an 'unlight' about it that momentarilly reached out (ie not flesh-type permanent wings like a bat or bird or similar).

[Lantarion]

Last posted by Pontifex
It is just MHO, however, that the Balrog's wings were composed solely of ethereal and fiery essense, instead of muscles, tendons and bone.

As an answer to your question, Cian.

[Tar-Elenion]

But what were Numenorean wings made of?

[Cian]

LoL Tar-E. I'll let folks judge that question for themselves:

"... for the Sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs, and bind them to tall poles like trees of the forest." JRRT

Then later on in the paragraph:

" ... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings." JRRT

And later on therein, even:

"The foul wings of the Sea-men have not been seen in these waters for many a year; ..." JRRT

Quotes from Tal-Elmar

My only question is why sail when one can fly? Well, they did love the sea I guess ;););)

Ah the setup :D

[Lantarion]

Haha, a flying ship! With black wings!! :D :D LOL

[Flame of Anor]

I found a site that goes into a lengthy discussion on whether or not balrogs had wings or not. The site is The Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda The section with the info on the balrogs is located here:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html

[Muffinly]

I just had to ask.

[Ponte]

Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230&highlight=balrog) is a thread that is about if balogrs had wings or not.

And i choosed that they had wings.

[Muffinly]

Ok. I didn't see it


but now I voted no

[e.Blackstar]

yes balrogs have wings

then why doesnt it fly out of the chasm?personally,i think that its wings are just to weak to support it

do tell
what is your thery:confused:

[Minas]

The book says wings, so I say wings. There are plenty of flightless birds around with wings that can flap.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Minas: The book says wings, so I say wings. There are plenty of flightless birds around with wings that can flap.

The book (author of the) uses the word 'wings' very many times, and of course, does not always mean physical bird-wings (or similar).

Shadow-shapes that look or act like wings are indeed wings, and 'wings' need be nothing more (but they will yet be shadow, and not necessarilly permanent).

[Ynhockey]

I don't think balrogs had wings and the evidence also points to that. I think his shadow had wings, though, because his shadow was like a spirit of its own... but then again, he was a Maia so he could have wings at one time and then not have them anymore.

[*Anarie*]

Balrogs do have wings, it is clearly mentioned in LotR book.
You'll probably ask me ''then why didn't it fly out in Moria?". So what, ostriches and penguins also have wings, but you don't really expect them to fly, do you? :)

[Ynhockey]

But that's not the point against wings. If he had wings materially, he couldnt've fit through the door to the bridge hall or Khazad-Dum, so he was obviously only about the size of a man, as stated in one of the other Tolkien works (i forget which). So, don't be so sure...

[Cian]

Originally posted by *Anarie*
Balrogs do have wings, it is clearly mentioned in LotR book.

Well the word 'wings' is clearly used in a description, but I don't think that's the same thing as the Balrog unquestionably having bat wings (or something :)).

The word wings does not have to mean permanent physical appendages (like those of a bat or bird or similar) when it appears in a description, and indeed does not in various Tolkien examples.

[welcome by the way]

[FREEDOM!]

I thought if they had wings that he would have flown (or hovered) instead of falling in a pit.

[Spartan117]

I agree with "STrider(aragorn". If I had wings, i would have saved myself the swimming lesson. (He fell into a big water pit thingy).

[Beorn]

I thought if they had wings that he would have flown (or hovered) instead of falling in a pit.I agree with "STrider(aragorn". If I had wings, i would have saved myself the swimming lesson. (He fell into a big water pit thingy).

Read the following:

Originally posted by Lantarion
I always picture the Balrog w/ wings. Why couldn't he both have wings AND strech out a shadowy muck? And the reason why he didn't fly out of the abyss in Moria is (in my opinion) because Gandalf, a very powerful Maia and wizard, was kicking his ass (pardon my French), and the poor, ickle Balroggy-woggy was probably in the throws of fairly sizeable clutches of pain, and couldn't function properly. When he cooled off (ie, almost drowned in the freezing water under the Bridge), he most likely ran off into the fabled tunnels under Khazad-Dum, and eventually scampered into the Tower, where he fell.

Originally posted by Lantarion
Or the poor beast might have been in some considerable pain, what with Gandalf hacking at him and all..

[Gothmog]

I was not going to post any more on this thread but to answer some points about Gandalf 'Hacking away at this poor vertualy defensless Balrog' The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.
There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
'You cannot pass! ' he said.
With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled
and hissed.
'He cannot stand alone! ' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf! '
`Gondor! ' cried Boromir and leaped after him.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools! ' he cried, and was gone.
So the Balrog struck once with his sword which Gandalf defended against destroying the Balrog's sword. Next Gandalf struck the Bridge with his staff which broke the bridge and his staff. At this point the Balrog starts to fall. He is not being 'Hacked at' by Gandalf who is too far away at this point to do any such thing. The Balrog then swings his Whip to catch Gandlaf and pull him down after himself. So the only reason that the Balrog cannot fly out of the chasm is that he has no wings capable of allowing him to do so. This means that:-
1. He has no wings.
2. His wings are Too Small for him to fly.
3. His wings are Too Big to use in such a confined space.

No 1 seems to be a reasonable view.
No 2 seems to make the Balorg look like a clown.
No 3 seems to be a reasonable view.

Myself I do not believe that the Balrog had wings. I feel that what is in the book is a description of a shadow caused by an Un-Light similar to that of Ungoliant. Others take a different view.

[Lantarion]

That's what I think too! And that's what surprised me in the FotR-movie: if the Balrog is a spirit of flame and shadow, why would the ground tremble when he walks? Strange, wouldn't you say?
I think the Balrog could control the shadowy essense in him to create a more menacing form (eg. huge, dark wings), but I don't see why any part of him would be flesh and bone, if he is a 'spirit of flame and shadow'.

[Éomond]

It had wings, but, I don't know why it didn't fly. Maybe because:

1.When Gandalf said it couldn't pass, so the belrog could fly or anything.
2.It can only fly in the Shadow World

Those are my guesses.:confused: :confused:

[Elfstone]

If the Balrog had physical wings,why didn't it just use them when he fell into the pit???????????? I mean was he that stupid?

[Beorn]

Please read this entire thread for the answer to that question, or my post on this thread (4 or 5 posts before this). The former would be preferred.

[Éomond]

I'm going on that!

Belrogs can only fly in the Shadow World.

And in the movie you'll see the Belrog has wings, but only the "bones."

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Isildur
I'm going on that!

Belrogs can only fly in the Shadow World.

And in the movie you'll see the Belrog has wings, but only the "bones."

What does what's in the movie matter? In that case, since in the movie Glorfindel doesn't exist, he doesn't exist in the book...

[Muffinly]

Yes, and there is no Tom Bombadil.

[Diamond Took]

oh my gosh muffinly do you like muffins because they are my favourite food in the whole wide world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D


*ahem*

Yes I always thought that Balrogs had wings.
In the book i didn't really picture the balrog at all, but in the movie he had wings, so, i just guess that he has wings.
He looks kinda cute with the wings though. :):rolleyes:
but the horns on the face? No i'm afraid. just NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Sivien]

Personally, I think they don't. If the Balrog of Moria did have wings, couldn't it just have flown out of the gap beneath the Bridge? It didn't so it couldn't have had any wings.
Besides, Tolkien said "like wings", not "wings". Anyway, it does not mention Balrogs having wings anywhere in the Silmarillion.
Thank you for reading my rant
Sivien;)

[In Flames]

This is one hard nut to crack.:rolleyes:

I find it impossible to say if Balrogs have wings, just look at these two quotes.

"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
If i only read that part i'd say they did not have wings.


"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
If i only read that part i would say that they had wings.

But...we will never know!:)

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by In Flames
This is one hard nut to crack.:rolleyes:
But...we will never know!:)

Wrong. We WILL know.

Some WILL know that they Have wings :rolleyes:
Some WILL know that they Do Not Have wings :cool:

Guess which I Know :p

[In Flames]

Ah come one tell us then Gothmog, after all you are a Balrog..
Just look over you shoulder and tell us if you see any wings back there.:p

[Gothmog]

Nope!! Just a Great BIG un-light that I spread out like huge wings of Darkness.;) :D

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Nope!! Just a Great BIG un-light that I spread out like huge wings of Darkness.;) :D

Oh,come now! I saw you once Gothmog and you were in the air - flying & stuff! So Balrogs DO have wings!!!! :D

[Gothmog]

That wasn't 'Flying' That was 'Falling'!!

Ancalagon wouldn't carry me any further.:( :p :D

[Theoden]

Originally posted by Gothmog


Wrong. We WILL know.

Some WILL know that they Have wings :rolleyes:
Some WILL know that they Do Not Have wings :cool:

Guess which I Know :p

hehehehehe

-me

[CloakedShadow]

Yes. It had wings. Period.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by CloakedShadow
Yes. It had wings. Period. Please Prove the above statement.

[Popqueen62]

I don't thing Balrogs had wings, and if it says something about it, it was probably an analogy.

[balrog]

mmmm, i can't tell if i have wings through all this shadow and flame:D

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by balrog
mmmm, i can't tell if i have wings through all this shadow and flame:D
:D ROTFL!! :D Beautiful, beautiful..
Welcome to the forum, Balrog!

[saulone]

Ahhh...the Balrogs/Wings argument ;)

I will have to say that I ride the fence on this. I think there are substantial arguments on both sides - the passage where the Dwarves awoke the Balrog of Moria in Appendix A, Section III

"Thus (the dwarves) roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."

....so I am geussing he flies.

To flip the coin however, in the "Wings of Darkness" comment also in the book - I actually see this as more of a comparison and not to be taken literally.

"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"

The fact that Balrogs tend to have references to flight attached to them in both the Sil and LOTR - be it literal or not should also be addressed.

Personally I think Balrogs do have wings - however, they are not terribly functional in my mind. I think they are more for show, or for short leaps of flight - like a turkey or chicken (don't laugh :D).

Here's my vision of a Balrog...
http://thereandbackagain.xigroup.com/wallpaper/balrog1.jpg

[Maedhros]

At last the discussion of Balrogs: Winged or not.
Personally I think Balrogs do have wings - however, they are not terribly functional in my mind.
Interesting to come to the conclusion that balrogs had wings with so little evidence. I would even say too simple, yet in saying that if they had wings that didn't function as intented (flying) is interesting.
Let's analyze this a little:
1. Balrogs had wings, (which there is no evidence in LOTR that they had any), and to go to the postion that the ones that they had don't function is intelligent and in a way convenient. Why, because you don't have to prove anything. In Lotr, which is canon
From Chapter 5: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '
Look at the way Gandalf talked to the Fellowship in there:
'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. `Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!
Was Gandalf telling the fellowship to take out their wings and literaly fly (in the air) or to move out of there fast.:confused: . Wait, there is the possiblity that they had wings, but they didn't function.;)
Later in the chapter:
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
I wonder why people don't quote this part entirely and only the part of the wings.:confused:
These quotes describe the balrog as a being of "shadow" and its "shadow" reached out like two vast wings, not that it had 2 wings.
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
It says that the darkness grew and so its "wings". These are of course not real wings.
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools! ' he cried, and was gone.
It says that the shadow vanished, and while it did, there is no mention of its "wings of darkness". If he had any wings, why aren't they mentioned here?
And again, Gandalf tells the company to get out of there by using the word fly, which i don't think means to intend for them to go "flying" in the air.
From LOTR: The White Rider
'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
At this time, did he had "useless wings of slime" then?:confused:
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.
Any mention of wings anywhere? Even useless wings?:confused:
Let's look at other mentions of the word fly in LOTR
From LOTR: Helm's Deep
'Would that day was here and we might ride down upon them like a storm out of the mountains!' said Aragorn. 'It grieves me to fly before them.'
'We need not fly much further,' said Éomer. 'Not far ahead now lies Helm's Dike, an ancient trench and rampart scored across the coomb, two furlongs below Helm's Gate. There we can turn and give battle.'
If I remember correctly, Aragorn couldn't fly, could he?
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
Far beneath the rained halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.
Wings anywhere? Or even mention the word fly?
But to be fair, we have in Morgoth's Ring
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quenta Silmarillion:
Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.
We have here the mention of the phrase "winged speed" that means either that they moved very fast or that they had wings could fly, or simply that the wings that they had made them move more "rapidly".:confused:
There is another phrase with the word "winged":
Therefore Ulmo taught them the craft of ship-building; and Ossë, submitting to Ulmo, brought them as his farewell gift the strong-winged swans.
Swans definitely had wings, so does that means that the balrogs had wings too?
I would conclude that based on the canonical evidence in the LOTR, you cannot say that Balrogs had wings or useless wings, because there is no proof.
If you decide to use the Later Quenta as the source of information, you have to remember that it's not canon, because it was not published by JRRT. You could say that they either had: wings or useless wings.

In conclusion, if you were to say that the Balrogs had wings or useless wings, the proof you have is in the Later Quenta, not in LOTR nor the Published Silmarillion.

[Lantarion]

Very detailed and interesting post, Maedhros. Thanks.
Although you would make a more powerful point without so much sarcasm, witty or not.
Personally I agree with what Tolkien says about the Shadow around the Balrog enveloping it like wings.. But how can the Appendix-quote be explained? :confused:
Also it seems slightly futile to draw any actual proof on the matter from the hoME, because as I understand everthing there is preliminary, unfinished and/or 'incorrect' to Tolkien himself, at least in Morgoth's Ring.

[Maedhros]

Very detailed and interesting post, Maedhros. Thanks.
Thank you.
Although you would make a more powerful point without so much sarcasm, witty or not.
If only you knew.;)
But how can the Appendix-quote be explained?
Do you mean this phrase:
It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.
Flying as utilized in this phrase, with other examples that I had taken from LOTR does not imply that the Varaulakula "flew", flying is here a synonym of the word "move", although I would say move with great speed.
Also it seems slightly futile to draw any actual proof on the matter from the hoME, because as I understand everthing there is preliminary, unfinished and/or 'incorrect' to Tolkien himself, at least in Morgoth's Ring.
Some of the Material is unfinished, but to say incorrect is another thing altogether, specially in Morgoth's Ring. Actually the Later Quenta is the last Version of the Quenta Silmarillion that JRRT wrote,(the manuscript LQ 4) , although he made some little alterations in the Shibboleth of Fëanor.

[Beorn]

Maed...to nearly all of your quotes, I can say, "And I suppose since it never mentions the fellowship having hands, we can assume they don't have any"

Consider this:
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

Now, keep that in mind and read this:
His hair was like a bird's nest, it was so tangled.

So, the first quote refers to the shadows being like wings, not the wings being like shadows. The second means than the guy's hair was like a bird's nest, not a bird's nest was like hair.

That *moves fingers to say 'quote'* "evidence" being anulled, we continue:

...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...

So, without the previous *moves fingers to say 'quote'* "evidence" to support no wings, we are only left with concrete, undisputable evidence saying it did something with its wings.

...It was a horse, it was a mule, it was a Horse, it was a Mule, it was a HORSE!, it was MULE!...

[Maedhros]

"And I suppose since it never mentions the fellowship having hands, we can assume they don't have any"
"It said so, yes; but it's tricksy. It doesn't say what it means. It won't say what it's got in its pocketses. It knows. It knows a way in, it must know a way out, yes.
I would say that if I can prove that the members of the Fellowship had hands, then:
From LOTR: A Long Expected Party
Frodo saw him to the door. He gave a final wave of his hand, and walked off at a surprising pace; but Frodo thought the old wizard looked unusually bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight. The evening was closing in, and his cloaked figure quickly vanished into the twilight. Frodo did not see him again for a long time.
Frodo had a hand. Pinch me I must be dreaming. Who would have thought that. Damn, it means that they did have hands.;)
Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind. But as for breaking the Ring, force is useless. Even if you took it and struck it with a heavy sledge-hammer, it would make no dint in it. It cannot be unmade by your hands, or by mine.
Can't believe it, Gandalf has hands too. Wow.:)
"evidence" to support no wings, we are only left with concrete, undisputable evidence saying it did something with its wings.
Yes, we have "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings". No real wings at all.:(
Unfortunately, there is no specific mention in LOTR that it states that Balrogs had actual wings.

[Beorn]

*groans*

Unfortunately, there is no specific mention in LOTR that it states that Balrogs had actual wings.

It doesn't actually say, "Gandalf had Hands." and somewhere "Frodo had hands." However, it does say they used their hands, implying they had did have hands.

...its wings were spread from wall to wall...
The above quote says that the wings had been spread from wall to wall, implying it had did have wings.

[Maedhros]

The above quote says that the wings had been spread from wall to wall, implying it had did have wings.
Nope.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
It was the shadow that reached like two vast wings, not that he had wings per se.

[Lantarion]

Yes yes, you are correct: but there is the other quote which contradicts this hypothesis ("His wings reaches from wall to wall"..), owing to which we are having this debate at all! :p
So how do you explain this other quote, ie. "His wings..." ?

And as for the Appendix-quote, the term "flying" used would seem to lean towards the definition of "fleeing", as Gandalf means when he tell sthe Fellowship to 'fly'. Why would Balrogs flee from Thangorodrim? :confused:

Last posted by Maedhros
the Varaulakula
LOL! :D ;)

[Maedhros]

So how do you explain this other quote, ie. "His wings..." ?
Can you put the complete quote so that I can answer you?
Why would Balrogs flee from Thangorodrim?
To avoid being destroyed in the War of Wrath.
From the Fall of Gondolin:
The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed -- 'at most seven'.
There were not many to begin with.

[Cian]

Same Appendix Section III (not long after the Balrog "flying" from Thangorodrim quote): Azog saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and those that could escape from the Dwarves: "... were flying south, shrieking as they ran."

So generally flying can easily mean 'fleeing' which I think well fits the Balrog quote too. A Tolkien description of a Balrog: "... their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named ..." ~JRRT

No wings there, "vast" or otherwise, but darkness/shadow certainly ~ and Tolkien has no problem describing a reaching shadow as wings: "Over the land there lies a long shadow, westward reaching wings of darkness." ~JRRT, ROTK

I say Unlight :)

[Lantarion]

Last posted by Maedhros
Can you put the complete quote so that I can answer you?
I did in my last post, a few lines before: "His wings reached from wall to wall."
Well?

[Cian]

Originally posted by Lantarion
I did in my last post, a few lines before: "His wings reached from wall to wall."
Well?

Well that's not the exact quote :) but one point is it's out of context; and in any event, there is nothing to say that a shadow cannot be called 'wings' while still being a shadow (especially if it does something winglike).

Here's more wings: "... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings." (~JRRT) Earlier the 'sails' of these ships had been described as "like wings".

Eagles with bird 'wings'?

"And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud." ~JRRT

In context they are clouds though.

[Maedhros]

Well?
I have to admit that both of you, Lantarion and Beorn are consistent, but can you give any evidence that they had wings.
Preferably complete quotes and not parts of it.

[Beorn]

Saying an action was taken with something means that something must exist, so if it refers to that thing, that thing must exist:

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: gray and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm
So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist.
The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

Is that quote complete enough for you Maed, or would you like me to put the whole book in there?

[Maedhros]

So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist.
The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

Unfortunately, the second reference to the wings, actually "refers" to the first part, which "refers" to the shadow.
Is that quote complete enough for you Maed, or would you like me to put the whole book in there?
The whole chapter would suffice.:)

[Cian]

Originally posted by Beorn
So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist. The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

The second sentence does not "prove" a Balrog had wings (beyond temporary shadow-wings). Apply what you say here to the following:

"... for the sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs," JRRT

"Like wings", then:

"... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings."

and:
The foul wings of the sea-men have not ..."

Would you also argue that the second two references do not both refer to the sails?

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Cian
"... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings."
This quote is completely different from the Balrog-quote (politely provided by Beorn), where it is perfectly feasable for the Balrog, at the time in the book an "unknown" monstrous being, to have material wings; whereas it is completely ridiculous for a ship to have such (let's call them "bird-like") wings, because they travel by water, not air. :)

[Cian]

Originally posted by Lantarion
This quote is completely different from the Balrog-quote ...

Not so :) a comparison to wings is made (like), followed by wings itself (twice).

... where it is perfectly feasable for the Balrog, at the time in the book an "unknown" monstrous being, to have material wings; whereas it is completely ridiculous for a ship to have such ...

So the reading is obvious from the sail/wings example, but is not so obvious in the Balrog example as it's feasable that a Balrog might have wings (correct me if you mean something substantially different). But that the example I posted is easily agreed upon is exactly why I posted it :)

Beorn claimed that the "second styled part" of the Balrog quote "proves" that wings exist. But as it is, the word wings can easily refer to the shadow, as it also refers to the sails.

The shadow and the sails exist. Both are 'wings' in the sense that they are winglike in some way. That's a perfectly reasonable reading of the text IMO, especially in context.

I prefer "shadow" or Unlight, and see no real reason, as yet, why these "wings" need be thought of as more than vast, temporary "reachings".

[Lantarion]

Ah, well alright. I can't say no to you. :D
And I agree anyway, that the Balrog is an Unlight-essense without actual material wings. So there.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Ah, well alright. I can't say no to you. :D
And I agree anyway, that the Balrog is an Unlight-essense without actual material wings. So there.

LOL :D

Huzzah for Unlight!

[tom_bombadil]

Barlogs have wings how else could it have fell with gandalf

[Lantarion]

What do you mean, exactly? Couldn't he have fallen if he had not had material wings (which he didn't)? :confused:
And anyway, I think any question you might have are probably answered somewhere else in this thread. :)

[Cian]

He could not have not fallen if he didn't not have non-material wings ... I think.

[Beorn]

...And, Cian......I suppose you think the Balrog has sails? :D

Originally posted by Cian
Beorn claimed that the "second styled part" of the Balrog quote "proves" that wings exist. But as it is, the word wings can easily refer to the shadow, as it also refers to the sails.

But, the Balrog quote refers to the shadow and the Balrog as two seperate entities. The ship quote refers to the sails and them metaphorically as wings, as one single entity. No where in the Balrog quote is a simile or metaphor used to connect 'Shadow' and 'Wings.'

Balrog. Shadow


The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he sa