Could a Vala die?

[fëanáro]

Are the Valar immortal like elves, or immortal as someone like "highlander". Or are they just not possible to kill, and thats why Melkor got thrown to Mandos so many times, and never slain.

[Telchar]

A Vala can never be slain, therefor the fight between the Noldor and Morgoth could never be won by the Noldor without the help of the Valar. A Vala's fea (spirit) is finite so they could, as Melkor, spend it on controlling other beeings, and in that way deminishing their own power, as happened with Melkor..
But you can kill the shape a Vala has taken, but not the spirit, and the Valar are, in their original form, spirits..

[Beleg]

*Bump*

Originally Posted by gate7ole in another thread,
Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness.

So to me, the Vala can be slain, in a way that their phyiscal bodies can be snatched from them,(as they are related to the matter of Arda) so that they may be left as a houseless, and very weak fea, because of the great power and potency of their spirit.

[Nóm]

So to me, the Vala can be slain, in a way that their phyiscal bodies can be snatched from them,(as they are related to the matter of Arda) so that they may be left as a houseless, and very weak fea, because of the great power and potency of their spirit.
Morgoth had permanently incarnated himself unlike every other Vala. The other valar were naturally without form, and when they took on a form it was like clothing.

That quote you give by gate7ole is from Morgoth's Ring.

It speaks of Morgoth being weakened in life, and then strengthening his spirit after death.

The first can not apply to the other Valar, as they did not send out much of their own power, as did Morgoth, into the physical matter of the earth or spend power in attempt to gain control over others.

I think the second can not apply to them because they were not permanently incarnated, so how could their body (clothing, really) be slain in the first place or their spirit need to build itself back up? Or if it were slain, they should still have enough power to simply 'clothe' themself again since they had lost none of their original power.

[Beleg]

think the second can not apply to them because they were not permanently incarnated, so how could their body (clothing, really) be slain in the first place or their spirit need to build itself back up? Or if it were slain, they should still have enough power to simply 'clothe' themself again since they had lost none of their original power.

So do you mean to say that Vala cannot be robbed from their body forms and that infact they are immortal?

[Nóm]

I would say the Valar are immortal within Arda, just as the elves are.

I would also say that they perhaps can not be robbed of the forms that they may take on. They are by nature houseless, unlike the elves whose natural state is the union of body and spirit.

The Valar do not need to be clothed, they may do so to interact with the children, or to experience Arda through occassional feasting and whatnot, but they do not need clothing for anything. I suppose we can not know exactly how it works, but I speculate that the Valar could instantly will themselfs to take any shape they could imagine, and could slip out of this form in a nanosecond.

If a Vala was in form, and that form destroyed, the Vala may be no less than he/she was before. It could be that they would be slightly less... but I would figure that it must be so slight that they could scarcely percieve it.

The best I can explain it is to use the analogy that comes naturally from Tolkien's use of the word 'clothe'... if a Vala was in bodily form, and that form somehow destroyed, it would be much like removing clothing from a human who was used to being nude most of the time.


So do you mean to say that Vala cannot be robbed from their body forms and that infact they are immortal?
Immortal within Arda. Perhaps robbed, but if so they would not have to rebuild in power, as would Morgoth.

[YayGollum]

I would say ---> Yes. A Valar type thing can die.

Example ---> A human gets killed. The body dies and his spirit goes whereever it's supposed to go in Tolkien's world. When the body dies, people say that the person is dead even though the spirit is still around somewhere.

A Valar type thing has a body. It is possible to destroy that body. The spirit is still around. The body definitely died. You should say that the person is dead even though the spirit is still around.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by YayGollum



Example ---> A human gets killed. The body dies and his spirit goes whereever it's supposed to go in Tolkien's world. When the body dies, people say that the person is dead even though the spirit is still around somewhere.

A Valar type thing has a body. It is possible to destroy that body. The spirit is still around. The body definitely died. You should say that the person is dead even though the spirit is still around.
I think these words put forward the problem how to define what is death?what is death in the Valar's case?death of the spirit or of the body?

[Nóm]

But the thing is that the Valar do not have bodies. They are spirits that have the ability to take shape in forms that look like the body of an elf or a tree, or any other thing I suppose.

A spirit can not be destroyed.

A Vala without a physical form is in his/her natural state.

[YayGollum]

Right. It seems to me to be that all races are equal in that every spirit stays around for forever. Mel would feel just as much pain as some human would if they cut off his head or something. The body would die for either of these people. Sure, maybe Mel would be able to evilly and unfairly grow a new head or a whole new body or something. I don't know. His body would still die. He's just get to be reborn.