Iluvatar or Valar religion

[Camille]

Hi I was thinking, and if this has come out in some other thread my apologies, but do you realize that in Middle earth there is no such thing as a religion?? Iluvatar and the Valars were not venerated as we do in real earth (Cristianity, The Islam, etc) they don't have temples or churches or anything like that, why is that??
for the elves I thinks it is maybe because they are so close to them that they feel them and don't have make anything to be close to them, and for Men... I dont know, and here comes another mistery at least for me? In tolkien's world were men go after they died? elves I know, but men??
Just wondering about some things..
Bye

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Camille
Hi I was thinking, and if this has come out in some other thread my apologies, but do you realize that in Middle earth there is no such thing as a religion?? Iluvatar and the Valars were not venerated as we do in real earth (Cristianity, The Islam, etc) they don't have temples or churches or anything like that, why is that??
for the elves I thinks it is maybe because they are so close to them that they feel them and don't have make anything to be close to them, and for Men... I dont know, and here comes another mistery at least for me? In tolkien's world were men go after they died? elves I know, but men??
Just wondering about some things..
Bye



In numenore there was temple worshiping Iluvatar and also when sauron came time of Ar Pharzon he turned into a temple for Melkor. Tolkien made a whole world, language and history 4 it he can't do everything.:confused: :D :D :)

[Gothmog]

But in the midst of the land was a mountain tall and steep, and it was named the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, and upon it was a high place that was Hallowed to Eru Iluvatar, and it was open and unroofed, and no other temple or fane was there in the land of the Numenoreans.
The Silmarillion: Akallabeth : page 313-314.

This does not mean that Iluvatar was worshiped there but that thanks were given to Iluvatar in the place that was hallowed to him.

As for the temple of Melkor this was obviously a false religion started by Sauron to destroy the Numenoreans. So in fact the Only mention of any religious devotions in the books is to someone set up in pretence as a god.

[Hirila]

The Sil tells us that Mandos alone (and of course Iluvatar and Manwe) knows where men go to when they die.
It is speculated that they go to the halls of Manods too, just as the elves do, but then they do not meet them there but have their own places.

[Grond]

Gosh Camille, what an interesting topic. And don't forget, you asked.:)

Earthly religion is based on a person's beliefs that there is a supreme diety who desires to be woshiped. He is the all mighty who made us, who is deserving of honor, the only God or the greatest of gods. That all depends on which religion you practice and earthly religious beliefs are based on "divine faith". We know in our hearts and our souls that our belief is correct but there is never any direct, "I am God and hear me speak" intervention. I have oversimplified and apologize for that but that is the essence of theology and the preachings of any faith based religion. (BTW I am a Christian and wholly subscribe to this line of logic.)

J. R. R. Tolkien gives us a world where there is no real need for faith. You have Eru/Iluvator who creates the Vala, who sing the themes who make the world of Middle-earth. Eru/Iluvator sings his own special tune and the creatures of ME are created and come into being. All of these dieties are real and not imagined. You have people roaming Middle-earth who have both seen these Ainur and who are related to these Ainur. The entire focus is not on a higher being who is unknown but on One that is absolutely known. Hence, the only referrals of worship are a Temple dedicated to Eru on Numenor (later transformed into a Melkor Temple) and the worshiping of Melkor in the Far East and South of Middle-earth described in some of JRRT's unpublished writings in the UT and HoMe.

I don't know if I've really answered your question or not, but the basic difference is the known versus the unknown. Hope I've helped and not blasphemed too much.

BTW, welcome to our forum.

[Camille]

Hello Grond!!! yes I thinks that you get what I mean, and I agree with you that the difference about "religion" in our earth and in tolkien world is the unknow versus the knowing, I have always been interested about the fact that the Tolkien higher spirits walk among the Children of Iluvatar (well, mostly with the elves :) ), and even they are related with them (Melian the Maia and Thingol.... to Earendil to the Numenorans kings) what I have always liked about this idea is that the elves and men know for sure that they are not alone and they are part of something, I dont know I think is a more pure thought
I hope that nobody bothers with this thread, religion is always a delicate issue but is intersting :D