hidden bits

[Smurfheim]

I reckon there's got to be some discussion about some of the little things that were in the Fellowship of the Ring movie that really didn't have to be there. Little things here and there that were perhaps intended for the readers of the novels to get, or possibly to keep the diehard older fans happy...

Did ANYONE else notice the three trolls that were turned to stone while debating on the fate of Bilbo and the Dwarfs in the movie? It was right after Frodo is stabbed at the watchtower and he is in pain, and the others are worried about him. There in the background, are the three troll statues...

Other things that could have been left out but were not:
Bill the Pony--we didn't have to know his name or that he was going to be okay...
Gandalf's trademark posture--very nicely slumped, mr McClellan
Borimir's horn--There was no real explanation of what the horn signified in the movie.

And then there were a couple of homages to the first lord of the rings animated movie: The Nazgul peering over a treestump while Frodo resists the urge to wear the ring. And the Nazgul's attack on the "sleeping hobbits" at the Prancing Pony. Both were very similar to the animated version.

Just making small talk...

[YayGollum]

I loved how they put the trolls in there! I noticed it the first time I watched it! Yay Bert, Tom, and William (I think)! Bill the pony is evil, didn't you know? Didn't pay attention to Gandalf, but Gollum's posture was good. :rolleyes: I did kind of think it was stupid that that was the only time we saw the horn! Didn't see the animated version. Is that bad?

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Bill the pony is evil, didn't you know?

Hey, what did I do to you? In the books I don't remember even meeting you, and I have never on this Forum called Gollum evil! It's not fair :( :eek: :confused:

In the movie I liked that they let Legolas walk on top of the snow.

[Snaga]

The animated film is absolutely dire! Its so bad its almost good!:D

There was quite a bit of detail like that: Bilbo's copy of the map of Erebor is another.

[Thorin]

I fail to understand the logic of those who seem to be happy with Arwen's extended role justifing it by saying that Glorfindel is minor or "weak" character and that he didn't add anything to the movie (??) and yet are just tickled pink by Bill the pony and the three trolls who have nothing to do with LoTR as far as the movie goes are slapped there for everyone to see and non-Tolkienites to wonder what the heck those big stone things were.

Maybe if PJ would have spent more time on things that mattered instead of things that had nothing to do with the movie line, other important things like keeping Arwen true to Tolkien's character could have been focused on. That would have made the die-hard fans happier then paying unnecessary homage to The Hobbit by showing useless trolls...

Cut Glorfindel and Tom B because they have no bearing on the story, but emphasise Bill the pony and add three stone trolls in the mix...:rolleyes:

[lilhobo]

INT. ORTHANC, HOME OF THE OBVIOUSLY EVIL SARUMAN



GANDALF

I need your help.



SARUMAN

Blegh. I vant to suck your blood.



GANDALF

Despite your creepy demeanor, I’m going

to reveal some secrets.



SARUMAN

I work for Sauron.



GANDALF

You are the wisest of the Wise.



SARUMAN

I’m evil.



GANDALF

I trust you implicitly.



SARUMAN

I’ll make you break dance.



GANDALF

You ARE evil!



GANDALF and SARUMAN have a really silly looking fight.

...........need i say more :D :D :D

[Greenwood]

Smurfheim

Welcome to the Forum.

Yes there were lots of little hidden nods to the books for avid fans to spot. There were also a number of mentions of chapter titles slipped in, especially in the beginning of the movie.

You will have to forgive Thorin's post. These posts crop up all over the board complaining about the movie and especially the Arwen character in the movie even when they have absolutely nothing to do with the thread. Whenever anyone posts anything favorable about the movie one of these posts is likely to appear. I suspect Peter Jackson ran over Thorin's dog when Thorin was young.

[markrob]

I second what Greenwood said, and will add to it that those who feel that way are in the major minority. They even told us they were thru with the movie forum and vowed to never return but we see how that turned out didnt we......:rolleyes:

[Aerin]

Markrob, I would have sworn that you were wondering where the purists had gone to...

I agree with Thorin. If PJ had spent more effort on staying true to the book, he wouldn't have needed the little extras. Of course, seeing the trolls and the map and Gandalf's posture was nice, but I was truly hoping PJ would offer a decent interpretation of LotR.
I miss Tom Bombadill, but he wasn't very essential to the plot. (Aragorn carrying around four extra swords "was" essential...?)
Glorfindel, on the other hand, had a very important role. Glorfindel was one of the most powerful Elf Lords, and even he and Gandalf combined could not fend off the Nazgul. (Arwen somehow managed to out-distance the whole Nazgul band? How does that fit into LotR?) The Nazgul's reign of fear was greatly diminished in the movie because a snippy little Elf girl could beat them off.
Arwen was not a warrior in the books, yet she turns out to be an imitation Xena in the movie. I went to the theatre expecting to see the Elf - not Xena.

[bunnywhippit]

You know i was just about to post a topic about this?!

The trolls - i noticed them the first time, and thought they were only some sort of monuments, and it wasn't until i heard someone in here say they were Bilbo's trolls that it clicked!

I think it's wonderful that some little bits and pieces were put in there. The deeper you look into the film, the more you see. It's great that we can look for them, and it brings so much more to the story, imho.

I liked how Elrond said "Gimli son of Gloin" during the Council of Elrond. The book has so many So and So son of Whoever's that to have that put in there at least once was quite nice. Ahh.. nostalgia ;)

I remember reading in another thread someone mentioned the White Hand of Saruman. The Uruk-hai have them put on their faces. I liked that, adding something that would have taken up too much time to explain, but at least it's in there, if only in visual form.

Hmm.. now, there were a few other things, what were they? Greenwood, yes, i liked the chapter titles put in at the begining of the film. Even if it was only so that i could identify them as such. Heh.

[YayGollum]

I was just being crazy, I don't really give a rip about Bill the Pony (does pony really need to be capitalized?). Who liked how they put Sauron in there more? Who was afraid of all the flashbacks? Will they have a really great one about Gollum? :D

[Mormegil]

I think it's great that they put those little things into the movie.

You would think that the NPW's would love it as well because it means that they have something over the movie goers who never read the books.

[TheJospeh]

The trolls added to the movie are a good idea. Not because they allow me to "have something over the movie goers who never read the books." They're a good idea because they are supported within the movie. Bilbo mentions the trolls being turned into stone while in the Shire. A clever movie watcher could pick up on that, the scene is not just for NPW.

The chapter titles being added in on the other hand, was a pitiful attempt to make purists happy. Counter to Mormegil's claim the purists don't want to lord their knowledge over the normal movie-goers. We want the movie to do justice to something we love. That's our only concern. I'm quite sure we all have better things to do with our lives then taunt people with our extensive knowledge of Tolkien. When the hobbits pause dramatically to mention a chapter title I want to vomit. PJ obviously has no idea how to satisfy the purists.

Aerin, good point, on the logical necessity of Glorfindel. Don't try and explain it to Harad though. He just can't "get" it.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[Snaga]

You guys make me laugh! Any diversion from the letter of the books is condemned. Anything about the film that someone likes is condemned. E.G. The trolls. If you remembered the book, Aragorn and the 4 hobbits do see the 3 stone trolls. How can you criticise their presence???
Glorfindel, on the other hand, had a very important role. Glorfindel was one of the most powerful Elf Lords, and even he and Gandalf combined could not fend off the Nazgul. (Arwen somehow managed to out-distance the whole Nazgul band? How does that fit into LotR?) The Nazgul's reign of fear was greatly diminished in the movie because a snippy little Elf girl could beat them off.

Arwen was not a warrior in the books, yet she turns out to be an imitation Xena in the movie. I went to the theatre expecting to see the Elf - not Xena.

You have betrayed yourself badly with this post. You don't really know the book very well do you?? So the Nazgul can't be withstood by Gandalf and Glorfindel together? So where's that in the book oh purest Aerin? Glorfindel and Gandalf never combine forces against the 9. Again if you read the book, you will find that Glorfindel's horse IS faster than those of the 9. So wrong again. The comparison with Xena is trite. Show me in the film where Arwen strikes a blow, wears armour, or throws a circular cutting type thingy. Or for that matter where Xena ever unleashes the force of a river to destroy her opponents. This is an adaptation, and if you don't like it fair enough but when you call Arwen a "snippy little Elf girl" your motivation is exposed: you just don't like a strong female character do you? Try dealing with it...

[Thrakerzog]

Thorin,
Do you just copy and past the same post to every thread, with a little tweak here & there to make it "appropriate"?

That post is about all I have ever seen from you.

TRY to ADD something to the forums. We ALL know how you feel about Arwen, stop beating the horse, it's dead!

I can't believe how much you twisted that post just to make it "on topic" even though it really has nothing to do with the thread.

[Greenwood]

Variag of Khand

You beat me to the keyboard with your post. The only thing I would add is that in the movie, Arwen does not take the Nazgul on in personal combat. Her horse, good old Asfaloth, out runs them as Asfaloth does in the book. Rather than let the Nazgul sit around thinking of something to do, Arwen then draws her sword and challenges them to enter the river where they are swept away by the flood. I call this using tactics and guile to defeat a numerically superior and probably stronger enemy. Something that one could reasonably expect from a 3000 year old elf princess.

[markrob]

V of K

YOU DA MAN!!!!! Sheath your sword for a few days for you have dealt a mighty blow to the blow hard purists. Take a break and have an ale on me at the Prancing Pony.

[Mormegil]

Yay Vof K. Very well put:)

It's amazing how purists can't seem to watch the film on its own merit and enjoy it.

[Smurfheim]

I kind of liked the Gandalf/Saruman fight--sure, it was like Moses and Edgar Winter remaking a scene from the Matrix, but it was fast and violent and fragile bones hitting the floor hard and skin squeeking on marble floor. Almost as much fun as throwing ball bearings on the floor at your local retirement home...

And, hey... can't the die hard Novel freaks get along with the die hard movie freaks??? Can't we find a happy medium and join forces and focus our attack against people who deserve it--like Pauly Shore and Carrot Top???

The novel was awesome, but come on--if someone were to make it an exact representation of the book and include every detail, the thing would be fifty hours long! I liked the novel because you got to know the characters, and their swords and their horses, and the horses of their fathers and the dogs of their uncles....Tolkein's Homeric vision of making the story real through historical explanation. But I loved the movie because they didn't do that. Legolas, Boromir and Gimli unfortunately are far far less rounded characters in the movie, but I suspect that will change in the following two--well, except for Boromir, I guess.

So enjoy the novel for what it is, but enjoy the movie for what IT is. Is that such a bad idea???

[TheJospeh]

You pro-movie nuts really crack me up. If Thorin ever repeats an argument he is droning on endlessly, a broken record. If one of your ilk makes the statement that "the book is just to long to translate into a movie exactly" you all post congrats on this brand new pearl of wisdom! Everyone knows THAT and no one has ever argued it.

Anyone who liked the movie does not understand the intent Tolkien had for the novels. They don't understand the man through the literature and letters he left behind. This is fine, I don't understand most of the authors I read, however, anyone who thinks this movie didn't totally betray Tolkien's vision is being just plain foolish. The movie on its own merits can still be good, of course, though it isn't that great.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[Thorin]

Thrakerzog,

My comment, though containing reference to Arwen was valid within the thread...read it again...And I will continue to flog the dead horse where necessary for all those who seem to think that Arwen's revamped and fabricated role in the movie is the best thing to happen to Arwen since being born an elf.... When people stop trying to defend the role by refering to Luthien and the "spirit of Tolkien" to justify such a ridiculously non-Tolkien Arwen, and just admit that it was out of place but they liked it anyway, I'll quit flogging the dead horse....
I have more respect for the opinions of Arwen (the poster) who admits she likes Arwen in the movie for the simple sake that..she likes her! You guys, on the other hand seem to think that Tolkien SHOULD have created her that way and that she would get his stamp of approval...


markrob,

I did leave for a while but I couldn't allow you FADs, who seem to have forgotten about Tolkien's LOTR in favor of the movie, to corrupt all the newbies....Besides, it's your warm and friendly personality that I missed the most...I just couldn't stay away from you...:p

[Greenwood]

My comment, though containing reference to Arwen was valid within the thread...read it again...And I will continue to flog the dead horse where necessary for all those who seem to think that Arwen's revamped and fabricated role in the movie is the best thing to happen to Arwen since being born an elf.... When people stop trying to defend the role by refering to Luthien and the "spirit of Tolkien" to justify such a ridiculously non-Tolkien Arwen, and just admit that it was out of place but they liked it anyway, I'll quit flogging the dead horse....

Thorin

No one in this thread had said anything about Arwen or Glorfindel prior to your gratuitous attack. No one on this thread had defended the change in anyway since the topic had never been raised prior to your gratuitious attack. Your post was completely out of place.

As for the last part of your little tirade above. I have probably been the most persistent in giving what I perceive to be the reasons Jackson did what he did with Arwen in the movie. I believe I was the first to point to Luthien as a way of showing that Tolkien did create at least one very active and formidable elf princess, and I have done so repeatedly. I have also stated publicly on this forum that I loved the book's version of the flight to the ford and would have been quite happy to see it in the movie. Never have I said that I liked the movie version better. I have said that I understand the reasons for the change and it didn't bother me. All of this has been said already by me and others, yet you keep "flogging the dead horse" anyway. Your hatred of this adaptation in the movie seems to me to verge on the pathological.

[Snaga]

Thorin

Phrases like 'you people' etc aren't helpful really are they? I like the film, but I don't expect I will ever watch it as many times as I've read LotR the book. The book is a classic, one of the finest pieces of literature. The film is an excellent film. I'm not prepared to go beyond that at present. I think trying to place it in some sort of echelon of 'greatness' is hard at present, because until it takes time to truly get a perspective.

I think that achieving a great piece of cinema is a worthy thing to strive for, and I further believe that it is a goal that cannot be met without substantial changes to what was in the novel. And yes length is one aspect - but only one. The paucity of significant parts is, in this day and age, another issue.

You say
I fail to understand the logic of those who seem to be happy with Arwen's extended role justifing it by saying that Glorfindel is minor or "weak" character and that he didn't add anything to the movie (??) and yet are just tickled pink by Bill the pony and the three trolls who have nothing to do with LoTR as far as the movie goes are slapped there for everyone to see and non-Tolkienites to wonder what the heck those big stone things were.

I think the starting point is that we want the movie to be a success, and we want to enjoy it, and we want it to make Lord of the Rings known to a wider audience. So we accept changes in the interests of that. But where there are things from the novel that we know and love, we have every right to delight in them. You, on the other hand, seem to be angry that they are even there. How dare he show the trolls as per the book, when Glorfindel has been editted out? If you said I'm glad the trolls are there, but I think Glorfindel should be there, that would make sense to me.

But the other thing is that you are wrong to lump us all together. You may find in other threads about the film that I have said that I don't like the weak and naive portrayal of Frodo, and I don't like the breaking of the Fellowship. I do not, and nor do many fans of the film, unconditionally endorse every aspect of it.

But what I and many many other people will tell you is that actually PJ does an excellent job of bringing Middle Earth from the page to the screen. He does so by giving us some of the scale and grandeur of Tolkien's vision but also the richness of detail. That's why the things that Smurfheim excellent post reminded of us originally are so important. I suspect it may be why you resent them so much.

[TheJospeh]

...about a small part of the epic vision being translated to the screen. However, I don't understand how you can argue the details that make the novels great are transferred, as well. Isn't the whole argument between FADS and NPWs about how the "little things" got left out? The FADs maintain its still a good movie despite the lack of those little things, and the NPWs say their abscence ruins the whole movie. Isn't this the very problem that has created flame war after flame war?

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[Thrakerzog]

Thorin, what the hell are you talking about?!!?!?
Your comments are NOT valid within the thread.
YOU read it again.

It is as CLEAR AS A CLOUDLESS DAY what Smurfheim meant in this thread.

Read the TITLE: HIDDEN BITS
From the EXPLANATION:
Little things here and there that were perhaps intended for the readers of the novels to get

Read his EXAMPLES:
The Stone Trolls added to the background
Using Bill the Ponies name instead of just having the pony there
Gandalf's "trademark" posture
Borimir's horn
Tipping of the hat to Bashki

Is your reading comprehension so bad that you are unable to realize what Smurfheim was talking about?

Yes, I know your argument, and it is pretty damn stupid frankly.
How much of the rest of the post did you have to strip away before your post makes sense??

I mean, if I use your liberal use of the edit button I come up with this:

QUOTE FROM THORIN:
I ... seem to be happy with Arwen's extended role justifing it by saying that Glorfindel is minor or "weak" character

There we have it! Thorin LOVES the Arwen scene! He even justifies it by saying Glofindel is a minor or "weak" character!

Oh, the other words in Thorins post that I quoted above? Those where just excess in my opinion. I have found the real point.


Duh.

[Fingolfin]

Did anybody notice the runes along the walls, back in the watch chember of Moria? you know, the one with Balin's grave. Those looked pretty cool.
One more thing, ....Im not sure if anyone listened to the elvish they were speaking, but was it just me, or was Arwen reciting a poem the whole time when she was sopposedly summoning the flood, and during the part she was talking to Aragorn? I'm not fluent in Quenya and Sindarin or anything, most sounded perfectly acurate though.

[Thorin]

Easy Thraker, before you give yourself a hernia...

So my comments weren't exactly relevant to this post, it was just something I was pointing out that I noticed...Like none of you ever went farther off topic then me on other threads...

All I was commenting on was how I've noticed on other threads besides this one that alot of people ridicule a purist like me because I feel some unnecessary changes were made to characters and scenes..I get crapped all over with arguments like, "There wasn't enough time." or "It doesn't add anything to the story," or "quit being such a nit-picking weenie over the details." Then I see everyone so excited about three stone trolls and glad that Bill the pony got mentioned by name. Details that are even less significant than the ones I point out and get ridiculed for it.Which do you think would have been more important to the story to have in the movie?

I was just showing the lack of Tolkien priorities and hypocrisy that some members engage in while pointing fingers and ridiculing those who point out what really should matter...

Forgive me, some of you, if if generalised too much and wrongly classified you...

[YayGollum]

I hope I wasn't really annoying when I messed up other people's threads going off on a Gollum rant! :rolleyes: I'll try not to say "you people" anymore. I did notice the runes all over the place where Balin's tomb was. Also, I kept thinking of the Tomb Raider movie when Legolas was on that ledge or whatever and the troll was trying to get him. Did anybody think it was cool how PJ made Gollum out to be less evil than he actually was? In the movie he only said Shire and Baggins, but in the book he told them everything! Yay Gollum! :D

[YayGollum]

I just remembered this! What about that part where Legolas says he hears fell voices in the air? I thought that Saruman was supposed to have this weird voice that always sounded wise. Or is that only when he's trying to do it? Just thought that was a little weird movie thing.

[Thrakerzog]

Easy Thraker, before you give yourself a hernia...

Um, you do know what a hernia is, right?

So my comments weren't exactly relevant to this post,

Which is exactly what i said.

it was just something I was pointing out that I noticed...

Which you do ALL the time - point out the EXACT same "something".

Like none of you ever went farther off topic then me on other threads...

Only when you or Readwryt or the others post completely off-topic things like this.

All I was commenting on was how I've noticed on other threads besides this one that alot of people ridicule a purist like me because blah blah blah... :rolleyes:

And here we get your OTHER cut and paste "special".

Stop whining about Arwen.
Stop whining about how it isn't fair that not everyone agree's with you.

We all know you hate the "Xena-Arwen", we've heard it in almost every thread there is.

I was just showing the lack of Tolkien priorities and hypocrisy that some members engage in while pointing fingers and ridiculing those who point out what really should matter...

Yeah yeah yeah, we're all hypocrits blah blah blah. Just stop whining already. :rolleyes:

[Thorin]

Thraker's going to blow a gasket pretty soon unless someone can help him learn to disagree without acting like a cornered bull who has nothing else to do but snort and huff and antagonize without anything useful to contribute to the argument....

It's sad enough to continually criticize and ridicule someone else and their opinion...It's even more sad to criticize and ridicule someone else and their opinion and not have any decent argument of your own to express....

[Thrakerzog]

Thorin,
learn to disagree without acting like a cornered bull who has nothing else to do but snort and huff and antagonize without anything useful to contribute to the argument....

You mean EXACTLY like you do?

not have any decent argument of your own to express....

Wow Thorin, are you talking about me, or yourself?!?! Everything you said fits you to a T.

Btw, nice job staying off topic from post ONE on this thread!

Oh, and also, good job at trying to shift blame for your own poor ability to post approriatly to others!

You almost muddled the issue enough to get away with it!

[ReadWryt]

Personal stuff needs to be in PMs or Email, let the other members talk about Tolkien stuff as I am certain they don't want to talk about either of you with a burning desire...:p

[markrob]

Originally posted by Thorin
Then I see everyone so excited about three stone trolls and glad that Bill the pony got mentioned by name. Details that are even less significant than the ones I point out and get ridiculed for it.Which do you think would have been more important to the story to have in the movie?



You are absolutely right. But the difference is all of our topics/details pointed out are positive and all of yours are negative. That is why you so deservetly get crapped on all the time, get it? Quit complaining and no one will disagree with you. I actually did miss your company, compared to the alternative threads and posters lately, you purists are a piece of cake. Welcome back and prepare for battle if you so desire, I mean battle in the niceist of ways of coarse. I have mellowed a bit since December but will turn it on when a purist goes astray. :p

[Eomer Dinmention]

You have betrayed yourself badly with this post. You don't really know the book very well do you?? So the Nazgul can't be withstood by Gandalf and Glorfindel together? So where's that in the book oh purest Aerin? Glorfindel and Gandalf never combine forces against the 9. Again if you read the book, you will find that Glorfindel's horse IS faster than those of the 9. So wrong again. The comparison with Xena is trite. Show me in the film where Arwen strikes a blow, wears armour, or throws a circular cutting type thingy. Or for that matter where Xena ever unleashes the force of a river to destroy her opponents. This is an adaptation, and if you don't like it fair enough but when you call Arwen a "snippy little Elf girl" your motivation is exposed: you just don't like a strong female character do you? Try dealing with it...

Variag of Khand

Are you saying that Aerin doesn't know her stuff. You have no idea. Aerin has being here way before you ever came. Yes Arwen does not fight against the nine but shes meaning that Arwen is brought into Helm's Deep and she then fights there in the Movie

And don't try and insult her

[Snaga]

I did not try to insult Aerin, but I was excessive in my tone in attacking her point of view. Aerin - I'm sorry. Looking at some of the exchanges on this thread its a bit embarrassing to be tarred with the same brush.

However I didn't insult her personally. If I'd tried I would have succeeded. And then been banned. But in future if you have a problem of this kind with a post of mine, why not either PM me, or report me to a moderator. I've replied publicly because you've attacked me publicly, but I don't think that's what this forum is for. I will try to be nicer in future - can everyone else too OK?:)

Are you saying that Aerin doesn't know her stuff. You have no idea. Aerin has being here way before you ever came. Yes Arwen does not fight against the nine but shes meaning that Arwen is brought into Helm's Deep and she then fights there in the Movie

I concede that Aerin may have a detailed knowledge of the book, but I do have to maintain there was a lack of evidence of it in her post. You're right - I've no idea. I'll wait for some more posts from her and try to get some idea. I'm sorry if Aerin was meaning she doesn't like TTT. I can only explain my error in that:
(1) She didn't mention TTT. (Her complaints were only about FotR. Sorry if this seems unreasonable but I'll reply to what people write. Its incumbent on people to express themselves clearly if they do not wish to be misunderstood.)
(2) I didn't think TTT had been released yet. (I didn't think people were going to judge her entire role in another film on the basis of a couple of stills. For myself I won't judge TTT until I've seen it.)

I await with interest a post from Aerin saying that, in fact, she felt that there wasn't a problem with the portrayal of Arwen in FotR.:D

But as for not thinking that being a member of this forum for a long time equates to superior knowledge of Tolkien. We'll have to agree to differ on that.

[Gary Gamgee]

Legolas walking on top of the snow was a really good bit in the film that i didn't notice till the second time round and how he never missed a shot.

As the Arwen thing come on he had to create a strong female presence for all the right reasons, it's the 21st century. That adaptation, of course, will never be as good as the novel nor any adaptation because the book lives within our imagination and nobody else's vision will ever live up to that. I went into watching the film reminding myself that it was a film i was going to see not a book. And believe me i have some problems with it but overall i think he made a good film.

This diatribe of personal attacks is really wearisome can't we be as courteous to each other as Tolkien's characters are.

Gary Gamgee at your service.

[lilhobo]

heck if u get reported to the MODs for abusing language you will be rewared with a MODship lol :D

[Smurfheim]

I just thought of this:

PJ didn't really have to show the Fellowship trying to go over the mountains at all. He could have had them go straight to the Dwarf City without mention of the alternate route. I think that has to be a good arguement for his loyalty to the storyline. I think he might also have been showing off New Zealand's geographic diversity. Once my student loans are paid off, I'm moving there. Maybe one of the Hobbit houses is up for rent...

[markrob]

Originally posted by Smurfheim
I just thought of this:

PJ didn't really have to show the Fellowship trying to go over the mountains at all. He could have had them go straight to the Dwarf City without mention of the alternate route. I think that has to be a good arguement for his loyalty to the storyline.

That is such a good point. Purist are so quick to judge PJ for his mishaps, and there are some (and btw FADS doesnt and has never meant that we agree totally with PJ's flick, only that we can live with it) but they hardly ever refer to all the good and small things that were in the movie and could have easily been left out. Sure from time to time they mention them but right away they counter it with a lambasting of PJ. Good point smurfheim and I concur.

[Grond]

Originally posted by markrob
That is such a good point. Purist are so quick to judge PJ for his mishaps, and there are some (and btw FADS doesnt and has never meant that we agree totally with PJ's flick, only that we can live with it) but they hardly ever refer to all the good and small things that were in the movie and could have easily been left out. Sure from time to time they mention them but right away they counter it with a lambasting of PJ. Good point smurfheim and I concur. OH MY GOODNESS! I thought I was a NPW and realize from markrob's post that I am, in fact, a FAD. I don't totally agree with PJ's flick, but I can live with it. In fact, I loved it. (except for the Arwen thing). Oops, I pulled a Thorin.

Well, back on post. Did anybody notice that both Arwen (Liv) and Galadriel (Kate) had extremely pouty lips. Liv's have always looked like they had been injected but Kate's never did before. I wonder if it was a part of the look PJ was trying to give to the Elven female characters. It looks awesome. I love both of them and think both epitomize what I hoped Arwen and Galadriel would have looked like. (Although truthfully Galadriel should have been drop dead gorgeous).

I hope this qualifies as hidden bits. If not.... did anyone happen to notice that the Cave Troll definately appeared to be a masculine Cave Troll??? Now that was a hidden bit that didn't appear too hidden!!!;)

[PRH]

Grond,

I agree, Cate Blanchett is really great and all but Galadriel should've been drop dead gorgeous.

On the other hand, if you're implying that we could see the cave-troll's unit - I think you're quite mistaken.

[Greenwood]

I hope this qualifies as hidden bits. If not.... did anyone happen to notice that the Cave Troll definately appeared to be a masculine Cave Troll??? Now that was a hidden bit that didn't appear too hidden!!!

Grond

I believe I know what you are referring to, but I thought it was a loincloth. The studio was worried enough about getting a PG rating because of the violence. I don't think they would have risked their rating for an anatomically correct cave troll. :eek: :)

[Aerin]

Let's see... my reponse....

No, I do not approve of Arwen in the movie. No matter what her "value" as an enhanced character was, I do not like her and I never will like her.
On the contrary, I do like a good, strong female character in a movie. Xena is one of my favourites. ;) What I do mind is when a wimpy Elven princess comes in and takes over a great Elf Lord's position.

Variag, I didn't take offense to your rebuttal of my post. As long as those arguing with me have a solid argument, I am happy "discussing" the fine points with them.

Alright, so Arwen didn't actually have hand-to-hand combat with the Nazgul... but she came awfully close to it. I still am firmly convinced that Glorfindel should have kept his role in the rescue of Frodo and the turning of the Nazgul from the Ford. I do not claim to have an intimate knowledge of LotR, I am always learning new things, but I do know the difference between Glorfindel and Arwen. :rolleyes:

[PRH]

I wonder how different the views would be of Movie Arwen if she hadn't drawn her sword at the ford....

I wonder how different the views would be of Movie Elrond if he hadn't said "Men are weak..."

[Grond]

Originally posted by PRH
I wonder how different the views would be of Movie Arwen if she hadn't drawn her sword at the ford....

I wonder how different the views would be of Movie Elrond if he hadn't said "Men are weak..." Grond would have preferred no one at the Fords except Frodo and the Wraiths. (That is how it is in the book) and Elrond never made such a statement utterred with such contempt in the book either. I would give him a pass though because I would think any Elf who had been alive through Two Ages of Middle-earth, would have come to understand that short lived men are totally undependable. (At least that's what my wife's opinion of men, especially me!):)

[Greenwood]

Grond would have preferred no one at the Fords except Frodo and the Wraiths. (That is how it is in the book)

Grond

Just a friendly note that I think you did not mean exactly what you said above. Aragorn, Glorfindel, Merry, Pippin and Sam were all at the Ford in the book waving flaming brands at the Nazgul.

[Grond]

Greenwood, not at Frodo's moment of glory where he valiantly defies the Nazgul. They didn't appear until the flood had already begun. Anyway, you knew what I meant!!!:p

[Snaga]

I too would have liked Frodo to have his moment of defiance at the Fords, or perhaps more to the point I would have preferred a stronger portrayal of Frodo in general. Hypothetically if they had shot the scene strictly a la book, but with Arwen replacing Glorfindel who would have minded that?

Thorin, I can pretty much assume you would. Because its a change from the book which as far as I understand you is reason enough to condemn it.

Aerin, I guess you would also object from: What I do mind is when a wimpy Elven princess comes in and takes over a great Elf Lord's position. But I don't get where you're coming from on this. Glorfindel performs no great physical feats in the book. He rides around on his horse with bells tinkling in the wind, and then puts Frodo on it and gets his horse to run as fast as it can. No great physical strength displayed. Then he lights some fire and scare the Nazguls horses into the flood of Bruinen. Brave but there's no reason why Arwen couldn't be brave. You call her a wimpy elf princess (so not like Xena any more eh?;) ) - do you mean she's wimpy in the film or the book? In the book she stays at home to do her cross-stitch, so you don't really know what her capabilities are. In the film she doesn't seem to be weak, she is brave and powerful, but not a warrior-princess.

Maybe I'm missing something? I often do:)

[Grond]

VoK, I think Aerin is referring to the fact that Glorfindel did not have to light fire to startle the Nazgul into the flood. Yes, the other party members came up bearing torches, but Glorfindel was revealed in all his otherwordly elven glory. Frodo, while wearing the Ring, viewed Glorfindel as a bright light among the dark servants of Sauron and it wasn't because of fire.

Having said that, Arwen was a powerful Elf in her own right and I would have had no problem with her simply replacing Glorfindel in the movie. As you know, my objection was the expansion of that role to the detriment of Frodo's characterization and not the fact that it was someone else loaning him a horse. I guess Grond is categorized as a NPW/FAD. lol;)

[Snaga]

Well, what can I say... I agree ! I must be one too then!

[markrob]

Grond, Grond, Grond, first of all congrats on moderator status, I guess.

Now you of all people should know the only way you can have it both ways is by proclaiming yourself a FAD only. NPW's are historically known as a movie haters only. Therefore, you are not NPW. That is the whole belief behind FADship. We do not like certain alterations of PJ's flick but we can accept them and live a normal life. NPW's on the otherhand hate every aspect of the film and especially detest PJ. You have some sense to you so again you are not a NPW. V of K you are truely a FAD at heart, Congratulations.

Speaking of FAD's, anybody seen Foe Hammer lately? :confused:

[PRH]

Grond:

Originally posted by Grond:
Frodo, while wearing the Ring, viewed Glorfindel as a bright light among the dark servants of Sauron

Frodo was not wearing the Ring at the Ford.

[markrob]

I think he means the first time Frodo saw ole Glorypants, not necessaraly (sp) at the Ford. :confused:

[Grond]

No markrob, Grond is wrong. What I should have said is that Frodo was so near to the wraith world because of the morgul blade that he saw the true spirit of Glorfindel. From FotR, Many Meetings, Gandalf speaks to Frodo, "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side; one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while..."

So I was mistaken in saying that Frodo had put on the Ring, it was because of the Morgul wound that he was very near becoming a wraith at that time. And in that state, he beheld the true glory of Glorfindel as he is upon the other side. (Drat, I knew I should have read the Chapter first):(;)

[Jai]

Okay, folks, I have a confession to make (if anyone wants to hear it). I've been listening to the arguments about FAD's and NPW's now for a few weeks. I get the general idea, but have to admit, I don't know what the initials stand for. So, I give up - can anyone enlighten me? (Or would it all just darken my outlook?)

[Ged]

Well, I've been reading (and enjoying) these threads now for about a week, and whilst I have no problem with the so-called "purists" holding the views they do, it does seem to me that hijacking somebody else's unrelated thread is unacceptable and gratuitous. Set up your own threads then you can whine away to your hearts content between yourselves.

Back to this thread, or at least a related theme:

There are a number of scenes in the film which on first viewing I thought were deviations from the book, but which on second thoughts I realised were actually true to it. Two immediate examples spring to mind:

Saruman calling up the storm against the fellowship on Caradhras. Though not explicit in the book, it is implied. From memory Gandalf says something like "This is Saruman's doing" when they are being battered by the storm.

Saruman "creating" the super-orc Lurtz and his brethren. As has been discussed eruditely on another thread, it does seem that this is true to the book and the history of ME. Though the Uruks are said to have been bred by Sauron and Saruman from about TA 2500, they clearly didn't breed them in partnership. They bred independently and produced disparate breeds. So, Saruman did have his breed of orc - the Uruk-Hai according to Greenwood. (Apologies to you Greenwood if I have misinterpreted or badly described your view on this.)

[PRH]

NPW = nit-picking weenie
FAD = film adaptation defenders

[Greenwood]

Ged

Actually in the book exactly who or what caused the storm on Caradhras is left unresolved. The movie comes down on the Saruman side of the argument. The movie is not provably right or wrong, it just chose a side.

No apologies necessary on the Uruk vs Uruk-hai issue. You were pretty close. I think Sauron developed the Uruks around 2500 and Saruman developed the Uruk-hai (probably from Uruks, but there is no evidence on that) near the end of the Third Age. (BTW, I do not wish to take sole credit here on this. Aragil has also been presenting his own points, often more clearly and eloquently than I, in this discussion over on the book section.)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Greenwood
Ged

Actually in the book exactly who or what caused the storm on Caradhras is left unresolved. The movie comes down on the Saruman side of the argument. The movie is not proofably right or wrong, it just chose a side.

No apologies necessary on the Uruk vs Uruk-hai issue. You were pretty close. I think Sauron developed the Uruks around 2500 and Saruman developed the Uruk-hai (probably from Uruks, but there is no evidence on that) near the end of the Third Age. (BTW, I do not wish to take sole credit here on this. Aragil has also been presenting his own points, often more clearly and eloquently than I, in this discussion over on the book section.) Actually, the clear implication in the book is that Gandalf, at the least, felt the storm was a direct result of Sauron and not Saruman. I quote from FotR, The Ring Goes South,
"'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf."
This is a clear statement by Gandalf as to who caused the storm and his name isn't Saruman.

It should also be noted that Uruk-hai is accepted by both Aragil and Greenwood to refer exclusively to Saruman's greater-orcs. Some of us remain unconvinced or uncertain.:)

[Snaga]

I don't think that is prime facie evidence that Sauron created the storm. Just Gandalf saying it could be, I think. Its true that this is much stronger evidence than you will ever find for Saruman's involvement in the book.

In the book the relationship between Saruman and Sauron and their degree of cooperation, and who was responsible for what ill that beset the Fellowship is quite difficult to unpick. See the book forum - there's a thread on this 'Saruman's Military Intelligence'. I'd contend that PJ simplifies this, in order to get a clear bad guy for the movie. Some of the book's complexity, Harad has argued, may be revealed in TTT. It's fair on that basis to reserve judgement I think.:)

Posted by markrob
Now you of all people should know the only way you can have it both ways is by proclaiming yourself a FAD only. NPW's are historically known as a movie haters only. Therefore, you are not NPW. That is the whole belief behind FADship. We do not like certain alterations of PJ's flick but we can accept them and live a normal life. NPW's on the otherhand hate every aspect of the film and especially detest PJ. You have some sense to you so again you are not a NPW. V of K you are truely a FAD at heart, Congratulations.

Your definition of NPWs seems OK. But I'm increasingly convinced that the only workable definition of FAD is someone intractable opposed to the NPWs. It all seems like a good excuse for a slanging match. I'm glad you agree with my opinions markrob, but having stepped back and thought about this I like the Treebeard position:
I don't know about sides. I go my own way; but your way might go along with mine for a while :D

[Grond]

I, too, have great hopes that PJ will pull the proberbial rabbit out of the hat in TT and bring everything back on track. I also have hopes for the directorial cut DVD of ROTK which should come out later this year.

I am reserving judgement on this issue until I see both.:)

[Ged]

I may be wrong, and without going through the LoTR line by line I cannot be sure, but I felt certain there was some line in which Gandalf accuses Saruman of tampering with the weather.

[Ged]

"That day the weather changed again, almost as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a clear light in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from far away."

This is probably the scene I was thinking of. I think it refers to Saruman.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ged
"That day the weather changed again, almost as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a clear light in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from far away."

This is probably the scene I was thinking of. I think it refers to Saruman. And might you explain how that quote brought to the assumption of Saruman's involvement? My quote makes it apparent that Gandalf felt is was Sauron. That doesn't mean Sauron was involved nor that Saruman wasn't; but, how does that quote send you in Saruman's direction?:confused:

Oh wait! I get it! Sauron started it and Saruman stopped it. That is a scene that would have looked good in the movie.... Sauron and Saruman striving to both block the path and clear the path.;)

[Ged]

Simply because at that time Saruman alone knew anything there was to know about the fellowship heading south. The "crows", for example, which spied on the fellowship came from him.

[Grond]

Ged, surely by the time the Fellowship left Rivendell, the Nazgul had returned to Sauron and informed him that the Hobbit Baggins was in Imladris. Sauron would then need to block any and all routes possible. He had Mordor orcs in Moria and the Pass of Carahdras he blocked with the weather.

Not really. I don't know for sure. I was just illustrating that Gandalf thought it was Sauron and he would have known the Fellowship might head for Minis Tirith.... but as you rightly point out.... so would Saruman.:o

[Ged]

Sauron may well have known or guessed that the Fellowship were heading south, west of the Misty Mountains, though if he had any real idea surely he would have sent the Winged Nazgul to search for them. As far as I am aware, the Nazgul don't cross the river Anduin until later.

The main reference I know of concerning the Fellowship being spied upon is that of the birds (crows? whatever) which fly over the party a few days out from Rivendell. The clear implication to me was that these were sent by Saruman. (The fact that this is stated in the film is beside the point. Please do not continue to reference what you see as the film's faults to try to win your arguments, when here we are really talking about what is implied in the book.) Sauron would surely not send birds from the fiery regions of Mordor.

So, if Saruman knows almost precisely where the Fellowship is, the section I quoted a few posts back would seem to me to imply Saruman. Certainly more likely IMHO than Sauron.

Tolkien clearly refers to the weather appearing to be at the command of "some power". I agree it is not stated explicitly, but the evidence in my opinion points to Saruman.

So, going back to the film, what they have portrayed is a scene (Saruman summoning up the storm) not actually described in the book, but clearly implied. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Mordor orcs in Moria? What makes you say there were Mordor Orcs in Moria?

[Greenwood]

Quote by Grond
Actually, the clear implication in the book is that Gandalf, at the least, felt the storm was a direct result of Sauron and not Saruman. I quote from FotR, The Ring Goes South,
"'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf."
This is a clear statement by Gandalf as to who caused the storm and his name isn't Saruman.

It should also be noted that Uruk-hai is accepted by both Aragil and Greenwood to refer exclusively to Saruman's greater-orcs. Some of us remain unconvinced or uncertain.


Grond

You are right that the above indicates that "Gandalf, at the least, felt the storm was a direct result of Sauron and not Saruman", but the above is not the only thing said in the book. A few paragraphs after the above the Fellowship halts when they hear strange noises about them like "shrill cries, and wild howls of laughter" and stones "began to fall from the mountain-side". Boromisr says: "Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on their air; [said by Legolas in the film] and those stones are aimed at us." Aragorn replies: "I do call it the wind. .... But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on tow legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he." Gimli says: "Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had a ill name long years ago, when rumour of Suaron had not been heard in these lands." After spending the night huddled together on the mountain unable to move on, dawn arrives under threatening skies Gimli says: "Caradhras has not forgiven us. He has more snow yet to fling at us, if we go on. ....." Later, when Legolas reports that Aragorn and Boromir were almost stopped by a huge drift of snow blocking their retreat but that immediately beyond the snow almost disappears, Gimli says: "Ah, it is as I said. It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape." Then as they get past the last snow drift an avalanche falls behind them and completely blocks the path up the mountain. " 'Enough. enough!' cried Gimli. 'We are departing as quickly as we may!' And indeed with that last stroke the malice of the mountain seemed to be expended, as if Caradhras was satisified that the invaders had been beaten off and would not dare to return. The threat of snow lifted; the clouds began to break and the light grew broader." Finally the last paragraph of the chapter is: "A cold wind flowed down behind them, as they turned their backs on the Redhorn Gate, and stumbled wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them."

Thus the main thrust of the book is that it was the mountain itself that caused the storm and forced them back. Considering Gandalf's statement in addition to all of the above I said the book left the issue of who caused the storm unresolved. You are absolutely right, however, if you say that Saruman is not mentioned as a possible cause of the storm. My earlier post had the implication that Saruman was included in the book as a possible cause of the storm and this is indeed incorrect. :( My apologies.

As to your second comment, I never meant to imply that everyone accepted what Aragil and I have said about the Uruk-hai on the other thread. In his post Ged apologized for possibly mis-stating my position. I merely said no apologies were necessary and clearly stated what my position was. :)

[Bombadillodillo]

Grond wrote:
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf."
This is a clear statement by Gandalf as to who caused the storm and his name isn't Saruman.


I think those are right who argue that there is ambiguity (completely lost in the movie) about who caused the storm, and that in the end it could be one of several powers or several powers working together. However, I would sooner rule out Sauron than Saruman, or I should say this: I think what Gandalf is saying is that Saruman is the long arm of Sauron. Sauron is much to far from Caradhras to have any direct power over it. The cause of the storm is one or a combination of the following: Caradhras, Saruman, or the Balrog (who is perhaps the cause of Caradhras' cruelty): There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own.


I tend to think that it is the ill will of the mountain itself, perhaps prompted by Saruman who has succumb to the shadow of Sauron.

However, if the evil of the mountain is caused by the Balrog, then indeed the company has fallen into a trap by going into Moria. For the Balrog awaits them, which seems to be somewhat confirmed by the action of the Watcher (as its name indicates-- although I grant that it was given the name by the company) as well as the fact that there was a trap set for them on the other side of Moria, and it is unlikely that such a trap was set in the short time of a few hours, although this could have been a trap set for the dwarfs long ago -- and come to think of it, the watcher itself was set there long ago against the dwarfs' escape, as Balin's journal attests to. Nevertheless, it is possible that the Balrog is the cause of the cruelty of Caradhras, and that the Balrog sought the ring himself. Though this is really mere speculation.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ged
...Mordor orcs in Moria? What makes you say there were Mordor Orcs in Moria? From the FotR, The Bridge of Khazad-dum, Boromir speaks, "...There are Orcs, very many of them, and some are large and evil; black uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are..." Being from Gondor, I would expect Boromir knew a Mordor Orc when he saw one.... but I could be wrong.;)

[Greenwood]

Grond

Actually the line you cite was Gandalf's, but your argument is still valid, if not stronger. Surely Gandalf knows his orcs. :)

[Grond]

Oops!! Read and posted the quote and then quoted the wrong guy. At least the quote is accurate and Gandalf might know a thing or two about Mordor Orcs also.:)

[Jai]

Originally posted by Ged
Sauron may well have known or guessed that the Fellowship were heading south, west of the Misty Mountains, though if he had any real idea surely he would have sent the Winged Nazgul to search for them. As far as I am aware, the Nazgul don't cross the river Anduin until later.


I was just reading the part where the Fellowship tries to cross Caradhras tonight, and came across something I had forgotten - or may have not realized the importance of before. It's just before the company starts up to the Redhorn Gate, when the weather is threatening, but it hasn't started snowing yet.

"It was the cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.

'Did you see anything pass over?' he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead.

'No, but I felt it, whatever it was,' he answered. 'It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.'

'It was moving fast then,' muttered Aragorn, 'and not with the wind.'"

Wasn't this a Nazgul? BEFORE they tried crossing Caradhras. Perhaps it was Sauron, after all.....

[Grond]

Jai, I feel the same thing when I read the book. It flies in the face of most Tolkien scholars assertion that the Nazgul didn't come West of the Anduin until much later in the Spring.

[Greenwood]

Originally posted by Grond
Jai, I feel the same thing when I read the book. It flies in the face of most Tolkien scholars assertion that the Nazgul didn't come West of the Anduin until much later in the Spring.

I agree with both Jai and Grond that it is hard to see how this could refer to anything but a Nazgul.

As for "It flies in the face of most Tolkien scholars assertion", I am shocked, shocked I say, at the possibility that "Tolkien scholars" could be wrong and mere readers could be right. ;) :)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Greenwood
I agree with both Jai and Grond that it is hard to see how this could refer to anything but a Nazgul.

As for "It flies in the face of most Tolkien scholars assertion", I am shocked, shocked I say, at the possibility that "Tolkien scholars" could be wrong and mere readers could be right. ;) :) Ahhhhh Greenwood, actually I meant me. I was just too lazy to look up any more ***stuff*** tonight... but you have forced me to find one. (There are many.) In TT, The Palantiri, Gandalf says,
"Nazgul! The messenger of Mordor. The storm is coming. The Nazgul have crossed the River! Ride, ride! Wait not for the dawn! Let not the swift wait for the slow! Ride!"

That doesn't mean my initial reaction wasn't one of a mounted Ringwraith at the Pass. It's just contradicted later in the book by the author. I will find more quotes tomorrow. Bed beckons.:)

[Ged]

I accept all that has been said on the issue of who sent the storm, and agree that it is somewhat ambiguous with some evidence pointing towards Sauron. Sauron, certainly, would have had the power presumably. However, I still feel there is circumstantial evidence pointing towards Saruman too.

1) If Sauron knew their location sufficiently accurately to send the storm to Caradhras, why would he not have sent the 9 Nazgul to track them and possibly attempt to capture the ringbearer?

2) I read Saruman sending the storm NOT to force them through Moria (as implied in the film) but to keep them heading southwards and west of the Misty Mountains; i.e. down towards the Gap of Rohan and Isengard. The purpose of Saruman would not be to kill them, or at least not all of them, on the contrary he is after the ring.

3) Why would Sauron want to prevent them from crossing Caradhras? It could be that he wanted them to try to go through Moria, although the thought of the ring being taken up by the Balrog may not have exactly appealed. (Interesting further point for discussion: could the Balrog have used the ring him/herself?) But other than that, it would suit Sauron more to have them on the east of the Mountains surely? Particularly if he wishes to keep ring out of Saruman's hands.

[Ged]

Further to point 3) above, Sauron does not realise that the Fellowship are heading to Mordor. He only realises this when it is far too late. He assumes (I think) they are going to Minas Tirith.

If that is the case, and suspecting Saruman's motives clearly enough through the Palantir, surely he would have prefered them on the east side of the Misty Mountains? Though they would pass through Lothlorien, he would have had ample time to track them down the Anduin and waylay them at some point.

The fact that none of this happens illustrates to me that at this stage of the story Saruman knows a lot more about the location of the Fellowship than does Sauron. And I think the general tone of TTT supports this.

If this is the case (sorry to repeat myself) how could Sauron have known their location accurately enough to have sent the storm to Caradhras?

[Harad]

Ged:

1. Sauron's Nazgul had been unhorsed before Rivendell on Oct 20 and did not cross the Anduin until near Mar 2 (arguably).

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302&pagenumber=4

So they would not have been a resource for Sauron in the Moria period.

2. I agree that Saruman would try to divert them to the Gap

3. My guess was that Caradhras in the book was an independent malevolent spirit--not Sauron.

I have problems however with the conclusion that Sauron knows less than Saruman. In fact it appears that Saruman learns nearly everthing he knows about the Fellowship from Sauron via Palantir, since Saruman was left off the CoE mailing list after his little indiscretion with Gandalf.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

My big problem is why were Saruman's forces dominant at Parth Galen, when that was more in Sauron's sphere of influence?

[Ged]

Harad,

Thanks for the post. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me!

Nazgul: you cannot use the fact that they did not cross the Anduin until March 2nd (if that is the date) as evidence that Sauron could not have used them against the Fellowship in this period. It could be that Sauron did not know exactly where the Fellowship where. If that is the case, then my argument about Saruman causing the storm is largely made.

I'm not sure about a mountain having a "spirit". I know this is how it comes across to some extent in the book, but I still think it more true that one or other of the dark animated powers (Sauron, Saruman) caused it.

Saruman knowing more than Sauron: Well, I go back to my earlier point, if Sauron HAD known that the Company were at the foot of Caradhras, why would he not have sent the Nazgul to seek them out?

Also, the question remains that nobody has yet answered: Why would Sauron try to prevent them crossing the Pass of Caradhras?

[Snaga]

Surely shorely shirley we can't be going to have ANOTHER thread on this subject!!

Also, the question remains that nobody has yet answered: Why would Sauron try to prevent them crossing the Pass of Caradhras? Ged I think there is a simple answer to this, and perhaps some more devious ones.

At its most basic, Sauron wouldn't want the Ringbearer to have a nice easy journey to Minas Tirith. He has plans to lay, armies to gather. He thinks the ring is going to MT, and he doesn't want it their quickly. Any delay is good.

More deviously you could suggest that:
(1) He corrals them off the mountain and right into a pack of Wargs that launch an attack
(2) That he wants to divert them to Moria, where he has laid a trap
(3) That he would prefer them to go to the Gap because his ally the silver-tongued Saruman, can give them a kicking. Perhaps he thinks Saruman is loyal? Its hard to be precise about the level of trust Sauron has in Saruman. We should be careful about assuming that because we know Saruman's not loyal, that Sauron does too. At some point he rumbles him, but perhaps not yet.

[Ged]

VoK:
Apologies if you have discussed this before.

My question remains unanswered: Why would Sauron have wanted to prevent the Fellowship from passing the Pass of Caradhras?

If he "trusted" Saruman then I agree he might have let the Company continue south, but this is arguable. He is not the sort to "trust" anyone. Certainly not Saruman, having communicated with him through the seeing stones.

Do you really suggest that Sauron, who through many long years has schemed and fought to get his Ring back, would have even considered letting it fall within reach of a Wizard such as Saruman?

[Ged]

VoK,
Further, you suggest that Sauron is trying to delay the approach of the ring to MT because he has armies to prepare. That is ridiculous. He has spent hundreds of years preparing his armies. So he closes the Pass of Caradhras to give him more time to prepare his armies? !!!

Laying a trap in Moria: Yes this could be true, if there was any evidence that Sauron at that point in time knew that the Company were there. And if he could trust the Balrog to hand over the ring afterwards. But again: wouldn't he have sent the Nazgul after them first? And as for Moria Orcs (if any were there): How did he get the message to them if he did not know exactly where the Fellowship were?

[Harad]

you cannot use the fact that they did not cross the Anduin until March 2nd (if that is the date) as evidence that Sauron could not have used them against the Fellowship in this period.

I am lost as to the reasoning here. If Sauron never sends the Nazgul West of the Anduin between Oct 20 and Mar 2, how is he to use them against the Fellowship who are continually West of the Anduin from Oct 20 until just before March 2. Long distance terror?

As far the comment about Sauron delaying the Fellowship: Sauron WAS preparing for War, but had not yet completed his preparations (I agree with VofK)...thus Aragorn stampeded him into an early launch of the WitchKing Army with his Palantir challenge. Further, Sauron would benefit by dumping a landslide on the Fellowship, killing its members and "losing" the Ring again. That would have been better than having the Ring delivered to Lorien or Gondor, for examples, and having those dangerous enemies still alive.

Everybody has got to leave the Nazgul out of the equation from Oct 20 to about Mar 2, IMO. Otherwise refute the brilliant Grishnakh and show unambiguous evidence that the Nazgul were on the relevant side of the river during this period.

(It would be nice to consolidate all similar discussions...it usually doesnt happen tho. Why this is in the movie forum probably has a good reason up above..)

[Snaga]

Further, you suggest that Sauron is trying to delay the approach of the ring to MT because he has armies to prepare. That is ridiculous. He has spent hundreds of years preparing his armies. So he closes the Pass of Caradhras to give him more time to prepare his armies? !!!

Ged are you trying to get a rise out of me?? OK you disagree, but try to chill out about how you put it. Thanks.

Now, I'll excuse the hyperbole about Sauron preparing his armies for hundreds of years, because as I'm sure you know Sauron only returned to Mordor from Dol Guldur slightly less than 80 years prior to LotR.

But, if he needs no more time, why then does Aragorn choose to look into the Palantir. In part it is to mislead Sauron and make him think that he, Aragorn, is wielding the ring. But also he makes some statement such as 'the hasty stroke oft goes astray' - in other words he is trying to get Sauron to attack before all his pieces are in place.

Furthermore, throughout the story Gandalf is anxious to make good progress. He rules out going to the south of the White Mountains because it would take too long. Both sides know things are coming to a head, and are moving their pieces apace whilst harrying the plans and preparation of their opponents.

Not proof at all that delay is Sauron's motivation for the storm, of course. There is no proof about what/who the origin of the storm is, less still their motivation. But it is certain Sauron doesn't want the ring to quickly get to Minas Tirith.

[Ged]

Harad,

In my opinion he didn't send the Nazgul across the Anduin at that time because he didn't know the Company's exact location. That is my interpretation.

[Ged]

VoG:
The fact that I might occasionally use a couple of apostrophies doesn't mean that I am being unpleasant. I am trying to make a case for Saruman having been the main originator of the storm on Cardhras. That is all.

[Harad]

Ged:

1. He knew they were West of the River. The last location was Rivendell--the returned spririts of the Nazgul would tell him that.

2. The Nazgul were his most mobile and sophisticated recon tool--why not send them to pick up the trail?, except that:

a. they were not remounted immediately after Oct 20
b. they had bigger jobs to do--launch war, although this was arguably ANOTHER bad decision by SAURON, since the Ring was his Achilles finger.

As far as Saruman launching the storm...it works well in the movie and is not contradictable in the book.

[Ged]

VoG:
The fact that Sauron only relocated to Mordor 80 years before is irrelevant. He began the building of Barad-Dur in SA 1000. In the third age he inhabited Dol Guldor for at least 500 years before the War of the Ring.

We all have access to the appendices. I'm not sure what this has got to do with whether or not Saruman caused the storm on Caradhras.

[Harad]

If the general question is "Who benefits most by stopping the Fellowship at Caradhras?" then its a tossup:

1. Sauron would want to stop them, to interfere with their plans whatever they were, or to kill the members of the Fellowship. Sauron was not completely prepared to launch War, so delay was in his favor.

2. Saruman would want to stop them, for the reasons above, and to force them back into his zone of influence.

3. The mountain spirit would want to stop them out of pure cussedness.

The only one that would have definite knowledge that they were at Caradhras would be #3.

how about?

4. The balrog--who was working in cahoots with the mountain spirit to chase the fellowship into Moria.

[Ged]

VoG
I fail to see how Aragorn challenging Sauron in the Palantir, thus encouraging Sauron to throw forwards his armies immediately, before they perhaps might have been fully prepared, can have anything to do with whether or not Sauron caused the storm at Caradhras (which is what the last few comments have been about.)

Sauron clearly is uncertain. When Aragorn challenges him in the Palantir he lets forth his forces precipitively. This only underscores his real relative lack of knowledge of the movements of the Company.

[Ged]

I think I have put forward a reasonably cogent argument for Saruman having caused the storm at Cardhras. But I fully accept that it is open to interpretation.

I'm sorry if that subject has seemingly taken over this thread.

[Grond]

Ged, I say this not to question your voracity in defending the subject but to try and discern what exactly is the evidence of which you speak. You also speak of a reasonably cogent argument for Saruman having caused the storm at Cardhras. The only potential real evidence you have presented is that Saruman may have known where the Fellowship was headed because of the Crebain. This despite the fact that the author never reveals whether the crebain saw the Fellowship or not. That's it. You are basing your assertion entirely on that. Otherwise, you would be throwing one quote after another to back up your assertion. The quotes are not there.

Gandalf's quote on this issue is crystal clear. He thought Sauron was behind the storm. (That doesn't mean he was right.) Sauron would have a very good reason (make that two very good reasons) for wanting the Fellowship to go through Moria. They are Mordor Orcs and the Balrog.

The only logical conclusions are that it was Sauron or it was the mountain itself. I'm open to more arguments Ged, as soon as you present something based on evidence and not speculation.

[Harad]

Gandalf does not say Sauron is responsible for Caradhras.

Boromir: "I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy..."
Gimli: "His arm has grown long indeed, if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us 300 hundred leagues away."
Gandalf:" His arm has grown long."

This is a plausibilty statement by Gandalf, not a conclusion. Later:

Gimli: "Caradhras was called The Cruel...long years ago, when rumour of Sauron has not been heard in these lands."
Gandalf:"It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack."

This IMO is an admission by Gandalf that he is not sure who is behind the snow.

Ged's argument is likewise a "plausibility" argument for Saruman and as such is acceptable. It is by no means a proof. It does give backing for PJs interpretation in the movie.

[Ged]

Grond,
For the past dozen or so posts I think I have made it quite clear that I have only provided circumstantial evidence on behalf of Saruman causing the storm. I'm not sure that at any point I have said there is proof of even direct evidence of it.

Sorry, can we not discuss opinions based on circumstantial evidence?

I started this with a quote illustrating that "some power" caused the storm. I took this to mean Sauron or Saruman. I'm not ruling out Caradhras itself Harad, it just seems to me more likely to have been due to an animated power.

Given there is no direct proof either way, I tried to examine the motivations of these two characters. I tried to show why it wouild be in Saruman's interest to block the pass, then went on to show reasons why it may not have been so for Sauron. My aim was to demonstrate that if Sauron had no interest in blocking the Pass then what is left (i.e. Saruman) is likely to be true. This is a reasonably sensible way to progress this sort of issue.

In this respect, some of the questions I tried to ask haven't really been answered (by me or anybody else). For example:

If Sauron knew the location of the Fellowship sufficiently accurately to send the storm to Caradhras, why would he not have sent the 9 Nazgul to track them and possibly attempt to capture the ringbearer?

Wouldn't Sauron perhaps PREFER the Company on the east side of the river, away from Saruman's clutches?

These are reasonable questions which haven't really been addressed.

By the way, Grond, I can't help finding your tone extremely patronising. It takes away some of the enjoyment of visiting the site.

[Snaga]

Ged you post too often to keep up with!!:)

Now now everyone lets keep the tone friendly if that's OK. I don't like my posts described as 'ridiculous', Ged doesn't like being patronised... We've seen where this leads so lets nip it in the bud and be nice OK?

If I can summarise so far: there are three (main) possible culprits for the storm. Sauron, Saruman or the mountain itself. The book does not ever resolve the question, so we are looking for motives.

Possible motive for the mountain: Caradhras is just a bad-ass mountain, and loves to harrass anyone and everyone.

Possible motive for Saruman: cause the fellowship to head south to within easier reach of Isengard.

Possible motives for Sauron:
1. Delay the rings progress south
2. Steer them into Moria
3. Steer them south to Isengard

The debate amounts to Ged wanting to rule out Sauron.

I've tried twice to explain motive 1. The third time pays for all as Bilbo's dad would say... Sauron is preparing to attack Minas Tirith, as the key battle in the War. He has not yet struck, because he is not ready. The knows that the Ring has been found, and has confirmed that it reached Rivendell. If a powerful Ring-Lord gets to Minas Tirith before he can launch his attack, it will damage his chances. If he cannot recapture the ring himself, delay is good.

Motive 2 is fairly self-explanatory. It is hard to discern the extent of co-operation between Sauron and the Balrog, but there are Mordor orcs in Moria, that recently arrived. Looks like a trap to me. If he's expecting them to go via the Red Horn Pass, he'd post them in Dimrill Dale, to get them when they descend.

Motive 3 you don't like; and I don't look very favourably on it. But I would love to see some proof - i.e. quotes from the book - that prove that Sauron knew Saruman wasn't loyal, and from what point. Sauron clearly rumbles that Saruman is disloyal, and I'd say by the start of TTT (quotes from Grishnakh are available). But if anyone can show that it is earlier, I'd be really interested. As I said previously, we have to be careful about assuming that Sauron knew things all along that we have privileged access to as readers. My hypothesis is that Saruman, having a convincing voice, could have tricked Sauron and convinced him that he was a loyal subject. If so, they could have been co-operating in the hunt for the ring at this stage. The argument against amounts to: Saruman is a snake and noone would trust him. But Sauron continually relies on fear to dominate otherwise untrustworthy servants - orcs being the most obvious example. If this is his MO, then why not use it with Saruman? Yes its a mistake, but Sauron makes many mistakes. He proves a bad judge of character.

Anyway I've digressed a bit on the last theme because to me its more interesting than debating a question which the evidence is not available to answer!:)

[Harad]

I have tried to answer Ged's questions. I'll try again:

If Sauron knew the location of the Fellowship sufficiently accurately to send the storm to Caradhras, why would he not have sent the 9 Nazgul to track them and possibly attempt to capture the ringbearer?

This question ignores the fact that Sauron did not send the Nazgul West of Anduin for ANY purpose. The Nazgul failed in their attempt to get the RingBearer in the Shire, surely a simpler task and were unhorsed. If they were such a good tool for finding and getting the Ring, then Sauron should have sent them West regardless of whether he knew the Ring's exact location after it arrived at Rivendell. In fact, he did not send them West for any reason until about March 2. The Caradhras incident is not crucial one way or the other to Sauron's decision to withhold the Nazgul, either because they were not prepared to go West (no mounts, or spritual recovery from the Fords) or he had other tasks for them.

Wouldn't Sauron perhaps PREFER the Company on the east side of the river, away from Saruman's clutches?

The answer to this is "maybe." But there is an inconsistency with this position. Sauron should prefer sending the Fellowship thru Moria since it was populated with his Orcs and his possible ally in Evil, the Balrog--the Balrog was cooperating with the Moria Orcs, who in turn were supposed to be creatures of Sauron. Sauron also might distrust Saruman enuf to want the Ring going in another direction--thru Moria and East of the mountains. However, this doesnt explain why Sauron kept Saruman informed of the whereabouts of the Ring--Sauron knew and had the opportunities to know, especially after Rivendell and Moria, more so than Saruman. This is evident because of the inescapable conclusion that Sauron ordered Saruman to send Saruman's troops to Parth Galen, in effect giving Merry and Pippen (and almost the Ring) to Saruman. See:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=47019#post47019

[Ged]

VoK: I agree, let's keep everything friendly. Was just about to defend my use of the word "ridiculous" as a UK/US misunderstanding, when I noticed you're from England!

Anyway...

I can't present any proof that Sauron wouldn't have trusted Saruman to get the ring, then at a later stage hand it over to him. Somehow though it just doesn't ring (sic) true. For a start, Sauron and Saruman are of similar lineage: they must go back an awful long way. Sauron knows only too well that if Saruman DID claim the ring, he might well have the power to use it. Also, do you see Sauron as "trustful"? Sorry, but I don't.

Harad:
Re: Nazgul not attacking Company on Anduin. We're having "fun" discussing this on your thread "Saruman's Military Strategy", so I won't comment further.

[Harad]

On the restricted point of Sauron "trusting" Saruman. I dont think "trust" is in the Evil dictionary. For example, Sauron did not trust the Nazgul, he "knew" them to be slaves to his will. Could he delude himself so much, or could Saruman delude Sauron so much, that Sauron believed that Saruman was also a slave to his will? I dont think so. Sauron, best of most anybody on ME, knew what Saruman was, and that he represented a very real threat to his power should Saruman be given any opportunity. Saruman already was a known traitor to one side. Sauron might even fear Saruman's obtaining the Ring more than anybody else since Saruman was in a better position to wield an Evil weapon than anyone else.

[Thorin]

If Sauron knew where the fellowship was to bring down a storm on top of them, I highly doubt Frodo could have gotten even near to Mordor with the ring, never mind Mount Doom to destroy it....Does this argument seem to evade those of you who think that Sauron was responsible for Caradhras???

It is stretching it enough to make Saruman responsible for the storm, never mind Sauron....

The facts given to me, despite Gandalf's plausible statement (as Harad pointed out) about Sauron's arm growing long, all references to the storm and it's problems are addressed directly to Caradhras..

The quote "Caradhras is not finished throwing snow at us yet."
It is called Caradhras the Cruel for a good reason, and Gimli shook his fist at Caradhras when they went off the mountain...I think it even mentions somewhere that Caradhras defeated them.

Trying to make Saruman or Sauron responsible is total speculation and the more you base your arguments on speculation, the further from the truth you get and the more senseless the arguments....It was the mountain, pure and simple....Don't let the movie interpret your understanding of the book....

If you think I am wrong, ask yourself this...Did all of you think that Saruman was responsible for the storm when you first read it BEFORE the movie came out?

[Ged]

Harad,
I completely agree with you. Sauron would under no circumstances have allowed Saruman to get hold of the ring.

[Ged]

Thorin,

It all depends upon whether you think that a mountain itself could have precipated the storm. If you think so, then okay.

If you think otherwise (and it is not made clear in the book), then the only other possible alternative is that an animated dark power (presumably Sauron or Saruman) caused it.

My view is that Saruman caused it, though I can't prove it.

[Mormegil]

I must say that when I read the book, before the movie came out, I always felt that it was Caradhras itself that caused the storm, for exactly the reasons Thorin states above.

However, reading this thread has made me think about it in detail.
Allthough no-one can prove what caused the storm, you all provide plausible evidence for your views based on circumstantial evidence and the balance of probability.
I will stick to my opinion that Caradhras caused the storm, but I can understand Ged's view that Saruman caused the storm to bring the Ring nearer to The Gap of Rohan. VofK presents plausible arguments as to why Sauron might have created the storm, which I also understand.
So there are plausible arguments for Caradhras, Saruman, and Sauron.
PJ just decided to chose Saruman, perhaps to emphasise his evilness.

Anyway, we can debate this point all we want, but seeing as no-one can prove it either way we will just go round in circles. It's one of those unknown things that everybody will have their own opinion about.

Just my view on the subject.

[Thorin]

I think that making Caradhras impassable was a literary move on Tolkien's part...I think the fellowship was intended to go through Moria from the start...Gandalf and Aragorn's mention of it before they even attempt Caradhras was obvious foreshadowing of what was to come and it made the reader sit up and take notice about just how ominous Moria was...Then the fellowship cannot cross the mountain and the reader has been nicely set up to discover just what exactly it is that has Aragorn and Gandalf frightened...Now JRR has them hooked...

I think that the movie has opened the door to speculation but I think one needs to step back recognize just what the whole episode really was....A great literary move from a great writer who knows how to capture his audience....Let's not get carried away because the movie has given us an alternate view that truly was "director's interpretation" rather then thinking that JRR truly intended it that way.

[Thrakerzog]

Thorin,
It was the mountain, pure and simple
I wish everything were this black and white Thorin, but things are not that simple.

"It is called Caradhras the Cruel for a good reason, and Gimli shook his fist at Caradhras when they went off the mountain...I think it even mentions somewhere that Caradhras defeated them."

Just because a mountain has bad weather a lot does not mean it has a will of it's own to stop the party.
Ever heard of Death Valley? It's not named that because everyone that goes there immediately dies. It's called that because it's a very difficult place to survive, just like Caradhras. There is no intelligence there acting against travelers.

Now we move on to passages from the actual book itself:
"shrill cries, and wild howls of laughter" and stones "began to fall from the mountain-side". Boromir says: "Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on their air; and those stones are aimed at us."

This is a clear indication by Tolkien that the storm was directed specifically at the party to turn them back by throwing stones and a heavy storm at them.

"That day the weather changed again, almost as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a clear light in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from far away."

This is again Tolkien showing us that there is a force specifically acting against the party, this time clearing the skies so that this force can once again find the party and know their plans.

"It was the mountain, pure and simple" is wrong, pure and simple. I will give that it COULD have been the mountain, because it was not clearly stated, but it is impossible to discount the other possibilities as you have so briskly done. As well, Tolkien clearly leads us to believe it was some animated power, making me, and most others, believe it was either Sauron or Sarumon.

making Caradhras impassable was a literary move on Tolkien's part
I agree, Tolkien did plan on having the party go through Moria. That's a major element he didn't just throw in there.
But I don't think Tolkien just sent the party up the mountain to have them beaten by a storm and turn around.
I think he sent them up there to show the extent of the powers of the enemy they where facing. The entire mountain pass, to me, shows that the dark forces at work against the party are far more dangerous then a bunch of orcs and wargs or a few dark riders. To show the enemy has powers over the weather and eye's that watch all routes.
This was his literary method of building the danger imposed by Sauron and Sarumon, it was not simply a little side story where they walk up a hill, it snows, they walk back down the hill.

"If you think I am wrong, ask yourself this...Did all of you think that Saruman was responsible for the storm when you first read it BEFORE the movie came out?"
Many people have already said they felt it was Sauron or Sarumon before seeing the movie. This is simply your interpretation, and you can feel that way, but don't state it as fact, which you are trying to do.
It clearly is not fact.

[Tar-Palantir]

Myself, I always thought it was Sauron who whistled up the storm - the "his arm has grown long" thing. Of course, Gimli thinks it was the mountain itself, but has anyone else noticed that Gimli is wrong in just about everything he says throughout the whole story? , i.e. men will "come to naught in the end", the "S" on the Orc shields standing for Sauron.....

I think that a previous poster (sorry, I can't remember who it was) had an interesting theory about the Balrog being the spirit of the mountain. I had never thought of it that way before, but I think he/she may be onto something.

[Harad]

how about?

4. The balrog--who was working in cahoots with the mountain spirit to chase the fellowship into Moria.

I suppose you could say "as the mountain spirit" but I get the impression that the mountain pre-dated the Balrog--makes sense on geological grounds.

[Thorin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thrakerzog
"shrill cries, and wild howls of laughter" and stones "began to fall from the mountain-side". Boromir says: "Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on their air; and those stones are aimed at us."

This is a clear indication by Tolkien that the storm was directed specifically at the party to turn them back by throwing stones and a heavy storm at them.

"That day the weather changed again, almost as if it was at the command of some power that had no longer any use for snow, since they had retreated from the pass, a power that wished now to have a clear light in which things that moved in the wild could be seen from far away."

This is again Tolkien showing us that there is a force specifically acting against the party, this time clearing the skies so that this force can once again find the party and know their plans.

To me, I see your quotes above as personification on Tolkien's part. He uses much of it on inanimate objects. The Old Forest, Fangorn and Lorien are prime examples. The fact is, is that ME is a very mysterious place that does not seem to follow the natural laws as the world as we know it. Gandalf stated that there were many things that hated creatures that walked on two legs that were not in league with Sauron and were older then he...Why is that such a problem to think that there were creatures on the mountain that caused the "howls" and "laughter" and caused stones to be thrown down? You seemed to forget the words in the second quote "it was almost as if" which is far from conclusive...Either way, the quote does not have to explain either Saruman or Sauron but the powers of ME that were unexplainable. And keep in mind that just because a character thinks something is a certain way, that doesn't mean that it is true. Tolkien has many of his characters believing false things. Considering the ignorance of Boromir concerning Lorien, Rivendell and other areas, I wouldn't take his opinions as gospel concerning what was causing the problems. He didn't even specify what was causing them..How can that be used as evidence that Saruman or Sauron was behind it? The fact is, is that there is no reference to Saruman being the cause of the storm. The movie has influenced people to think that this could be a possibility, but there is more evidence that it was the mountain and the strange powers of ME that were at work. Tolkien was trying to prove that exact thing. To show that there were strange unexplainable powers that exist in ME, and to close a viable avenue for the fellowship to take, forcing them to choose Moria.

As I've reiterated before, for Sauron to have brought on the storm implies that he knew where the Fellowship was...If he could track the fellowship from that far away as his "arm has grown long", then there is no way that Frodo and Sam could have even gotten near Orodruin where Sauron's power was almost unbearable for Frodo to face with the ring.

[Harad]

I agree with Thorin. I think that neither S-boys knew precisely where the party was--even after Gandalf says something to the effect, "This is a calling card that Gandalf the Grey was here," it is just a possibility--he doesnt mean that he has in fact been revealed. This also is contrary to the idea that the Palantiri in the hands of the S-boys were omni-visual.

Later of course when I still dont believe that Saruman knew where the party was, and dont believe that Sauron had any good reason to tell Saruman to go to Parth Galen, is where the disagreement will resume.

[Thrakerzog]

Throin,
Obviously you have missed completely what point I made.

To me, I see your quotes above as personification on Tolkien's part.

"To me," Exactly my point.

The fact is, is that ME is a very mysterious place that does not seem to follow the natural laws as the world as we know it.

Excactly my point, certainly given this, S or S could have had the power to cause the storm.

Why is that such a problem to think that there were creatures on the mountain that caused the "howls" and "laughter" and caused stones to be thrown down? You seemed to forget the words in the second quote "it was almost as if" which is far from conclusive

Exactly my point, it is FAR from conclusive on all options. By the way, please don't make up monsters to support your argument, it doesn't help, it only confuses the issue. Had there been monsters, I am positive Tolkien would have mentioned them somewhere at some point.

And keep in mind that just because a character thinks something is a certain way, that doesn't mean that it is true......

Exactly my point, Gimli COULD be very wrong.

The fact is, is that there is no reference to Saruman being the cause of the storm.

There's that word again. FACT is, as Ged has shown, while there is no direct indication, given the Carbrian, it is very POSSIBLE Sarumon is linked. And that makes him as likely a candidate as any.

but there is more evidence that it was the mountain and the strange powers of ME that were at work.

I do not agree there is more eveidence one way or the other. I think there is an equal ammount for all possibilities.

Tolkien was trying to prove that exact thing. To show that there were strange unexplainable powers that exist in ME, and to close a viable avenue for the fellowship to take, forcing them to choose Moria.

Here you are communing with the dead again, stop that. It doesn't make your argument more valid.
I personally feel Tolkien was trying to use the mountain pass as a show of the powers that the enemy had. I don't think he just had them trek up the mountain, have a storm, have them leave, just to show that ME can be hard going sometimes. To me, that doesn't fit in with everything else Tolkein did in the books. But that is my OPINION.

As I've reiterated before, for Sauron to have brought on the storm implies that he knew where the Fellowship was...If he could track the fellowship from that far away as his "arm has grown long", then there is no way that Frodo and Sam could have even gotten near Orodruin where Sauron's power was almost unbearable for Frodo to face with the ring.

Maybe he had the dark riders watching for the party at the pass. Certainly the riders would not even attempt to attack the party, given that Aragorn, Legalos, Gimli, Boromir and GANDALF are all there to deal with - such an attack would be pointless. To attack the party now would be insanity for the riders as the party is at it's strongest by a large messure.

As has been mentioned, there where Mordor orcs in Moria. Maybe Sauron wanted to force the party to go that way.

Again, this is just another possibility.

By the way, the point of my other post was to show, which I have done if you belive it or not, that it is not the mountains, pure and simple. It could certainly be the mountains, but it is in NO WAY a done deal. And for me, the mountains would be my last choice of the three.

[Grond]

If Saruman caused the storm that closed the Pass, why on Earth didn't Gandalf just fire up his staff and push it away? The movie makes Saruman appear "far, far" superior to Gandalf and that was not how the characters were portrayed in the book. Saruman was the Senior of the Order but only marginally stronger than Gandalf. And I'm not sure that either Sauron's or Saruman's training with Aule would have given them any weather control. One would think that Gandalf/Olorin, being a Maia of Manwe, would have much greater power over the heavens since that is Manwe's domain.

My conlusion is that the storm was caused by chance as neither Saruman nor Sauron had the necessary power to alter weather. So it would not have mattered if they knew where the fellowship was or not.

[Harad]

I personally feel Tolkien was trying to use the mountain pass as a show of the powers that the enemy had. I don't think he just had them trek up the mountain, have a storm, have them leave, just to show that ME can be hard going sometimes. To me, that doesn't fit in with everything else Tolkein did in the books. But that is my OPINION.

I think that the books are complex. For example both the Balrog and Shelob are definitely Evil but not clearly under the control of Sauron. The ambiguity in the text about Caradhras does leave the origin of the storm open to interpretation. But I dont think there is any let down or pointlessness to believe that an independent Mountain spirit is also harrassing the Fellowship. Just as they unexpectedly get help from unknown quarters--e.g. the Ents--they also get trouble from unknown quarter--Caradhras. This is part of the wealth of LOTR.

Further, I believe that both S-boys had a great deal of difficulty figuring where the Fellowship was most of the time, therefore, making it difficult for them to pinpoint a storm on Caradhras to coincide with the Fellowships attempted passage.

[Thrakerzog]

Harad,
I agree 100% with what you said. There is a good possibility it might have been the storm. But thats not why I posted originally to this thread.

Thorin had stated this:
It was the mountain, pure and simple...

As though he had some deeper knowledge. He does not. He should not state his opinion as fact, pure and simple.

All of this is open to debate, simply stating your belief as fact does not make it so without compelling evidence. Thorin has not provided compelling evidence.

Even you are cautious with your words as shown by your use of "I believe" instead of "I am positive" as the "pure and simple" quote does.

Now, on to your debate.
I do agree that Tolkiens are complex, but I don't know of any other instance where he has hidden, unmentioned forces at work.
With the ents, you knew it was the ents.
With Balrog and Shelob, both were given a definate form, a definate that they were an evil force.
With the storm, all we get really is Gimli's opinion. Alas, Gimli is a constant source of wrong information as pointed out prior (as pointed out by Tar-Palantir).

I honestly think if it where the mountains that turned them back, Tolkien would have played that aspect up more. Currently the only sorce is a dwarf tale about how brutal the mountains are. And as I have pointed out, we have such places here as well, such as Death Valley.

Grond,
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I would say in a place such as Caradhras it can be far easier to cause a storm then to stop one.
Sarumon need not CREATE the storm, mearly shift one for his use.
Or maybe Gandalfs powers arn't the same, and he can't do that particular trick.

But we do know that Sauron had the power to control the weather, and he used to be based in DulGulder, a fortress not so very far from the mountain pass.

Again, I am not saying it WAS one of the S's, but the posibility is there.

[Harad]

I don't know of any other instance where he has hidden, unmentioned forces at work.

T-zog:
Here's a possible example, that I mentioned elsewhere: when Bilbo finds the Ring. Even more hidden than Caradhras--it is implied that some force counters the "will" of the Ring/Sauron. The Ring slips off Gollum's finger hoping to be found by an Orc and eventually passed up the line to Sauron. Instead the "unlikeliest" Bilbo finds it.

[Snaga]

OK then lets talk Wargs for a minute. The logic is that neither Saruman or Sauron knew where the Fellowship were, so they couldn't send a storm to get them.

As soon as the Fellowship head down from the pass, they are attacked by Wargs. These are definitely not a natural phenomenon - the dead bodies disappear. My contention is that whoever sent them to assail the Fellowship, knew (roughly) their location. Lets accept that a general fix is OK, and then the Wargs can use their noses to get to exactly the right point. But then that's close enough to be able to get a weather system into the right area; assuming they can manipulate the weather at all of course.

That's not game-set-match to the S or S conspiracy theorists. But it keeps the possibilities open.

[Harad]

Agreed.

A general principle to keep in mind is that ME had been there a long time and there were plenty of things wandering around and in fixed positions that were good, evil, or neutral. Consider the Watcher in the Water. None claim that S or S put it there knowing the Fellowship was entering Moria. Yet it gave us a few thrills because it was there.

Similarly the wargs were on the prowl in Hollin, not only because it was their job, but also because they enjoyed that sort of thing.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Thrakerzog
...Grond,
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I would say in a place such as Caradhras it can be far easier to cause a storm then to stop one.
Sarumon need not CREATE the storm, mearly shift one for his use.
Or maybe Gandalfs powers arn't the same, and he can't do that particular trick.

But we do know that Sauron had the power to control the weather, and he used to be based in DulGulder, a fortress not so very far from the mountain pass.

Again, I am not saying it WAS one of the S's, but the posibility is there. I would like someone to show me an instance of any power on Middle-earth controlling the weather. Sauron causes Mount Doom to belch forth fumes and clouds of ash and darkness. It can be argued that he waits for an East wind to do this so the cloud will cover Gondor. Being a disciple of Aule, one would expect that both Sauron and Saruman would have some inate control over the workings of the Earth; hence control over a volcano. I have a much harder time accepting that anyone can control the air excepting possibly Gandalf since he is of the Manwe family in Aman.

What am I missing? Can someone point me to the book where weather is controlled by a character? I could be wrong, I just don't remember it.

[Thrakerzog]

Let's not get sarcastic Grond, no need to turn this hostile. :)

"It can be argued that he waits for an East wind to do this so the cloud will cover Gondor."

How do you no he doesn't create the East wind? It doesn't say he does, but does it say he doesn't?
My sense was that he controlled it more then just waiting for the correct wind.

[Grond]

Once again I'm done in by my failure to include the little smiley guy. My quote wasn't mean to be antagonistic and I apologize for it appearing that way. I just don't see how Sauron and/or Saruman can have control over the weather and Gandalf can only cause the end of his staff to glow. I would think that if the two S's had that kind of power, Gandalf would