How Come 'Frodo Lives'

[Bucky]

I know people used to write & say 'Frodo Lives' back in the 60's. They probably still do now.

Frodo & Bilbo go to The Blessed Realm with The Last Ship carrying Elrond, Galadriel & many of the High Elves.

Later, Sam & Gimli go too.

But, shouldn't they all die there?

It's plainly stated that 'It is the people, not the land that makes Valinor deathless', in Akallabeth I believe, in referrence to Ar-Parazon attemting to conquer the Blessed Realm & achieve immortality when Sauron decieves him.

Does Tolkien ever state somewhere that those 4 mortals live forever or die?

I know he mentions at the end of Akallabeth that once in a while, a man will find 'the straight path' & come to shore & see 'the White Mountain' with his dying gaze.

[Cian]

"... as for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing." JRRT

Italics as published in Letters

[Camille]

Bucky: Hi I just read your post and I want to ask you something? in what part of the LOTR is mencionated that Gimli went to Valinor or Tol Eresea?? I havent noticed that can you explain me?
thanks
and about if they (fRODO, SAM, BILBO AND.. Gimli) lived for ever?? I dont think they did maybe they have a long long happy life but not forever because this gift of dead is Iluvatar concern only as in the Sil says, and the Elves not even the Valar know what for, anmd the Valar had not the power to give or take back the Iluvatar's gifts. It was only once that they gave inmortal life to a mortal: Eareandil, and it was because of his doom and Manwen did it with Iluvatar aprobation, my opinion..

[Ragnarok]

Sam goes to Valinor later on in life, after Rosie has died. Then much much later on Gimli and Legolas sail to Valinor. I think Gimli is the first dwarf to go to Valinor.

[Camille]

Ragnarok,
Sam goes to Valinor later on in life, after Rosie has died. Then much much later on Gimli and Legolas sail to Valinor

Ok about Sam I remembered that Frodo told him at the end of the ROTK, but in what part of the Tolkiens works say that gimli went to Valinor?? in the ROTK??? Tolkiens letters??, if it is so I havent noticed it, that is what I want to know, where!!
thanks anyway for answering.:)

[dgoof911]

Why does Gimli go over to Valinor? If he is the first dwarf, why havnt any other dwaves gone there?

[Kuduk]

Originally posted by Camille
...in what part of the Tolkiens works say that gimli went to Valinor?? in the ROTK??? Tolkiens letters??, if it is so I havent noticed it, that is what I want to know, where!!Originally posted by dgoof911
Why does Gimli go over to Valinor? If he is the first dwarf, why havnt any other dwaves gone there?
Camille, it is mentioned in two places in RotK, but you have to look in the Appendices. I would actually start with Appendix B, at the very end where it details "Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring:"1541: In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.Then in Appendix A, again at the very end, you will find this paragraph (and this will answer dgoof's question):Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book:
We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than that of any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.(sigh...) Reading those paragraphs (especially the sentence saying 'an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring'), I always become very wistful.....

[Snaga]

Curses! Kuduk I'd just typed all that out when your post came up. CURSES!!!

Anyway... guys you have to read those appendices! Especially A-C. There's so much in there. For anyone new to Tolkien, wanting to know what to read after finishing LotR, the appendices are the best thing to look at I reckon.

[Elanor2]

In the 60s people also said "Gandalf for President".

I have not seen him in any campaing yet, though ;)

[Camille]

Thanks Kuduck!!! and specially to post the quotes, I have to say in my favor that my copy of the LOTR DOES NOT have any appendices!!!! :( My copy is in Spanish and in my country is very difficult to find a good Book shop (one that has very good editions) and well here I have to say that thanks to the PJ movie the Tolkiens works have been A LOT more available here!!! so dispite everything I didnt like about that movie I have to say thanks! Well but thanks to you 2 guys I will look for the LOTR English copy in order to have those appendices.
:) I have always like the friendship between legolas and Gimly "snif" well it seam that they also havea happy ending.

Pd. I want to say sorry, because the original thread was not about "Did really Gimly went to Valinor?" but it came...:)

[Lantarion]

in what part of the LOTR is mencionated that Gimli went to Valinor or Tol Eresea??
Sorry, Camille, but Tol Eressëa is a completely different place from Valinor. It is an island in the Bay of Eldamar, just off the coast of Valinor. :)
Um.. It seems that the question has already been answered. So everybody except Gandalf "soon" died in Valinor, and did not live eternally. Gandalf was a Maia, and I'm sure the Valar and Eru would let him crash in Aman because of all the good deeds he's done in Middle-Earth. A regular boy scout. :D

[Camille]

Mmm I never mean that Tol Eressea and Valinor were the same place, maybe my mistake, at his forum I am practicing my English :D

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Camille
Mmm I never mean that Tol Eressea and Valinor were the same place, maybe my mistake, at his forum I am practicing my English :D


I don't no why but i always thought that if you set foot on the undying lands with the will of the valar you would live fo ever. Would n't he live fo ever anywere cause of the ring (frodo) bit like how old bilbo got. I thought that is what happended i cant remember were i heard it but i always have believed it for some reason. Aiigght!1 See ya.

[Bucky]

>>>In the 60s people also said "Gandalf for President".

He was running against Pat Paulson....
(our age is showing)

Camille (and all who skip the Appendices):
I used to skip the Appendixes until a kid in school opened my copy of ROTK & said "Read this'. It was about Thror (Thorin's Grandpa) being hacked into pieces by the Orcs at the gates of Moria. "Cool, I gotta read this stuff."

I hope you can get a copy. There's mucho good information & stories. At least in A & B, the historical appendixes.
Others may prefer the latter appendixes, which I skip: Hobbit family trees, calanders & languages.

If you can write in English, can you read in it? If so, drop me a line & I'll get a copy to you.....

BTW: You are forgetting Earendil was half Elven & got to choose between being a Man or Elf.
It was Tuor who was a Man & 'counted amoung the Elder race' according to The Silmarillion. But, even there it says it was 'sung', not known for sure.

There's also the case of Beren & Luthien dying & returning to grow old & die, which always seemed to me VERY inconsistant with 'established procedure' for ME.

Also the highly controversial (and alleged) 'Glorfindel reincarnation'......


Beleg: The Rings didn't give permanent eternal life to anybody who put one on.
'In the Shadow of the Past', Gandalf states that 'A mortal who posesses one of the Rings of Power does not grow or obtain more life, they merely exist' & Bilbo would gett old once he gave up the ring. 'Go on right where he left off' is the quote I believe.

[HLGStrider]

I was rereading, and I noticed no one ever answered the original question to this thread. . .


I always thought "Frodo Lives" was not refering to the end of the RotK but to the end of the Two Towers. . .you know? Where Sam thinks Frodo is dead but ends the book with the realization that Frodo lives but is captured?

So Frodo does live, but they had to read the next book to find out if he is ok.

[Lantarion]

I always thought "Frodo Lives" was not refering to the end of the RotK but to the end of the Two Towers. . .you know? Where Sam thinks Frodo is dead but ends the book with the realization that Frodo lives but is captured?
That is one view certainly, and it is a logical way to look at it. But the phrase "Frodo Lives" sounds like more than a kind of reiteration or a relieved cry of what happens in the book; for me it has always been just a play on "Elvis Lives". In both cases the phrase is meaningful and requires faith to believe in because a) Elvis recordedly died, but not everybody believes it, and b) Frodo is also reported as having died in Valinor, though indirectly as I recall. The phrase "Frodo Lives" I think concretely speaking refers to the idea that Frodo might not have died in Valinor after all, reasoned no doubt by some with the fact that Aman with its Undying nature could be able to prolong one's life indefinitely.

[joxy]

"Frodo Lives"....has always been just a play on "Elvis Lives".
The other way round surely - check the dates!

[Ithrynluin]

I've always taken 'Frodo lives!' to be something of a romantic utterance of die hard LOTR fans who wanted to keep the book and its main character(s) 'alive' in memory and cherished by generations to come. But hey, that's just my nutty explanation. :p

[Inderjit S]

'Frodo lives' certainly has a romantic essence to it-but whether Frodo would have wanted to live forever is another matter-and I really think he would have, eventually, wanted to pass the circles of the world like all other mortals, spotted-toads and Dwarven sophists.

Keep in mind that at the time this started the Letters and The Silmarillion had not been published

Indeed. Tolkien left it very "up in the air", and if it wasn't for any inquisitive Tolkien fans we may never have known the truth.

[33Peregrin]

I was surprised to find that my brother's old and balding guitar teacher had 'Frodo Lives' scratched into his guitar, and he was equally surprised to find that I (then a 15 year old girl) had it written on my shoes! The explanation for Frodo Lives that that guitar teacher (Who was there back then) gave my brother was simply that 'Frodo lives in all of us.' :D
Before then though, I had never thought of it that way. Mostly, I just liked Frodo. But still, I had always though that that phrase was used to mean that LOTR is here!!! Yay! Not much more than that.

[Isildur's Heir]

I knew about the 'Frodo Lives' graffiti before I read the trilogy for the first time and I went all the way through the books, expecting Frodo to die while destroying the ring(I kind of expected Frodo to have Gollum's fate, actually).

[Erestor Arcamen]

Could it be possible that maybe, Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli were maybe given eternal life like the elves? I mean Illuvatar, I believe, gave Beren and Luthien life again as humans in The Silmarillion. I mean I'm not saying this is definate, but it could have happened...

[Ithrynluin]

Frodo and Bilbo most definitely died eventually, and so did Gimli probably, though of his fate not much is said anywhere. Very, very few individuals received the so called 'altered destinies'. These were special cases by the narrowest of margins.

[Greenwood]

I just stumbled across this thread. I am showing my age when I admit that I remember when "Frodo Lives" became popular; I had already been a fan for some time. Nóm was, of course, quite correct that The Silmarillion and Tolkien's Letters had not been published at the time and most readers thought Frodo was healed and granted life in the West as a reward. But in my experience there was more to it than that. At least in the U.S. (where I think the term "Frodo Lives" originated), it was a time of rebellion against established authority. Although LOTR had become immensely popular, "authority" in the form of mainstream criticism and the vast majority of English departments in schools, dismissed LOTR as juvenile fantasy. Thus "Frodo Lives" was not just an statement by fans that their hero Frodo still lived, but it was an affirmation that Middle Earth was real and a rebellion against the "establishment" that tried to dismiss LOTR as not serious literature. Certainly, in the latter instance, time has proven the fans correct and the "establishment" wrong.

Frodo Lives!!! :)

[legolas'protege]

yeah i dunno about frodo living eternally in valinor, but i think somewhere in the book or appendices it says that the elves granted gimli eternal life while still in middle earth and then years later he went across the sea with legolas.

frodo lives is the coolest phrase. i am planning to write it all over my schoolbooks and i already have it scratched on my walkman. ;)

i think frodo despite having his faults (unlike legolas or merry) is one of the most awesome heroes in fantasy literature to date.

and although this has nothing to do with the thread and everybody probably already knows this anyway, the name "frodo" comes from some king in a poem whose name was "frodi" . i think frodi means something cool but i can't remember what it is. cam anyone help me out? :cool:

[Annaheru]

about Gimli, the Dwarf legend is that when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos, to a place set apart (see Sil). Anyway, it is probable that Frodo, Sam and Bolbo didn't go to Valinor, but only the Lonely Isle. Remember, the exiled Elves who returned didn't dwell in Valinor. They could go there, but their home was Tol Eressea. That was one of the consequences of the Noldor's rebellion. So, the hobbits would have eventually died and left the circle of the world, and Gimli would have died and gone to the Halls of Waiting like any other dwarf.

[Starflower]

All the non-elves - Frodo, Bilbo, Sam & Gimli were admitted to Valinor for different reasons. The hobbits were admitted because of their sacrifice in carrying and destroying the Ring, Gimli was apparently (this is what we are being told in the appendices) because of his friendship to Legolas, and because of his worship of Galadriel.

Nowhere is it said that any of them lived forever, quite the contrary - as we have seen earlier in this thread, it was specifically Tolkien's intent that they would die a natural death.
Legolas of course, being an elf, would not die but live in Valinor as all the other elves.
As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them.



Anyway, it is probable that Frodo, Sam and Bolbo didn't go to Valinor, but only the Lonely Isle. Remember, the exiled Elves who returned didn't dwell in Valinor. They could go there, but their home was Tol Eressea. That was one of the consequences of the Noldor's rebellion.

Actually the Noldor were allowed back into Valinor itself, though many preferred to stay in Tol Eressea as that was 'closer to home' so to speak.
And it is not mentioned that they would only have gone as far as Tol Eressea, in all intents and purposes they went all the way

[grendel]

I can remember, probably from about the same era, people used to write "Clapton is God".... didn't make it true. It's just graffiti, a form of self-expression.