The other Rings?

[marko]

Hi,
I was just wondering what has become of the other Rings. I know that Sauron was able to enslave the nine 'Man' Kings he gave rings to but how is it that the elves still have their Rings and have not turned to evil.

And from the appendices I gather that Sauron took back at least one ring from the Dwarves - did he take back all the other Rings he had given to the Dwarves?

I found it odd that considering the One Ring could have fallen into Sauron's hands at any time, that Elrond and Co. didn't think it wise to cast away their rinsg or that Tolkien didn't at least mention this as a consequence of what would happen if Frodo had been captured and Sauron had reclaimed his Ring?

Also,(I know I'm labouring the point) why did Sauron make a One Ring in the first place - fair enough that he wanted to control all the other Ring Bearers but why did he need a Ring for this? If it was his power that he was putting into the Ring, why put all his power into something that could be chopped off his hand????

Any thoughts, Cheers.........

[FrodetteBaggins]

Well I don't really know much except that Galadriel still has her ring. Sorry I couldn't help:confused:

[Gary Gamgee]

Hi marko

Sauron never touched the three elvin rings these were made by the elves and were not inheirantly evil. They took off the three before Sauron, first time round, put the one ring on, thus he never had any control over the elves. They can use the three as long as Sauron is not wearing the one. When Galadriel say's to Frodo you are the footsteps of doom she knows that if Sauron were to get the ring back she would not be able to use her ring and Lorien would fade, also if the ring is destroyed her own ring would lose it's power.

GG

[Snaga]

Hi marko & welcome!

Sauron made the One Ring himself, to enslave the others. But at the moment at which it was created the owners of the 3 realised what was going on and hid their rings. So I think if Sauron had got back the his Ring, they would probably still been able to take their rings off. I don't think they would have been instantly enslaved.

All the dwarves rings were either consumed by dragons, or taken back by Sauron too.

I don't know why he need a ring to control a ring... but it sort of makes sense. I guess you're right he was taking a risk to put so much of his own power into something that could be cut off his finger. But he probably thought that with it he'd be unbeatable. But when he declared war on Elves and Men at the time of the Last Alliance he did so too quickly, before he'd really gathered all his forces, which was why the Last Alliance was able to beat him.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by marko
Hi,
I was just wondering what has become of the other Rings. I know that Sauron was able to enslave the nine 'Man' Kings he gave rings to but how is it that the elves still have their Rings and have not turned to evil.

And from the appendices I gather that Sauron took back at least one ring from the Dwarves - did he take back all the other Rings he had given to the Dwarves?

I found it odd that considering the One Ring could have fallen into Sauron's hands at any time, that Elrond and Co. didn't think it wise to cast away their rinsg or that Tolkien didn't at least mention this as a consequence of what would happen if Frodo had been captured and Sauron had reclaimed his Ring?

Also,(I know I'm labouring the point) why did Sauron make a One Ring in the first place - fair enough that he wanted to control all the other Ring Bearers but why did he need a Ring for this? If it was his power that he was putting into the Ring, why put all his power into something that could be chopped off his hand????

Any thoughts, Cheers.........




The rings of power were made by the elven smiths of Hollin, the best and most skilled was celembrimbor. Now there were 19 "elvish" rings in all 7, 9, and 3. Now the 7 and 9 were made by the help of Sauron and they had a bit of evil in them. The 3 was made by celembrimbor alone and Sauron never touched or sore them. At this time the one ring was made to rule or the others and celembrimbor new he was betrayed he hid the 3 rings. There are several versoins on who he gave the rings but in the end galadriel had one from the start. Elrond got gil-galads ring when they went for the last alliance. Cirdan gave gandalf his ring to. Now back to the time at hand. Sauron made war on the elves for the rings. He got the 9 which he gave to mortal men the 7 in which he gave fo the dwarves but the 3 he couldn't find. The 3 elf lords hid their rings and never used them. Now the elf rings stayed with their masters fo ever and did great good. The 9 of men Sauron found easy to corrupt and he got them under his service as the nazgul. The 7 he founded hard to get. But he got back 3 rings 4 others had been consumed by dragon fire.


That is the story in brief and i hope it helps Marko!!:D :D :D :) :) :) :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Urylia]

While we are on the topic of rings, this guy (the same one who compared me to Luthien) said that Gandalf has one of the three elven rings. Is this true?

[Goro Shimura]

Yep... Gandalf had the third elvish ring: Narya the great with a red stone.

(Does that mean that the scene in the movie of the elves with their rings... the one with the red ring is Cirdan the shipwright? Also is there any record in Tolkien that somebody bore Galadriel's ring before she got it? That sure wasn't Galadriel in that scene! Or was it?)



Why rings?

In the middle ages, a ring was used by a king to mark letters as being from him. If he lent his ring to someone, they could give commands as the king. So rings represent power and authority....

Just a thought....

[Snaga]

Goroshimura

I think it WAS Galadriel in that scene. I think they were meant to be Cirdan (the old looking one with white hair), Galadriel and Gil-Galad (with dark hair).

Can anyone confirm that SHOULD be Gil-Galad... because I can't remember where but I'm pretty sure GG had it before Elrond. If so should GG have dark hair, or fair hair. I thought as one of the Noldor he'd be a blondie?? (As opposed to Legolas who ought to have dark hair?)

[Grond]

Galadriel was in the scene in the movie. Tolkien had said at one time that Celimbrimbor gave the first to Galadriel (she was the Elf-queen of Eregion in some accounts) and the other two he sent to Gil-galad for safe keeping. Gil-galad gave one of these to Elrond and one to Cirdan. Later Cirdan passed his on to Mithrandir/Gandalf.

In the flick, it appears that Celebrimbor is giving one each to Gil-galad, Galadriel and Cirdan. Understand that Tolkien wrote many different accounts of many different events in his books so the movie scene is not out of line.

[Osric]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Why rings?
In the middle ages, a ring was used by a king to mark letters as being from him. If he lent his ring to someone, they could give commands as the king. So rings represent power and authority.
In the Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures of which Tolkien was a particular afficionado, a ring was a mark of appreciation. The lord of the tribe/clan/host got all the wealth, but distributed it amongst his loyal followers, often in the form of rings, such that a favoured lord was called a ring-giver.
I think this informs the idea more than the later medieval reference.
But at the end of the day, it all stems from Tolkien having invented a ring that made people invisible in one book and then extrapolated from there when the publishers wanted a sequel, so maybe we should ask "why a ring of invisibility?"

Cheers,
-- Os.

[Harad]

Its an interesting evolution.

Assuming there wasnt rewriting--and there may have been--the Hobbit says:

...it was a ring of power, and if you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible...But who knows how Gollum came by that present...

JRRT was clever enough to expand the Ring from one with a simple magical property to the key item in the Age. My guess is that parts of the evolution came from "how Gollum got the Ring" --via murder--and thence a backward history connecting it to the Lord of Murder, Sauron. Then add a few properties of "power" and voila, LOTR.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
Assuming there wasnt rewriting--and there may have been--the Hobbit says:


I don't know about this particular quote, but I just read in one of the early letters (I'm only halfway through so far) that Tolkien rewrote the 'riddles in the dark' chapter to make it fit better for LOTR. From memory, I don't have the books with me, apparently in the first edition Gollum was planning to actually give the ring to Bilbo if Bilbo won the riddle game, and apologized when he could not find it. Since this would not fit with the nature of the ring in LOTR, Tolkien changed it to the version I think everyone is familiar with. If I remember right, the rest of your story fits with that letter.
(I hope I remembered this right, I'll get back to you if not)

[Harad]

The "history" of the Hobbit says there was rewriting of the Riddle Game. This works both to really make the Hobbit consistent with LOTR and to introduce the idea of Bilbo fudging the details at first. It would be fascinating to see a 1930-1940 edition of the Hobbit to see what it REALLY said.

However, I was referring to the sentences describing the Ring which may or may not have been retouched, independent of the Riddle Game.

[Goro Shimura]

Did anyone ever explain why rings of power make mortals invisible... but not elves, wizards, and Sauron?

(And would Frodo turn invisible if he put Galadriel's or Gandalf's ring on? I think so....)

There is definitely a logic behind everything: the hobbit's resistance to rings, the men's weakness... the fading. The "power given according to stature." The lust for the ring... the long life... the way the ring betrays it's users and corrupts them....

I just don't understand why everything was set out that way. I myself would never have been able to develop such an elaborate... (what?)... uh... thing.

[Harad]

Do the other rings make you invisible? Would the Red Ring worn by Gandalf make Frodo invisible?

IMO the invisiblity of the OneRing was an added on feature by necessity from the earlier Hobbit, but not really integral to its nature, as finally described in LOTR.

[Goro Shimura]

But why the differentiation in effects between mortals and immortals?

There's something more to this invisibility of men and hobbits (but not elves) than just a neato plot element.

(I wish I could tell you what it was, though...)

[Nazgul_Lord]

All of the dwarven rings were destroyed or lost, the nine rings are worn by the Nazgul, the one is destroyed in the fires of mount doom by Gollum accidentaly, and the Three elven are held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.

[Grond]

Gandalf states in FotR, The Shadow of the Past,
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later -- later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last -- sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

This passage can be clearly taken to mean that any of the 20 Great Rings would make a mortal invisible but JRRT later refines his answer. The Elven Rings do not confer invisibility as they were never touched by Sauron and Power was not their aim. The seven Dwarf-rings did not confer invisibility on the Dwarves but would have on Man or Hobbit. (I would deem that Tolkien did not mean to include Dwarves with mortals). The Nine did exactly as the quote from Gandalf states and "consumed" the essence of the nine kings who received them, turning them into wraiths.

The ultimate explanation was that it allowed those who had no defined being on the other side (Aman/Heaven) existed in that plane while wearing one of the Great Rings. In other words it only effected Man or man-products such as Hobbits with invisibility. I will look in the Letters and see if I can find any other information on this subject.

Harad, you are right. It does appear that the magic ring from the Hobbit was transformed sometime after its publishing into the Great Ring of Power.:)

[Elanor2]

Just to add on the 3 elven rings...

Celebrimbor was a Noldor lord, cousin of Gil-Galad and nephew of Galadriel. It makes sense that he would give the rings he made to his family. How one got in the hands of Cirdan, I do not know. I thought that when Celebrimbor left ME after his domain of Eregion was destroyed, he might have left it with Cirdan at the Grey Havens. But if he sent it to Gil-galad before, Gil-galad himself should have given it to Cirdan. Cirdan was the oldest and wisest Sindar elf left, after all.

[Osric]

Originally posted by Harad
Do the other rings make you invisible? Would the Red Ring worn by Gandalf make Frodo invisible?
IMO the invisiblity of the OneRing was an added on feature by necessity from the earlier Hobbit, but not really integral to its nature, as finally described in LOTR.
Invisibility was something they all shared, IIRC (or at least most of them did). You can see a hint of this in the fact that Narya only appeared on Gandalf's hand after the destruction of the One, Sam couldn't see Nenya on Galadriel's hand while ringbearer Frodo could (and Elrond's one doesn't get mentioned at all).

Frodo once asks why he can't boss the Nazgul around, and part of the answer is that he hasn't even tried yet -- let alone learnt how or had chance to put in any practice at it. I have always assumed the invisibility effect was another one that could be mastered given the lore and the control to do it, and would then be optional.

Sauron wasn't invisible when Isildur lopped his Ring off, and it didn't turn Tom Bombadil invisible either.

[Goro Shimura]

Right... but Tom Bombadil and Sauron were not mortals....

[Grond]

Originally posted by Elanor2
Just to add on the 3 elven rings...

Celebrimbor was a Noldor lord, cousin of Gil-Galad and nephew of Galadriel. It makes sense that he would give the rings he made to his family. How one got in the hands of Cirdan, I do not know. I thought that when Celebrimbor left ME after his domain of Eregion was destroyed, he might have left it with Cirdan at the Grey Havens. But if he sent it to Gil-galad before, Gil-galad himself should have given it to Cirdan. Cirdan was the oldest and wisest Sindar elf left, after all. Actually Galadriel's father Finarfin would have been Celebrimbor's great-uncle. Galadriel would have been a first cousin, once removed and Elrond was a fourth or so cousin. Secondly, from Appendix A, The Tale of Years, SA 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor... It appears Celebrimbor was killed while defending Eregion and had already given the Three up for safe-keeping. More is told in the other works. I'll look later today or tomorrow. :)

[Harad]

Nazgul_Lord said:
All of the dwarven rings were destroyed or lost

My understanding was they were "lost" to the Dwarfs. But for example Sauron took the ring from Thrain, so it was not "lost" to Sauron.

Invisiblity was used in a clever way by JRRT as stated above. In the Hobbit it was a simple "magicians" trick, but in LOTR he adapted it to mean a shift from this world into another world--the world of enhanced good and evil--e.g. glowing elves (hehehe), and anti-glowing Nazgul.

In The Hobbit "invisibilty" took you out of this world and didnt put you anywhere in particular. In LOTR, JRRT made it put you in another world as well.

[Gary Gamgee]

Just a thought on why Tolkien used a ring rather than any other object. I know that in Greek philosophy there was often talk of a ring that could confer invisibility to the wearer and how this would corrupt a man's heart. To be invisible, they argued, is to have absolute power, for you could do whatever you wanted to whom ever you wanted. The weight of such power will eventually turn even the very good towards the wrong path. I imagine that Tolkien, being very educated, would have known of this.

[Harad]

from the Sil
Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge
was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had
contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance. Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing
potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of
those that wore them.

This does seem to imply that ALL the other Rings were interchangeable.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in
others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed
proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered. Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great
wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of
the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

But where does it say that Sauron got back the Nazgul rings?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Harad
...But where does it say that Sauron got back the Nazgul rings? From The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien,Letter 246 to Mrs Eileen Elgar, September 1965, Tolkien writes,

"...laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills..."

[Harad]

I need a ruling from Greenwood on this one.

[Grond]

Greenwood has consistently ruled that if the posthumous works add clarity without changing what is in the Hobbit or LotR, then they are acceptable.

Hmmmmmm?? Maybe we need to create a Committee for the Determination fo the Author's Opinions!

Harad, that letter was in response to a lady asking the very question you put forward. If we can't trust the author, then ?????????

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand

should GG have dark hair, or fair hair. I thought as one of the Noldor he'd be a blondie?? (As opposed to Legolas who ought to have dark hair?)

VofK, all houses of the noldor had dark hair, except the House of Finarfin, which inherited blond hair from Earwen of Alqualonde, one of the Teleri.
This means that Galadriel has fair hair, being Earwen's daughter.
It also means that Gil-Galad and Elrond would both have dark hair, being of the House of Fingolfin.

[Brent]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Hi marko & welcome!

Sauron made the One Ring himself, to enslave the others. But at the moment at which it was created the owners of the 3 realised what was going on and hid their rings. So I think if Sauron had got back the his Ring, they would probably still been able to take their rings off. I don't think they would have been instantly enslaved.

All the dwarves rings were either consumed by dragons, or taken back by Sauron too.

I don't know why he need a ring to control a ring... but it sort of makes sense. I guess you're right he was taking a risk to put so much of his own power into something that could be cut off his finger. But he probably thought that with it he'd be unbeatable. But when he declared war on Elves and Men at the time of the Last Alliance he did so too quickly, before he'd really gathered all his forces, which was why the Last Alliance was able to beat him.

I thought the Elves became aware of him when he put it on, not when he forged it ? It just didn't work, they weren't enslaved they just took the things off.

[Brent]

Originally posted by Elanor2
Just to add on the 3 elven rings...

Celebrimbor was a Noldor lord, cousin of Gil-Galad and nephew of Galadriel. It makes sense that he would give the rings he made to his family. How one got in the hands of Cirdan, I do not know. I thought that when Celebrimbor left ME after his domain of Eregion was destroyed, he might have left it with Cirdan at the Grey Havens. But if he sent it to Gil-galad before, Gil-galad himself should have given it to Cirdan. Cirdan was the oldest and wisest Sindar elf left, after all.

Alas Celebrimbor was slain in the assault on Ost-in-edhil and Sauron used his body nailed to a pole as a standard in the War in Eregion.

[Brent]

Originally posted by Mormegil


VofK, all houses of the noldor had dark hair, except the House of Finarfin, which inherited blond hair from Earwen of Alqualonde, one of the Teleri.
This means that Galadriel has fair hair, being Earwen's daughter.
It also means that Gil-Galad and Elrond would both have dark hair, being of the House of Fingolfin.

Are you sure ? I thought that the Blonde Hair came from Indis the Fair of the Vanyar Elves who ALL had blonde hair. I thought Elrond was Dark via Tuor his grandfather.

[Harad]

And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

This is a quote from the Sil regarding the principle of the rings. Do we take this seriously? Then there is a snippet from a letter someone dug up somewhere purportedly by JRRT to some random person that says the Nazgul no longer have their rings. Is there anything anywhere else that says this? If these 2 things seemingly contradict each other, which are we to believe?

Its time for a reality check. JRRT was a great author, he created an interesting and fun universe. However he was not infallible and did not create a "reality." Reality thru the laws of physics HAS to be consistent--at least we hope so. Middle Earth is able to be inconsistent because it is a literary creation of JRRT. I am sorry to say this but therefore it is "imperfect." So what? I can still thoroughly enjoy it. If this ruins it for some people, they should get over it.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Brent
I thought the Elves became aware of him when he put it on, not when he forged it ? It just didn't work, they weren't enslaved they just took the things off. The text makes it clear that had the Elves kept wearing their Rings they would have been subservient to the One. That is stated I believe in the Appendix. It goes something like, "though the Three were never touched by the One, they were still subject to it." That doesn't sound quite right but is close enough.

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Brent


Are you sure ? I thought that the Blonde Hair came from Indis the Fair of the Vanyar Elves who ALL had blonde hair. I thought Elrond was Dark via Tuor his grandfather.

Sorry Brent. A minor mistake on my part.:)
The fair hair did indeed come from Indis the fair, and not from Earwen as I incorrectly stated.

However, the rest of what I said was correct....
From the index of The Silmarillion

Finarfin:- ......Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his decendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf.

So I was only slightly wrong.
It still means that both Elrond and Gil-Galad would have had Dark hair, being of the House of Fingolfin.:D

[Brent]

Originally posted by Grond
The text makes it clear that had the Elves kept wearing their Rings they would have been subservient to the One. That is stated I believe in the Appendix. It goes something like, "though the Three were never touched by the One, they were still subject to it." That doesn't sound quite right but is close enough.

I found the index entry for Finarfin and the Golden Hair issue it pops up from Indis - but I'm not so sure that this point is so clear Grond
the book says (p336 in my edition)
"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."

They don't actually remove them til Sauron puts on his and has a go as it were - then they realise who Annatar had been and its war.

[Grond]

In rereading my post, I wasn't clear as to what I meant. My opinion is that Sauron was not revealed to the Elves until he placed the Ring on his finger and that, had the Elves not taken there Ring's off, they would have come under Sauron's domination. :)

[Anduril]

Hello everybody...and Hello marko...


I think that the idea of the possesion of "rings" involves a lot of "mysticism".
Rememeber the symbols attached to the rings: never ending figures, with no ending and no beggining limit on it...
In fact.
I sincerely think that JRRT tried to capture the essence of the "carrying power" beneath oneself, a tremendous power that you can carry with you. A power that leaves you the movility to do exverything that you want, coser, small, affordable to the owners hand.

Best wishes.
Anduril.




Originally posted by marko
Hi,
I was just wondering what has become of the other Rings. I know that Sauron was able to enslave the nine 'Man' Kings he gave rings to but how is it that the elves still have their Rings and have not turned to evil.

And from the appendices I gather that Sauron took back at least one ring from the Dwarves - did he take back all the other Rings he had given to the Dwarves?

I found it odd that considering the One Ring could have fallen into Sauron's hands at any time, that Elrond and Co. didn't think it wise to cast away their rinsg or that Tolkien didn't at least mention this as a consequence of what would happen if Frodo had been captured and Sauron had reclaimed his Ring?

Also,(I know I'm labouring the point) why did Sauron make a One Ring in the first place - fair enough that he wanted to control all the other Ring Bearers but why did he need a Ring for this? If it was his power that he was putting into the Ring, why put all his power into something that could be chopped off his hand????

Any thoughts, Cheers......... :) :)

[Brent]

Originally posted by Grond
In rereading my post, I wasn't clear as to what I meant. My opinion is that Sauron was not revealed to the Elves until he placed the Ring on his finger and that, had the Elves not taken there Ring's off, they would have come under Sauron's domination. :)

Yes I agree, I think that Sauron would have had to "worn in" the Ring just like anyone else who gets hold of it (although of course much faster). He'd never made anything like it before or experienced it live - it was all theory.
Also, since he has no contact with the Elven Rings they represent an unfamilar pawn on his chessboard, he knows what they look like but not how they will move. Things just didn't work out quite as he planned and he lost it. That fits with his character and his weird. Everytime he "takes the field" he gets his arse kicked, he's much better as a plotter.