Glorfindel instead of Pippin?

[baraka]

What would have happened if Elrond got his way and he send Pippin back to the Shire and choose Glorfindel as the last Member of the Fellowship.
Could he have battled the balrog instead of Olorin?

[Legolam]

I think Gandalf would still have battled the Balrog, I think it was kind of his nemesis and something he had to get out of the way. But the story wouldn't have been as much fun without Merry and Pip being so funny, and Pippin couldn't have saved Faramir

[Lantarion]

I can't remember, when did Pippin save Faramir?
I think Gandalf would have had a better chance of winning the Balrog if Glorfindel were at his side. After all (although not much is revealed of the 'powers' and magical stature of the supposed "Elven lords") Glor was a 'powerful elf lord', and must have posessed the same sort of powers as Gandalf did, although perhaps not as potent: Cf. Flight to the Ford, when he battles the Nazgûl.
And it is also debatable whether or not the Orcs, along with the Valarauka, would have even been roused and set upon the Fellowship if Pippin hadn't've (is that a word?) dropped the stone in the empty well (or a suit or armour..blech).

[Bucky]

Maybe Elrond could've sent both; then Gandalf could have thrown Pippin in the well & they'd still have 9.....

Pippin saves Faramir by getting Beregond & then Gandalf when Denethor's about to have a human barbeque on the Silent Street in 'The Pyre of Denethor' in ROTK.

On sending Pippin back to the Shire:
Do you really think Pippin would've been much good at this point in the story to stop Sharkey's Men?
Look at all the dumb things he does from the time The Fellowship leaves until he finally gets sufficiently 'refined in the fire' & is able to lead the uprising in 'The Scouring of The Shire' (along with Merry).
As Gandalf tells the Hobbits before he turns off to see Bombadil "This is what you've been trained for" & "You are amoung the Great".

Is this the same guy who's throwing a rock into a well in Moria?
Hardly.

[baraka]

Would Glorfindel have followed Frodo & Sam to Mordor, or with Aragorn to save only Merry. Hmmm. Would Merry have been captured or not with Glor. with them.

[Harad]

I have suggested that it would have made sense to replace Legolas with Glorfindel:

1. It would keep the same Man-Hobbit-Elf-Dwarf-Maia ratio on the Fellowship

2. Glorfindel was stronger than Legolas, more stealthy than Legolas, and a better dancer than Legolas.

3. Glorfindel ate Nazgul for lunch.

The problem with Glorfindel replacing anybody however is that Glorfindel is TOO BIG for the story. He would tend to dominate the later action at the expense of the other characters we know and love.

[TulKas Astaldo]

I don't see why Elrond didn't send the whole bunch... Personally, I would have sent Frodo with maybe Sam along with Glorfindel, Legolas, Gandalf, and a few other Elves... Perhaps Elrond's sons. Why a Dwarf? Why Hobbits?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by TulKas Astaldo
I don't see why Elrond didn't send the whole bunch... Personally, I would have sent Frodo with maybe Sam along with Glorfindel, Legolas, Gandalf, and a few other Elves... Perhaps Elrond's sons. Why a Dwarf? Why Hobbits?



Yeah you are right i probably would have sent the most powerful people along. But would sauron have seen or sensed them earlier if the fellowship had more powerful people in the group. Also Gimli is quite handy to have on your side in a war.

[Bucky]

>>>. Glorfindel ate Nazgul for lunch.

Glorfindel also knew that The Witch-King of Angmar would not die by the hand of a man......

As stated before, Gimli & Legolas were chosen to go in the Fellowship because it was a way for them to get home. A bit out of the way, but Elrond says that "They are willing to go as far as the passes of the mountains"

[Harad]

But of course. With the fate of the whole of ME at hand, I wouldnt send the best people, I would send the people who were going that way anyway, to get home.

The Nazgul ran from Glorfindel every chance they got. Just wondering but: Glorfindel was a "man"?

[Bucky]

Yeah, I was wondering that too.

In the Appendix, as I was reading it, it says
"Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, & in the midst of his laughter (at Eanur) he turned to flight'.
It does sort of give you the idea that he was afraid of Glorfindel, as;
1. The Witch-king already knew the battle was lost, but
2. He had singled out Earnur 'for the fullness of his hatred & with a terrible cry, rode straight for him'.

So, he was obviously not scared of the armies that had just defeated his host, but high tailed it outta there when Glorfindel rode up.

So, does The Morgul Lord (Witch-king) already know no 'Man', as in race can harm him?
It may appear so, but that may simply be in a 'power' sense, not a prophetic sense.

Taken in 20/20 hindsight, Glorfindel's prophecy would seem to mean no 'Man' in a gender sense, as Eowyn kills him.
But it also takes Merry's sword, made for battle against Angmar to 'cleave his undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.' before Eowyn can kill him.....

So, I guess the answer could be both or either.

[Greymantle]

Glorfindel may well have battled the Balrog. Gandalf only fought it because there were no others in the Company who had a shadow of a chance of even holding it at bay. But Glorfindel, as we know, rather specialised in wrestling with Balrogs and falling from cliffs. :p

[Tyaronumen]

To send the mightiest elves in Rivendell along with the Fellowship would have been the equivalent of sending Sauron regularly updated messages as to the whereabouts of the Fellowship and would certainly have let Sauron know that something incredible was going on (ie. the Ring going south) to have mighty elven-lords like Glorfindel along escorting it.

Far easier to hide the presence of a mortal man, or even of an elf like Legolas, than that of one of the Calaquendi of old.

[Harad]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Glorfindel would not be more stealthy than Legolas. He should be better at everything than Legolas. The argument that Glorfindel would give away the party, more so applies to Gandalf, the second most powerful figure in ME, and to the Ring, Sauron's best pal.

[Tyaronumen]

No, it does not apply moreso to Gandalf, nor the Ring.

A. Obviously Sauron isn't that great at detecting the Ring. This is a given just based on the fact that Sauron isn't constantly hounding the party.
B. Gandalf wanders around Middle-Earth all of the time. His presence in the wild is not necessarily odd.
C. A bunch of Elf Lords traipsing through the wilderness WOULD be noticed by the enemy. It's not a matter of physical ability, stealth, etc. It's a matter of presence. This is similar to when Gandalf reveals his strength and basically "reveals that Gandalf is here for all with eyes to see" or some quote near to that. If the Elf Lords utilize their might in any way shape or form, it becomes immediately obvious that they are NOT "mere" elves or men (such as Legolas, etc.).

[Harad]

If the Elf Lords utilize their might in any way shape or form, it becomes

Why not apply the same standards to Gandalf and the Ring that you do to Elf Lords?

If "Gandalf utilizes his might" he will be revealed.

If "The Ring is Wielded" it will be revealed. It is a distinction without a difference.

[Tyaronumen]

Also, the insinuation that Glorfindel would be better than Legolas at everything is silly. Age alone does not guarantee skill, and it is quite possible that Legolas was a better archer and tracker than Glorfindel, not to mention that he may have been quite a bit more stealthy as well. Legolas was born in the forest, while Glorfindel's place of birth is not known, although we know he dwelt in the Utmost West...

However, most of the Noldor were not forest dwellers, so it is quite possible that while Glorfindel is MUCH older than Legolas and almost certainly more skilled in hand-to-hand combat and wiser, it is not a given at all that he is "better at everything".

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Harad


Why not apply the same standards to Gandalf and the Ring that you do to Elf Lords?

If "Gandalf utilizes his might" he will be revealed.

If "The Ring is Wielded" it will be revealed. It is a distinction without a difference.

Well why DON'T we apply the same standards to Gandalf and the Ring?

Gandalf IS revealed on Caradhras (as he notes in his statement that "all for many leagues will know Gandalf the Grey is here" or whatever. Can't recall the quote, sorry.)

And the Ring IS revealed -- at Amon Sul, at Amon Hen, at Sammath Naur, etc.

So yes, let's apply these same standards.

Thanks for agreeing.

[Harad]

Sure, and thanks for agreeing that Glorfindel would make the Fellowship stronger and more likely to succeed. And if Legolas is better at all these things than Glorfindel, then who IS the High Elf?

[Tyaronumen]

I don't see how Glorfindel would "make the group more likely to succeed" based on what I said.

Typically, I think that High Elf is used to refer to those elves who dwelt in Valinor and were known as the Calaquendi as well as their descendants...

This does NOT mean that a High Elf will definitely be superior in all qualities and abilitites to a Sindarin Elf such as Legolas. Indeed, Beleg Cuthalion, who was a Sindarin elf, and not of the Calaquendi, was mightier than many of the Noldorin high elves from Valinor. This, despite the fact that he had not dwelt in Valinor.

Basically, Glorfindel may be a lot of things, but he's not the end all be all. We all have differing skills, desires, and tasks, and none of us can be the best at everything, and unless Glorfindel spent hundreds of years in the forest like Legolas did (we can't be sure that he didn't, except to observe that this was not the way of the Noldor as described in the Silmarillion or LotR...), it is definitely likely that Legolas is more at home in the forest.

[Harad]

Well then I suppose its a good thing that success in the Fellowship meant "spending a lot of time in the forest" rather than being a High Elf, which suddenly has its stock going way down.

Not to mention...Glorfindel beat (at least drew) a Major Balrog on his own, and made the Nazgul run everytime they saw him...No, I guess youre right...being comfortable in the forest is what I would choose to ensure success for the Quest.

[Ged]

Tyaronumen,

For what it's worth, reading through this thread, I believe you are a true elf-friend. Glorfindel was a mighty and worthy elf, but if he HAD joined the fellowship the story would NOT have remained the same.

[baraka]

I have read your various posts and i have to say that it has been quite entertaining and educational. I kind of tend to agree with Tyaronumen in that he says that Glorfindel is not better in all than Legolas, but myself i think that i prefer a High Elf like Glorfindel in my company instead of Pippin. If I was on the fellowship and i was Frodo, i would sleep better at night knowing that Pippin is safe in the Shire and I have Glorfindel to protect me.
He can take care of Balrogs!

[Glaurung]

Who knows what would have happened. The whole point of there being so many hobbits in the fellowship is that it perpetuates the theme in LOTR about the most powerful individuals not necessarily being the most tall or strong. Merry and Pippen, despite their size, managed to change world history partly by helping to convince the Ents to attack Isengard. If Pippen hadn't been there to support Merry maybe the attack wouldn't even have happened. Glorfindel might be a powerful warrior, but maybe he wouldn't have done anything truly worthwhile on the quest except fighting orcs.

[Harad]

Glorfindel was a better replacement for Legolas, leaving Pippen to be all that he could be. Glorfindel would have come in handy when the Balrog showed, perhaps saving Gandalf, and changing all that subsequently happened at Parth Galen. No one knows what other ways the story could have gone, but with Glorfindel in the party, it would have been quite different. And certainly not as good of a story.

[Snaga]

So would you have clapped Pippin in irons, or sent him home tied up in a sack. I think those are Merry's suggestions. Alternatives are welcome...

One of the great things about M&P is that didn't take no for an answer. Contrast with Glorfindel, who in the hour of need of the free peoples of the world, decides he needs to go and polish his horse's tinkling bells.;)

[Harad]

Right. A great High Elf he was. No clamoring to do his part on the Fellowhip. Instead an expenses paid vacation in Palookaville.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Harad
Well then I suppose its a good thing that success in the Fellowship meant "spending a lot of time in the forest" rather than being a High Elf, which suddenly has its stock going way down.

Not to mention...Glorfindel beat (at least drew) a Major Balrog on his own, and made the Nazgul run everytime they saw him...No, I guess youre right...being comfortable in the forest is what I would choose to ensure success for the Quest.

*wades through heavy sarcasm...* :)

Actually, the truth is that if you are experienced in forest-lore, you tend to be:

A. A lot more stealthy
B. More in tune with the animals/plants around you (ie. you know
their behavioral patterns, which plants are good for eatting, etc.)
C. A capable tracker

Now none of these things explicitly helps in terms of destroying the ring, but when you are travelling through the wilderness with secrecy as your greatest strength, then it is definitely a good thing to know what's edible and not, to know what creatures' behavioral patterns are (so that if they deviate too much, you will know SOMETHING odd is going on), and also to be able to hunt...

And it's not a situation where you are okay having just one guy (ie. Aragorn) who is capable of this stuff... when in the wild, the more that EVERYONE knows about survival skills, the better off your group is...

Now being a High Elf is all good and such, but you really need to realize that the very same properties of Glorfindel that terrified the Nazgul would make him stick out like a sore thumb to Sauron & Co....

Witness how quickly the Nazgul caught up with and assaulted Gandalf -- he was unable to conceal his presence from the Nazgul, and furthermore (even as a Maiar) was unable to withstand their might under the darkness of night (leading me to believe that they wouldn't have fled from Glorfindel during the witching hour)...

Anyhow -- the Glorfindel that killed the Balrog perished during the Fall of Gondolin. Now I understand that this Glorfindel is intended to be his reincarnation in some fashion or another... Now others will know more about this than I, but I believe that, just as in the Hindu concept of reincarnation, Tolkien's reincarnation did not mean that Glorfindel would necessarily have the same -physical- form (ie. maybe it's stronger, or not as strong, etc.etc.)

Since the Fellowship's sole hope was in SECRECY, I wouldn't take a mighty elf warrior who has been a burr in the forces of evil for 2000 years and whose mere presence would cause (in many situations) evil to quail and flee (thus, obviously, revealing the presence of that powerful good force, even if Glorfindel were not _physically_ detected)...

Besides, the Fellowship didn't exactly PLAN on going into Khazad-Dum and having Pippin stir up a Balrog -- they planned on making their way secretly to the Land of Mordor to destroy the Ring...

Now how Gandalf was planning on sneaking into Mordor we will never know. As it is, Frodo and Sam _DID NOT_ escape detection and if not for their somewhat spurious ability to appear 'orc-ish', would have certainly been captured by Sauron.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by baraka
I have read your various posts and i have to say that it has been quite entertaining and educational. I kind of tend to agree with Tyaronumen in that he says that Glorfindel is not better in all than Legolas, but myself i think that i prefer a High Elf like Glorfindel in my company instead of Pippin. If I was on the fellowship and i was Frodo, i would sleep better at night knowing that Pippin is safe in the Shire and I have Glorfindel to protect me.
He can take care of Balrogs!

Yes, well, I can certainly see how, if you had a Balrog's living in the walls of your house, you might consider Glorfindel a better exterminator than Pippin. However, what we're talking about here is a situation where the Free Peoples aren't even aware that any of the Valarauko are still around, much less that the Fellowship is going to **** one off...

The _known_ threat was hordes of orcs, Dunlendings, and Easterlings... against these, neither Glorfindel nor Pippin could have availed (hell -- Hurin tried to stand up against an army and failed only because he couldn't move around anymore amongst the bodies of all those he'd slain... eventually, the Fellowship would have the same problem, even if they were fighting a horde of hobbits. :) )

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ged
Tyaronumen,

For what it's worth, reading through this thread, I believe you are a true elf-friend. Glorfindel was a mighty and worthy elf, but if he HAD joined the fellowship the story would NOT have remained the same.

Thank you for your kind words, Ged. I believe that we are all related -- no matter whether your approach is scientific, religious, or based on Tolkien -- we are all the Children of the same thing (a singularity, Iluvatar, God, Allah, etc.)... I am a true friend to all of my relations as much as I am able. :)

[Harad]

Frodo and Sam _DID NOT_ escape detection and if not for their somewhat spurious ability to appear 'orc-ish', would have certainly been captured by Sauron.

***wading thru irrelevancies***

Glorfindel was not the reincarnation of Glorfindel. Glorfindel was Glorfindel according to JRRT (look it up).

Glorfindel managed to fight the Great Enemy and Sauron thruout the First Age and was so good at it that he was sent back East, the only one!, for the next Ages. Don't you think that an inability to be stealthy might have put a crimp on so illustrious a career? This ever-seeing Eye of Sauron that you are so worried about, missed his own Ring worn by Sam at Minas Morgul, missed Frodo wearing his own Ring at Amon Hen, despite the fact he had sent a company of Orcs to Parth Galen, and of course missed the entire Fellowship with Gandalf, the second most powerful person on Middle Earth, thru the entire FOTR.

The fact that F&S could pass as Orcs didnt seem to be a motivating principle in choosing Boromir, Aragorn, and Gandalf to be in the Company. The fact that Gandalf showed his power to save the lives of the Company was hardly a downside. Some might prefer someone who has no power to show, leaving the Company to die. Not me. The exact same reasoning applies to Glorfindel. If the "downside" of his saving lives in the Company is that he is revealed, I can live with that.

The number one job on Middle Earth for Good was to have the Quest succeed. Someone who brings more to the Fellowship, will in unknown ways, have more to contribute to the success. If your objection to Glorfindel is, "he is so good, he is bad," then leave Gandalf out too.

[baraka]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen


Yes, well, I can certainly see how, if you had a Balrog's living in the walls of your house, you might consider Glorfindel a better exterminator than Pippin. However, what we're talking about here is a situation where the Free Peoples aren't even aware that any of the Valarauko are still around, much less that the Fellowship is going to **** one off...

The _known_ threat was hordes of orcs, Dunlendings, and Easterlings... against these, neither Glorfindel nor Pippin could have availed (hell -- Hurin tried to stand up against an army and failed only because he couldn't move around anymore amongst the bodies of all those he'd slain... eventually, the Fellowship would have the same problem, even if they were fighting a horde of hobbits. :) )

It doesn´t matter if the Fellowship battled one or no balrog, Glorfindel would have been a better member than Pippin. (Would you really choose a hobbit over Glorfindel). I know that the strategy of the Fellowship was stealth, and what better than an elf. Sure that he was very powerful but i don´t think that him being there would have alerted Sauron. Isn´t Gandalf powerful also.
If you were on a quest of this magnitude, would you have chosen Pippin over Glorfindel. Hell, why not a fellowship of 9 hobbits then.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by baraka
Hell, why not a fellowship of 9 hobbits then.
Hmm, it may have been difficult to find 9 hobbits who were willing to leave the Shire. But I tend to agree with Harad here. And as I asked on the other thread, if you insist on bringing Pippin, why not bring both Pippin and Glorfindel?

[zoulou]

I personally don't see, granted I have the advantage of hindsight, what Glorfindels prescence really acheived. If Gandalf hadn't fallen, he would not have returned as Gandalf the White, more powerful than ever. Maybe he could have saved Boromir, but if he had then Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been captured by Orcs and thus rouse the Ents. In turn Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would not have ran into Eomer and the Rohirrim, remet Gandalf and led Theoden and his nights on to Helms gate. If the fellowship had been changed, events would not have turned out as they did, which somehow seemed to be exactly what was needed for the quest in whole to succeed.

[Snaga]

Being powerful doesn't mean you can't be stealthy. I posted this on another thread and it seems relevant again:

Hey I just found a bit more on Gandalf ssssneaking. Galadriel says she can't 'see' him unless he comes within the borders of her land.

quote:
"Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me."

Remember she can percieve the mind of Sauron as it affects the Elves, but Sauron can't percieve hers. So Gandalf truly is the international man of mystery if he is hidden even from her.

In other words Gandalf at least can hide himself.

Glorfindel's problem is those jingly-jangly bells he insists on having on his horse. You'd never sneak through Cirith Ungol with those tinkling away.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Being powerful doesn't mean you can't be stealthy. I posted this on another thread and it seems relevant again:



In other words Gandalf at least can hide himself.

Glorfindel's problem is those jingly-jangly bells he insists on having on his horse. You'd never sneak through Cirith Ungol with those tinkling away.




I beleive that Glorfindel would have been more handy in the fellowship. But who can judge hey they won?? If glorfindel went gandalf would have looked into the palantir and put the whole fellowship at stake. Although everything would have changed as i think Glorfindel and Gandalf could have managed the balrog and the 2 would have went with frodo and sam 2 mordor. But as Frodo went 2 cast the ring into mount doom. Could have glorfindel or gandalf had some effect of the ring and tired to take it by force. Otherwise i think it is good wondering what would have happened if this or if that happened. Good post.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Being powerful doesn't mean you can't be stealthy. I posted this on another thread and it seems relevant again:



In other words Gandalf at least can hide himself.

Glorfindel's problem is those jingly-jangly bells he insists on having on his horse. You'd never sneak through Cirith Ungol with those tinkling away.

VOK -- big difference between a Maiar who has the full grace of Manwe and Iluvatar, and a "mere" Calaquendi. :)

[Harad]

I just report the JRRT facts I dont make them up. Without having those books nearby, reincarnation means being reborn into another body, usually one that starts from a baby and grows up. This is not what JRRT said happened with Glorfindel.

Talk about ignoring posts. You missed the mention of the First 2 ages. I suppose that the Elves never had to use stealth in the continuing War against Morgoth, Sauron, etc. Always a frontal assault? You are welcome to believe that Legolas is more suited to success of the Fellowship than Glofindel would be. It would be nice to have reasons more than:

1. Glorfindel stood out like a sore thumb before Sauron and every other bad guy. Definitely, if true, an anti-survival characteristic. Evidence please, besides when Glorfindel revealed himself to fight the Nazgul--an excellent time to glow.

2. The much less experienced Legolas could sneak thru the woods better than Glorfindel. First, the Fellowship were never IN woods during their whole journey: eriador, hollin, dunland, moria, parth galen, mordor, rohan...Oh wait they were in Lorien--sure Legolas helped them ssssssneak thru Lorien.

Second, Mirkwood was a small portion of the woods that filled Middle Earth in earlier ages. Shirley, Glorfindel would have been an expert in the navigating the habitat he grew up in over the course of several ages.

[Nocturnal Rune]

Was it Merry, or Pippen who Gimli saved? Wow, I cant remember. Anyway, that was a big turning point, as insignificant is it may of seemed.

[Tyaronumen]

Harad -- I ended up deleting the message that you replied to (obviously not until you had already seen it though) because it became apparent to me very quickly after posting that we just aren't going to agree, which I'm definitely okay with, and I'd rather leave it at that since I won't be checking in these forums all weekend.

Good conversation, although you seem a little edgy and hostile for unknown reasons that I hope will resolve themselves before we chat again.

Cheers ;)

[Harad]

you seem a little edgy and hostile

and a smilie to you too.

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
VOK -- big difference between a Maiar who has the full grace of Manwe and Iluvatar, and a "mere" Calaquendi. :)

Thanks Ty, you are right of course. There are many differences, and also some similarities. If someone can post some evidence that Glorfindel shows up as a huge blip on the Barad-Dur radar that will show that this is indeed a difference!:)

On Glorfindel vs. Pippin, I think Pippins contribution is unquestionable (escaping from the Uruk-Hai, rousing the Ents, safely revealing the nature of the Palantir, saving Faramir from Denethor), and Glorfindel's MO is so different you can't see these things happening.

Glofindel vs. Legolas is more interesting because, arguably, Legolas is quite expendable from the Fellowship. He brings some useful qualities, but mostly they are generic elf qualities (shoots a mean arrow, sees well over distances, wafts lightly over fresh snow...). Neither he or Gimli take key actions that change the dynamic of the War as a whole. All 7 others do at some point. None of those 7 could be replaced IMHO

[Harad]

V of K,

An interesting sidelight of the Glorfindel for Legolas switch (the only one that makes sense, I agree) is that people questioned then, the possible comradeship between Glorfindel and Gimli. Somebody else pointed out that Glorfindel was a Noldo, traditionally compatible with Dwarfs, so that they might have made a great duo, with the tension brought about by their relative ages.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

I think we have to accept the wisdom of Gandalf on this issue. In Rivendell, Elrond says,

'And I will choose you companions to go with you... The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little save to arouse the power of Mordor.'

So, might of arms is not to be considered relevant.

'The Company of the Ring shall be Nine...'

Not a regiment. Why nine? Apparently for reasons beyond logic. It's the same as the number of Nazgul; and we must assume that Elrond's foresight tells him that's the right number.

Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf make three, leaving six places. All races are to be included, so there must be at least one Elf, Dwarf, and Man (apparently Ents and Huourns don't count). Aragorn is the representative of Men; Boromir is included because he's going that way anyhow. Gimli is handy, so he's the Dwarf. That leaves three, and one of them must be an Elf.

Legolas is added without explanation, other than that he (along with Gimli) is willing to go as far as the mountains, presumably on his way back to Mirkwood (though why he should go so far south is not clear).

That leaves two. Why not Glorfindel, indeed? It seems the Hobbits were added mostly at Gandalf's behest. He says,

'Even if you were to choose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, or open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'

In other words, Gandalf's foresight tells him that Merry and Pippin are more likely to be of help on the Quest than Glorfindel. And, of course, he's right.

There is still, certainly, the possibility of a substitution (Glorfindel for Legolas). It's fun to speculate on how that might have changed the outcome, but we can never really know. Would Gandalf have been able to overcome Saruman, or face down the Lord of the Ringwraiths, if he hadn't fallen in Moria? Good question... and unanswerable.

If we're going to speculate, how about this one? Dump Boromir, and put Glorfindel in his place. There's already a great Man in the company. Boromir has already given cause for concern during the Council of Elrond, expressing a desire to put the Ring to use as a weapon. He made it to Imladris on his own; he needs no help getting home (and he would be safer, besides, since the Ring attracts the Enemy). Send him south, through the Gap of Rohan, to bring counsel to his people; send the company east through Mirkwood and thence down the Anduin. Just an idea...

[Goro Shimura]

Choosing people that were devoted friends (such as Pippin and Merry) is the wiser thing to do when the ring is involved.

Friendship lessens to power of the ring's temptation...

And what if the company got in a bind and a powerful person like Glorfindle convinced himself that he "had" to weild the ring?

Weakness is superior to strength in this case. The fact of the ring turns "common sense" thinking upside down.

[Harad]

Why not go all the way and get the weakest characters available. Legolas was the son of a King. No telling what ideas he would get. Better to have a fellowship of Barliman Butturbar, Bill Feeny, Bob and Nob, Radagast, Odo Proudfoot and Fatty Bolger, Bombur, and a dead elf. No one would try to take over the Ring and they would stumble way way way below Sauron's radar.

[Bill the Pony]

Goroshimura has a point that you need the 'weakest person who is willing to go'. So the people you mention, Harad, are not an option, because they would turn around and go home at the first sign of trouble. But if you need the weakest person, then you should NOT include Gandalf and Aragorn, because, just like Glorfindel they could try to convince the company that they had to use the ring. (as Boromir did). On the third hand, maybe Elrond knew Aragorn and Gandalf well enough to know that would not happen, but he had his doubts about Glorfindel? On the fourth hand, Elrond must have had an inkling about Boromir after the council, and he still sent him, so then why not send Glorfindel as well?
Ok, I'll stop debating myself. Anyone have some more coherent thoughts?

[Goro Shimura]

But one more reason not to send more strong dudes than were allready sent:

The Enemy was at work on several fronts.

(I doubt that Glorfindal was idle during the War....)

How much material should a general throw away on a suicide mission?


Elrond chose just the right balance of Strength, arms, skills, knowledge, wisdom, and friendship.

AND IT WORKED!!!!

[Harad]

IT WORKED!!!!
Wow that Elrond was a genius. If he had chosen any weaker or any stronger Fellowship is wouldnt have worked. I know that for a fact because JRRT wrote alternative stories with weaker and stronger Fellowships and not one of the alternatives worked--Sauron won and turned ME into a house of pain.

Your argument is thus conclusive.

[Goro Shimura]

If Merry and Pippin hadn't gone...

1) The Captain of the ringwraiths would not have died.
2) The battle at Helm's deep would have gone very badly.
3) Frodo and Sam would have probably been taken to Orthanc.
4) Faramir would have died.
5) Aragorn would not have taken the Paths of the dead...

and Gondor would have been obliterated very quickly.


Elrond WAS correct in the final decision.

4 extraordinary hobbits was definitly the way to go.

[Kraas]

A Dwarf was included because this was a journey of some 2000 miles, and Dwarves are the toughest and hardiest of the Speaking-Peoples. Plus, it was much harder to enslave their wills; that's why Sauron was eager to recover the Seven, and also why there are no Wraiths for those Rings. Dwarves would probably have to wear those Rings for much longer than an Elf or Man (or Hobbit!) to become a Wraith and completely under Sauron's control.

My source: the RotK Appendix, talking about the House of Durin in Appendix...A, is it?

[Harad]

First off, you cant conclude anything by saying X or Y or Z wouldnt have happened, since a different Fellowship means a different story unfolds. JRRT I am sure would have been up to the task of getting from point A to point B using different characters and different situations.

I agree with all the many who said that the hobbits should have gone for various reasons, and the dwarf (Gimli), and the men, and the Maia (Gandalf). I just believe that the simple Elf-for-Elf substitution, Glorfindel for Legolas, was logical in terms of success for the Fellowship on the basis of plusses and minuses. But it was not in the best interests of the story. Glorfindel was too powerful a character to fit in with the rest of the narrative.

[Snaga]

Why not get rid of Legolas (who Elrond doesn't know well enough to judge his character) and the clearly dodgy Boromir, and put in Elladan or Elrohir as half-elven in a two for the price of one spectacular. That would leave room for Bilbo to come too. He was the first to volunteer after all, and if you're trusting to friendship...

After all if 4 for hobbits is better than 2, then 5 is better than 4. Ok Bilbo has some previous with the ring that might be an issue but its worth the risk.

In fact, taking this to the logical conclusion, Gandalf should have got about 50 groups of decoy hobbits roaming around in Middle Earth. That would have been a master-stroke

[Goro Shimura]

Elrond and Gandalf were very wise. I'm not going to argue with THEM! They certainly knew more about their situation and resources than any of us.

I'm gald Mr Harad and Mr. Variag weren't at the Council of Elrond-- definitely would have ruined the occasion-- and the book!! (At any rate, sarcasm seems to conflict with the general tone of the work....)

[Harad]

(At any rate, sarcasm seems to conflict with the general tone of the work....)

Can we really trust someone who uses the Ring?

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Elrond and Gandalf were very wise. I'm not going to argue with THEM! They certainly knew more about their situation and resources than any of us.

I'm gald Mr Harad and Mr. Variag weren't at the Council of Elrond-- definitely would have ruined the occasion-- and the book!! (At any rate, sarcasm seems to conflict with the general tone of the work....)

Goroshimura, given that the Fellowship was a roaring success when all's said and done, any suggestion that any change to its composition would be possible is clearly foolish. You pointed that out and its clearly beyond refute that Gandalf and Elrond were right. You are benefitting from hindsight! If we all post in that vein this thread would die very quickly.

Anyway, as for sarcasm in LotR I give you:
- Gandalf to Pippin: 'Then you shall certainly not be chosen'
- Aragorn to Merry: 'If you think that I've come through battle and war to look for the pack of a careless soldier...'

Not exact quotes, but the great ones were more than happy to aim a bit of sarcasm at the poor defenseless hobbits!

[Goro Shimura]

Anyway, as for sarcasm in LotR I give you:
- Gandalf to Pippin: 'Then you shall certainly not be chosen'
- Aragorn to Merry: 'If you think that I've come through battle and war to look for the pack of a careless soldier...'



I'm not so sure that your quotes are really all that sarcastic-- at least in the sneering derogatory tone that I'm used to.

However I did find something rather sarcastic in Saruman's words to Gandalf that were reported at the council:

"Oh... Gandalf needs help aye? Well! Since when did Mr. smarty-pants know-it-all busybody ever need help from anybody-- especially from the superior of his order. Gandalf... needing my help. Hrumph!"

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Harad
Why not go all the way and get the weakest characters available. Legolas was the son of a King. No telling what ideas he would get. Better to have a fellowship of Barliman Butturbar, Bill Feeny, Bob and Nob, Radagast, Odo Proudfoot and Fatty Bolger, Bombur, and a dead elf. No one would try to take over the Ring and they would stumble way way way below Sauron's radar.

Maybe if all of the members of the Fellowship had been this weak, then the wise would've thought of Gwaihir and the Eagle Express to Mordor a lot sooner. :)

[baraka]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
After all if 4 for hobbits is better than 2, then 5 is better than 4. Ok Bilbo has some previous with the ring that might be an issue but its worth the risk.

In fact, taking this to the logical conclusion, Gandalf should have got about 50 groups of decoy hobbits roaming around in Middle Earth. That would have been a master-stroke

I totally agree with the groups of decoy hobbits moving about in ME.

If 5 hobbits are better than 4, then why not use 9 hobbits instead and made a Fellowship of Hobbits.

[Snaga]

Interesting to note that at an early stage in the development of LotR the composition of the Fellowship was going to include Erestor instead of Pippin. But JRRT rejected this idea.

Then in another rejected passage he has Elrond say:The elf-lords I may not send, for though their power is great it is not great enough. They cannot walk unhidden from wrath and spirit of evil, and news of the Company would reach Mordor by day or night.

The fact that this was rejected means it doesn't prove the case that Glorfindel would show up on the Barad-Dur radar, but it makes it seem more likely that this was in JRRT's mind.

[Ged]

Goroshimura,

I agree with you.

Harad has completely missed the point.

It needed "innocents" such as the hobbits to complete such a task.

Anybody "wiser" or "stronger" would more likely have failed.

This is the WHOLE BASIS of the books!

Harad! Deny this at your peril!

[Harad]

Hah! It it too laugh, harshly.

The Fellowship contained four hobbits, not nine.

[Ged]

Goroshimura said:

If Merry and Pippin hadn't gone...

1) The Captain of the ringwraiths would not have died.
2) The battle at Helm's deep would have gone very badly.
3) Frodo and Sam would have probably been taken to Orthanc.
4) Faramir would have died.
5) Aragorn would not have taken the Paths of the dead...

Harad, logically the hobbits were clearly not suited to the task of delivering a magic ring to the heart of Sauron's kingdom. But actually the fact that they did so is the whole point of the book...

Not only did Sauron not anticipate hobbits doing such a thing, but the hobbits had an inner defense against the attractions and subterfuges of the ring: their innocence!

This is really the heart of the LoTR story.

[Harad]

But of course, hobbits are at the heart of LOTR. Frodo is the hero, for heavens sake. Still, the Fellowship was a collective effort.

If you care to read what I said rather than just disagreeing with me, you will find that I never said any of the hobbits should be replaced. The other members of the Fellowship were reasonably powerful, including Gandalf, THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL BEING ON MIDDLE EARTH. Therefore my argument for the substitution of Glorfindel for Legolas on purely sensible, but non-literary grounds, is valid. However on literary grounds, Glorfindel is too powerful a being--he came back from the dead, he killed a balrog, he scares the Nazgul--to become a member of the Fellowship without damaging the rest of the story.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Harad
But of course, hobbits are at the heart of LOTR. Frodo is the hero, for heavens sake. Still, the Fellowship was a collective effort.

If you care to read what I said rather than just disagreeing with me, you will find that I never said any of the hobbits should be replaced. The other members of the Fellowship were reasonably powerful, including Gandalf, THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL BEING ON MIDDLE EARTH. Therefore my argument for the substitution of Glorfindel for Legolas on purely sensible, but non-literary grounds, is valid. However on literary grounds, Glorfindel is too powerful a being--he came back from the dead, he killed a balrog, he scares the Nazgul--to become a member of the Fellowship without damaging the rest of the story. Let me get this straight Harad. Glorfindal is too weak of a character to be included in the movie but too powerful a character to be included in the Fellowship. What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is a goin on here???

[Harad]

I will try to simplify the concept further:

Glorfindel is a weak literary character. Why? Because his attributes--the only Elf who returned from the dead to ME, balrog killer, terrorizer of Nazgul-- make him so seemingly strong that the author could not fit him into the story except in a cameo role. Otherwise he would have skewed the story in directions the author did not want to go. Hence Glorfindel sat out the War of the Ring in Rivendell instead of joining the Fellowship.

Since he was a minor [B]and[B/] weak literary character, he was replaced in the movie by a composite character--a composite of Arwen and Glorfindel in terms of actions and attributes.

[Goro Shimura]

It needed "innocents" such as the hobbits to complete such a task.

Anybody "wiser" or "stronger" would more likely have failed.

This is the WHOLE BASIS of the books!

Harad! Deny this at your peril!

Thanks Ged...

Harad, you seem to be changing the subject to "Why Legalos instead of Glorfindle!"

I think that it was very important for Pippin to be a part of the Qwest-- for fundamental sorts of thematic reasons that go way beyond the requirements of plot and drama. Pippin's role can be sacrificed only if you want to reduce the essence of LotR to just another action-adventure type movie with the depth of Terminator II.

[pippin le qer]

Harad. I couldn't agree more with your contribution that Glorfindel is a literary weakness, He may be strong and shiny, but he is as beatiful insect set in amber. He doesn't evolve to anything anymore.

[Grond]

Originally posted by pippin le qer
Harad. I couldn't agree more with your contribution that Glorfindel is a literary weakness, He may be strong and shiny, but he is as beatiful insect set in amber. He doesn't evolve to anything anymore. Why pick on Glorfindel? Literature is full of characters that "may be strong and shiny, but are as as a beatiful insect set in amber. They don't evolve to anything anymore."

[Harad]

Originally posted by pippin le qer
Harad. I couldn't agree more with your contribution that Glorfindel is a literary weakness, He may be strong and shiny, but he is as beatiful insect set in amber. He doesn't evolve to anything anymore.

Thanks, pippin le qer,

You've proven that I AM speaking English, and at least someone out there understands what I am saying (Come to think of it, PRH got it too).

Harad, you seem to be changing the subject to "Why Legalos instead of Glorfindle!"

Goro:
I apologize for being the first person on this forum to stray (slightly in this case) from the subject matter of a thread. If you check my post I said that replacing Pippin would be a BAD idea, but that if you wanted a good idea for replacement, try Glorfindel for Legolas. Again profuse apologies for my faux pas.

[Goro Shimura]

Didn't mean to provoke another round of sarcastic remarks....

I'm not sure what the problem is.

[Snaga]

Yes - a bit late in the day to start pulling everyone up for slightly straying from the original theme! I think by now we are able to debate any and every member of the Fellowship. I think I'll post up my thoughts so far:

The evidence that Pippin's inclusion was the right choice is very strong and has been posted a few times. If there is one thing that could be said, it is that they are all with the benefit of hindsight. It is worth looking at Elrond and Gandalf's rationale:

- Frodo is ring-bearer, and accepts the burden/quest
- Sam is his servant/friend and will not be seperated
- Gandalf, as chief mover and shaker on the side of good
- Aragorn, as his fate is bound up with the ring, and he is going to Minas Tirith and therefore most of the way
- Boromir, also going most of the way
- Gimli - represents the dwarves and will go some of the way (to the other side of the Misties)
- Legolas - represents the elves and likewise is going across the Misties
- Merry and Pippin because they are trusting to friendship more than strength, because noone is strong enough.

(1) Is this a strategy of picking the weakest possible team? (Some sort of reverse logic act of faith?) Well not really - you have some of the most powerful people available. Frodo is weak, but given some meaty back-up!
(2) But is it a case of getting the strongest team possible? Clearly not that either. The number (9) is chosen by intuition, knowing secrecy is the only hope.
(3) How important is representation? Well it is up to a point. That dictates Gimli (assuming Gloin is too long in the tooth). But there are still plenty of elves to choose between, and more hobbits and men than strictly needed.
(4) What other factors are there? Well there appear to be plenty of fellow-travellers, who are not committed to going to Mt Doom (I count 4 - you can only say that the 4 hobbits are unequivocal, Gandalf isn't explicit but I assume he was going that way). There is a sense of providence being more important than design. But it also bears on the purpose of the Fellowship (see below).
(5) Would an elf-lord be unable to act in secrecy? This is inconclusive to my mind. Frodo sees Glorfindel glowing at the Ford when he is on the verge of Wraith-space, but Glorfindel has 'revealed himself in his wrath'. We don't really know. Its a moot point, because Gandalf counsels friendship over power.
(6) Why is friendship more important than power/strength? This is not spelt out by Gandalf. But the fate of Boromir must be a clue. Even faithful Sam is tempted by the ring (Samwise the Strong, hero of the age!), so what would have happened to others? You can imagine an elf lord, looking at the pitiful state of Frodo as he crawled through Mordor, convincing themselves that they must take the ring out of pity.
(7) So what was the Fellowship really all about. Turning to HoME to reference the early versions of the Ring Goes South chapter, we find material that is much more explicit that the whole fellowship were intended to go to Minas Tirith by Elrond. This material doesn't make the final published version, but it gives you a sense of the objectives of the Fellowship. It was intended to get Frodo to within sight of Mordor, not to go the whole way, and to get him there in secret. In the final version, this means Lorien rather than Minas Tirith, and Gandalf and Aragorn never discuss plans after Lorien. Further to this, Elrond does not make anyone pledge to go further than they wish.
(8) But does creating your final group to enter Mordor become easier as you get nearer? Whether the decision is made at Lorien, Parth Galen or even had it been made in Minas Tirith, it would still have been fraught. But here's the killer: just as you can't really see Glorfindel making the final team, Merry and Pippin look just as unlikely.

My conclusion is that you can't explain this logically. You just have to accept it worked!

[Harad]

(5) Would an elf-lord be unable to act in secrecy? This is inconclusive to my mind. Frodo sees Glorfindel glowing at the Ford when he is on the verge of Wraith-space, but Glorfindel has 'revealed himself in his wrath'. We don't really know. Its a moot point, because Gandalf counsels friendship over power.

What does "friendship over power" have to do with Legolas over Glorfindel. Glorfindel has "power" but does Legolas have "friendship"? With whom?


This comment:

Harad, you seem to be changing the subject to "Why Legalos instead of Glorfindle!"

leads to this comment:

I'm not sure what the problem is.

Here's a what if: what would have happened if the first comment had been left out?

[Goro Shimura]

Thanks for the summary, VK.

[Goro Shimura]

Harad,

I'm sorry if I've said something stupid or annoying.

I'm not intentionally trying to bother you, so please accept my apologies.


Sincerely,

Goro

[pippin le qer]

Grond, litature full with shiny characters set in amber is mosttime pretty boring, in plain English they are called "cardboard characters"
and Pippin in the Lotr had more character in one sentence
than whole Glorfindel during the Silmarillion. Even Legolas is rather flat compaired the other members of the fellowship. All he does is supporting Aragorn in his development and breaching an eonwide gap between dwarves and elves, but that's not what the trilogy is about. By the way how the heck should a guy like Glorfindel get lost in Fangorn and awake the Ents, he probely just ordered them around or talked to them so formal and respectful that they fell asleep again

[Strider97]

Harad,

You assert that the Glorfindle that perished with the Balrog is the same Glorfindle, Elrond's son. It has been a while but I thought I remember a comment either by CT or in a letter by JRRT that the names were inadvertently repeated because of the different time frames in which the sections had been written and that Tolkien chose not to correct the duplication but to leave it as it was. Can you cite a source that the two are the same. I am not questioning your assertion but this half remembered fact from several years ago resurfaced when I read your post. Thanks, Strider97.

PS I did not say in the other thread I was judging you but simply the debate points. Also that ambiguous quote came from one of your post. Hail Harad.

[Harad]

Of course the debate about Glorfindel went on and on. I dont have my copies, but I believe, after backing and forthing, in the end (based upon a Letter?) JRRT said they were the same guy. He didnt, of course, have the opportunity to do anything about it, since LOTR was already written. Say how about a novel of the Second Age starring....Glorfindel!

I dont mind being the heroic Isildur --in the "Gladden Fields Disaster" it says that his saving the Ring from the Orcs was THE battle that won the War of the Rings. I just dont wanna be the Isildur who stuck his father to get at the Precious.

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by Ged
Goroshimura,

I agree with you.

Harad has completely missed the point.

It needed "innocents" such as the hobbits to complete such a task.

Anybody "wiser" or "stronger" would more likely have failed.

This is the WHOLE BASIS of the books!

Harad! Deny this at your peril!

man, i have been going blue trying to get this thru Harad's thick head! if he missed this then harads just mised the whole story as anything but a simple adventure story:D

this is the major theme of the book, "where the great and wise fail, the small and weak will succeed" (paraphrasing gandalf)

elrond at the Council: "this task is appointed for you frodo, this is the time for the shire. If you dont find a way, noone will"

the whole book is about little people doing big deeds!

[Snaga]

Lilhobo if you actually read the thread you would realise that Harad has not posted once to say anything that suggests Glorfindel should replace Pippin. In fact even reading a few recent posts subsequent to the Ged one you quote would show that Ged's misunderstanding of Harad was corrected. If you are blue in the face, try taking some deep breaths!
Originally posted by Harad
What does "friendship over power" have to do with Legolas over Glorfindel. Glorfindel has "power" but does Legolas have "friendship"? With whom? Nothing at all, because Elrond has already picked Legolas on the basis that he's going the same way. Its not a logical way to decide who's on the team but 3 or 4 get picked like this.

[baraka]

This tread has moved from it's original intention. (cool) Back to the point.

If you were Elrond, and have no idea what is going to happen next, would you really choose a "distracted" hobbit such as Pippin over Glorfindel. I would not.

[legolas23]

Elrond needed someone whos behavior could be shaped to suit the ways necessary for survival and success of the fellowship. He may have recognized that although Glorfindel was a more powerful elf than legolas, he was also more experienced and had developed his own ideas of how to handle certain situations- he was more apt to use force than legolas was and it was secrecy not power that the fellowship needed. Also, Glorfindel seems more of a risk to try to wield the ring than Legolas. Glorfindel, though probably very wise, might see it, as boromir did, as a weapon that could save not only the fellowship but all on M.E. from Sauron. He seems like he would be more tempted in times of despair than the fun-loving legolas who was impressionable. Legolas, as well as Gimli, was an unwavering friend who provided a constant feeling of trust in the fellowship. I think Elrond felt that a helpful Elf who was no threat to take the ring and was not as prominent a character as the other members yet added to the sense of family among the group was more inportant than a stronger Glorfindel who may have had his own plans (as Boromir did) and may have vied for leadership of the fellowship. I think Elrond realized only one prominent leader was necessary and present in Gandalf. Also, for example someone like Legolas, who followed Aragorn through the paths of the dead based solely on blind faith was a more necessary component to the fellowship than the strength on Glorfindel.

[Harad]

Originally posted by legolas23
Elrond needed someone whos behavior could be shaped to suit the ways necessary for survival and success of the fellowship.

To say that Glorfindel, a High Elf that had succeeded in the First and Second Ages, when Elves were Elves, was not "suit[ed] for the ways necessary for survival" can not be supported.

he was also more experienced and had developed his own ideas of how to handle certain situations

These are usually positive attributes in missions that require intelligence and not brute force


- he was more apt to use force than legolas was

This is a High Elf who had survived the realm of Morgoth in the secret city of Gondolin. What evidence is there that he was more apt to use force. Quite the contrary a "young" wood elf like Legolas would have been more apt to be "rash."


and it was secrecy not power that the fellowship needed.

See above regarding the secret city of Gondolin.

Also, Glorfindel seems more of a risk to try to wield the ring than Legolas. Glorfindel, though probably very wise, might see it, as boromir did, as a weapon that could save not only the fellowship but all on M.E. from Sauron.

Again, just a manufactured problem. Glorfindel was an Elf, not a man. There is absolutely no evidence than any Elves would succumb to lust for the One Ring, quite the contrary as Elrond and Galadriel explicitly sent it away.

I think Elrond realized only one prominent leader was necessary and present in Gandalf.

Make that two prominent leaders: Gandalf and Aragorn. Make that 3 prominent leader, with Boromir, Son of the Steward of Gondor. Make that 4 prominent leaders with Legolas Son of The King of Woodelves. Glorfindel was the leader of what?


Also, for example someone like Legolas, who followed Aragorn through the paths of the dead based solely on blind faith was a more necessary component to the fellowship than the strength on Glorfindel.

Again, why such negative suppositions about the great Glorfindel? What evidence that he would not be a loyal member of a party?

Legolas was not the friend of anybody on the Fellowship to any extent greater than Glorfindel, so if you trust to friendship, that does not exclude Glorfindel.

[legolas23]

I don't mean to say that Glorfindel would have done anything that I said he might I was just saying that maybe Elrond saw the advantage of innocence and inexperience (which is ironic that inexperience could be desired over centuries of experience in such a huge mission) over the use of someone who had already lived through enough times to have their own opinions on whats right for the mission at any given time- I think maybe I looked downly on Glorfindel too much based on the other posts here- maybe- but I think Legolas was the better choice for his stability and willingness to abide by the decisions made by the fellowship and his leader. Im not saying Glorfindel wouldnt have done the same just there may have been more of a risk in it- As for the one leader- it clearly is only Gandalf because even Aragorn follows his council and would have continued to (and even tries to see what Gandlaf would have done had he not fallen in Moria). Aragorn only really leads after Moria and Boromir never really leads though he tries to persuade the ringbearer to follow him- which could have been a risk with Glorfindel. I agree that elves are much different from men- but even Galadriel had trouble resisting the ring- maybe Elrond recognized that Glorfindel to would have trouble where Legolas would not? Its just a possible reason why.

[legolas23]

Also, im not saying Glorfindel wouldnt have followed Aragorn throughout his travels but its possible he may have not hunted for the orcs who captured 2 hobbits or have followed through the paths of the dead- I think maybe Tolkein- as he showed that even the smallest people make the biggest differences in the hobbits- maybe he was showing that even the youngest- as Legolas is a relatively young elf - can achieve greatness through unhindered bravery. I wasnt saying that Glorfindel wouldnt be loyal just that maybe his priorities would have differed and with his prominence he may have been at odds with the others- i mean I'm just trying to think up other possibilities for why he wasnt substituted for legolas.

[Harad]

Legolas23: Welcome and you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

IMO Glorfindel was not chosen because the story would have been inferior with him, since he brought too much power to the Fellowship. Glorfindel is never heard from again after the CoE, for the same reason. He is a First Age Elf in the Third Age. Doesnt really belong. I dont believe any of the rationalizations that other have given are convincing.

[baraka]

IMO Glorfindel was not chosen because the story would have been inferior with him, since he brought too much power to the Fellowship.

I don´t necessarily think that the story would have been inferior. JRRT was a great writer and i think that he would have made a wonderful story with Glor. in the Fellowship. The fact that JRRT didn´t put him in the Fellowship does not prove that.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Glorfindel is never heard from again after the CoE, for the same reason. He is a First Age Elf in the Third Age. Doesnt really belong. I dont believe any of the rationalizations that other have given are convincing. [/B][/QUOTE]
You could say that he didn´t belong, but in the other hand you could say that he really cared much for ME that he returned again, unlike the other Elves. Again we needed the opinion of JRRT to answer that point, every other rationalizations are mere speculation.

[Snaga]

Hey, but speculation is great fun. And without the whole forum would have to pack up and go home!:D

legolas23, Welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy it here.

Your thoughts are interesting and thought-provoking, in the area of leadership. Gandalf and Aragorn's relationship is interesting throughout the book. The fact that they try the Caradhras route over the Misty Mts shows from the outset that Gandalf, although the leader, is not an autocrat unwilling to accept discussion and disagreement. And Aragorn is the main person he shares his thoughts with (though this is done less frequently than might be desirable - so Aragorn has no plan after Lorien).

There are other members of the fellowship who might be thought to have some leadership qualities. Boromir is clearly one, but his qualities suit leading men in fighting the enemy, and not leading a quest such as this: his advice is rarely heeded! Legolas and Gimli are loyal followers through out. Sam and Pippin are the junior hobbits as a rule. Sam is definitely Frodo's servant, but Merry is probably as close to Frodo's equal as any. He plays an important organising role in Book 1, and is more prepared than Sam and Pippin in that he consults maps at Rivendell etc., and generally knows what's going on. Frodo himself is Ringbearer, and therefore ultimately could assert his authority at any time. In practice he doesn't do so, but his view is actively sought when deciding whether to go through Moria.

In this context replacing either Legolas or Pippin is to replace someone who does not play any leadership role. Glorfindel's experience and power would clearly affect the dynamics: he would not be a follower. However I doubt he would threaten Gandalf's position. Gandalf is Elrond's equal in authority, Glorfindel is not. Elrond's nomination of Gandalf first (after Frodo and Sam) affirms his status, if any affirmation were required. But Aragorn's position as no.2 would possibly change. In the Flight to the Ford, Glorfindel takes over from Aragorn more or less, and its possible to envisage similar amongst the Fellowship. However, neither are excessively proud it appears, so you would expect most of the Fellowship to adapt. Boromir, as the leader ignored, would react most strongly I feel. On the one hand he would move further down in the rankings so to speak, on the other hand Aragorn who he plays second fiddle to in the book would have less status as a result of Glorfindel's presence. So Boromir's rivalry with Aragorn would surface earlier, and through this so too his lust for the ring.

So there's another load of unsubstantiated speculation!

[legolas23]

thanks- im sure i will

I wasn't saying that Glorfindel would go against the fellowship nor that hed be any less loyal then Legolas. I was just speculating that since he is more experienced and is more powerful and has seen more in the world than Legolas, he might form his own ideas on what routes or courses of action are best for the fellowship (especially after Gandalf's dissappearance- though Elrond couldn't have known that would occur). As you stated maybe Aragorn would fall out of the number 2 spot. I think Elrond wanted as little in-fighting as possible and wanted a clear chain of command. From Gandalf to Aragorn to Boromir (because after all Aragorn is Boromir's king) As you stated, if Glorfindel were involved this chain of command wouldn't be clear cut. Maybe, since Legolas was present at the prison where gollum was kept and may have known him- maybe they wanted him to go along because Gandalf foresaw that Gollum may again play a part. I mean thats pretty far out there as far as speculation goes but I'm just trying to come up with ideas.

[Harad]

Originally posted by baraka
You could say that he didn´t belong, but in the other hand you could say that he really cared much for ME that he returned again, unlike the other Elves.

Sorry I am not making myself clear. I am not saying that Glorfindel as a personality didnt belong. But, what I mean is fitting into the scope of the Third Age. It would be as if Turin Turambar and Fingolfin were hanging around Rivendell. They wouldnt fit in to the Fellowship either. Things are scaled down from what they were, like Sauron is scaled down from Morgoth.

[baraka]

Originally posted by Harad
Sorry I am not making myself clear. I am not saying that Glorfindel as a personality didnt belong. But, what I mean is fitting into the scope of the Third Age. It would be as if Turin Turambar and Fingolfin were hanging around Rivendell. They wouldnt fit in to the Fellowship either. Things are scaled down from what they were, like Sauron is scaled down from Morgoth.

Ok, now I get it.

[FrodetteBaggins]

All I can say is.....if Pippin was left behind, who would provide the humour?

[Harad]

Merry

[Snaga]

Merry's not that funny really. Try Sam.

[Harad]

I always found Merry to be Merry.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad
I always found Merry to be Merry.



What about legolas?? Who knows eh??

[Harad]

lol gas, e?

[FrodetteBaggins]

Originally posted by Harad
I always found Merry to be Merry.



Yes but Merry isn't the same without Pippin. They are a double act!! No Pippin, no hunour. And you gotta admit that Pippin is funnier.

[Harad]

They are kind of like Laurel (Pippen) and Hardy (Merry):

Merry: Here's another fine mess you've gotten me into.

Pippen: Well I never thought the Balrog would get mad when I stepped on his whip [starts sobbing]

[FrodetteBaggins]

Yeah that's what I was trying to say! But Merry always seems more responsible.....dunno why..

[Snaga]

But Pippin doesn't need Merry to be funny. For example the bits in the Shire when he:
(1) Gets Sam worried by pretending to demand hot water
(2) Threatens to eat Frodo's share of breakfast

Or later at Minas Tirith, when he winds up Bergil by telling him he's going to stand him on his head! Even Denethor spots his comic potential, and tries to get some entertainment. Unusually, Pippin gets stage fright... shame: a bit of light entertainment might have been the difference between life and death for Lord Misery of Gondor.

Merry by contrast, when left on his tod in Rohan, says he feels like a sack of potatoes.

Merry is the 'straight man' - not much good without a comedian!

[Harad]

So. Now downgrading "straight men"?

Where would Curley be w/o Moe?
Where would Costello be w/o Abbot?
Where would Snaga be w/o Shagrat?

[pippin le qer]

Snaga?
did I miss something?

[Harad]

Sure. Who can forget this hilarious "Who's on First?"-like routine from the Big Room at the Tower.

- You won't go again, you say? Curse you, Snaga, you little maggot! If you think I'm so damaged that it's safe to flout me, you're mistaken. Come here, and I'll squeeze your eyes out, like I did to Radbug just now. And when some new lads come, I'll deal with you: I'll send you to Shelob.
- They won't come, not before you're dead anyway, - answered Snaga surlily. - I've told you twice that Gorbag's swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot. I saw it from a window, I tell you. And they were the last.
- Then you must go. I must stay here anyway. But I'm hurt. The Black Pits take that filthy rebel Gorbag! - Shagrat's voice trailed off into a
string of foul names and curses. - I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him. You must go, or I'll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we'll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won't escape by skulking here.
- I'm not going down those stairs again, - growled Snaga, - be you captain or no. Nar! Keep your hands off your knife, or I'll put an arrow in
your guts. You won't be a captain long when They hear about all these goings-on. I've fought for the Tower against those stinking Morgul-rats, but a nice mess you two precious captains have made of things, fighting over the swag.
- That's enough from you, - snarled Shagrat. - I had my orders. It was Gorbag started it, trying to pinch that pretty shirt.
- Well, you put his back up, being so high and mighty. And he had more sense than you anyway. He told you more than once that the most dangerous of these spies was still loose, and you wouldn't listen. And you won't listen now. Gorbag was right, I tell you. There's a great fighter about, one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy tarks. He's coming here, I tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers, and that's tark's work. He's on the stairs. And until he's off them, I'm not going down. Not if you were a Nazgul, I wouldn't.
- So that's it, is it? - yelled Shagrat. - You'll do this, and you'll not do that? And when he does come, you'll bolt and leave me? No, you won't! I'll put red maggot-holes in your belly first.

[Goro Shimura]

Sanity Clause?

There is no Sanity Clause!!!

[baraka]

I wonder, why would they choose Pippin instead of Glorfindel for the Fellowship. :confused: